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View Full Version : Which camera to buy very new to Large format



Dwarak Calayampundi
15-Apr-2012, 22:27
Hello All,

I am avery fresh to large format photography, I have used digital cameras and currently use a film camera with my canon lens. I would like to know which camera I can get with all the movements and I am on a budget and I also want a light enough camera to hike. I would like to do landscapes with this camera and maybe some studio work for portraitures in the future. Your help and advice is approciated...

Steve Barber
15-Apr-2012, 22:59
Hello All,

I am avery fresh to large format photography, I have used digital cameras and currently use a film camera with my canon lens. I would like to know which camera I can get with all the movements and I am on a budget and I also want a light enough camera to hike. I would like to do landscapes with this camera and maybe some studio work for portraitures in the future. Your help and advice is approciated...

Most questions you have can be researched on the Large Format Information site and Steve Simmon's book, "Using the View Camera":

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

http://www.amazon.com/Using-View-Camera-creative-photography/dp/0817463534/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334555643&sr=8-1

I would suggest that you use these to get an idea of what you might be getting into. There are other books you can search for and searching this forum will, also, be helpful. Searching Amazon, for example, with the query, "large format photography", will bring up a number of books you might be interested in. There really is no shortcut to this process. Asking general questions just gets answers you can't put in context and you end up with what someone else wanted, not what you want or need.

Dwarak Calayampundi
15-Apr-2012, 23:11
Steve thanks for the information most appriciated I have started to read the links mate....

Steve Barber
16-Apr-2012, 00:13
Steve thanks for the information most appriciated I have started to read the links mate....

You are welcome, good luck with your quest.

Carterofmars
17-Apr-2012, 03:27
In my opinion, I think for someone just trying this format out for the first time, it's probably a good idea to get your hands on an old Super Speed Graphic or any Graflex (http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/graphic-models.html) camera for that matter. They can be had for a few hundred dollars on the fleabay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Graphic&_sacat=625&_odkw=Century+Graphic&_osacat=625&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313).

IanG
17-Apr-2012, 03:58
Dwarak asked about a camera with all the movements which rules out Speed & Crown Graphics. While the Super Graphic has no rear movements it does have a revolving back and also plenty of front movements to compensate but theyb tend to be expensive or need restoration and parts can be hard to find.

I do use a Super Graphic and find the movements give me everything I require and it's as capable as my Wista 45DX. I aslo use both Speed & Crown Graphics and frequently find I get frustrated by their poor movements particularly in portrait mode.

There's plenty of good basic cameras with enough movements, Wista, Shen Hao, Toyo 45A and if you're lucky a Graflex/Toyo Super Graphic. There's also MPP Micro Technicals Mk VI, VII and VII are the best and just ocassionally there's bargain Linhofs.

Ian

pdmoylan
17-Apr-2012, 20:55
Omega/Toyo 45d. In good condition with no bellows issues expect to pay upwards of $350. Has all movements. Some plastic parts which need TLC, but with care will perform well.

unixrevolution
17-Apr-2012, 21:02
+1 on the Super Graphic, I love mine...as capable a field camera as I could hope for, and a fun rangefinder too!

I would also reccomend that if you're just trying out LF, get a rail like a Toyo 45D or my 45F. Great starter camera that gives you a great sampling of movements for very little money.

Steve Barber
17-Apr-2012, 21:47
If you google the OP's name, you will find a number of links to his work. I think he needs a view camera, not a press camera and the terrain, while fascinating, is such that he would find a field camera more useful than a monorail.

If a member that is familiar with his location could recommend a good LF dealer to him, I think he would find that information more useful than suggestions regarding specific camera types or models.

Dwarak Calayampundi
17-Apr-2012, 22:12
Steve you are right what I really need is a view camera. The main thing for me is depth of field I am not happy with what I can achieve with a 5d mark2 and 16-35 l series lens. I read a lot of reviews about large format film and large format cameras. I have some experience with film (35mm) and good grasp of how to use light meters for landscape photography. I have been looking at chamonix 4x5 seems like a light camera has anyone used this before. It offers most of the movements esp for depth of field control. I am not that worried about perspective as that is more subjective for landscape I guess. Thanks for all the replies so far

Steve Barber
17-Apr-2012, 22:42
Yes, I thought the same when I looked at your Currumbin Rock series. I think you have a good grasp of what it is you want to do. The problem, I think, is for you to have the opportunity to try some equipment and see if it does what you want without getting in your way to do it. I am not familiar with the Chamonix, but the pictures and specs for it seem to make it a camera that would be worth considering. Two questions I would have would be its usability with the larger wide angle lenses and how long a lens it could focus at infinity using its optional extension.

Lachlan 717
17-Apr-2012, 23:03
Dwarak,

There are some LF shooters in Brisvegas who might be able to give you a basic rundown on these types of cameras. I think that it's useful to feel one before you decide on what to get.

Have you had a look at the Australian section on APUG? I think that the Brisbane shooters have a listing there.

If you're in Melbourne, let me know; I can show you some cameras.

cosmicexplosion
18-Apr-2012, 04:51
g'day mate, you anozzie areya?

cant work out how Locky knows, but i have long thought he crosses over...

best thing you can do is be a bit more specific , not just say on a budget, i mean australia is on a whatever billion budget, so what is your budget range? etc just add some detail, so we can help.

below are a few good cheap ones from ebay now, any ofem are good. metal is heavy but strong, and rigid, wood is light and not quiet as strong or rigid, but seems to work regardless. so dont worry to much, most will be able to be re-sold later, and any loss can be seen as cheap rental.

its a confusin t'ing choosing a camera. all cameras have qwerks and every camera has tricks or design/ style/ looks thats different( a bit), but any of those cameras will work well. if you want to be a bit rough get the toyo metal 4x5, or want to go bush and not worry to much, as it is protected in its own shell. i only use a 4x5 monorail, by sinar, but i would prob get a metal clamm type like the toyo which i believe to be a copy of the linhof technical camera, which will cost you alot more. like 4500 new body only. ( also the wista is also pretty much the same sort of camera as toyo and linhof)
so depending on when you want tit, ie are you prepared to wait and search? if so keep a tab on toyo 4x5 field and find there average and try and snap a good one. get one lens to start and then buy sheet film and developer etc.

and remember, unlike digi, once you buy a camera its a hungry beast that needs feeding, like a rotweeler, lots of meat every week, and it adds up so get your one camera one lens, and start shooting, if you buy to many lenses etc you will not have money for film etc. and you burn a lot learning, once you learn then worry about getting other gear. it will always be there.

welcome to the madhouse.


http://http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wista-N-4x5-Large-Format-Field-Camera-w-Tachihara-Back-Rare-/190643807701?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item2c6341a5d5

http://http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Toyo-Field-4X5-Field-Camera-new-bellows-lens-board-Copal-1-opening-/200746903937?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item2ebd72a981

http://http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Shen-Hao-4X5-HZX45-IIA-Wood-Folding-Field-Camera-/140740057504?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item20c4c2d9a0

http://http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Horseman-45HD-4x5-Metal-Field-Camera-/170821630661?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item27c5c33ac5

Dwarak Calayampundi
18-Apr-2012, 16:48
Thanks for the info mate nice to see so many helpful people. My budget is a bit small as I have already spent a lot on digital cameras and lens. This will just be something for myself not going to be commercial. I intend to spend upto 1000 dollars on a body and 500 on lens with the shutter. I really like the look and the compactness of chamonix.

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/45.html

From the demo video I can see that there is the basic movements. The main things I am after is perspective and depth of field control. Which I think this camera will offer. There is the ability to focus at infinity and has scales to achieve that. The focussing nobs are at the rear which is good.

Has anyone used this camera?

Old-N-Feeble
18-Apr-2012, 17:04
Anyone used the Chamonix 4x5? You're joking right?? :D

chuck94022
18-Apr-2012, 18:32
For depth of field control you basically need tilt and swing, and for perspective control you will want some rise and fall. You'll appreciate a camera with both front and back tilt and swing to give you some options.

I currently use a Wista 45DX (the one with back shift) and love it (though I never use back shift). It's only problem is a short bellows (limiting you to less than 300mm lens) and the inability to change bellows.

I am buying a Chamonix because of those limitations on the Wista, plus I think the Chamonix is a great camera (I was able to get hands on with one here in Beijing recently.)


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=39.991436,116.476758

Dwarak Calayampundi
18-Apr-2012, 18:57
Thanks for the reply Chuck I think I will go for the chamonix 4x5. But first get a 90mm schnider lens. I have used many schnider products for digital slr think 90mm would roughly be 30mm 35mm equivalent. I saw a few with a shutter on eBay I might get it cheap.

chuck94022
19-Apr-2012, 00:08
I use a Schneider 90mm on my Wista, it is a good wide lens. A dealer recently stated to me that Rodenstock lenses were sharper, and thus would be better for me for my landscapes. He said my Schneiders were better as portrait lenses since they are softer than Rodenstock.

Since I have no Rodenstock lenses, I can't confirm that for myself, but would be happy to entertain opinions from others on this point.

chuck94022
19-Apr-2012, 00:11
Oh one more thing Dwarak, the Chamonix is not in constant production. You put yourself on a list for whenever they do their next factory run. You might wait as long as 6 months. You should contact Hugo (his info is on their website) for information on availability. They are doing a factory run right now, so if you are lucky you might get on this run's list, but I don't know.

Lachlan 717
19-Apr-2012, 00:26
IMO this is absolute rubbish.

How can you generalise over two whole ranges of lenses?

If a dealer told me that, I would never, ever go back as they are full of the smelly brown stuff.

Any of the modern LF lens makers' lenses will be so close in performance that it is very hard to distinguish between them.

cosmicexplosion
19-Apr-2012, 02:15
If that's the case. I would say you won't go wrong with the chamionix
So go for it.
Get cracken.
Shoot to kill.

Scott Davis
19-Apr-2012, 11:41
I'd suggest taking a good look at the Shen Hao also. They're just as capable, and the older HZX AT-II models were made of teak - heavy, but given you are doing a lot of work seaside, that would be a good option as teak is naturally water resistant. I don't know what they are using for current HZX models - it might be walnut, which is also very stable, and lighter than teak.

chuck94022
20-Apr-2012, 00:24
Chamonix is currently being offered in Teak and Maple, but the wood choices vary over their production runs, so you have to ask about availability when you get on the list to buy.

Two23
20-Apr-2012, 08:00
Thanks for the info mate nice to see so many helpful people. My budget is a bit small as I have already spent a lot on digital cameras and lens. This will just be something for myself not going to be commercial. I intend to spend upto 1000 dollars on a body and 500 on lens with the shutter. I really like the look and the compactness of chamonix.



From the demo video I can see that there is the basic movements. The main things I am after is perspective and depth of field control. Which I think this camera will offer. There is the ability to focus at infinity and has scales to achieve that. The focussing nobs are at the rear which is good.

Has anyone used this camera?



I've been using one and truly love it. It's very well made and finished. Before that, I was using a Shen Hao which is also a good camera. I am strictly an outdoor photographer.


Kent in SD

Dwarak Calayampundi
21-Apr-2012, 00:21
Thanks for the information Kent. I am an outdoor shooter as well i mostly do landscapes and use wide angle lens.

Old-N-Feeble
21-Apr-2012, 06:47
** Do you ever expect to shoot roll film (5.6 x 8.4cm or 5.6 x 11.2cm)?

** Do you ever expect to crop 4x5 (9.5 x 12cm) to a narrower format (6 x 120cm or 8 x 12cm)?

** Do you like ultra-wide lenses?

I'll probably never use the full frame of a 4x5 sheet because I prefer 2:3 or 1:2 ratios to 4:5 other than for non-environmental (studio) portraits and I'll not be doing those. I've decided to dedicate my 45N-1 strictly to 5.6 x 11.2cm roll film because, the way I'll be shooting, there's not much different in image size between 120 roll film and 4x5 sheet film so the convenience/weight/bulk of roll film is alluring. If I want a 2:3 ratio then I'll shoot two images and stitch them in Photoshop for 7.5 x 11.2cm images. So, the largest image circle I'll need to fill is 135mm (if no movements are needed). This allows use of a 38mm SA XL straight on and with a little wiggle room on 5.6 x 11.2cm. There are times when I need my ultra-wide fix!! ;)

If you shoot like me then a 38mm SA XL might be a good base line to start your lens selection. If you expect to shoot 4x5 full frame then you'll need to jump up to a 47mm SA XL. Of course... you'd better REALLY LOVE ultra-angle lenses.

I doubt the 38mm SA XL will cover 8 x 12cm... maybe 6 x 12cm.

Dwarak Calayampundi
22-Apr-2012, 02:34
** Do you ever expect to shoot roll film (5.6 x 8.4cm or 5.6 x 11.2cm)?

** Do you ever expect to crop 4x5 (9.5 x 12cm) to a narrower format (6 x 120cm or 8 x 12cm)?

** Do you like ultra-wide lenses?

I'll probably never use the full frame of a 4x5 sheet because I prefer 2:3 or 1:2 ratios to 4:5 other than for non-environmental (studio) portraits and I'll not be doing those. I've decided to dedicate my 45N-1 strictly to 5.6 x 11.2cm roll film because, the way I'll be shooting, there's not much different in image size between 120 roll film and 4x5 sheet film so the convenience/weight/bulk of roll film is alluring. If I want a 2:3 ratio then I'll shoot two images and stitch them in Photoshop for 7.5 x 11.2cm images. So, the largest image circle I'll need to fill is 135mm (if no movements are needed). This allows use of a 38mm SA XL straight on and with a little wiggle room on 5.6 x 11.2cm. There are times when I need my ultra-wide fix!! ;)

If you shoot like me then a 38mm SA XL might be a good base line to start your lens selection. If you expect to shoot 4x5 full frame then you'll need to jump up to a 47mm SA XL. Of course... you'd better REALLY LOVE ultra-angle lenses.

I doubt the 38mm SA XL will cover 8 x 12cm... maybe 6 x 12cm.

I love ultra wide angles again it depends on the composition and how close you want to get to the main subject. I would like the flexibility to shoot different formats like panoramic I was hoping that the chamonix would take a 120mm film back with a pano crop adapter. I am planning to get a 90mm and 135mm to start with. Thanks for posting.

Old-N-Feeble
22-Apr-2012, 03:51
How wide panoramic...5.6 x 11.2cm... 5.6 x 16.8cm? Do you also plan on shooting full frame 4x5 (95 x 120cm). These decision make a difference in lens selection.

rdenney
22-Apr-2012, 16:11
You don't need an adapter for panoramic views. If you want to use 6x12 (I use the nominal format size--all the roll holders are a bit different), then you need a camera with a Graflok/International back. Most current cameras have that, including the Chamonix. An inexpensive roll-film holder that does 6x12 is made by Shen-Hao. Otherwise, just crop off what you don't need of 4x5 film.

There are those who use split-dark-slides with sheet film holders to get 4x10 from an 8x10 holder, but the much higher price of film and the much greater ground glass area makes that reasonable. It's not worth the trouble, in my view, for 2x5.

An advantage to 6x12 if you use roll film is that decent scanners are more available for roll film than for sheet film. The scanners for sheet film really benefit from using all the sheet.

A 90mm lens is usually about as wide as most people go. If you rarely need wider than 24mm on a full-frame DSLR, then 90 on 4x5 will be wide enough. 6x12 defies comparison because of the shape, however. The Schneider XL lenses cover 4x5 down to 47mm, but those are well beyond your price range. An older 65mm/5.6 Super Angulon might fit the budget better and give you a bit more field of view for smaller formats, if you go that way. My advice is to save 6x12 for later, if you really do want to shoot 4x5 film at all.

For lens quality, at 90mm, any of the Schneider Super Angulon, Rodenstock Grandagon, Fuji SWD, and Nikon SW choices are excellent. Don't, however, choose an Angulon (without the "Super") or something like a Graflex Wide-Field Optar--those lenses are much older designs and cover 4x5 using a combination of a tiny aperture and wishful thinking.

For 135mm, the plasmat designs (e.g. Symmar, Sironar, etc.) from any of the four manufacturers will be a good choice.

Multicoating is nice but not necessary for first-rate work. A great starting point might be an old Schneider 90mm f/8 Super Angulon and a Schneider 135mm f/5.6 Symmar or Symmar-S. You might find these for several hundred each in reasonable condition, and stay in budget. Schneider is not necessarily better than other brands, but they made more lenses that are now of an age to combine very close to the most modern design with a high supply and low price. Remember that for a 16x20 print, a 4x5 film only needs a 4x enlargement, while a 24x36 frame needs 17x enlargement. Large format is much less demanding of lenses unless you make very, very large prints. On reason to use large format is that amazing detail is possible without spending thousands on each lens.

If you are going to buy new, the Chamonix is as good a place to start as any, and a lot cheaper than most. It's still quite a bit more expensive than a used monorail, though. Those are usually pretty thick on the ground and very cheap these days, but that may be less the case in 'Stralia.

Don't forget to budget for all additional things you'll need, including film holders, a stout tripod with a stout head, a dark cloth (though you can make your own), a loupe, a cable release, the appropriate lens boards, a changing tent if you will need to load film holders in the field, and a stock of film.

By the way: Large format has less depth of field than smaller formats. You'll need much smaller apertures to get similar depth of field, with the associated longer shutter speeds. But what large-format offers that is a very expensive compromise option with smaller format is the ability to tilt the focus plane by tilting the front and back of the camera with respect to each other. You may have less depth of field, but being able to put the focus plane where you want it is often more useful in any case. That's the point of having movements, of course.

Good luck and don't forget that we do this for fun.

Rick "who looked at a Canham last week (something like what the Chamonix copies), and thought it really nice but still a monorail junkie" Denney

hmf
22-Apr-2012, 17:13
I'd have a look at the Canham DLC. It is well made, has plenty of movements for a field camera, and will handle at least from 65mm to 450mm (at infinity) with the standard bellows. I believe there's a used one on the auction site right now (I have no stake in that). Good luck in your quest.

Trius
22-Apr-2012, 19:28
The current production run of Chamonix 45N-2 is now, but I don't know if the list is full. I'm on it and am waiting for Hugo's "it's shipped" email. :D

edit: Previous to the Chamonix I had a Toyo 45A, which is more limited in movements. For landscapes I never felt the need for more movements.

My wide is the Fuji 90, which is quite good and is relatively inexpensive according to current eBay prices.

Dwarak Calayampundi
23-Apr-2012, 01:36
The current production run of Chamonix 45N-2 is now, but I don't know if the list is full. I'm on it and am waiting for Hugo's "it's shipped" email. :D

edit: Previous to the Chamonix I had a Toyo 45A, which is more limited in movements. For landscapes I never felt the need for more movements.

My wide is the Fuji 90, which is quite good and is relatively inexpensive according to current eBay prices.

Thanks for the reply I usually shoot at 16mm with my DSLR again depending on composition 16-20 but Something tells me that I will not need wider than 90mm so there is less corrections I need to make and I plan to take pictures focussing at infinity and try and get consistent results then I will try different compositions with foreground subjects.

chuck94022
23-Apr-2012, 07:06
Dwarak, if you are interested in getting a Chamonix in this production run (versus waiting perhaps another 6 months) suggest you email Hugo Zhang at hugoz_2000@yahoo.com immediately. They are doing the run right now. I would email him on your behalf, but I can't tell from your comments whether you are ready to pull the trigger or not. Anyway, the Chamonix folks run a part time operation, and the window may be open for you right now. But check with Hugo, he'll know.

Dwarak Calayampundi
24-Apr-2012, 04:15
Thanks for the heads up I would like to wait for some time I am not yet ready for it in maybe 6 months I will be ready. Basically I am waiting for some funds.

Dwarak Calayampundi
23-May-2013, 22:24
Hi I purchased a chamonix 045 F1 camera

Ian Gordon Bilson
24-May-2013, 02:54
If "Brevity be the soul of wit" ,post 29 fills the bill. Well said,Mr Denny.

cosmicexplosion
8-Jun-2013, 03:33
If "Brevity be the soul of wit" ,post 29 fills the bill. Well said,Mr Denny.

:)