Ancient color techniques

[Martin Patek-Strutsky]

Recently saw a 'three color gum print' (or however you call that in english) by Heinrich Kuehn made in 1903, which impressed me quite a lot. You will find a similar print reproduced in Beaumont Newhalls 'History of Photography'.

Has anyone experimented with ancient (color) pigment transfer processes or with dye transfer recently?

How much hassle is involved in using those techniques today? Could it be done by a fairly talented printer or should it be left to the real darkroom masters?

Besides the different look what would be the difference in terms of longevity compared to C-prints or Ilfochromes?

Regards Martin

[Brian Ellis]

Plenty of people make gum prints in multiple colors. I've done a little of it. I found it to be quite a hassle, mainly because the colors are laid down in separate exposure/development/drying/new exposure etc. steps, i.e. there's a separate exposure and development process for each color. Each separate exposure must be in register with the previous exposures. However, the paper obviously must dry in between each exposure and the wetting/drying steps tend to cause the paper to expand and then contract, all of which can make accurate registration difficult.

To minimize those problems most papers have to be sized before they are used for printing. Sizing in 100 degree water isn't fun and also the wet paper is left hanging around while it dries. If you're starting from scratch from the sizing step to the final print you're probably looking at taking three or four days to make a print with three or four colors. Not that the time by itself is a problem, but you have to hang the paper somewhere to dry after sizing and in between each exposure so it helps to have a set up where all of this can be done in a single space which I didn't have. I ended up with wet paper in various stages of drying hanging in a garage and two bathrooms.

All in all it wasn't a process I enjoyed though many people do. There is definitely something very beautiful and unusual about a well done gum print. I don't think you have to be a darkroom master to do gum printing, it just takes some time to read about how to do it and then a lot of experience to be able to predict the results in advance.

I doubt that anyone is experimenting with dye transfer since Kodak discontinued the materials some years ago. I think there are people still doing it with an old supply or possibly they're making they're own but it doesn't seem like an area in which there would be much experimentation going on by people new to the process. However others know more about this than I do.

I have no idea about longivity. My problem is making photographs that are worth preserving for a long period of time. Once I get that part down I'll start worrying about how to preserve them.

[Mark_3632]

Jim Browning is doing it. Go to:

http://www.dyetransfer.org

He has a PDF file that explains things. I found it quite informative. SOmeday I might try it.

[John O'Connell]

Gum:

http://www.livick.com

Plenty of people still do gum printing. Full color gum is more unusual than the monochrome or duotone process, but still practiced.

Tri-color carbons are also still produced, though carbon is a little more difficult.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Last weekend I saw a demonstration of the dye transfer process by Jim Browning, as well as some of his, and other's, prints. His prints are some of the nicest color work I have ever seen. After seeing his work I am planning on trying it also.

[Bill_1856]

It's no big deal today, but at the turn of the last century photographic materials were color blind, and no sensitive to the red end of the light spectrum (not panchromatic). I don't know how the heck they did it in those days.

[Kaatharine Thayer]

I am a gum printer; I worked almost exclusively in tricolor in the 90s but I got bored with it and don't do many tricolors now. My website, which is mostly educational for gum printers but has two galleries of selected images on it:

http://www.pacifier.com/~kthayer/

[Kaatharine Thayer]

Sorry, I guess I didn't read Martin's whole post before responding to the question about whether anyone is doing these techniques today. Here's my answer to the other two questions he poses:

(1) Can a fairly talented printer do it? Sure, although being fairly talented in silver-gel printing won't necessarily give you a leg up on gum printing, as it's a whole different kind of printing. It's more a matter of persistence than anything else, just being willing to put in the time necessary to get an intuitive feel for the materials and how they work together.

(2) Longevity: The image consists of gum arabic and pigment, and as long as you take care to select permanent pigments, the print will last as long as a watercolor painting, in other words, a heck of a lot longer than a C-print or Ilfochrome.

[Scott Walton]

Go to Ed Buffalo's site at www.unblinkingeye.com for a good amount of info and examples.

[Darin Cozine]

A good source for alternative processes is:

http://www.alternativephotography.com/

[Paul Metcalf]

Dye transfer materials are no longer available except through a few photographers with personal inventory. Ctein is probably the best (http://ctein.com/)

[David A. Goldfarb]

I saw some interesting multi-layer gum prints by Ernestine Ruben recently:

http://www.johnstevenson-gallery.com/ruben_2003_tn.html

It doesn't attempt to produce accurate color, but explores the medium in interesting ways. It doesn't transfer well to the web, but if there's a show in your vicinity, it's worth seeing.

[tim o'brien]

Knowing that nothing stops Paul from trying this except for access to the materials, I submit this:

http://www.jandcphotography.com/dyetransfermatrix.htm

No excuses now.

tim in san jose

[Kaatharine Thayer]

P.S. Longevity of dye-transfer prints compared to Ilfochrome: According to Wilhelm's data, dye-transfer prints are like Ilfochrome, in that they are long-term stable only if kept in the dark. When exposed to light (fluorescent light for 12 hours a day) the dye-transfer prints' longevity was predicted to be 32 years under glass, 21 years under glass plus UV filter, (yes, that's the way the numbers appear in the table) and 8 years if left uncovered. The Ilfochrome prints under the same conditions were estimated at 29 years under glass, 33 years under glass plus UV filter, and 21 years uncovered.

These data are from the book, which is now 11 years old, but I doubt there's anything more recent on dye-transfer since the book was published the year Kodak discontinued the dye-transfer materials.

[tim atherton]

"These data are from the book, which is now 11 years old, but I doubt there's anything more recent on dye-transfer since the book was published the year Kodak discontinued the dye-transfer materials."

Wilhems book is the standard text on the subject, found on every Conservators and Archivists bokshelf

It's full of fascinating stuff, and the whole book is now avaialble as a massive 80mb or so download.

The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/book_toc.html

as well as so,e interesting stuff on sub-zero storage

[tim atherton]

as well as some interesting stuff on sub-zero storage

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/subzero.html

[Bill_1856]

I have a Dye Transfer print of my mother carrying a basket of flowers, from a Kodachrome original made in the early 1050's, which has hung on the walls of my many different homes in normal Florida indirect daylight and artificial lighting. If there are any signs of fading, I can't detect them. Cibachromes from the mid 1970s seem to have not faded, but actually darkened a little, except for those which were oversprayed with lacquer and still appear unchanged.

[tim atherton]

"from a Kodachrome original made in the early 1050's"

Now that's longevity...

[Donal Taylor]

Ancient colour techniques indeed - that beats my 1066 Anscochrome shot of Harold at Hastings with the arrow in his eye...

[Martin Patek-Strutsky]

Wow, today I came back from a trip and saw all your highly valuable feedback. Thats why I love this forum.

Thanks a lot! Martin

[Bill_1856]

Oh My Gawd! We just celebrated her 100th birthday this past July. I had no idea! Wonder how old I really am? Hmmm....