Looking for some recommendations, portraits and 1:1 macros

[okcomputer]

My first post here, I've spent the last week admiring the photos on the various portraits threads.

I had a brief fling with LF in the past. I had nice Shen Hao with a 150mm Caltar lens. My attempts at developing 4x5 film in a Yankee tank were not so great, and I sold the whole kit around the time Polaroid 55 was discontinued.

Now, I'd like to have another go at it. This time around, I think I'd like to get a monorail style camera as I'd like more positive locks on the movement and a more solid feel overall than a wooden field camera. I intend to use it indoors or around the house 75% of the time. A used Sinar F2 is in my budget, and I may hold out for a P if I can find one.

My questions: What focal length should I get that would work good for both portraits and 1:1 macros? Will the cameras I mentioned above have enough belows extension for macro? Any other factors I should consider?

I'll attach a photo below which represent about as close as I could get with the Shen Hao/150mm combination. I'd like to be able to get a little closer in this time around.

Thanks!

http://monochromal.com/files/orchid_2.jpg

[Mark Sawyer]

For a traditional portrait lens, you want a longer focal length, about 180mm to 240mm for 4x5. Unfortunately, for macro work you need a shorter lens due to the long bellows extension required. so you'll need two different lenses.

On the bright side, there are pretty good inexpensive alternatives for both. I'd suggest an enlarger lens, small process lens, or copy lens (like the Tominon) for macro/close-up work. These are optimized for close distances, and you may not need a shutter as you'll likely be working at small stops for depth of field, (very shallow at short range). Be sure you get a lens that will stop down quite a ways, which may be an issue with enlarger lenses. Probably something in the 90mm to 130mm range.

For portraits, I'd just start watching for a conventional 210mm-ish lens, one of the most common sizes.

[rince]

Hi,
I started out with a 150mm Nikkor. It is ok for 1:1 reproduction since you need roughly twice the length of bellows, than the focal length, making 150 barely fitting on my view camera with 360 mm bellows draw max. For portraits 150mm is starting to be okay-ish, but it did not take me long before I gave in and bought a 210mm ...

[Ken Lee]

A Sinar is an excellent choice: being a modular design, you can add extension and bellows ad infinitum - and the gear is readily available on the used market.

I have a Sinar P and use a 210mm Macro Sinaron. It's an older design, no longer made, and available used. It's very sharp, and opens to f/5.6 which helps when making macro or close photos.

Officially, it is corrected for anything from 1:3 to 3:1, but unofficially, I have found it to be extremely sharp even at infinity. Even within the official range (or close to it) a 1:3 subject is around 12 x 15 inches in size. If we allow 1:5, then we're dealing with "portrait" sized subjects.

As you probably know, the neighborhood of 210mm is popular on 4x5 for portraits: long enough to give a flattering perspective, but not so long that we struggle for adequate depth of field.

Another option is a 240mm Fujinon A, which is optimized for 1:5 and works very well at close distance as well as infinity. It opens to f/9 which can be dark at 1:1, because then the lens effectively becomes f/18 due to the bellows draw being 2x normal. It's a very popular lens because it's small, light, takes small filters (52mm) and is a superb performer at all distances.

If you put a Sinar Copal Shutter on your camera, you can get cheaper lenses that are offered without shutters. You can get a very sharp APO Nikkor or Ronar for close work, and a softer Tessar or Heliar or a vintage lens for portraits.

You might find it helpful to see http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php for more information and sample photos made with a variety of lenses, including the ones mentioned here.

[okcomputer]

Great, thanks for the feedback, guys!

Ken, I've been to your website before. For many of the nature shots, did you use your Sinar P? How is it for field use?

Thanks

[Michael Alpert]

It opens to f/9 which can be dark at 1:1, because then the lens effectively becomes f/18 due to the bellows draw being 2x normal.

Ken,

I don't think you mean to suggest that the aperture would become, in effect, f/18. With the Fuji lens fully open, the bellows draw would be one f-stop below f/9, which would be somewhere around f/12 or f/13. Yes?

[Jim Andrada]

I believe there is a 2 stop compensation required for 1:1 thus f/18

[mdm]

A 180mm Fujinon A is much less expensive than a 240mm which is used by deep pocketed 8x10 people. A 240mm Ronar might be the ticket if you have enough bellows, very sharp for macro and excellent for portraits too, also inexpensive.

[Ken Lee]

For many of the nature shots, did you use your Sinar P? How is it for field use?

Walking a moderate distance from the car or residence, for me the Sinar is ideal because when arriving at the scene, all movements and options are possible and it's solid, rigid, and resistant to damage from the elements. If it weighed nothing, I'd only use the Sinar P for all purposes.

I have walked with the Sinar P for several miles, carrying it in a canvas tote-bag, but that can get tiresome. I don't use a backpack, but cheap solutions like beverage coolers. For real field use - walking long distances - a smaller and lighter kit is often preferable, so I now use a Tachihara Field Camera. There are other field cameras with greater bellows draw and movements, but the Tachihara has been lucky, so I went back to if after shooting with others.

[bob carnie]

Can I ask of the lens Gurus what lens length or type would be needed for a Century 8x10 studio.
It has lots of bellows draw , currently I have a 480mm on it and I would like to do larger magnifications of small objects.
Also who here on this site would be the right person to ask about purchase??

[Ken Lee]

Can I ask of the lens Gurus what lens length or type would be needed for a Century 8x10 studio.
It has lots of bellows draw , currently I have a 480mm on it and I would like to do larger magnifications of small objects.
Also who here on this site would be the right person to ask about purchase??

Not a Guru - only a chela (student) but with 480mm of bellows draw, a 240mm lens (or shorter) will get you 1:1. Again, the Fujinon A, APO Ronar, APO Nikkor, fall into this category, as do the real Macro lenses like G-Claron, Macro Sironar, Macro Symmar, Macro Nikkor.

The Fujinon A lenses are a clever hybrid design: f/9 for compactness, plasmat design for wide coverage and excellent correction, corrected close enough to be suitable for macro, but also for infinity.

Process lenses have been described by some experts as optimal for flat subjects, and real macro lenses as best for 3-dimensional subjects. That's probably true, but may appear only under the most rigorous scrutiny. I've used both kinds interchangeably, and not been able to detect any difference, at my admitedly lower level of requirements. The f/5.6 plasmat macros will be brighter to shoot, easier to focus, with widest coverage and the ability to use the most view camera movements, as in table-top product photography. The f/9 process lenses will offer less coverage, and greater difficulty in focusing under dim light.

At double extension, image circle increases to 2x what we get at infinity: many "4x5" lenses will cover 8x10 at that point. The Nikkor Macro lenses don't even cover adequately until used at macro distance: they are really intended for macro only.

All that being said, with 8x10 your image quality will be very high and you may not notice the difference between ordinary lenses and those designed for close work, unless you enlarge a bit. If your prints are small, then almost any lens will do, like an old Tessar that opens to f/4.5 (helpful for focus).

One other consideration is the inter-relation of subject distance, focal length, and perspective. Shorter lenses will make it easy to get in close for higher magnification, but will introduce foreshortening. Normal-to-longer lenses are often preferred for that reason, even though they require more bellows extension.

For that reason, on 8x10 you might want to consider 300mm or longer, or simply shoot a smaller format and appreciate the greater depth of field you will get. :cool: If you stick a 5x7 or 4x5 adapter on that back of the Century, the same 480mm bellows will give you plenty of additional magnification.

[James Hughes]

My first post here, I've spent the last week admiring the photos on the various portraits threads.

I had a brief fling with LF in the past. I had nice Shen Hao with a 150mm Caltar lens. My attempts at developing 4x5 film in a Yankee tank were not so great, and I sold the whole kit around the time Polaroid 55 was discontinued.

Now, I'd like to have another go at it. This time around, I think I'd like to get a monorail style camera as I'd like more positive locks on the movement and a more solid feel overall than a wooden field camera. I intend to use it indoors or around the house 75% of the time. A used Sinar F2 is in my budget, and I may hold out for a P if I can find one.

My questions: What focal length should I get that would work good for both portraits and 1:1 macros? Will the cameras I mentioned above have enough belows extension for macro? Any other factors I should consider?

I'll attach a photo below which represent about as close as I could get with the Shen Hao/150mm combination. I'd like to be able to get a little closer in this time around.

Thanks!


Howdy okcomputer!

I'm still pretty new to LF photography, so take my words with a grain of salt... I'd say that you can't go too wrong with a get a Sinar F or two and a lens in the 120-210 range. As others have mentioned, you'll probably wind up with something like a 135-150 and a 210 if you're interested in both macro and portraiture.

Personally, I've gotten my grubby hands on a pair of Sinar Fs. Each set came with a regular and wide bellows, and some rail extenders... I haven't done it yet, but unless I am way wrong, I should be able to daisy-chain everything together;) Even if I never do that to any good use, I've still got replacement pieces in case something goes wrong.

For development, you might consider the BTZS tubes. If you're on a budget (aren't we all;)?), they are a spendy option. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXQO5ATgiY) Once I'm done spinning the BTZS tubes, the film goes in a stop bath and then into a tank for fixing, etc... I don't see why you couldn't used trays for developer and stop and then fix in a tank if you wanted to. (I'm suggesting this so that you use what you might have and also spend less time in the dark.)

Oh! If you haven't read it already, the page about bellows extension at http://www.largeformatphotography.info/bellows-factor.html is great. There are a number of explanations. If you don't have a preferred way (or if your current way makes your head spin) to work out exposure compensation, you can read the many ways and pick the one that works for you! (I'm a mathematician, and it took me a few minutes thinking about the inverse square law to get things completely straight. I really like the method that Nicholas Hanks and John Cook describe.)

Other than that, don't sweat the gear. Have fun, and post your new macro/flower pictures in the Image Sharing section. It looks like your stuff's gonna rock!

[bob carnie]

thanks for the great response Ken... I want to keep on 8x10 film as its very easy to work with , in the darkroom its a breeze to handle with my big ass enlarger.

[Bob Salomon]

What kind of portraits?

Environmental? Head and Shoulders? Full Length? 2/3 or 3/4?

Each would usually use a different focal length lens.

In studio or out? How much distance do you have to work in? All of these will determine which focal lengths will be best in your case. If you try doing a head and shoulders shot with a normal focal length lens you will have significant foreshortening which will result in large noses, foreheads, chins, etc.

If you try doing a full length in the studion with a lens best for a head and shoulders you may not have enough room to capture the shot.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

portraits and 1:1 macros

Hello from France!

Here is a link to some images that are both portraits and 1:1 macros ;)
http://trichromie.free.fr/trichromie/index.php?post/2010/02/20/Hug
...
http://trichromie.free.fr/trichromie/index.php?post/2010/05/06/Ve
.. and many similar pages on the same blog

Taken with a 7" Aero-Ektar, film format 8x10".

Disclaimer: posting this web pointer here does not imply that I agree with, nor appreciate, the technique used by the author, Henri Gaud, who is a friend, but can't we disagree with friends ?