PDA

View Full Version : Filters for Black White



bob carnie
31-Mar-2012, 05:45
I am in the middle of a project where I am photographing objects then solarizing the film.

I want to get meat * red* to pop, I am using FP4 rated normal and using a soft solaral type of dev.

What filter would you use to get the most detail , or tonality out of red meat or red objects for that matter?
I am using an old Century Camera with no shutter so I could put a large lee filter there which would probably be the obvious place.

Right now with the combo I have the red meat blocks up and in the print is dead black.. which is not such a bad thing but without bones or other lighter tone material in the shot the red just falls short .

the image provided has the look I am after but as you can see the bone is creating the detail, other images, like a pile of hamburger meat , just ends up being a lump of black.

David Brunell
31-Mar-2012, 07:35
I would suggest experimenting with a light red filter to lighten the meat a bit. If you want the meat even lighter use a darker red filter, texture detail should still be apparent I would think.

cowanw
31-Mar-2012, 07:38
Filters will only change the tonal values of one colout to another. Raking light will maximize texture contrast.

Jim Noel
31-Mar-2012, 08:46
True solarization happens as the film is exposed and not in development. See Ansel's "Black Sun", or some of Man Ray's work for true solarizatiion. You will find the effect the near opposite of what you are accomplishing.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2012, 09:04
Jim

It may not be apparent in this image but there is a black makie line due to the exposure during development... I call this solarization but I do know that the makie line I get is exactly like some of Man Ray's works see Photographs by Man Ray 105 works 1920 - 1934 Dover books... the cover and many pages are identical to the effect I am getting with the film still lifes.. When I do print solarization I get a white mackie line which is not apparent with most of his work..
I have been doing this for over 10 years now and in the first few years I did not look at Man Rays work or Ed Buffaloe work for that matter so as not to be influenced.

I got all my methods from Mr Jolly's paper on solarization, and I can be swayed to call them the Sabbatier effect but since he calls the Solarizations I have kept the name.

Bob


True solarization happens as the film is exposed and not in development. See Ansel's "Black Sun", or some of Man Ray's work for true solarizatiion. You will find the effect the near opposite of what you are accomplishing.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2012, 09:04
I will look into the Lee Filter selection... any hints on which filter .

I would suggest experimenting with a light red filter to lighten the meat a bit. If you want the meat even lighter use a darker red filter, texture detail should still be apparent I would think.

Brian Ellis
31-Mar-2012, 09:27
What are the other colors in the image? As cowanw (where do they come up with these names?) said, filters are used to separate tones in b&w photography, usually not to simply make a single tone darker or lighter (which is generally better done by correct exposure and development). E.g. if you photographed a red apple and nothing else there would be no point in using a red filter, all that would do is make the apple lighter, something better accomplished by taking a meter reading of the apple and increasing exposure by a stop or two. But if the apple was surrounded by green leaves you'd probably use a red filter to lighten the apple without affecting the leaves and thereby create separation between the leaves and the apple (or you could also use a green filter to lighten the leaves without affecting the apple).

So whether a filter will do anything for you in your situation depends on what else besides the meat is in the image, what color(s) those things are, and what effect if any a filter will have on them and on the apple.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2012, 09:35
Very good point Brian
It may just be the way the film is recording red and I need to increase the exposure .

The background is common for all images but in this case the only items I am having problems with is the red meat.
As you well point out if I had other colours in the scene it is one decision on how to separate the different colours.. this case there is no other colour than the red meat and bones if they are present which record as white detail.
For example I have one image of hamburger meat , no bones and it just looks like a lump of black mass with no detail.

If I was correcting this in photoshop I would go into the colour range and add cyan which would have the effect of creating detail... so my first thought before I posted this question , was that I would require a cyan filter.
Yellow peppers really respond to my set up... anything red records poorly.




What are the other colors in the image? As cowanw (where do they come up with these names?) said, filters are used to separate tones in b&w photography, usually not to simply make a single tone darker or lighter (which is generally better done by correct exposure and development). E.g. if you photographed a red apple and nothing else there would be no point in using a red filter, all that would do is make the apple lighter, something better accomplished by taking a meter reading of the apple and increasing exposure by a stop or two. But if the apple was surrounded by green leaves you'd probably use a red filter to lighten the apple without affecting the leaves and thereby create separation between the leaves and the apple (or you could also use a green filter to lighten the leaves without affecting the apple).

So whether a filter will do anything for you in your situation depends on what else besides the meat is in the image, what color(s) those things are, and what effect if any a filter will have on them and on the apple.

Kirk Gittings
31-Mar-2012, 10:42
you need the "carnievore" filter...........

bob carnie
31-Mar-2012, 10:51
good one

Kirk Gittings
31-Mar-2012, 10:55
I like what you are doing with this project.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2012, 11:05
thanks Kirk


I am making 12 murals of the food group for a Contact Show in May and preparing for a show in Calgary in Feb /13 where I will launch the whole project.
Most everything is on a old century camera and I am having a lot of fun ..
I think I will be meeting some of the people you may have been involved with in Alberta... Paulette who has joined us on a ownership level went to Alberta College of Art and Design...and through her connections has landed us a couple of shows during Calgary's photo festival.

It will be dam cold in Feb but apparently nice people out west...


I like what you are doing with this project.

cowanw
31-Mar-2012, 13:21
As cowanw (where do they come up with these names?) .

I am crushed.
How can I change my label to william cowan or w. cowan or bill cowan?

David Brunell
31-Mar-2012, 13:25
I will look into the Lee Filter selection... any hints on which filter .

Sorry, I don't have any experience with the Lee system...I would think light to medium red + 1-2 stops should get you there?

Bill Burk
31-Mar-2012, 14:20
Hi Bill, Don't worry about the sigline, just sign your posts and we can call you by your preferred name.

Bob,

You can call it whatever you want pseudo-solarization or Sabbattier effect or solarization (incorrectly but we know what you mean).

Have you checked out Wynn Bullock's work 1946-1948? When I first heard you were dabbling in this I began to "worry" we would lose you to the same kind of research. Then I came to my senses. It's OK. Everybody needs to dive off the deep end once in a while.

Totally illogical, but if you made a test strip of a step wedge I think you could see where it's going. Use a green filter and make the rest of the scene predominantly mid-tone. Let the reversal bring out the red that received zero exposure from the camera image.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2012, 14:54
Bill

Talking about going off the deep end... could you explain the green filter idea as you are right the reversal does create tone where there is none. I did not think about reverse engineering this work... very good on you to think of this.

Solarization/ Sabbatier
I absolutely love this stuff, I will post the portraits I am doing tommorow,,, Big Head Pin Head diptichs.. if you look at your friends you will notice some have monster heads and some have tiny heads, I am finding these people in my friends and clients and doing this series... not very glamourous but these folks are keen... see where it leads.

So now I have to try a red filter, a cyan filter and now a green filter ... this will be interesting.. the meat series is very cool but for some kind of gross so I hope I do not offend any vegans when I post the images.



Hi Bill, Don't worry about the sigline, just sign your posts and we can call you by your preferred name.

Bob,

You can call it whatever you want pseudo-solarization or Sabbattier effect or solarization (incorrectly but we know what you mean).

Have you checked out Wynn Bullock's work 1946-1948? When I first heard you were dabbling in this I began to "worry" we would lose you to the same kind of research. Then I came to my senses. It's OK. Everybody needs to dive off the deep end once in a while.

Totally illogical, but if you made a test strip of a step wedge I think you could see where it's going. Use a green filter and make the rest of the scene predominantly mid-tone. Let the reversal bring out the red that received zero exposure from the camera image.

Bill Burk
31-Mar-2012, 16:07
I can't say much from experience (I only did Sabattier one or two times).

But from Todd-Zakia you can see the "illogical" grayscale.

http://www.beefalobill.com/imgs/Sabattier.jpg

Since you are using the Sabattier effect... and you want to create contrast between subject matter using color filters... if you don't get the effect you want by going the normal route (red filter to lighten red subject)... You can try the other direction (green filter to darken subject then Sabattier effect will lighten it).

bob carnie
1-Apr-2012, 07:31
Bill
That is a very cool chart.
I am splitting the development equally between the normal and unreal... as I call it.
my flasher is an old separation point light source I have modified with new bulbs... I bought enough for a life time.
I can control with power and limited time.( power is more desirable, since you can get flow marks (though sometimes nice) with longer flash times lets say over 4 seconds.
I have sometime pulled the print early but never extended the time in either of the devs.. This would be another complete set of variables to get my head around.
Its enough to know that in a print solarization, more exposure(burning ) at the enlarger creates a normal version of the image , and less exposure(dodging) creates the unreal version.
The trick is to find the split from normal and unreal in exposure and flash and play with it on either side.
It is really cool to have a very normal image that just drops off to unreal in only one area of the print.. almost like MAGIC.

I can't say much from experience (I only did Sabattier one or two times).

But from Todd-Zakia you can see the "illogical" grayscale.

http://www.beefalobill.com/imgs/Sabattier.jpg

Since you are using the Sabattier effect... and you want to create contrast between subject matter using color filters... if you don't get the effect you want by going the normal route (red filter to lighten red subject)... You can try the other direction (green filter to darken subject then Sabattier effect will lighten it).

bob carnie
1-Apr-2012, 07:37
It would be nice to see crisp lines within each patch , this would allow one to see the makie lines if they want to come out and play or not.
I think I am going to see if I can design a test negative to show this at some time .
Much like a 0-100 grey patch with each L density number inside it.

this chart is a Sandy King idea or at least thats who I heard it from... With 100 steps you can see failures within any print system and give you ideas on how to modify the curves..

If I am not wrong, and I have been wrong a lot , Ron Reeder uses this madness for QTR.
Known density values that are placed on end processes , then read using the scanner and PS program he developed. Then modify the curve shape so that the end process shows as much of the original chart in its proper densitys.

going on a tangent here as I really do not think I can make the Solarization process work this way but I can think of ways of making enlarge film that funks out in areas by drastically altering the curve shape and re outputting a new master neg.



Thanks Bill now you got me going