New Ebay policy of the week - partial refunds

[goamules]

I just can't believe how far Ebay will push sellers. I just got this Ebay happy-gram about their newest policy:

A provision has been added stipulating that in some cases we may refund part of the cost of an item to the buyer, and receive reimbursement from the seller, to cover differences between the item described and the item actually received, such as items received with small parts missing or minor repairs needed. Buyers may be asked to provide written proof from an authorized third party detailing the cost of such repairs. In these cases, we will not require the buyer to return the item to the seller.

Here we go, any buyer can now say they needed a shutter CLA, or glass polishing...WAIT, the CC Harrison I bought is missing the radial drive! or..... GEEZE, I can't keep taking these risks by selling on HOSED-BAY.

[AnselAdamsX]

This stinks. And Ive had better luck and lower fees here and on apug.

[jp]

They either expanded or elaborated on their mystery money-holding policy too.

The update to the Funds Availability program goes into effect 30 days after delivery of this notice to you:

To better protect our consumers, eBay has at times requested, and may continue to request, that PayPal hold seller funds based on certain factors, including but not limited to, selling history, seller performance, riskiness of listing category, or the filing of an eBay Buyer Protection case. Currently, access to funds from buyer payments may be delayed to promote successful fulfillment for sellers who are new to selling on eBay or have a below standard seller rating. This program may be expanded to include:

Sellers who sell an item in a high-risk category with no recent experience selling in that category; sell an item that has a sales price that is significantly higher than the average sales price of items previously sold by that seller; add a new PayPal account to their eBay account; were reinstated following an account restriction or suspension; or have recent account activity indicating risk, including but not limited to significant changes in listing activity or buyer dissatisfaction.

Transactions where the buyer indicates a problem, including but not limited to messages or activity indicating that the item hasn't been received or that the item isn't as described in the listing.

[DrTang]

Here we go, any buyer can now say they needed a shutter CLA.

well..if you described it as 'working perfectly and completely accurate' - then yes

[Moopheus]

well..if you described it as 'working perfectly and completely accurate' - then yes

Indeed, the seller of my Speed Graphic claimed that an actual service tech had checked the shutter and said it worked fine, which was quite clearly not the case when I got it. I'd rather deal with someone who says they don't know than outright lie about it. In that case, I decided to keep it and pay for the CLA because the rest of the kit was good. If there'd been a way to stick the seller for the cost, I would have done it.

[dh003i]

well..if you described it as 'working perfectly and completely accurate' - then yes

Right, this is really an issue of the description.

Buyers who were told X and received Y which is explicitly different from what was stated in X, have reason to object. That said, if a defect isn't stated, but the seller made no claim that there wasn't a defect, that is on the buyer.

The real issue is in implementation of the policy by eBay.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I'll be selling lots of things soon and I'll make it clear that the items are as-is with no refunds, full or partial. I'll take the lower selling price rather deal with the headaches. I won't accept PayPal either... Postal MO only... and I know that will affect selling price too. I don't care.

Can eBay take money from the seller of an "as-is" item?

[cdholden]

I won't accept PayPal either... Postal MO only... and I know that will affect selling price too. I don't care.

Can eBay take money from the seller of an "as-is" item?

I think the emperor deemed it necessary to provide an electronic payment option, otherwise your auction could be canceled. I could be wrong now, but I know it was true at one time.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I think the emperor deemed it necessary to provide an electronic payment option, otherwise your auction could be canceled. I could be wrong now, but I know it was true at one time.

I know that was true at one time but I thought they rescinded that demand. If it's still in place or is again in place then I'll never sell on eBay.

I'll happily take the losses of low sales prices to not deal with any crap from anyone. The buyer will get a good deal and I'll have peace of mind.

[SergeiR]

Right, this is really an issue of the description.

Buyers who were told X and received Y which is explicitly different from what was stated in X, have reason to object. That said, if a defect isn't stated, but the seller made no claim that there wasn't a defect, that is on the buyer.

The real issue is in implementation of the policy by eBay.

So basically if someone will be selling car, mentioned that it got dinges on hood, some scrapes on sides, and driveable, you will be absolutely fine receiving it and oh , not getting engine with it? I mean it is driveable without engine you can ride and steer... Just have to get someone to push it.

There is fine line between "not mentioned defect" and false description.

[dh003i]

I'll be selling lots of things soon and I'll make it clear that the items are as-is with no refunds, full or partial. I'll take the lower selling price rather deal with the headaches. I won't accept PayPal either... Postal MO only... and I know that will affect selling price too. I don't care.

Can eBay take money from the seller of an "as-is" item?

Not if the item arrived to the buyer as it was pictured and described. If the item was not as described, of course they can let the buyer send it back and return their money.

Regarding damage during shipping, if the buyer paid for shipping insurance and the item arrives damaged, that risk isn't borne by them: it is borne by you (if you packaged improperly or actually didn't insure the item) or the insurer.

[dh003i]

So basically if someone will be selling car, mentioned that it got dinges on hood, some scrapes on sides, and driveable, you will be absolutely fine receiving it and oh , not getting engine with it? I mean it is driveable without engine you can ride and steer... Just have to get someone to push it.

There is fine line between "not mentioned defect" and false description.

True. There are reasonable default expections when buying various items; I wasn't trying to say that this isn't the case. When buying lenses, the default expection is that they have all of the parts that their model comes with (e.g., front, rear, and internal elements, diaphragm if applicable, shutter if mentioned). If a lens was pictured and described so as to obsure the fact that it was missing one of those essential parts, the seller would be at fault and the buyer wouldn't bear that risk.

[Old-N-Feeble]

The problem is there's abuse from both buyers and seller... always someone out to get you. It's impossible to protect all parties involved. I'll take all the losses from selling "as-is" and not accepting electronic payment... if they'll let me. I don't have the time nor the energy anymore to deal with those stresses. Selling everything cheaply is worth it to me.

[cdholden]

Then take some photos and decide an asking price... you can post things here for sale, or on any number of applicable forums.

[CP Goerz]

''A provision has been added stipulating that in some cases WE may refund part of the cost of an item to the buyer'- 'We'-they know all there is to know about anything else sold on ebay.

'and receive reimbursement from the seller'-WHO ELSE? Its ALWAYS the seller!

'to cover differences between the item described and the item actually received'-Who is to say the item the buyer receives actually is the item? Since ebay won't look at images etc they'll just base their decision on something other than the facts...like how much the seller has purchased for example.

'Buyers may be asked to provide written proof from an authorized third party detailing the cost of such repairs'-so no repairs actually need be done, just a letter 'saying' what needs to be done....and even then the word 'MAY' kicks in.


'authorized third party detailing the cost of such repairs'-An estimate? So get the buddy down at the store to rack up an invoice 25 cents shy of the grand total and submit that to get a free item courtesy of Ebay...NICE!


'In these cases, we will not require the buyer to return the item to the seller.' Of course not, they'd be a fool not to take advantage of this situation.

[SamReeves]

Buy on eBay and sell here. That seems to be the way to go.

[jnantz]

i think the 1 in 10 rule applies here, like everywhere ...
1 in 10 buyers don't know what they want, and can be a PITA during and after the auction ...
and 1 in 10 sellers deserve to send buyers refunds since they are trying to pull a fast one.

this isn't to say that there aren't people who sell here and on apug and anywhere else
who are trying to pull a fast one, don't send the goods, sell broken things
or things not as described &c ... the only differences are there isn't a commission,
and or a feeback system to warn buyers and sellers of "problems" ...

[Tracy Storer]

I am SO READY to be done selling on Ebay. They CLEARLY only care about buyer money, and sellers be f*cked.

[Marc B.]

I, for one, think this action on *Bay's part, is a little overdue.
Too many sellers list their equipment under the, 'USED' category, when in fact,
they should be using the, 'FOR PARTS-NOT WORKING' category.


From Merriam Webster:


Definition of IMPERFECTION


: the quality or state of being imperfect; also, see : fault, blemish

From *Bay's "Description Category Menu" - USED:


Used:
An item that has been previously used. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear,
but is fully operational and functions as intended.
This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used.
See the seller's listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

Re-Emphasize:


...but is fully operational and functions as intended.

No matter additional narrative on the sellers part, if the seller has chosen the 'USED'
category, then...by default, the item being sold had better work as intended, or the seller may
have to pay for any repairs necessary, for said item, 'to operate/function as intended.'

Marc

[Corran]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The only two times I've been screwed over on ebay was as a BUYER. I've bought and sold hundreds of items on eBay with virtually no problems. I think everyone complains about eBay too much.

[atlcruiser]

FWIIW:

I am now an e bay power seller......whoo fucking hooooooo!

My return policy is very simple. If you do not like the item for ANY reason contact me within 7 days. Ship it back to me and once I receive it in the same condition as when it left I refund your money + shipping both ways. In many items sold I have had to refund this maybe 3times.

[Steven Tribe]

Whilst I buy mostly vintage items, I sell mostly newer items typically Hasselblad equipment - in the very good/excellent range. Everything is "buyer returns if he/she is unhappy with the item".

The new policy, as far as I can see, creates the problem that a buyer can insist on a CLA costed by the seller even in cases where the lens (as an example) works pefectly.

I have very recently sold (within the last 2 weeks) some Hasselblad equipment to a "new to me" buyer. He received it at 16.00 (courier registration) and he was in contact a few hours later with the "not as expected" note. During the 2 hours he had dismantled the lens and done a CLA - his own admission. By doing this, he had effectively removed the "return if not satisfied" option and expected me to cover his own CLA "costs".

This is the first time I have been involved with someone who is so obviously a "buy up and squeeze a little more money out of the seller and sell at a slight profit type". Later checks on the person (not possible in the ebay system private feedback option) on the net, confirms this deduction.

I can understand his wish to do a CLA. I would do the same if I had the necessary tools, experience and time. I rarely see items that are described or documented as having a recent CLA. Because of the policy change, I will have to include in the listing - "no documentation of recent CLA" but is in excellent condition and works perfectly - to insure myself against repeat performances!

[Old-N-Feeble]

I've seen the "buy and cheat by lying/squeezing" type many times. I've also seen the "sell and cheat by lying/misrepresentation" type many times. Neither are fun to be on the receiving end of getting cheated. Just like any other place to buy/sell... abuse comes from both sides. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat. Too bad the USA doesn't still hang thieves... I'll bet the number of incidences would decrease dramatically.

I know I'm just repeating myself but I'm going to sell as-is with zero refunds and I'll accept the severe losses. I just hope eBay will honor this. If I'm willing to take big losses and the buyer is willing to take that risk to save money... probably even flip the item(s) for profit... then eBay should leave those auctions alone. I don't have the time nor the patience to deal with horse thieves and biased judges. Where's my damned rope?!

[CP Goerz]

Hey Old+Feeble-


'I'm going to sell as-is with zero refunds and I'll accept the severe losses. I just hope eBay will honor this.' They won't. No matter how draconian you put the conditions and no matter how well you describe the item the buyer can ALWAYS say that the item wasn't as described. In that case you are on the hook and WILL have to give a refund.

'Too bad the USA doesn't still hang thieves... I'll bet the number of incidences would decrease dramatically.'-In that case you may as well start with the Ebay management ;-)



I used to sell at a lower price for years due to the as-is clause but when it came down to it Ebay will back the buyer in 99% of the cases. Now I offer a return and have to deal with about the same percentage of sorrowful bidders as before. As a few folks have mentioned the bad buyers/sellers cause such a disproportionate amount of bad feeling that its difficult to judge objectively.



Steven-

Another Hassy horror story....a friend sold an Xpan lens on ebay and the buyer took it apart and then claimed thats how he received it. He was given a 100% refund and my friend had to pay a few $$$ to get the lens put back together again. I wonder if it was the same person you dealt with...except the time with my friends lens they were still learning their 'craft'.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Well then... maybe I'll just sell here and on APUG. My reputation on these forums is far more important to me than on eBay. The only real issue is how long it might take to sell things especially since bumping more than once per week or even two weeks is frowned upon by many. I'll just under-price my stuff, I guess... same as I would have on eBay anyway.

[BrianShaw]

Although in the minority, you can experience those same bad buyer-seller behavoirs her + an APUG, as I did once. Bad buyers + sellers are bad buyers + sellers wherever they practice those behaviors.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Brian... I have no doubt about that but I'm not forced to accept paypal or other form of electronic payment on the forums. I won't support paypal or any other companies based on credit card services. Frankly, after looking again at ebay, I don't want to deal with them either. I recently bought a couple of small items off ebay because I couldn't find them anywhere else... and the sellers accepted postal money orders. I guess, for me, ebay will just be a rarely used resource to buy only... never sell.

[BrianShaw]

Dishonest people will be dishonest no matter the payment method.

[BrianShaw]

... So says Ben Franklin.

[photobymike]

I'll be selling lots of things soon and I'll make it clear that the items are as-is with no refunds, full or partial. I'll take the lower selling price rather deal with the headaches. I won't accept PayPal either... Postal MO only... and I know that will affect selling price too. I don't care.

Can eBay take money from the seller of an "as-is" item?

It is my understanding that "as is" will not be allowed ... minium of 14 day return window with 30 and 60 as an option.... i dont think they will allow money orders either.... Well its time to make some money actually taking pictures i guess

[photobymike]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The only two times I've been screwed over on ebay was as a BUYER. I've bought and sold hundreds of items on eBay with virtually no problems. I think everyone complains about eBay too much.

I have had my clock cleaned or bank account by ebay/paypal .. in the past just considered it the cost of doing business... not anymore... i am quitting selling large cost items... now i will sell for cheap ... if a person has a complaint, i just refund full amount with shipping and let them keep the item. Just a way to empty out my garage ... "my trash is an-others treasure"

For years now i have made money selling used photo stuff. I used to be a good professional photographer... just got lazy and started to make money on stuff instead of my services. Its just time to turn that around.....

[photobymike]

Hey "Old Feeble" Have you ever seen a "fake" money order... i have ... my bank had never seen one either... took two weeks for me to find out...Yepper Money Orders can bounce.. but by that time the item was shipped....We also have another problem developing check this out http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/may/06/3/mail-carriers-fear-thieves-ar-400342/ Have you ever had a package just stolen off your doorstep?

[Old-N-Feeble]

photobymike... No, I've never seen a fake postal MO. BTW, I cash postal MO's at my PO just prior to shipment. If it's fake they won't cash it and I won't ship so I'll only be out some time. There's a PO just a couple of blocks away from my work location so I can take care of shipping during lunch. All this stated... I don't have the patience to deal with eBay... I think that company just might kill me and I'm not ready to kick the bucket just yet.

So I guess I'll sell just an item or two at a time on the forums. Once folks know that I'm not a scamming liar I ought to do alright. I'll sell cheaply enough that I won't have to wait a month to sell nor will I endlessly bump my threads while lowering the prices by a measly 2 or 3 percent trying to squeeze every single penny out of whatever. I just want this stuff out of my way and some cash to get some things done around here. Hopefully, I'll get it right and make everyone happy.

[photobymike]

Anybody from south Texas has to be trust worthy ... i would buy from you.... yea i use the USPS only!! for money orders....Actually my sales are way down in the past months... people do not have the money anymore to buy camera stuff... in the past 3 months the only significant sales has been to other dealers hoping to buy cheap in plans for the recovery of the economy

[Leigh]

I won a very large number of auctions on evilpay, before it went belly-up.

I stopped using it when they insisted on paypill, and will never use the bay again. Never.

So if anybody wants to sell anything to me (I'm always buying stuff), they can do it here or APUG.

End of story.

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

hey, photobymike... Likewise with S. Florida integrity. :) I bet if my prices are low enough and my descriptions honest I can sell a ton of stuff, albeit at substantial loss. ;)

[Old-N-Feeble]

I hear you, Leigh. Ebay was always bad but PayPal was okay until eBay bought them.

Keep your eyes open in the next few weeks/months. I'll be selling things just 2-3 at a time. I'll probably list different things on APUG because I'm aware that many members are on both sites and this increases my offerings. My moniker is the same on both sites.

I had decided not to sell on the forums but eBay policies changed my mind.

BTW, IMHO, eBay has made some definite IMPROVEMENTS since I dealt with them a decade ago. If you have a problem you can actually talk to or email with a real person who seems to give a damn. THAT is a real improvement for sure. So maybe there's hope?

[photobymike]

Hey OLD n FEEBLE ..let me know when you list.... i am looking for a field 4x5 camera and lens for group portraits ..probably a graflex .... and any Pentax 67 stuff.....

[Old-N-Feeble]

photbymike... Will do. If you'll PM with some specifics I'll try to find what you need. But I'm going to post it for sale in open forum for all to see for complete transparency on my part. I'll let you have first dibs at below market value. Fair enough?

Who needs eBay anyway? If one thing isn't bad something else is. They fix one thing and immediately mess up another.

[uphereinmytree]

I've been selling a few things this year on evilbay and have seen many requests for a partial refund. I always insist that the buyer just send the item back and I'll refund the money. By the way, even if you say no returns, as is, evilbay will hold your money and usually side with the buyer. There is NO seller protection on evilbay and anything can be returned to a seller. Most buyers who want a partial refund end up keeping the item end of story when I request the item back.

[Old-N-Feeble]

upthereinmytree... I've used that tactic before... no partial refunds but allow the buyer to return the item for a full refund. It stopped some of the scammers because they'd only be wasting their time. However, apparently eBay's latest crap won't allow that.

[goamules]

Maybe we should start an "Ebay's Stupid Policy of the Week against Sellers" thread? The linked pictures in my auction item suddenly disappeared, showing broken links. Rather than try to figure out what Ebay is doing, I just decided to upload them to Ebay's normal picture viewer (and pay for each additional picture, it looks like they've gone back to making sellers pay to show their wares, after a few years of allowing pictures for free). It's not really related, but this standard popup displays as you are editing your auction:

"A listing may not include statements that discourage bidding activity.

For example, you cannot say things like:

"Find out more about our selling practices policy"

“Don’t bid if you do not agree with my terms”

This kind of information is unprofessional and may discourage good buying activity on your item....[Ebay policy popup]"

I've seen this popup before, it's a standard warning. But come on! So among the thousand cuts Ebay gives, we cannot try to filter bad buyers, or force them to abide by your terms??!! What purpose is putting the terms then (I'm sure they'd prefer sellers not have any)? And they dare say asking people to abide by your terms is unprofessional?! You wonder why Ebay doesn't ever stop Seller's Keyword Spamming and other tactics to give high sales? Because they don't care about all that, they want anything that gives them their high fees. And they force you to give them your bank account so if any buyer makes any unreasonable complaint, they pay them out of your money. But you won't ever see their fees get reduced, reversed, returned. Bunch of scammers, I can't even think of any analogy of another monopolistic, heavy-handed company from the past.
Rant over.

[Mark Sawyer]

Bunch of scammers, I can't even think of any analogy of another monopolistic, heavy-handed company from the past.

Any time you have a monopoly, you have problems. It's like back when there was one phone company, AT&T, and no competition allowed. Their motto was "We're the phone company. We care. We have to." Lily Tomlin had a long-running joke as a telephone operator, "We're the phone company. We don't care. We don't have to." It was one of those jokes that rang all too true.

Ebay's in that situation today. They don't care. They don't have to.

[jumanji]

Oops! eBay has already increased the maximum Final value fee for auction style from $100 to $250 !!!
It's definitely tooooo high!
Not to mention their stupid 21 days period before funds availability!
But do we have another choice?!

[eddie]

Oops! eBay has already increased the maximum Final value fee for auction style from $100 to $250 !!!
It's definitely tooooo high!
Not to mention their stupid 21 days period before funds availability!
But do we have another choice?!U

Wow! And i was almost used to the increase from 50 to 100. Damn.

[rdenney]

eBay was built on the notion that it had no part of the transaction other than to put buyers and sellers together. But as they've tried to establish real retail operations and offer competition to Amazon, they've had to extend their business model to include processing the transaction. But they've tried to do that without assuming any risk, as if they were still just in the market-making role. I suspect it will shake out in the end, but during this early period in online markets there will be inequities that wander to and fro until it matures.

The problem, of course, is that eBay does not inspect the goods being sold, as any normal auction house would. So, buyers will always accuse sellers of misrepresentation, and sellers will always accuse buyers of breaking somethign after it was received. eBay's latest strategy tries to put this inspection job in the hands of independent third parties, but they do not define what constitutes independence nor do they define what it takes to be authoritative. This will get tested, and pretty soon, I suspect. And then the pendulum will swing again, or eBay will acquire some other service to fill the void, as they did with Paypal.

And as their role increases from mere market-maker to transaction processor to goods evaluator, they will want a higher price.

Anybody who has done actual business could have predicted all of this. I remember in the early days of eBay when people complained that eBay didn't provide a transaction service (which led to Paypal). And in those days the accusations of buyers against sellers and vice versa were probably quite a bit higher as a percentage of transactions as they are now.

Some people have made a sideline of selling on eBay. eBay made such sidelines possible. But then those people complain that eBay, who provides the store and who, at the request of both sellers and buyers, is now providing some of the protections that go along with a store, wants a higher price to do it.

I sold a few things on eBay in the early days, but frankly found it to be too much trouble for what I made from the sales. That train has left the station. If I had stuff to sell now, I'd go ahead and pay for the advertising and sell it direct, or target it to a select audience on forums like this one. I just find it almost amusing that the service people complained about bitterly ten years ago is now remembered fondly as part of the "good old days".

Rick "who would be happy if eBay would take down the 'Buyer's Guide' article that plagiarizes my copyrighted web page, including a photograph of me made by my wife" Denney

[chopsteeks]

Yes...

Paypal fees, hold on funds policy, Ebay fees ....selling there is expensive...




Buy on eBay and sell here. That seems to be the way to go.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I'd rather try to sell here and APUG first and pass on the savings to the buyer. Better they have it than ePay and PayPay.

[RichardSperry]

Yes...

Paypal fees, hold on funds policy, Ebay fees ....selling there is expensive...

Compared to camera store consignment, it's still a bargain. 12%(the 9 plus 3) commission on sales is not that outrageous, in any type of selling situation. Consignment was/is typically 50%, with a lower gross resale. And your item is being viewed world wide, not just the people driving distance to your (previous) camera store, your prospective buyer pool is exponentially larger than any other type of local sales.

If you took Visa/MC yourself, you lose 2.5-3% on the sale. Roughly equivalent to PP's cut. And you still risk charge backs when you take credit cards.

My funds are released 3 days after delivery anyway. So that's not prohibitive, that's equal to a bank clearing a check for funds availability.

FVF on shipping is a crock. And so is this partial refund without recourse thing; But I will see how that plays out before I form a reactionary opinion.

[chopsteeks]

If you look at it that way, good for you.

But there are other choices to sell. I opt to use other choices.


Compared to camera store consignment, it's still a bargain. 12%(the 9 plus 3) commission on sales is not that outrageous, in any type of selling situation. Consignment was/is typically 50%, with a lower gross resale. And your item is being viewed world wide, not just the people driving distance to your (previous) camera store, your prospective buyer pool is exponentially larger than any other type of local sales.

If you took Visa/MC yourself, you lose 2.5-3% on the sale. Roughly equivalent to PP's cut. And you still risk charge backs when you take credit cards.

My funds are released 3 days after delivery anyway. So that's not prohibitive, that's equal to a bank clearing a check for funds availability.

FVF on shipping is a crock. And so is this partial refund without recourse thing; But I will see how that plays out before I form a reactionary opinion.