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Pete Watkins
6-May-2012, 12:43
I feel really stupid asking this but I appear to have bought a Norma and for the life of me I can't see how to fit the extension rail onto the existing rail.
HELP
Pete.

Frank Petronio
6-May-2012, 12:49
Unscrew the end cap(s), line both up, screw it on by twisting the plastic knob on the extension rail.

Steven Tribe
6-May-2012, 13:02
Pete - your problem could be that the set is mounted on an extension rail - rather than a standard rail!
I don't think an extension rail fits into an extension rail.

Frank Petronio
6-May-2012, 13:11
You can keep extending the extensions to infinity but only one end has the threads. And you can't add a cap to the open/female end of an extension rail used as the main base rail.

If someone sold you a Sinar with only extension rails, you can still use it but you got a little bit gypped. That's the downside, often people build these cameras from leftover interchangeable parts....

Clive Gray
6-May-2012, 13:24
The base rails have a black plastic end that does not rotate you can add extention rails which have a red plastic end that freely rotates at one end to either end of a base rail. Joining extention rails together is arkward you can do it if you can hold the threaded rod in the open end still enough, however the approved way to do this is to use a specail rail end cap 428.31.000 it makes life a lot easier.

Sinar page for the rails (http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/accessories/60-sinar-p3-zubehoer/195-kamerabasis)


Any rail from any era is interchangable (with the exception of the Alpina rail)

Hermes07
6-May-2012, 18:55
I don't think I've ever owned a standard rail. All my rails (14 of them) are extension rails. Can't say it's hindered me.

jonreid
6-May-2012, 20:27
Should the red plastic end of my extension rail turn? I think its seized...

Frank Petronio
6-May-2012, 20:36
It should turn....

jonreid
6-May-2012, 21:19
Ok. I'll hit it with some WD40

Pete Watkins
7-May-2012, 01:23
Thanks for all your help. I've got the same problem as jonreid, the red plastic bit is jammed (glad that I'm not alone). The camera is complete and as bought by a company who were the original owners. It was left laying about for years and the bloke who sold it to me left it laying about for at least 20 years so it needs freeing up a lot.
Thanks again,
Pete.

jonreid
7-May-2012, 03:12
Pete, there's an excellent Sinr Norma CLA tutorial, in either text or video form, on the web. Search Norma CLA guide. I'd recommend either reading the whole document or watching the entire video before diving in, just so you know what your getting into.

Jon

jonreid
7-May-2012, 03:13
PS: it doesn't address stuck rails. I'll disassemble mine tonight and put some WD40 on everything and report back...

jonreid
7-May-2012, 03:27
Hi Frank,
Are you sure? Under the red end of my 6inch extension is this countersunk screw which goes into the red plastic and prevents it from turning. Is this a modification do you think?

Jon


73248

jose angel
7-May-2012, 04:41
This part should turn... or not. Is there inside the tube a threaded stick? If so, this part should turn, if not, it should not turn.
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Edit: There are many many versions including loads of user modifications. I have this end in both "turn" and "not turn" versions, both with and without the screw (un-and-modified versions, I mean).

Frank Petronio
7-May-2012, 04:41
I just went down and checked and the all the red knobs on my extension rails turn. The base rail has black knobs on each end that do not turn. Perhaps you have an oddity assembled from parts or ?

jose angel
7-May-2012, 05:02
From what I see, screw + pseudo-triangular red end, my guess is that this is a modified, original bar with a replaced plastic end. There are many modified "thingies" out there (easy to break if improperly used, or even when the mounted camera is stored in its own case... )

I`d say original ones have the screw but doesn`t have that "pseudo-triangular" shape (but a six-sided knob), while more modern ones doesn`t have the screw, and have the triangular knob (the one at the photo).

Anyway, and Frank says, it should turn! (Specially because there should be that threaded stick inside... you need to turn it!)

jose angel
7-May-2012, 05:15
Wait... looking at the photo I`d say it could be a full new "part" instead of a "mixed" one (the screw is oddly placed too much closer to the rim); if so, this screw should not be there. This screw could have been placed by someone for whatever... like to lock the knob (?) to use it as a "standard" rail. Who knows. In the older versions, there should be three screws around the rim. Are them around yours?.
Again, check first if there is a threaded stick inside, and tell us.

Frank Petronio
7-May-2012, 05:24
What else is going on with that camera? Did some Aussie swindler take advantage? I heard that England shipped all their criminals to Australia, I'd never buy a camera from an Australian ;-p

Seriously, some of the Sinar cameras for sale were assembled from odd parts rather than being whole items unto themselves, and sometimes people don't know any better or try to get away with kludges. That happens in NY a lot.... Sorry you had to find out the hard way.

jose angel
7-May-2012, 05:44
True, but not an issue at all for Jonreid... :) If the camera is in working condition, that`s fine...
As mentioned above, you can work with -only- extension rails. The original standard rails leaved space inside for a ruler and the accessory bar; not needed actually for shooting.

Frank Petronio
7-May-2012, 05:49
A friend used to stash joints in the base rail for travel. Imagine finishing a complex shoot, unscrewing the the cap and toking up!

jonreid
7-May-2012, 06:11
Hang on Frank. Now I'm even more confused. Your 'base' rail has black screw thingies at both ends? As in two 'male' ends?

My base rail, not the one pictured, has one red screw thingie (which does turn).
Seems I might not have a base rail but two extension rails. One long. One short.

Sincerely,
Confused-Down-Under

Frank Petronio
7-May-2012, 06:29
You could complain about that to the seller. If you paid a premium price for it from a quality seller then they will either take it back or give you some compensation so you could purchase a base rail on eBay (for under $100).

But if you paid a low price and the seller is not willing to do anything for you, then I wouldn't worry about it since you can still make pictures? You should be able to screw the two rail together easily - you can do it drunk, blind, one-handed, with your tongue....

I guess you have to figure out if the two rails you have can be used together or not. If not then you have more to complain about. Why don't you post pictures of what you have and describe the problem in a brief description and then you'll get definite answers.

jose angel
7-May-2012, 06:36
My base rail, not the one pictured, has one red screw thingie (which does turn).
So it`s an extension rail. With a threaded stick inside.

Seems I might not have a base rail but two extension rails. One long. One short.
That`s fine. This is all what you need. Extension rails have two functions, base rails only one. The only issue is that an extension rail need to be locked to work as a base rail, but this looks to be already done.:D

jonreid
7-May-2012, 06:40
I have joined them together. I can only screw the longer one into the little one, because of the screw issue. I tried that funky folding technique you linked to but couldn't get the standards far enough apart without using both rails.

The seller is a funny guy. Seems to be sitting on a ton of gear that he sells in dribs and drabs via a little magazine. Never sells online. I'll speak to him about it as I was going to pick up another 4x5 Norma. If I remember correctly it had a rail with a red screw thingie too, which is what made me think that was correct.

To the original poster, sorry for hi-jacking your thread.

Jon

jonreid
7-May-2012, 06:44
Thanks Jose, you posted while I was typing.

Struan Gray
7-May-2012, 07:10
Jon - I keep my Norma on a 6" extension rail anyway, with a 12" in the bag. I expect someone modified your rail with the screw so that it would be easier to attach additional extension when used this way.

There is room for the two rail carriers and the rail clamp on a 6" rail, so one option is to slide everything onto that rail, detach the longer rail and stow it, and then remove the rail clamp from the tripod head and stow the camera, with lens attached.

I used to do that, but now I do something a little different. I slide both standards and the clamp onto the 6" rail, and stow the 12" extension as before. then I loosen off the standard rail carriers before unscrewing the rail clamp so that it is completely loose, but not undone. Then you can pull the front standard off the rail, pull the rear standard and rail so that the rail slides out of the clamp, and then pop the front standard back onto the rail again. It's a bit like playing a button accordion, but without the clog dancing. The advantage is that you can attach the rail clamp securely to the tripod head, and you get a smaller camera block to stow in your pack.

A 6" rail is fine for a 90 mm, and for a 150 at normal landscape distances. I almost always use a 240 mm or longer, but when I'm only carrying shorter lenses I leave the longer extension at home.

Frank Petronio
7-May-2012, 07:42
I just keep the rail clamp on the tripod head all the time, leaving the plastic spacer on the rail. Works like a quick release system.

Struan Gray
7-May-2012, 08:49
I tried that too. The Norma clamp needs to be completely unlatched from the rail before you can lift the rail-and-plastic-spacer out. I found it would scrape against the underside of the bellows - not least because I like to set full fall on both standards before stowing, which means the upright posts protect the whole of the bellows.

But there ain't no rules.

Pete Watkins
7-May-2012, 11:25
Well, thanks again. I've ended up removing the rod from the extension rail (I seem to have a lot of obscure spanners stashed away, I'm in shock!) and using a fair amount of abrasive paper on the red plastic bit to reduce it's diameter, it now works. I'm assuming that the tube has recieved a bang in the past and is slightly out of round.
Pete.

Jimi
7-May-2012, 15:02
The base rails have a black plastic end that does not rotate /.../

For the record, mine does, but only the black plastic part. When I move it, the rotation eventually blocks the small hole on top of the rail with what looks like and feels like a ball bearing. No idea why, though.

jose angel
8-May-2012, 01:03
Jimi, if the black part rotates, is more likely (1.) because there is something wrong, or (2.) you are maybe working on the tube cap, which has a ball to be locked into the hole.
I find my answer too obvious, my excuses, but I don`t understand how this could be. Is that black part removable? (e.g. pushing down that ball, and rotating it outwards?).

Struan Gray
8-May-2012, 01:04
FWIW, the red bit on the 6" rail I have would not fit inside my other extensions when I bought it. I got a friendly machinist to gently reduce the diameter with the cap mounted on a lathe. It's possible that the resin/plastic used by Sinar in those days can swell with age.

Struan Gray
8-May-2012, 01:10
Jimi, if the black part rotates, is more likely (1.) because there is something wrong, or (2.) you are maybe working on the tube cap, which has a ball to be locked into the hole.
I find my answer too obvious, my excuses, but I don`t understand how this could be. Is that black part removable? (e.g. pushing down that ball, and rotating it outwards?).

The Norma base rails (at least, some of them) did not have the two fixed black end caps found on later Sinar base rails.

One end was a fixed black knob which does not rotate. There was an Al cap which screwed over it when not in use, which provides an extra inch or so of rail and an end stop so the standards cannot just run off the end.

At the other end was a push-in black plastic cap, with a sprung-ball to lock it in place. It only provides a end stop in use, but it also pops off (with a noise my kids love) and inside is a ruler with all sorts of tables for macro reproduction ratios and a place you can store a standard pencil or a hex rod for the compendium.

With this kind of base rail you can only attach extensions to the black end - there is no threaded rod running through the rail as on a 12" extension.

Richard Wasserman
8-May-2012, 06:10
The Norma base rails (at least, some of them) did not have the two fixed black end caps found on later Sinar base rails.

One end was a fixed black knob which does not rotate. There was an Al cap which screwed over it when not in use, which provides an extra inch or so of rail and an end stop so the standards cannot just run off the end.

At the other end was a push-in black plastic cap, with a sprung-ball to lock it in place. It only provides a end stop in use, but it also pops off (with a noise my kids love) and inside is a ruler with all sorts of tables for macro reproduction ratios and a place you can store a standard pencil or a hex rod for the compendium.

With this kind of base rail you can only attach extensions to the black end - there is no threaded rod running through the rail as on a 12" extension.

This is the style I have, and I never noticed the pencil holder before—thanks Struan! I don't have a ruler or macro tables though, which makes me sad....

Normas are such wonderful cameras, and so well designed from a photographer's point of view; they are a joy to use.

jose angel
8-May-2012, 06:15
(Learning how to post an image in this forum... I`m not "new", but quite a newbie here... :)

73307

This are the things Struan is talking about.
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(BTW... Why my pic is not displayed full size???)

Richard Wasserman
8-May-2012, 06:34
(Learning how to post an image in this forum... I`m not "new", but quite a newbie here... :)

73307

This are the things Struan is talking about.


Thanks for the photo—I have never seen the ruler before.
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(BTW... Why my pic is not displayed full size???)

jose angel
8-May-2012, 06:50
You`re welcome...

73308
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(I see the system has now resized my pic... :/)

Let`s try again... hope it is readable now:

73310

The other side is simply an inch/cm ruler.

Jimi
8-May-2012, 10:50
I meant the front end plastic cap, and now that I tried to pull it off the rail, I found a ruler and a hex rod inside, as shown in the photos in the thread. How cool is that! :D If the hex rod is meant to be used for the compendium shade, then I am missing some parts between the rod and the shade.

Struan Gray
9-May-2012, 01:38
Jimi, the rod slots into the hole half way up the front standard on the right (as you look from the front). It's locked in place by a stainless steel piece and locking screw.

The 'proper' compendium is a spare bellows. There are clips which mount on the hex rod and hold one corner of the bellows. You can use two such clips and an appropriate length of hex rod to hold the bellows in place, or you can use an intermediate or spare standard to support the front of the bellows and just one clip at the back to support the rear end.

Note that it is not great using the later, plastic/resin clips from the F and P cameras. They are more secure, but they hold the bellows at a skewed angle - you can make it work, but it's a pain, especially with larger lenses. Newer hex rods work fine (as do the articulated rods) - the problem is that the groove on the standard is set at a different angle, so the hex rod is rotated compared to an F or P.

I found the proper compendium too much of a pain for field use. I ended up carrying too many bellows, and it was fiddley to set up and dismantle. Instead I mounted a 105 mm adapter ring for the Lee filter/compendium system on the Norma polariser holder. This lets me use the Lee self-supporting compendium and their 100 mm filters with a minimum of hassle.

Jimi
9-May-2012, 11:15
Struan,

really good info, thanks! :)

I have the bellows, the rod and what I think is the "holder" for the (glass) filters I have. Sadly the polariser is shot, it has delaminated. I also have an intermediate standard, but I guess I am going to use a something else for shading the (future) lens.