Mac versus PC

[8x10 user]

I have had a really bad experience with apple's G5 quad core computer and it has turned me into a hardcore PC enthusiast. I don't know why people buy mac computers. They are overpriced and you can build a much higher quality PC on your own. I know there are a lot of Mac users in this forum and I just don't get it. What is so great about a mac?

Inside it is just a regular nothing special PC, at best it is only slightly better then the very worse prebuilt PC's. There are much much better parts out there to build your own PC, and some companies actually sell prebuilt PC's with top tier parts.

For example there are dozens of companies always competing to produce the best possible cooling systems. Every year new innovative CPU coolers are brought to the market that surpass last years best. There are plenty of review sites that show actual benchmarks proving which CPU cooler is the best. It is said that a reduction of 1 degree Celsius increases the life of a CPU by 10%. Wouldn't you want the most efficient highest quality CPU cooler in your system? The stuff apple uses is no where near competitive with whats on the market. Why use a stock CPU cooler when a high end one might run your system 20 degrees cooler?

I just don't get it. Is it that the buyers of apple computers just don't know better or that they don't want to do any research into quality PC options?

[brianam]

yikes, if there was ever a message that merits the "Don't feed the trolls!" reply, this might be it.

but to actually reply to this (shouldn't, i know) : It's the OS, it's not about the hardware.

[Darin Boville]

To turn the topic a little (maybe into more interesting territory) even Microsoft has realized that there isn't and isn't going to be much innovation in the PC-world. If it wants to survive in the long term it needs to have its own hardware (thus the new tablet). Which raises the question, what are the top five technical innovations from the top PC makers, in the last ten years? I'm blanking...

--Darin

[jp]

I've got an IT related business that has lots of computers. We never suffer computer failure because the CPU wasn't cool enough with the factory cooling. Doesn't happen (statistically speaking) The mad CPU cooling craze is largely for overclocking hobbyist/gamer people; and yes, if you use the processor in a manner beyond what's it's intended, you will need extra cooling and risk the longevity of the machine. Computers do fail or exhibit problems when a cooling system gets clogged with dust or animal hair, but that is usually fixed with an air compressor cleaning.

Some people like their macs and will keeping buying them, even at a premium price. It's called brand loyalty. I'm kinda agnostic and use linux, windows, and mac. Mac has a good operating system for internet security that is worth a slight premium over microsoft. I would not dare let a kid (or morally loose adult) recreationally surf the Internet with Windows and all the spyware from "free game" sites, adult sites, etc.. and accidently landing on those sorts of sites. Mac or LInux would be far safer for those Internet unknowns. My home windows computer is used for photo editing/management and that only.

[Frank Petronio]

The Mac hardware has always been pleasingly designed and simple to integrate compared to a PC. And the OS is also easier to set-up and maintain. Mac apps are more consistent, and usually more stable. The user interface is nicer, even to the fonts, although Windows has come a long way from the old days. As a graphic designer it is really hard to forgive them for Arial....

Go look at laptops. None are as clean and tightly built as a MacBook Pro or Air, at any price.

Sure if you are an experienced PC user who likes building computers then great, go for it. But for a lot of us, it is worth a few bucks more not to build computers and to have everything pretty well specced and matched at a fair price. How much is your time worth? More than any price differential I hope!

Same for the OS, on the Mac they've tested and considered it far deeper than Windows, and if you watch an experienced Mac user with a reasonable system, they can fly through stuff at least as fast or better than a similarly experienced PC user with a system of the same value.

From quality fonts, Postscript printing, optical drives, color profiling, dual monitor support, etc. most of the tools we depend on originated on the Mac.

[Light Guru]

Like has been said its the OS. OS X is so much more intuitive to use. in addition to that a lot of people like to have one place to go to for support. Being able to get face to face tech support for your hardware and software at Apples Genius Bar is HUGE for a lot of people. And on top of that Apples customer service has been ranked incredibly high for years.

Besides most people out there don't want to "build" a computer they just want to buy and use one.

[8x10 user]

The hardware available for PC's was so much better that apple dumped IBM and started using mainstream PC components. All of the upgrades to Apples lines of computers are a result of advancing PC technology.

I'm sure I am missing a lot but here are a few innovations that PC's have brought us.

The invention of the tablet PC
PCI express 3.0
DDR3
Trim for SSD drives
Vapor chamber cooled video cards
USB 3.0
AMD bulldozer
Much better CPU coolers
Power caching in power supplies
All improvements to x86 and 64 bit CPU's
SLI video card's
iodrive from fusion io
E-sata
USB drives
open GL / CL
CUDA
OCZ's HSDL




To turn the topic a little (maybe into more interesting territory) even Microsoft has realized that there isn't and isn't going to be much innovation in the PC-world. If it wants to survive in the long term it needs to have its own hardware (thus the new tablet). Which raises the question, what are the top five technical innovations from the top PC makers, in the last ten years? I'm blanking...

--Darin

[Bob Salomon]

So what you are really doing with this thread is trying to justify the custom PC you are trying to sell?
Right?

[welly]

Mac vs PC? Are we really going to do this? Please don't.

[Preston]

If you put the same quality components in two computers, maintain the OS, drivers and software, and run the machine within stated temperature and humidity specs, the only real difference is one's comfort level with the user interface.

Some folks like Hydrox cookies, and others like Oreos, but the bottom line is that they are still...just cookies; just like a computer is still...just a computer.

--P

ps: Research continues into the question as to which is best, Oreos or Hydrox. But that's a discussion for another day. :D

[8x10 user]

Not really... I built that computer because PC's are a better option then Mac's and because my own experience with apple has been pretty horrible...

We purchased a $4,000 apple quad core G5 a number of years ago and the machine was complete crap. There were a number of major design flaws in that model and they apple handled it was very poor. First of all they used "closed system water cooler" which are known by people in the know for lower performance and reliability issues. There were a lot of defective power supplies and motherboard issues in the model as well. The fan controller was software based and when the system was under a high load it would fail so the fans would not speed up to properly cool the system. We started having issues with the computer in less then a year. We must have gone to the apple store a half dozen times and each time they told us to reinstall the operating system. After it got to the point where we could not browse the web without a hardware panic (grey screen of gloom) I started doing research and found out that these type of issues were widespread. Thousands had the same issue and apple was well aware of it the whole time. What apple did about it was delete all the forum posts on their website relating to the issue so that people wouldn't catch on before their apple care expired (apples website is the most censored forum on the internet). We wasted so much time and money on that computer it is unreal. After the applecare expired they just told us we were SOL and to buy a new mac from them. The people at the apple store either new about the problem the whole time or were extremely and inexcusably ignorant of when it came to support of their machines. Apple burned me, big time!

After that I decided to do my own research and to build a quality computer on my own. I'm selling it now only because I need cash for an insane opportunity that I have to purchase 30+ large format lenses (mostly Rodenstock) for much less then wholesale.

I do honestly feel that apple computers are a rip off and that if people were more informed that they would not buy them.




So what you are really doing with this thread is trying to justify the custom PC you are trying to sell?
Right?

[welly]

Not really... I built that computer because PC's are a better option then Mac's and because my own experience with apple has been pretty horrible...
.
.
.
I do honestly feel that apple computers are a rip off and that if people were more informed that they would not buy them.

Dude, with all due respect, you're coming across with a very "holier than thou" attitude. The people on this forum are not idiots. We are from all walks of life - some who are IT professionals, some who don't know the back end of a mouse from a hard drive. But we're not idiots. Myself, I've been working in IT as a software engineer for almost 20 years. I know how to make an informed decision on the hardware I purchase. I'm now a Mac user of 8 years, I didn't choose to move to that platform lightly.

You've had a bad experience with Apple products - hard luck. Some do, I and many others have not. You don't find the price matches the value of the product - myself and many others do.

Please, can you drop the attitude?

[Bob Salomon]

" for much less then wholesale"

And how do you know what the wholesale price is?

[Eric Rose]

Well Bob nothing is secret anymore. Little brother is watching :cool:. Power to the people!

As far as pc -vs- apple is concerned, thank God we have choices. The PC os just works for some people just as the apple os works for others. But it seems your bitch is with the hardware. I've been in the IT world for over 30 years. I have seen my fair share of crappy PC boxes as well as Apple boxes. Just as I've seen crappy Schneider lenses and crappy Rodenstock lenses. As they say, people either swear by them or swear at them. Goes for just about anything.

For me to carry on and say all GM products are crap just because I got one lemon would be ridiculous. I replaced it with a Benz. I loved that car and had no problems with it. Others have had problems with theirs. What does that mean? Nothing at all. I sold it and went back to a North American car because it just wasn't "me". The new car runs great. Oh ya, and it's a GM.

[jnantz]

when i got and used my first mac it was 1986 ...

why do i use a mac now, kind of what frank said, and i don't see the point of using anything else.

[Leigh]

I do honestly feel that apple computers are a rip off and that if people were more informed that they would not buy them.
I could try to be polite, but I'm not going to, so the mods will probably give me a warning.

8x10... you have no clue what you're talking about.

Your obsession with CPU coolers and vapor-cooled video cards brands you as a hacker, period.

I've been designing microprocessor-based equipment since 1975.
I started using personal computers ten years before the IBM PC was introduced.

In all the computer-based products that I've designed (over 50), and all the computers I've used over the past
37 years, I've NEVER seen a CPU failure, and I've NEVER used a cooler other than the normal heatsink/fan.

Now go back to playing your dumb-ass video games and stop making derogatory comments about an excellent product line.

You couldn't identify a well-designed computer if you tripped over one.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

8x10 User: If you want to sell your higher-end PC and scanner on this forum you might try not to alienate most of the other people here.

Whenever I pitched new business using the strategy of telling my potential client that his current vendor was no good, all I managed to do was waste both of our time. It doesn't work - prove your value with deeds, not loudness....

[photobymike]

so what happened to your g5 .. had mine (G5 quad)for 2 years and sold it for more than i paid for it.....

I bought an intel quad MAC for 600 beans... stuffed it with memory and its the best computer i have ever used... it runs PC applications faster than any PC i have ever seen...

so what really is the problem? .... most people here dont care PC vs MAC

MAC works for me .. I started working with computers in the mid 80s in Alexandria Virginia Heathkit ....

[welly]

We've got a number of Mac quad G5s that we've been running in our office for years and years doing FCP without a hiccup. Of course, that's not to say that everyone's experience is flawless but if Apple products were as badly designed as our resident expert is suggesting, I think we'd know about it by now.

[Leigh]

...if Apple products were as badly designed as our resident expert is suggesting, I think we'd know about it by now.
We would, and they're not.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

The failure rate here is 18% and that is only of reported cases. The numbers are from 2006, I think ours died in 2007 or 2008 anyway I'm sure a later survey would show higher values.

http://lowendmac.com/deals/best-power-mac-g5-prices.html

Feel free to research thermal runaway on Mac G5's if you look hard enough it is a pretty well documented issue.

Also a lot of people had the "closed system" water cooling system leak into their computer and short it out.



We would, and they're not.

- Leigh

[Brian K]

I've owned:

Mac IIci
Quadra 800
Quadra 840av
Power Mac G3
Power Mac G5
MacPro 1.1
MacPro 5.1
iMac 27"
MacBook Pro 15"
MacBookPro 13"

My wife also owns Macs. We've never had a problem. And the last 7 Macs I listed, I still own and they still work.

[welly]

The failure rate here is 18% and that is only of reported cases. The numbers are from 2006, I think ours died in 2007 or 2008 anyway I'm sure a later survey would show higher values.

http://lowendmac.com/deals/best-power-mac-g5-prices.html

Feel free to research thermal runaway on Mac G5's if you look hard enough it is a pretty well documented issue.

Also a lot of people had the "closed system" water cooling system leak into their computer and short it out.

18%? A mere drop in the ocean.

http://gizmodo.com/5576237/dell-knowingly-sold-118-million-computers-with-a-97-failure-rate

[8x10 user]

Wow... Really? Personal attacks?

I'll admit that I'm not a computer expert by any means. I can't code or do anything crazy like that.

I do know the term hacker started as a compliment for people who knew how to do really complicated things with computers. Early programmers for example were called hackers. Anyway no I'm not a hacker. Picking a quality CPU cooler is really basic and the difference between stock CPU coolers and better ones is really big. A cooler CPU is going to last longer if it is cooler its just the way it works. IRL most of the time another component would fail or a computer will be taken out of service before that would happen but if I was buying 2 $1500 Xeon chips you can bet it will be upgrading the CPU cooler. Even a $60 mid level cooler would be much better then stock.

I learned about Vapor chambers when the G-force 500 series came out... It was all over Nvidia's site, although I believe sapphire was first to use it. Its actually pretty basic. All of this stuff is pretty basic. I can see though where it would be hard to know of the alternatives to a MAC since nobody else has as large of an advertising budget in this field. If apple came up with the Vaporchamber I bet you'd know about it.

People shouldn't be intimidated by this stuff, its really easy to build your own computer. Maybe its not worth your time, but for most I think it is. For example lets say you can build a computer for $5,000 that is as fast as a $8,000 mac. It might take 8 or more hours is that worth a $3000 savings to you?

I'm just talking about apple here guys don't take it personally ;)



I could try to be polite, but I'm not going to, so the mods will probably give me a warning.

8x10... you have no clue what you're talking about.

Your obsession with CPU coolers and vapor-cooled video cards brands you as a hacker, period.

I've been designing microprocessor-based equipment since 1975.
I started using personal computers ten years before the IBM PC was introduced.

In all the computer-based products that I've designed (over 50), and all the computers I've used over the past
37 years, I've NEVER seen a CPU failure, and I've NEVER used a cooler other than the normal heatsink/fan.

Now go back to playing your dumb-ass video games and stop making derogatory comments about an excellent product line.

You couldn't identify a well-designed computer if you tripped over one.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

Yeah dell and HP are probably worse then macs.... Although I use a maybe 15 year old Duel CPU dell with my drum scanner and I have had no issues. I choose an old dell because it is easy to find Windows 2000 drivers for it.


18%? A mere drop in the ocean.

http://gizmodo.com/5576237/dell-knowingly-sold-118-million-computers-with-a-97-failure-rate

[welly]

I'll admit that I'm not a computer expert by any means. I can't code or do anything crazy like that.
.
.
.
I'm just talking about apple here guys don't take it personally ;)

It's your tone and manner that I think most of us are taking offense to.

[8x10 user]

Yeah I'm sorry I don't mean to come off as a troll. Maybe I am being too strong with my opinion. Maybe I should have titled the thread alternatives to macs to be more politically correct. Of course not being informed of something does not make you an idiot.


Dude, with all due respect, you're coming across with a very "holier than thou" attitude. The people on this forum are not idiots. We are from all walks of life - some who are IT professionals, some who don't know the back end of a mouse from a hard drive. But we're not idiots. Myself, I've been working in IT as a software engineer for almost 20 years. I know how to make an informed decision on the hardware I purchase. I'm now a Mac user of 8 years, I didn't choose to move to that platform lightly.

You've had a bad experience with Apple products - hard luck. Some do, I and many others have not. You don't find the price matches the value of the product - myself and many others do.

Please, can you drop the attitude?

[welly]

Of course not being informed of something does not make you an idiot.

This is the point. I, and many others, are informed.

[Jim collum]

you wrote 'I just don't get it. Is it that the buyers of apple computers just don't know better or that they don't want to do any research into quality PC options? '

that's a little insulting to those of us who *do* use Apple computers and *do* know better... that's the attitude that's ruffling feathers here (as well as losing you potential customers)

your computer configuration is best for *you*, and for your needs.

it may be easier for you, and others in the computer field, to design and build your own.... *most* people not only don't care if their computer needs a water cooling system, but have no idea that there are even computers out there that use them.

you are a hobbyist. you care about the technology behind your computer. The vast majority of people don't.... sort of like explaining the in's and out's of wet plate to my mom who can barely use a digital p&s.

[Leigh]

I just don't get it. Is it that the buyers of apple computers just don't know better or that they don't want to do any research into quality PC options?
That is a highly insulting comment, based on an invalid definition of "quality".

You've obviously bought into the gamer-focused advertising hype about needing
the fastest CPUs and the fastest video cards.

Absolute nonsense, unless you're gaming. Very few real applications will benefit from those differences.
But the manufacturers sure make lots of $$$ selling them to gullible consumers.

You can find benchmarks to prove any particular advantage you might choose.
That means nothing in the real world.

As to building PCs, I and many others have been doing that for decades.
In my case, the O/Ss included CP/M, DOS, Windows, and Linux.

The difference is that we're building machines to actually do work,
not to brag about how much we spent on the latest and greatest.

As to the "mac only" assumption, I just started using a MacBook Pro about two years ago.
Before that all my machines were windoze.

I switched because of the extraordinarily poor security of the W$ platforms.
The Mac OS X is vastly superior in that regard.

- Leigh

[CP Goerz]

I am presently working with a G5 I bought when they first came out and have never had my baby crash despite years of surfing the net. All my friends who bought Windows based computers have had multiple replacements/crashed drives/bugs/whatever, I pay a premium when I'm buying a Mac so I don't have to deal with the constant threat of web viruses.

[8x10 user]

I do see that I made a mistake by starting this thread. I already have an opinion formed regarding the mac vs PC debate and the title was misleading because I did not start with a question but with an answer. It would have been different if someone else started the with a question as to which is better and what the pro's and cons of each are. Another thing I could have done is started with title such as in praise of PC's and talk about strengths of PC's. I apologies for this and I can also see how it might seem alienating because outside of whither I am right or wrong it like I am telling the whole forum what to do or buy. There should have been more organization at the beginning of a thread. It was a bad start.

Anyway since the thread is already going to try to make my point. For the record I am clearly in favor of windows and perhaps have a small bias against Macs. So now I am going to go on with why I prefer a PC over Macintosh and my opinion as to why others might want to consider a PC instead of a mac... Or at least quit "hating" on all windows computers because their not mac's.

[8x10 user]

Uhh web virus exist for mac now, if you have a mac you really should still do things like get anti virus software, use a firewall, encrypt your wireless routers, and back up your new. For extra protection there are safe search powered search engines and plugins that will warn you of sites that are know threats. It is possible that G'5s might less susceptible to virus then newer macs that use much different hardware.

[Alan Gales]

I do see that I made a mistake by starting this thread. I already have an opinion formed regarding the mac vs PC debate and the title was misleading because I did not start with a question but with an answer. It would have been different if someone else started the with a question as to which is better and what the pro's and cons of each are. Another thing I could have done is started with title such as in praise of PC's and talk about strengths of PC's. I apologies for this and I can also see how it might seem alienating because outside of whither I am right or wrong it like I am telling the whole forum what to do or buy. There should have been more organization at the beginning of a thread. It was a bad start.

Anyway since the thread is already going to try to make my point. For the record I am clearly in favor of windows and perhaps have a small bias against Macs. So now I am going to go on with why I prefer a PC over Macintosh and my opinion as to why others might want to consider a PC instead of a mac... Or at least quit "hating" on all windows computers because their not mac's.

Use what you like. I prefer Mac and I am very happy with it but that's what works for me. It's just like a camera. Everyone wants to think that their camera is the best. Who cares? If it works for you then that's all that matters.

[Leigh]

Uhh web virus exist for mac now, if you have a mac you really should still do things like get anti virus software, use a firewall, encrypt your wireless routers, and back up your new. For extra protection there are safe search powered search engines and plugins that will warn you of sites that are know threats. It is possible that G'5s might less susceptible to virus then newer macs that use much different hardware.
Film at 11. :eek:

This is 10 year old news.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

No keep it going, it's entertaining.

[8x10 user]

I mean no offense by the quality thing, not all PC's are the same and a bad brand or model can lead to bad experiences. It doesn't mean all PC's are bad and really there are good things about good PC's.

The thing is if you don't need a superpower computer then why should you spend a lot of money on one? All mac's are expensive. If you want a duel or quad core computer that is as fast as an Imac you can do it for much less money. Performance is nice but also when you build your own computer you can make it more reliable. It doesn't cost a big premium to upgrade your CPU cooler, use a case with better airflow, or make sure your using a reliable powersupply vender.

On the performance level faster CPU's or ones with more cores do make a difference in real life. So does the amount of memory, memory speed, drive speed, thermal stability, and even video cards are coming into consideration as CS5 uses them slightly and CS6 somewhat more. A video card today is many time faster then the CPU's and rest of the computer. A single card can have hundreds or thousands of processors running at close to 1 GHZ, its just hard for software designers to learn how to use it for application purposes. There are basically two kind of applications that you deal with right now some are single and some are hyperthreaded. A single threaded application will not be able utilize the power of addition CPU cores and is mostly depended on CPU speed, while hyper or multi threaded programs can utilize additional cores to increase the application speed. A lot of video games for example are single threaded. Today a main goal of software development is to learn how to utilize as many cores as possible and most of the programs we use are actually getting pretty good at using the power of a multicore or multicpu system. PhotoShop and Auto Pano Giga for example do amazingly well on a high end multicore multicpu computer, and will use video card power in the system. Thats basically the difference between a mac pro and an imac aside from built in monitor. People pay A gamer wouldn't see a big upgrade in moving to the MAC pro or maxing out the memory capacity but we do which is why people more money for mac pro's then imacs. Because they are faster for workstation purposes. Well you don't have to buy or make a computer thats built for gamer, your can also optmize one for applications.

Some benchmarks are good to show the speed for the type of applications we use. Cinebench for example is a multithreaded image rendering benchmark that will closely correlate with real life applications like Photoshop AutoPano and Premier Pro. Here is a good video of a i7 mac versus a 12 core mac.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF0PXGJBFDQ

BTW, I think the best I did with my last build was ~21pts vs 13.8pt for mac pro and 2.54pt the imac.

Quad CPU AMD systems get even higher scores but are not as good for some threaded applications. There is a premium to all multi CPU systems as they charge more for second or more connection on the CPU that allows it to talk to other CPU'S. If someone wants to save money a single CPU system offers more value. If you want a system that compares to an imac you can save a lot by not having the built in monitor and you can use a real desktop harddrive and real full sized memory rather then laptop parts which are more expensive and have lower performance.

Just like the mac pro you can build a PC with duel Xeon processors and load it up with a lot of ram. Its going to be expensive but less then a comparable mac. Also if you want to upgrade apple charges a premium for video card's, ram, doesn't let you upgrade your CPU's. If your looking for the fastest workstation then your answer is a PC. Its a fact. Of course a PC is maybe a little bit more like a ferrari then a honda civic and if you don't take care of it will break quicker. If you load your system with malware, spyware or other system drainers then its not going to run as fast. Antivirus and Antimalware is a must for anyone who uses the internet and wants to protect their computer. Antivirus is free in many cases so there is no excuse.




That is a highly insulting comment, based on an invalid definition of "quality".

You've obviously bought into the gamer-focused advertising hype about needing
the fastest CPUs and the fastest video cards.

Absolute nonsense, unless you're gaming. Very few real applications will benefit from those differences.
But the manufacturers sure make lots of $$$ selling them to gullible consumers.

You can find benchmarks to prove any particular advantage you might choose.
That means nothing in the real world.

As to building PCs, I and many others have been doing that for decades.
In my case, the O/Ss included CP/M, DOS, Windows, and Linux.

The difference is that we're building machines to actually do work,
not to brag about how much we spent on the latest and greatest.

As to the "mac only" assumption, I just started using a MacBook Pro about two years ago.
Before that all my machines were windoze.

I switched because of the extraordinarily poor security of the W$ platforms.
The Mac OS X is vastly superior in that regard.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

Heres a quick vid of a cinebench test on an SR-2 based Duel CPU windows system. The exact computer featured is not mine, this is just video I found of a windows computer that is similar to the Mac Pro. Again the results will mirror performance in photoshop. Harddrive speed, ram capacity, and ram speed will also effect photoshop performance. But of course the best memory gets automatically downclocked and cannot be upclocked without bios access... Another advantage of PC's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aootHB_wR8

[Leigh]

Wow. You appear to be an expert on clocking. What... exactly... does that mean?

- Leigh

[welly]

The thing is if you don't need a superpower computer then why should you spend a lot of money on one? All mac's are expensive. If you want a duel or quad core computer that is as fast as an Imac you can do it for much less money. Performance is nice but also when you build your own computer you can make it more reliable. It doesn't cost a big premium to upgrade your CPU cooler, use a case with better airflow, or make sure your using a reliable powersupply vender.


I don't have the time, inclination or interest to do any of this. The last thing I want to do when spending 8 hours of my working day staring at a computer is come home and start building one. This is why I do photography.

[Jim collum]

There's a quality to something more than just the raw metrics... if it was only about the benchmarks, specs, gear...... you'd probably be 'Nikon D4 user' instead of 8x10 user. You find value in the workflow of an 8x10 (i'm assuming that's why you've changed your name to '8x10 user'), that goes beyond just being the fastest, most modern, state of the art. I've been working with computers since I built an Altair 8800 in 1977. I've worked for for DEC, (with Unix when it began) in the 80's.. have worked embedded systems at Cisco and numerous startups. I'm not using a Mac because I don't know any better.. I choose to because it fits the way I work.

[8x10 user]

It looks like the fastest mac is a PC running OS X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsH5z1PqRU&feature=related

[Leigh]

I've been working with computers since I built an Altair 8800 in 1977.
I too built an Altair 8800, ordered in December of 1974 and received a couple of months later.

The first one in the state of Maryland. I still have it.

- Leigh

[Jim collum]

I too built an Altair 8800, ordered in December of 1974 and received a couple of months later.

The first one in the state of Maryland. I still have it.

- Leigh
fantastic!!!

i've been looking for http://www.altairkit.com/ to come out with new kits to build one again :)

[8x10 user]

Well a faster computer means your not staring at a hourglass or a color wheel when you work on those big images. The 8 hour figure was for a more complicated type of computer that is close to a mac pro. In that instance you might save $3000 or so. Personally I would be very happy if 8 hours of my time was worth $3,000. If your time is worth more then that then get a mac pro or for faster system find a custom computer company that specializes in high end workstations.

A lower budget computer might only take an hour and half to assemble and install the software. Researching and ordering parts might be another couple hours. I haven't priced it out but for IMAC level builds perhaps you could save $800 for 4 hours of your time.... I really don't know for sure but I think it is significante. Or perhaps one would save a bit less then that but end up with a faster computer.

At certain price points AMD might offer the best value in CPU's... Apple only uses intel at the moment, and not the 6 core CPU with higher memory speed. A cheaper windows system will have faster memory options. There are core i7's PC options with memory from 1600-2400 mhz while the imac use two channels (slots) at 1333mhz. In general there seems to be a gap in apples line up as they don't have anything between the quad core i7 and their duel Xeon mac pro. There are 6 core ivybridge processors now for $400-$500 which might be half as fast as a pair of macpro xeon CPUS at the $3000 price tag (just for CPU's).

We all have computers now so if we anyone buys a new one its mostly likely because they want faster performance or they had an issue with their old computer. It sounds like the main reason why many of you would choose a mac or PC are convenience and taste. Which is fine but to me its not exactly like buying a bottled water from the gas station. I find the savings are worth going out of my way to build a PC. There are good prebuilt options but the savings would be less and I like to have control over whats in my computer. If its not worth it to you then its not worth it to you to each his own.



I don't have the time, inclination or interest to do any of this. The last thing I want to do when spending 8 hours of my working day staring at a computer is come home and start building one. This is why I do photography.

[8x10 user]

Well the speed of your CPU in mhz is a factor of your base clock or system bus speed times the clock multiplier in the CPU. The starting bus speed on the mac pro and x56XX xeon PC's is 133. The fastest CPU on the mac pro (x5670) has a multiplier of of 22 (133 x 22 =2.93ghz). The memory on the mac pro is spec'd at 1333MHZ so the memory multiplier would be 10. If one were to make a similar system on a EVGA SR-2 motherboard they would have the freedom to use a x12 memory multiplier and to change the base clock speed which will increase CPU and Memory speeds. Most high end single CPU motherborads would support higher memory multipliers then 12x.

With good cooling a baseclock of 190 is fairly easy is to obtain on the SR-2 without generating high temperatures or using excessive voltage. The SR-2 has more DIMM slots as well so total memory bandwidth can be set to more then twice that of the current mac pro.


Wow. You appear to be an expert on clocking. What... exactly... does that mean?

- Leigh

[Michael E]

Of course not being informed of something does not make you an idiot.

Actually, it does.

I, for instance, am a computer idiot. I just don't care. My own machine is five years old and I haven't changed or upgraded my hardware. I dread the day when I feel the need for a new computer, because it means setting up a new system, transferring my stuff from the old one, getting to know a new OS (still using XP). Photoshop still runs great, even with huge files. So I don't care about performance or cooling or whatever.

I like to fix stuff, I'm restoring an old house and repairing my own cars. But not computers. For me, they are just boxes that run Photoshop. I just don't care. Maybe I would buy a Mac, if I didn't dislike the OS so much. For work, I have to use a Mac several days a week, but I will never get used to that OS.

Michael

[Ed Bray]

To take this slightly off topic initially, I have just got a Samsung galaxy note to replace my aging iphone 3gs, I am really struggling to get to grips with it compared to the iphone. On the other hand I just sold my macbook pro as I prefer the windows desktop to OSX and as I grew up so to speak wigh a 2 button mouse I found it difficult to have to adapt to a single button.

[Brian K]

To take this slightly off topic initially, I have just got a Samsung galaxy note to replace my aging iphone 3gs, I am really struggling to get to grips with it compared to the iphone. On the other hand I just sold my macbook pro as I prefer the windows desktop to OSX and as I grew up so to speak wigh a 2 button mouse I found it difficult to have to adapt to a single button.


Ed, if you use the Mac magic mouse, which is the standard mouse that ships with apple, you already have a second button. It's just not visible. When you click on the right side of the mouse(it can be switched to the left) it acts as a right click.

[Brian K]

Reagrading the speed of computers, I started using Macs when they were the only game in town for Photo Shop. It would take sometimes a half hour for some PS function to complete on a 25 meg file. Now I have almost no wait times on files that bulk up as much as 5 gigs. Just how much more speed does one need when almost all actions are instantaneous? Granted there might be some cine applications for professionals in the film business, but that's a tiny number of users.

The arguments about speed are really pointless. It's like arguing that a car that does 0-60 in 2.4 seconds is much faster than a car that does it in 3 seconds flat and therefore the 3 second car is not a great car. Who cares? Who is really going to need or benefit by such a small and non practical increase in speed?

[Jack Dahlgren]

I think that you are incorrect about vapor chamber cooling. Nvidia adopted it rather than invented it. GM, RCA and NASA all contributed to the development of the technology, long before the PC existed.

Likewise, you mentioned CUDA and other GPU advancements. These are not just for PC's.

[Frank Petronio]

Reagrading the speed of computers, I started using Macs when they were the only game in town for Photo Shop. It would take sometimes a half hour for some PS function to complete on a 25 meg file. Now I have almost no wait times on files that bulk up as much as 5 gigs. Just how much more speed does one need when almost all actions are instantaneous? Granted there might be some cine applications for professionals in the film business, but that's a tiny number of users.

The arguments about speed are really pointless. It's like arguing that a car that does 0-60 in 2.4 seconds is much faster than a car that does it in 3 seconds flat and therefore the 3 second car is not a great car. Who cares? Who is really going to need or benefit by such a small and non practical increase in speed?

;-) plus a loaded IIci cost about $5K and I remember 8mb RAM sticks were $800 or so... I could still watch a TV sitcom while waiting for a filter to run.

Now I use a $1500 system based on a Mac Mini Server that can open an entire shoot's worth of images.

[wmsey]

"I just don't get it. Is it that the buyers of apple computers just don't know better or that they don't want to do any research into quality PC options?"

Yes, I am an idiot and I don't know better and yes I don't get it. I am also too lazy to know a thing about Window's and machines that run it. If I hadn't got 4 years of non-stop service out of my MacPro I'd feel completely foolish and I thank you for pointing that out. I'm honestly sorry that I bought it with it's enterprise level hardware and damn I wish it had a plastic case.

And OS X is... wait OS X is wonderful.

You are obviously a Troll. Good luck with that.

[Brian K]

;-) plus a loaded IIci cost about $5K and I remember 8mb RAM sticks were $800 or so... I could still watch a TV sitcom while waiting for a filter to run.

Now I use a $1500 system based on a Mac Mini Server that can open an entire shoot's worth of images.

Frank I had 24 MB of RAM, serious money back then, and a 600MB "turbo" PLI HD that cost $3000. And now my phone has a faster processor and vastly more memory. Quite a bit of advancement. I also had a desk top scanner, crap by todays standards of even the most consumer oriented scanners, and it too cost $3000.

[8x10 user]

It was late and I made a few errors this one... It looks like the fasest mac uses a 23 multiplier to get a 3.06 ghz speed. Also the fastest memory multiplier on the SR-2 is 10, when you fill all the DIMM slots (6 per cpu) it lowers the memory clock to 8 then you can change it to 10 in the BIO's. With adjustments to the baseclock you can reach 1900-1950 MHZ on your memory with and 12 banks rather then 8 that is a lot of bandwidth.



Well the speed of your CPU in mhz is a factor of your base clock or system bus speed times the clock multiplier in the CPU. The starting bus speed on the mac pro and x56XX xeon PC's is 133. The fastest CPU on the mac pro (x5670) has a multiplier of of 22 (133 x 22 =2.93ghz). The memory on the mac pro is spec'd at 1333MHZ so the memory multiplier would be 10. If one were to make a similar system on a EVGA SR-2 motherboard they would have the freedom to use a x12 memory multiplier and to change the base clock speed which will increase CPU and Memory speeds. Most high end single CPU motherborads would support higher memory multipliers then 12x.

With good cooling a baseclock of 190 is fairly easy is to obtain on the SR-2 without generating high temperatures or using excessive voltage. The SR-2 has more DIMM slots as well so total memory bandwidth can be set to more then twice that of the current mac pro.

[8x10 user]

I thought Nvidia adapted it from video care manufacturer called sapphire who would upgrade the cooling on some of their versions of nvidia and AMD chips. Anyway I don't really know the technology was probably around before sapphire. CUDA is not just for PC but I think people started using it on Linux and Windows first.


I think that you are incorrect about vapor chamber cooling. Nvidia adopted it rather than invented it. GM, RCA and NASA all contributed to the development of the technology, long before the PC existed.

Likewise, you mentioned CUDA and other GPU advancements. These are not just for PC's.

[8x10 user]

Really you make a really good point not everyone can justify the fastest mac or the fastest PC. It really dependents on what your doing. If your are stitching gigapixel images all day professionally then a fast system would be a good investment because of the time you would save. If you photoshop every one in a while and that's the most complicated thing you do then maybe its not worth it. Photoshop on a super fast system is fun thou... You can do quick selections on giant images without it taking forever or use more complicated filters without worry about the wait.

For a lot of people here a $800 PC or a $1800 mac would be fast enough.



Reagrading the speed of computers, I started using Macs when they were the only game in town for Photo Shop. It would take sometimes a half hour for some PS function to complete on a 25 meg file. Now I have almost no wait times on files that bulk up as much as 5 gigs. Just how much more speed does one need when almost all actions are instantaneous? Granted there might be some cine applications for professionals in the film business, but that's a tiny number of users.

The arguments about speed are really pointless. It's like arguing that a car that does 0-60 in 2.4 seconds is much faster than a car that does it in 3 seconds flat and therefore the 3 second car is not a great car. Who cares? Who is really going to need or benefit by such a small and non practical increase in speed?

[8x10 user]

I just don't think a lot of people realize you can get PC with enterprise level hardware for less. Metal cases are available for PC's as well. Windows 7 is really nice... My friend and I have both been using it for a year with no crashes. I find the OS intuitive and easy to use, I love the little things like when I grab a window and move it to the top of my other window it will automatically maximize the window in the other screen. Its fast and stable and TRIM support in the OS means my SSD won't degrade as fast as it would on a MAC.



"I just don't get it. Is it that the buyers of apple computers just don't know better or that they don't want to do any research into quality PC options?"

Yes, I am an idiot and I don't know better and yes I don't get it. I am also too lazy to know a thing about Window's and machines that run it. If I hadn't got 4 years of non-stop service out of my MacPro I'd feel completely foolish and I thank you for pointing that out. I'm honestly sorry that I bought it with it's enterprise level hardware and damn I wish it had a plastic case.

And OS X is... wait OS X is wonderful.

You are obviously a Troll. Good luck with that.

[8x10 user]

Both Windows and Apple buy or steal a good portion of their innovations from independent outfits and from other operating systems like Linux. OSX is actually built on unix. I think more credit should be given to the creators of Unix and C++, they both died fairly recently but its not getting a lot of press. C++ changed the world of computing and without Unix there would be no mac OSX.

By the way frank, the first CD drive was made for an IBM computer but that's all 80's and 90's stuff anyway.

[8x10 user]

A lot of the people here probably don't know how to build their own computer and perhaps think its much harder then it is. Which is understandable... It's not like this a computer forum. But it is actually pretty easy and I am sure everyone here could do it.

I do think that building your own PC is the best option, and that more should consider it. Honestly its not that hard, just go to BenchmarkReviews.com and Tomshardware.com find out what people recommend in your price range and buy the parts. To start with you only need a CPU, a motherboard, a case, a cpu cooler, a harddrive, a video card, a powersupply, and Ram. It takes only a few minutes to put one together for the most part all you gotta do is put the parts in their slots... Super easy.

A lot of people might have had bad experiences with pre built PC's, most of the big manufactures aren't very good IMO. Alot of times they use good parts in some areas but less good parts in other areas. You don't want to go to best buy, dell, or HP. Building your own PC is worth the time, but there are smaller places who do offer higher quality custom PC's. I don't know too much about what the best names are. I know puget and falcon PC are supposed to be pretty good. Alienware use to be OK but not since HP purchased them.

It is fine if you want a mac because its you like the user interface more, or because you don't have the time or the want to look at the alternatives. But there is a premium.. You can build a computer for much less then a mac that is equally fast. Also the fastest options are PC based.

In terms of speed adobe programs are really good at harnessing the power of a MAC or PC. The system specs have more to do with what the performance will be. The highest specs are from custom windows computers. There are some programs that will run better on a MAC or a PC based on how well it's written for the particular OS. There are also MAC only and PC only programs.

I do like building computers and I think that the savings would outweigh the time investment for most people here. In a day you can build a computer for $5000 that would be close to maybe an $8000 mac.

[8x10 user]

So if you take the base clock and multiple it by the memory multiplier and the number 8 you get the memory bandwidth per each DIMM slot (per RAM stick) in MegaBytes per second. If you add the speed of all of the occupied DIMM slots you get the system memory bandwidth.

Here is a table I made showing the memory bandwidth of an 8 (mac pro) or 12 (SR-2) DIMM slot DDR3 computer:

Memory Speed Memory chip classification Module classification Module bandwidth System bandwidth (8 dimm slots, i.e. mac pro) System bandwidth (12 dimm slots, i.e. sr-2)



Memory Speed
Memory chip classification
Module classification
Module bandwidth
System bandwidth (8 dimm slots, i.e. mac pro)
System bandwidth (12 dimm slots, i.e. sr-2)


1066 MHZ
DDR3-1066
PC3 8500
8.5 GBps
68 GBps
102 GBps


1333 MHz
DDR3-1333
PC3 10600
10.6 GBps
84.8 GBps
127.2 GBps


1600 MHZ
DDR3-1600
PC3 12800
12.8 GBps
102.4 GBps
153.6 GBps


1700 MHZ
DDR3-1700
PC3 13600
13.6 GBps
108.8 GBps
163.2 GBps


1900 MHZ
DDR3-1900
PC3 15200
15.2 GBps
121.6 GBps
182.4 GBps



Yellow = Maximum apple speed 84.8 GBps

Green = SR-2 base speed = 102 GBps

Blue = SR-2 potential speed = 182.4 GBps

As you can see the difference can be pretty big! I haven't run the numbers on a single CPU system but you can probably make single CPU PC with as much memory bandwidth as the current mac pro. The RAM is designed for and spec'd for this. It is reached with safe voltages (1.65 volts or less in this case) that do not void the warranty. All ~2000 mhz memory will downclock to base level and you need to change the multipliers to get it too run at the advertised speed. Most PC motherboards are designed for this and show specs with speeds achieved by increasing memory or base multipliers.

I have personally configured a computer for a special project that has 12 dimm slots running at 1900 MHZ. I was able to do it with lower latency "timings" then the MAC PRO which has a CAS latency of 9 (VS 8 for my settings at 1900MHZ and 7 for the 1700MHZ settings). The numbers show that duel Xeon PC option has the potential to start with a system with already higher bandwidth and if you wanted could then increase the speed by almost as much as a whole mac pro.

Normally you want all of your memory to be part of a "matched kit". You really don't want to upgrade by adding more ram from another source. It will preform just a bit differently and limits your performance at higher speeds and is less stable. A number of people add new sticks to their macs all the time after purchase because apple charges too much for their RAM, this is not ideal... But since apple is not really running the hardware close to is capacity people get away with it. A matched memory kit is like a larger monitor, it is harder to make a larger kit then a smaller one because each stick should be tested and chance of getting a number that work the same without defects is reduced when the kit sized is increased.

When you build a PC you can chose between a number of reputable high performance ram manufactures who are always looking for ways to increase performance, reliability, and customer satisfaction. You can choose from the best of the best and see big improvements in your computer. Apple charges more for the most generic memory that is most likely not even "matched".

[Brian K]

Speedy hardware means little if your OS sucks, crashes, freezes, is slowed down by constant virus searches and viruses themselves. All I know is my Macs very rarely have any issues, and I can work 5 gig files with little in the way of wait time.

[Lachlan 717]

Speedy hardware means little if your OS sucks, crashes, freezes, is slowed down by constant virus searches and viruses themselves.

I HATE Microsoft. Having to download half a Gig's worth of Patches (notice that there aren't call "Fixes"?) every month just to allow Office for Mac to be safe screams "I'm a dud product".

Imagine having to take a car back to the dealer every month for a Patch. There's no way you'd buy the car. Why do we accept a fundamentally flawed platform? Frankly, MS and PC can blow it out their cornholes.

[8x10 user]

Have you used a system with hardware designed for windows 7 with windows 7 professional or ultimate? Its really good now... Honest.

Good hardware + windows 7 = happiness


Speedy hardware means little if your OS sucks, crashes, freezes, is slowed down by constant virus searches and viruses themselves. All I know is my Macs very rarely have any issues, and I can work 5 gig files with little in the way of wait time.

[Darin Boville]

I HATE Microsoft.

I've been using Macs since 1986 and over that time I've come to the conclusion that not having Microsoft products installed makes for a happier system. We've been Microsoft free now for ten years or more. Don't miss their stuff at all.

--Darin

[8x10 user]

Its come along way in 10 years... You don't know what your missing.


I've been using Macs since 1986 and over that time I've come to the conclusion that not having Microsoft products installed makes for a happier system. We've been Microsoft free now for ten years or more. Don't miss their stuff at all.

--Darin

[jb7]

I know this is in the Digital Hardware section, but I think it would be more appropriate in the drag racing section of a mac haters militia forum. I don't think any of this is news, and if I was interested in taking up building computers as a hobby, I might not come here for this kind of information. I wouldn't be able to spec a PC in a day, or build one in a day, and if I were to pay someone to make me a Formula 1 PC, then the cost advantage might not be as attractive as you make it out to be. Also, I'm not sure I'd like to be in a position of having to troubleshoot a problem where a variety of vendors have the opportunity to pass the buck around me. I don't need to know any of this stuff, I just need it to work.

I don't think you're doing yourself any favors as a computer salesman by starting out with an appraisal of mac users as being uninformed and ignorant. No matter if it's true or not, it makes you come across as a slightly hysterical evangelist, in a church where most people are already pretty sure which denomination they belong to. (can this thread be deleted now? ... )

I'm glad you like your Windows 7, or whatever, and that you've taken the trouble to try to get me to mend my ways, but I don't really get why you're so concerned about what machinery and software I use- I don't really care much about computers as long as they don't cause me too much grief, and since the only time I get under the hood is when things go wrong, I seldom find that aspect of them to be a pleasurable experience. However, I certainly couldn't care less about what other people use, though I am entertained by the mac haters among us- I usually see them as people with an irrational hatred of shiny things, since it's obvious they don't use the things themselves.

I know you mentioned your bad experience with Apple, I'm afraid I haven't had that experience yet.

I've only used notebooks for the last ten years or so anyway, sorry, macbook pro and powerbooks, and they've always been adequate, if not blisteringly fast performers. I've always preferred the Mac OS, since the mid 90's, and if windows have come up with something equally seductive in the last year or so, well great. Nothing like a bit of competition.

By the way, all my macs are pc's...

[Bob Salomon]

I updated my Widows 7 on my MacBook Pro on 6/7 and just checked Windows Updates and found 14 important and 2 optional updates waiting.

Too bad OSX doesn't let me have the same fun as Windows 7 with updates.

Why so many on Windows 7?

[8x10 user]

I personally like that they continue to find ways to improve their products. Updates are good, in addition to OS updates its good to get the ones from AMD, Nvidia, your motherboard manufacture, and Intel. Everything has updates these days even video game systems and televisions. Its called product support. Do you complain when adobe updates their software, or when apple lets a new cat out of the cage?

[8x10 user]

It's true that it would take longer to go "formula 1" with a PC. Watercooling for example is a lot of work if gives huger performance increases but one can still get good results with simple third party stock coolers. You can build a pretty decent computer with 4-8 hrs of time spread over multiple days and there are a ton of resources to help along the way. But yeah I see your point a lot of people don't want to learn how to build a computer. If those people want to buy a Mac or prebuilt PC that is fine.

If going prebuilt PC do a little research there are a number specialty custom workstation providers such as puget and falcon that can put together a good system at any price range.

Honestly the crabapples ;) have worn me down, buy what you want. I don't care anymore. I'm sorry for even bringing up alternatives to apple. It doesn't matter if PC's are faster or cheaper its a free country and people can buy what they want. I got no problem with that.

[Bob Salomon]

I personally like that they continue to find ways to improve their products. Updates are good, in addition to OS updates its good to get the ones from AMD, Nvidia, your motherboard manufacture, and Intel. Everything has updates these days even video game systems and televisions. Its called product support. Do you complain when adobe updates their software, or when apple lets a new cat out of the cage?

My impression is that most of the updates I have had to make to Windows 7 seem to be security driven. Not updates in performance or features.

Most of the few Apple updates seem to add features and are not as security driven.

[8x10 user]

You guys ever see the oil submerged PC?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtufuXLvOok

[Leigh]

...its a free country and people can buy what they want. I got no problem with that.
Amazing. You actually acknowledge that our choice is ours, and none of your business.

That's a major step in the right direction.

Your messianic tactics don't work in the real world. Go back to your gamer forums where the participants might be impressed.

Your opinions DO NOT matter to anybody but you.


... you can change it to 10 in the BIO's.
In a futile attempt to educate you, the Basic Input/Output System is abbreviated BIOS,
all upper case, and no apostrophe. Afraid they missed that in your expert certification.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

Its a mixture some are performance related and later service packs are always more stable. I think windows will also update your drives for you when new better ones come out. Your suppose to update everything after you install your operating system. Doing so definitely increases the performance and stability of the system. One small update or two might not do much.



My impression is that most of the updates I have had to make to Windows 7 seem to be security driven. Not updates in performance or features.

Most of the few Apple updates seem to add features and are not as security driven.

[Mike Anderson]

...
Honestly the crabapples ;) have worn me down, buy what you want. I don't care anymore. I'm sorry for even bringing up alternatives to apple. It doesn't matter if PC's are faster or cheaper its a free country and people can buy what they want. I got no problem with that.

You haven't said anything pertinent other than the fact that you can get better hardware specs for less money by going the Windows route. We knew that already.

[Preston]

I had written a rather lengthy reply, but decided to scrap it. Why?

Well...Resistance is futile, from either side of the argument. We can argue the merits of one thing vs. another until we're turning blue, but in the end we choose to use the tools that work best for us as individuals, within our respective budgets. There is a ton of hype by pundits on both sides of the debate, so all we can do is choose as wisely as we are able, pay our nickel, and takes our chance.

Personally, I like Oreos.

--P

[8x10 user]

I am very far from an expert and have no computer certifications yet I did manage to build a computer that would decimate the current Mac at just about everything ;)... It was a very advanced build though that I do not recommend everyone take such a task...

The build used the same CPU's as the mac pro and I know a lot of about there specific features and capabilities from my experiences.

The gamer remark is kind of ignorant dude... If I wanted to build a gamer computer then it would be spec'd completely different. Video games don't require 24 threads and 48 GB of ram. People who buy SR-2 Motherboards do so for Hardcore workstation and scientific research purposes, not gaming. A super fast 2-4 core video game rig is not going to be as good for heavy workstation purposes as a mac pro, but you can configure a PC to be equal or better at workstation applications.

Funny thou that your trying to "educate me" while at the same time complaining when I try to "inform" the forum of some of the potential pros of non apple workstation and what pitfall's to avoid in the PC world.



Amazing. You actually acknowledge that our choice is ours, and none of your business.

That's a major step in the right direction.

Your messianic tactics don't work in the real world. Go back to your gamer forums where the participants might be impressed.

Your opinions DO NOT matter to anybody but you.


In a futile attempt to educate you, the Basic Input/Output System is abbreviated BIOS,
all upper case, and no apostrophe. Afraid they missed that in your expert certification.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

You probably right, oh yeah also avoid best buy, hp, and dell. Peace out :cool:


You haven't said anything pertinent other than the fact that you can get better hardware specs for less money by going the Windows route. We knew that already.

[jb7]

With the exception of some of your initial remarks, you haven't really said anything objectionable-
though to claim a machine would be decimated by your pc does smack a little of Robot Wars.

For those who do a lot of heavy lifting, I'm sure performance gains would be welcome, but in the real world, you tend to stay with a system that you're happy with, and that you've invested a lot of software in. If Apple weren't producing good solutions then I'm sure your battle would be a lot less uphill.

[Lachlan 717]

I personally like that they continue to find ways to improve their products.

Stepping in dog sh*t wearing shoes is an improvement over stepping in it barefooted. But, in the end, you're still dealing with the same sh#t.

Funny that there hasn't been a flood of PC users supporting your suppositions, both on this point and on your fundamental point, isn't it?

[Leigh]

I am very far from an expert and have no computer certifications yet I did manage to build a computer that would decimate the current Mac at just about everything ;)... It was a very advanced build though that I do not recommend everyone take such a task...
Yeah, I'm sure nobody in this forum is as smart as you when it comes to building PCs.
Anybody who doubts that can ask you. You're a legend in your own mind.


The gamer remark is kind of ignorant dude...
No, it's well-deserved, DUDE. You string buzz-words together with no understanding of what they mean.

The keys to performance are #1 software, and #2 RAM size.
The fastest fanciest computer in the world can only run lousy software slightly faster than a mid-range machine.

A few years ago I was called in as a consultant on an industrial measurement system that wasn't meeting spec.
I re-wrote the relevant sections of the program in two days, and increased the performance by 700%.
Absolutely no changes in the hardware whatsoever.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

Explaining how system bandwidth is calculated and offering examples that explain how much the memory bandwidth is improved by more channels at higher speeds is objectionable... Its science, programming, and fact. Apple uses quantified data on their literature to show increases in speed among their systems. Nothing is more objectionable then quantified data. This is math not opinion.

If you have expensive software for mac and can't migrate the license(s) to PC then that would be really good reason to stick to mac. People here seem to like mac's because they have one and it works for them. That's fine if ain't broke don't fix it. If you have a computer that does everything you want then you don't need a new mac or PC.

If you haven't used a new high-quality PC thou then you really aren't so objectionable either. In a forum of professionals who have used or built highend PC based workstations the apple alternatives would be uphill as well. There is a SR-2 / SR-X forum on EVGA's site, and being a computer forum, the people in there know a lot about computers. It seems like all of the professionals there choose the windows system for reasons they believe in strongly.

I did think that this was an online photography forum and that computers are a big part of a lot of photography these days. We all use them and the software we use is available for mac or window so why not compare the two? When did this turn into the apple forum?

...I guess most mac users just really love those shiny grey machines and will defend them like their own children. I'm sorry if I am popping anyone's bubble I'm not trying to take love out of the world or part anyone from their children. A mac or PC... Either way; they are just computers.


With the exception of some of your initial remarks, you haven't really said anything objectionable-
though to claim a machine would be decimated by your pc does smack a little of Robot Wars.

For those who do a lot of heavy lifting, I'm sure performance gains would be welcome, but in the real world, you tend to stay with a system that you're happy with, and that you've invested a lot of software in. If Apple weren't producing good solutions then I'm sure your battle would be a lot less uphill.

[8x10 user]

Actually I'm sure that there are people who are "smarter" at PC building them me, even on this forum... They are probably just scared that they will get flamed of sticking up for windows. I have a couple of friends who know way more about building computers then me. I'm not a novice nor an expert. I don't know a thing about programming either. My brother does but but I am more into photography and programming experience that has nothing to do with this debate anyway.

Adobe makes really good software, so does autopano, there stuff runs fanatically well on MAC or PC. MAC's and PC's are so close right now that it is easier then ever for them to program for both. You can run benchmarks that show similar performance when similar specs are used. The spec's of the best PC's are better.

It is impressive that you were able to improve performance so much in 2 days... Imagine thou what the 10,000 of thousands of people working on improving the code in windows operating system's, hardware, and software can achieve. There are hard at work out there and they know what they are doing. If you haven't used windows in 10 years then you miss out on what a million man hours or whatever it is can do.

That there is much more to performance then software and RAM size. RAM speed, CPU Speed, the number of CPU cores all make a huge difference in performance. Thats why the more expensive macs have more CPU cores at a higher speed. I'm not talking about unicorns here this stuff is pretty concrete. Oh yeah... You can build a PC with hundreds of GB of ram if you wanted to.



Yeah, I'm sure nobody in this forum is as smart as you when it comes to building PCs.
Anybody who doubts that can ask you. You're a legend in your own mind.


No, it's well-deserved, DUDE. You string buzz-words together with no understanding of what they mean.

The keys to performance are #1 software, and #2 RAM size.
The fastest fanciest computer in the world can only run lousy software slightly faster than a mid-range machine.

A few years ago I was called in as a consultant on an industrial measurement system that wasn't meeting spec.
I re-wrote the relevant sections of the program in two days, and increased the performance by 700%.
Absolutely no changes in the hardware whatsoever.

- Leigh

[Mike Anderson]

If you haven't used a new high-quality PC thou then you really aren't so objectionable either.

Thank you.

[Leigh]

If you haven't used windows in 10 years then you miss out on what a million man hours or whatever it is can do.
Where did that come from?

I have a high-end windoze 7 machine that I built, and use every day.
But I won't let it connect to the internet because it's a malware magnet.

It's really too bad that you seem intent on declaring your view of the world as absolute gospel.
You have a personality problem, and really should seek professional help.

- Leigh

[Eric Rose]

Now if you want to see performance dump your PC - OS and load up Linux. Actually the latest Apple OS's are a linux derivative with a very nice GUI.

[Leigh]

Now if you want to see performance dump your PC - OS and load up Linux.
Actually the latest Apple OS's are a linux derivative with a very nice GUI.
Yep. +1.

I was on the Linux development team for several years. Great OS. Stable as a rock.

Some of the machines here are dual-boot with Linux and windoze.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

Linux is good too I wish more programs supported it but at least autopano does :)

Duel booting and multiple OS support is another bonus of PC's.

[Leigh]

Duel booting and multiple OS support is another bonus of PC's.
Well... Your ignorance is showing, again.

There's nothing unique about dual-booting. Macs and any other hardware architecture can do the same thing.

- Leigh

[Mike Anderson]

Now if you want to see performance dump your PC - OS and load up Linux. Actually the latest Apple OS's are a linux derivative with a very nice GUI.

OS X is based on Mach, which predates Linux.

[8x10 user]

Well I guess there is parallels and other ways to put Linux or windows on a MAC, but I would prefer to use them on a PC. It is nice that there is support for windows on apple computers.


Well... Your ignorance is showing, again.

There's nothing unique about dual-booting. Macs and any other hardware architecture can do the same thing.

- Leigh

[welly]

Duel booting and multiple OS support is another bonus of PC's.


What? Are you trying to say you can't dual boot a Mac? I've got Windows 7 and OS X running on my iMac and can boot into either. I could easily add a linux installation onto my system if I choose so and boot to any of those three operating systems.

[8x10 user]

Is Mach a form of unix? I'm not sure but I thought OS X was based on unix.


OS X is based on Mach, which predates Linux.

Truthfully I actually don't know that much about early operating systems... I'm only 26 so a lot of that is before my time.

[welly]

Well I guess there is parallels and other ways to put Linux or windows on a MAC, but I would prefer to use them on a PC. It is nice that there is support for windows on apple computers.

There is Parallels and VMware but that's not dual booting. You can install Windows or Linux outside OS X on a separate partition. For some time, PC World magazine claimed the fastest Windows laptop was a MacBook Pro.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/136649-3/in_pictures_the_most_notable_notebooks_of_2007.html

[8x10 user]

Yeah I wasn't really thinking there.


What? Are you trying to say you can't dual boot a Mac? I've got Windows 7 and OS X running on my iMac and can boot into either. I could easily add a linux installation onto my system if I choose so and boot to any of those three operating systems.

[8x10 user]

I know that windows 7 seems to work great for me for work and everyday uses. I have also had to use used NT 2000 and XP for professional applications that require legacy operating systems (which is unusual for someone my age). NT and 2000 actually work alright as host computers for various equipment that doesn't require super speed... It's just a minor PITA to configure all the drivers perfectly. Windows update still works for those old operating systems which shows pretty good support from microsoft. I have also used legacy apple computers and the also worked fine for host computer applications. The G3 and G4 seem to have a lower failure rate then many models of G5's. The mac pro should also have a lower failure rate then G5's.

Newer OS's will do a lot of driver set up work for you and older OS's won't support newer hardware all that well.

Linux 64 bit will harness the power of newer systems with more cores and lots of ram.

I don't know about laptops but the fastest PC is a PC and the fastest MAC is a PC.

[Leigh]

I don't know about laptops but the fastest PC is a PC and the fastest MAC is a PC.
Wow. Somebody's advertising dollars were well-spent on you.

I can give you a good deal on a bridge, lightly used, but with a lot of tire marks and oil spills.

- Leigh

[welly]

I know that windows 7 seems to work great for me for work and everyday uses. I have also had to use used NT 2000 and XP for professional applications that require legacy operating systems (which is unusual for someone my age). NT and 2000 actually work alright as host computers for various equipment that doesn't require super speed... It's just a minor PITA to configure all the drivers perfectly. Windows update still works for those old operating systems which shows pretty good support from microsoft. I have also used legacy apple computers and the also worked fine for host computer applications. The G3 and G4 seem to have a lower failure rate then many models of G5's. The mac pro should also have a lower failure rate then G5's.

Newer OS's will do a lot of driver set up work for you and older OS's won't support newer hardware all that well.

Linux 64 bit will harness the power of newer systems with more cores and lots of ram.

I don't know about laptops but the fastest PC is a PC and the fastest MAC is a PC.

I'm definitely done with this thread. I can guarantee that no one will change systems based on the arguments you've made, or I'll eat my hat.

[8x10 user]

I would have to say the same to you with apples multibillion ad budget... I have benchmarks and evidence on my side. Although I will admit that hackintosh build is a little bit of a grey area since its not support and might be buggy.



Wow. Somebody's advertising dollars were well-spent on you.

I can give you a good deal on a bridge, lightly used, but with a lot of tire marks and oil spills.

- Leigh

[Jim collum]

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/2/20120205_roaringcamp_48a.jpg

(ok.. sorry.. sorry.. out of context.. but >10 pages and not a single photograph.. feelings won't be hurt if removed....)
i thought i'd been transported over to Tom's Hardware site.

btw.. it was at least created with Digital Hardware.. :)

[Leigh]

I would have to say the same to you with apples multibillion ad budget...
I'm not advocating Macs. I'm just saying that you're comments about them are nonsense.
You have absolutely no understanding of what makes a computer or a computer system work.

As to your benchmarks... they're not worth the electrons they're printed with.
It's trivially easy to create a benchmark to promote or discredit any platform or hardware configuration.

- Leigh

[Leigh]

I can guarantee that no one will change systems based on the arguments you've made, or I'll eat my hat.
Your hat is safe...absolutely.

I too am done with this insanity.

- Leigh

[Jess C]

I have built several fairly high end PC's over the last several years but no more. Two years ago I purchased a glossy 27" iMac with an i7 processor and since that day I have never looked back. I got tired of spending more and more time getting rid of and protecting against malware, viruses, etc. that I finally decided enough was enough. Yeah, I know, Macs are not completely immune to such things but I have never had any down time on my Mac in the two plus years because of the crap a windows based machine is a constant target of.

When and if my Mac ever craps out I will happily go back to the Apple store and buy a new Mac.

[Larry Gebhardt]

I have had a really bad experience with apple's G5 quad core computer and it has turned me into a hardcore PC enthusiast. I don't know why people buy mac computers. They are overpriced and you can build a much higher quality PC on your own. I know there are a lot of Mac users in this forum and I just don't get it. What is so great about a mac?

Inside it is just a regular nothing special PC, at best it is only slightly better then the very worse prebuilt PC's. There are much much better parts out there to build your own PC, and some companies actually sell prebuilt PC's with top tier parts.

For example there are dozens of companies always competing to produce the best possible cooling systems. Every year new innovative CPU coolers are brought to the market that surpass last years best. There are plenty of review sites that show actual benchmarks proving which CPU cooler is the best. It is said that a reduction of 1 degree Celsius increases the life of a CPU by 10%. Wouldn't you want the most efficient highest quality CPU cooler in your system? The stuff apple uses is no where near competitive with whats on the market. Why use a stock CPU cooler when a high end one might run your system 20 degrees cooler?

I just don't get it. Is it that the buyers of apple computers just don't know better or that they don't want to do any research into quality PC options?

I have not read the previous posts, but I buy Macs because I need a good operating system for both development and photo editing. I need to use a unix based system for the development, but Photoshop and Lightroom don't run on Linux. Mac OS-X fits the bill.

Also, the hardware is generally fairly well made and lasts quite well. It also holds it's value better than PCs so if you upgrade every 2 years it's actually as cheap, or probably cheaper to buy Macs.

And yes, I have built PCs in the past. It easy to put together a really nice desktop computer. If you can run linux it can even have a decent operating system. But I'm not very happy with the laptops from most of the manufacturers. The ones that are decent cost as much as a Mac. The rest are mostly plastic feeling pieces of crap. So why not buy a Mac?

The last servers I bought were Dells and ran Linux. So I'm not anti PC. I do not like Windows and every time I need to support someone running it I feel much better about buying a Mac.

[Jeff Dexheimer]

haha, I can't believe this! I'll bite too.

I was a PC (read linux) user to my core. I swore by it until and loved using it. I built my own computers and had several laptops. I usually ran dual systems of Linux and Windows., but sometimes one or the other, depending on need

Then, my work gave me a macbook. At first is was awkward and uncomfortable. In short time I learned the system. It was easy. The computer simply works. No more BSOD, no frozen programs, no more control+alt+delete. THe mouse pad is smooth and works like a dream. The screen quality is incredible, its fast, the battery lasts forever, file and folder navigation is simple, the computer fit and finish is second to none. In other words I am converted to mac after years of using windows.

Of course I still recognize that many people enjoy their Windows computers and so they should. That's what market selection is all about. Thank God neither company has a monopoly on the OS market.

[Mike Anderson]

Is Mach a form of unix? I'm not sure but I thought OS X was based on unix.


Mach is one of many Unix-like systems.

[MisterPrinter]

Apple have made some dogs over the years, powerbooks with kamikazi screen hinges and LCD panels that popped regularly, "Intelligent" batteries that decided they were dead and needed an app to revive them, sealed water-cooling systems that unsealed themselves in a cloud of anti-freeze, CR-ROM slots that got bent so easily and jammed CDs inside, macs that lose the time and date randomly even with brand new batteries, models that sucked every bit of dust out of a room and choked themselves to death, processors that were so power-hungry the cooling fans sound like a jump-jet. And remember the horrible iBook clamshell, all curved edges but containing industry standard square components so in fact it ended up with spacewasting empty parts.

Then there's backwards compatibility, or rather there isn't.

On the other hand, the "Bowling Ball" and "Quicksilver" G4s were the most reliable machines I have ever maintained, some I know of ran for many many years without a hiccup except for battery replacements. And OSX, it just works ( as long as you have the right hardware for the version ).

I currently use 2 x G5 DP2.7 to run my scanners ( stitching is done in the mac so needs a bit of power ), and I must admit that I am moving towards using those machines for general use too if I can afford the electricity bill.

[Rick A]

Dear 8x10user
After reading this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you have "opened mouth A, and inserted foot B-and C" not to mention every one elses feet into your yap. Why do you insist your Honda loaded with every bolt on aftermarket accessory is better than my Porsch 911? I bought my first Mac in the 80's and have owned several. Now I own a PC and want to beat it with a BFH on a regular basis, and have ordered a new G5 quad.

[Ari]

Yawn...
Mac>PC
Film>digital
Coke>Pepsi
...and so forth...or maybe I have them all backwards.

Now, where were we?

[CP Goerz]

You forgot tastes great>less filling.....;-)

[MisterPrinter]

Dear 8x10user
After reading this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you have "opened mouth A, and inserted foot B-and C" not to mention every one elses feet into your yap. Why do you insist your Honda loaded with every bolt on aftermarket accessory is better than my Porsch 911? I bought my first Mac in the 80's and have owned several. Now I own a PC and want to beat it with a BFH on a regular basis, and have ordered a new G5 quad.

Probably not the best analogy, a Honda sports car of the same price as your 911 would kick its' ass.

[Mike Anderson]

Probably not the best analogy, a Honda sports car of the same price as your 911 would kick its' ass.

That's true. A Prelude would blow away a 911 on a mountain road. (Let's get this battle started again :)).

[Jess C]

Yawn...
Mac>PC
Film>digital
Coke>Pepsi
...and so forth...or maybe I have them all backwards.

Now, where were we?


Coke, of course. Sheesh!

[Ari]

Coke, of course. Sheesh!

I know that, and you know that, but don't tell the Pepsi guys; they can get very defensive.

[Nathan Potter]

Whew! To paraphrase Hollis: "Huh, OK, keep moving".

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Jim Andrada]

I was really tempted t forget this thread when by chance I came across an rather well balanced assessment in Information Week.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/global-cio/interviews/240002933?cid=nl_IW_week_2012-07-02_html&elq=fffcfd5af9fa473480f87e8f4219bf67

I think that says it all quite nicely

[Kuzano]

Well... twelve pages so far on a computer post that has no real relevance to large format photography, and that no one can win.

As soon as I see this on slow down, would you all mind if I post a "Film vs Digital" post?

[Andrew O'Neill]

Mac has a better operating system... and I LOVE expose & spaces mode.

[Brian Ellis]

I love my Apple - stock. I love my PC - computer (but I'm sure I'd love an Apple computer just as well, nix nox as far as I'm concerned). .

[Eric Rose]

Please someone give me a Macbook Pro so I can experience some Apple bliss! Really, I'm not joking. I can't afford to buy one but I'm sure some one on this board has a few extra bucks giggling around in their pockets that could be put to good use.

[roresteen]

Frank -

"Same for the OS, on the Mac they've tested and considered it far deeper than Windows, and if you watch an experienced Mac user with a reasonable system, they can fly through stuff at least as fast or better than a similarly experienced PC user with a system of the same value."

My experience has been the exact opposite. I often have said anything you can do on a Mac, you can do faster and cheaper on a PC. That's coming from a Mac/PC household of over 17 years. I have been in the trenches with both systems, literally fixing and repairing many hardware and software issues from both. Despite the hype that it is *easier* to use a Mac, I have found neither OS is immune to stupidity and or planned obsolescence by design. The examples are too many to get into here.

After using the very first Mac in 1984 and several Mac systems since then up to System 9, I have found nothing spectacular about Mac OS 10. I think your statement is relative to the ability of the individual user and their level of experience with the given OS. I know many a photographer who use PC's for extensive and heavy post process work load in both Lightroom 3/4 as well as CS5 PS with a PC. I doubt there are any here that could work any faster or "easier" just because they are on Mac OSX. It used to be, pre-Windows XP Pro SP3, that there were many advantages using a Mac both from a system perspective and of the specific ports of Photoshop, Illustrator and other image editing/creating programs. But times have changed, lines have blurred and the operational advantages Apple once could claim simple do not exist anymore, other than the particular bias and sense of familiarity the end user has with their Mac.

But at the end of the day, like your camera/lens/medium, use what makes you happy.

[Gary Tarbert]

I love my Apple - stock. I love my PC - computer (but I'm sure I'd love an Apple computer just as well, nix nox as far as I'm concerned). .I am the same as you brian , But just quietly i have a very real love hate relationship with technology. Oh btw i use mac but i wont fight to death over it . Cheers Gary

[Gary Tarbert]

Please someone give me a Macbook Pro so I can experience some Apple bliss! Really, I'm not joking. I can't afford to buy one but I'm sure some one on this board has a few extra bucks giggling around in their pockets that could be put to good use.if you listen to AC /DC in the darkroom you are on a Highway to hell;)
Cheers Gary

[Lenny Eiger]

After using the very first Mac in 1984 and several Mac systems since then up to System 9, I have found nothing spectacular about Mac OS 10. snip... But times have changed, lines have blurred and the operational advantages Apple once could claim simple do not exist anymore, other than the particular bias and sense of familiarity the end user has with their Mac.

rersteen,

What you are saying is blatantly incorrect. I have "early adopter's disease" and put up a server farm in 2002 with OS 10.1. It was hard to use, you had to do a lot of things in the Unix terminal app. In OS 9 we had to restart the servers once a month as they would fill up their buffers and crash. (Kinda like NT.) The OS X servers have been going for 10 years straight, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. It is true that new machines have been added and we have upgraded to the new OS'es as they were made available. But I have had a 10-year period with no need to ever restart one of my servers. They have never crashed!

OS X is so much more stable its ridiculous. I am currently running, in addition to the very buggy PhotoShop CS6, 15 other programs. This is not an approximation, I just counted. The Mac switches easily between them whenever I need to. My Mac doesn't go down. I leave it on all the time. You simply couldn't do this with OS 9.

Nothing is perfect. I can complain about one or another issues with the interface. However, basing the OS on UNIX was the best thing that Jobs ever did.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

Dakota,
If you have 3 computers die in a month - of any sort, then its statistically likely that it isn't the computers. It is likely some electrical lines with a lot of variance. A voltage regulator would solve this problem. I have not had a Mac computer die on me in 27 years. I know that people do have issues, but I haven't had one. If you had 3 in a row, and an issue with an HP as well, I'd suspect the electricity....

Lenny

[Leigh]

Dakota...

I agree with Lenny. You have a power line problem.

Some years ago I did a consulting job for IBM (their big stuff, not PCs), and was amazed to find that almost half of the volume
of their computer products was occupied by the power supply. No wonder those things never failed.

Unfortunately modern consumer computers (of any brand) use cheap dinky power supplies that have no resistance to
power line surges, and those supposed "surge protector strips" aren't worth the cardboard they're packaged in.

- Leigh

[gth]

Man that was fun...... in a root canal kind of way...

Personally, I think 8x10 user is actually Frank Petronio kicking shit behind his dual screen mini and "Teethnasher" Leigh is a very bored Nun.

Nahh, that's not it, 8x10 user and Leigh are (is?) THE SAME PERSON. SysOp can you check their Ips?

It's possible, one summer in college I had a room mate that was at least two people.... when he left early I could hear two people talking walking by my window...

Oh, well, it's HOT!