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View Full Version : New FS rule seems to claim its first victim



Darin Boville
30-Mar-2012, 20:43
I was thinking of the Ted Stoddard posts when I wrote my reaction to the new FS rule that discourages negative comments. A day or so later Asher posted in all of Ted's posts a very negative comment suggesting that Ted should not be trusted. All of those posts were deleted.

Now we have a buyer who is very upset with the item he received from Ted--apparently very much not as described:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?88896-FS-MAMIYA-RZ67-PRO-II-BODY-W-WLF-amp-FILM-BACK-400-Shipped

Do we still think the policy is a good one? It is really "buyer beware" on this board?

--Darin

Jay DeFehr
30-Mar-2012, 20:48
Making unflattering comments about a seller is rude (even if it's true, apparently), and bilking a buyer is just commerce, or so the rules suggest.

Leigh
30-Mar-2012, 21:00
"...bilking a buyer is just commerce..."

Amazing how the collective morals have declined.

It certainly appears that the current policy would leave the forum cadre open to being charged with "accessory to fraud".

The FS section is "use at your own risk".
But when the administration starts censoring the content, they are no longer innocent bystanders, but participants.

- Leigh

Kirk Gittings
30-Mar-2012, 21:16
I understand your point in general (i'm not sure I agree with it)-except in this case Asher's blanket posts in the FS section were deleted a day after the sale was already made. Prior to Asher's blanket postings in the FS section he had also already been told to solve it privately-which he blatantly ignored.

This is not an easy question. On the other side we have had wholesale condemnation of honest sellers here (pages and pages with public accusations of criminality) over what turned out to be simple misunderstandings. We simply cannot get into trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong in these situations. Our only interest really is civility and when that is violated we act.

rdenney
30-Mar-2012, 21:24
Keep bitching, guys, and the mods, out of necessity, will shut down the for-sale forum. You may not care, but I and a bunch of others use that forum frequently and depend on it for stuff just not available any other way. I hope you like ebay, because that's all there will be if we make doing it here miserable enough.

This ALWAYS happens when people are allowed to appoint the forum members as a jury, or take it upon themselves to protect the rest of the world from whomever they are aggrieved about. Little good EVER comes of it. I've been watching this stuff on forums and newsgroups since the mid-90's. In every single case where I have actual knowledge (and not just what gets written on the forum), gross distortions occurred, often by well-meaning people who thought they were right and justified to tell the story their way only.

"Accessory to fraud". Oh fer cryin' out loud. How did you get to be so old, Leigh, getting your blood pressure wound up the way you do? Now, did you like that comment? Supposing I told everyone that you bilked me out of, say, a hundred bucks. Are you sure your verbal skills are good enough to prevent any of that mud from sticking to you? Are you sure mine are bad enough not to be able to make it stick, even if I'm lying outright? Are you sure the things you've said to me haven't provided the slightest motivation for me to do so, were I not such a nice guy? The point is, you just can't know what is really happening out there in meat space.

Jay, we don't know what's true. We have no investigative powers or motivation. We tend to believe whomever writes their story in the most plausible and sympathetic way, especially if the other party, not desiring a golden shower, just stays out of the fray. Sorry, there is little room for fairness in that scenario.

The for-sale forum very clearly states that people are on their own, and assume all their own risk of buying or selling stuff to people they happen to meet on this forum. Usually, things go very well. Sometimes they don't. Yes, I've been screwed on occasion, too. It's the corollary to getting good deals most of the time, and I build it into the price I'm willing to pay for stuff. Vendettas don't discredit a seller--they discredit the whole idea of commerce on this forum. For some, that's a desirable outcome, I suppose. Not for me.

Rick "noting that Asher's thread was not deleted, but it should have been" Denney

Leigh
30-Mar-2012, 21:32
Yes, Rick, you're a nice guy.

And kind... We just don't know what kind. :D

I agree with you that the FS section is a valuable resource. I've purchased many items through it.
I certainly don't want to see it go away. I just wish the mods would be a bit less biased.

- Leigh

Jay DeFehr
30-Mar-2012, 21:37
Rick,

I have no problem with Use At Your Own Risk, buying or selling. My problem is with policy that favors one side of the transaction at the expense of the other. Supporting a seller is fine -- free endorsements, or reciprocal -- but supporting a buyer is taboo. Moderators shouldn't take sides in these transactions.

We don't know what's true, with that I agree 100%, but we do know who is being hushed, and who is not. That is not fair.

Frank Petronio
30-Mar-2012, 21:38
Kudos to Rick for calling it as it is.

John NYC
30-Mar-2012, 21:44
Keep bitching, guys, and the mods, out of necessity, will shut down the for-sale forum. You may not care, but I and a bunch of others use that forum frequently and depend on it for stuff just not available any other way. I hope you like ebay, because that's all there will be if we make doing it here miserable enough.


Fine. Shut it down. It is worse than eBay here if there is no way to look up historical negative feedback on a seller.

Let readers sort it out if a seller is being unjustly harassed by abusive negative comments -- I have faith they can.

rdenney
30-Mar-2012, 22:05
Rick,

I have no problem with Use At Your Own Risk, buying or selling. My problem is with policy that favors one side of the transaction at the expense of the other. Supporting a seller is fine -- free endorsements, or reciprocal -- but supporting a buyer is taboo. Moderators shouldn't take sides in these transactions.

We don't know what's true, with that I agree 100%, but we do know who is being hushed, and who is not. That is not fair.

Supporting a buyer is always acceptable, when the buyer is offering to buy something. "Jay's a great guy--always pays quickly" in response to your Wanted-To-Buy post would never get deleted nor should it. But if a seller posted saying, "That no-good SOB Jay DeFehr took delivery of something I sold him and never sent me a dime!" I'd be saying the same thing. In fact, it is fair--neither buyers nor sellers should be allowed to appoint the forum as a jury to arbitrate their disputes, or use the threat of public embarrassment on the forum to force an outcome favorable to themselves.

Edit: It only seems unfair because for-sale posts outnumber wanted-to-buy posts by a large margin.

Again, Asher's thread was allowed to run for a while--and longer than I would have let it run were I a moderator. He had his say over and over.

But this rule isn't about that. It's about litigating other disputes and engaging in arguments about prices in For-Sale threads.

Rick "who does not trust a jury with no investigative powers" Denney

rdenney
30-Mar-2012, 22:10
Fine. Shut it down. It is worse than eBay here if there is no way to look up historical negative feedback on a seller.

Let readers sort it out if a seller is being unjustly harassed by abusive negative comments -- I have faith they can.

Based on my experience, and I have been a moderator of another forum for a long time and have help investigate a number of issues on various forums and newsgroups, your faith is misplaced. I cannot think of a single case in my experience where the correct outcome actually occurred. In all cases, the outcome was distorted. My investigations into those cases were only possible because I knew the parties outside the forum and was in a position to ascertain the truth. That did not happen inside the forum, and when I reported what I found, many just didn't believe me. In every case, the outcome favored the person who could make themselves look more sympathetic. I learned the hard way that there is just no way to make it work. There are already mechanisms in place to arbitrate disputes, if they are worth arguing about.

Rick "good enough with words to know when not to trust them" Denney

John NYC
30-Mar-2012, 22:18
Based on my experience, and I have been a moderator of another forum for a long time and have help investigate a number of issues on various forums and newsgroups, your faith is misplaced. I cannot think of a single case in my experience where the correct outcome actually occurred. In all cases, the outcome was distorted. My investigations into those cases were only possible because I knew the parties outside the forum and was in a position to ascertain the truth. That did not happen inside the forum, and when I reported what I found, many just didn't believe me. In every case, the outcome favored the person who could make themselves look more sympathetic.

Rick "good enough with words to know when not to trust them" Denney

The whole "Joe is a good seller" can also just as easily be a load of bull. I have bought some stuff here from endorsed "good sellers" that is not at all as described.

Either allow all comments or no comments would be my vote. And if the latter, put in a rating system for post sale thumbs up or down.

Corran
30-Mar-2012, 23:25
Another forum I actively buy/sell at has a feedback system built into the site. It shows up under your username only when you are browsing the classifieds and is like ebay with a (number) in parenthesis of feedbacks. You can click and read positive/negative reviews. Might be worth checking into and I can send the site address to any moderator who would like to investigate their system.

Also, if you have any worries about a person, just pay with Paypal with a credit card and then you have all the recourse in the world as a buyer. If I know someone or have seen them selling frequently I'll pay with a "gift" but I know I have no recourse if things go south. You do what you can.

Jay DeFehr
31-Mar-2012, 00:55
Supporting a buyer is always acceptable, when the buyer is offering to buy something. "Jay's a great guy--always pays quickly" in response to your Wanted-To-Buy post would never get deleted nor should it. But if a seller posted saying, "That no-good SOB Jay DeFehr took delivery of something I sold him and never sent me a dime!" I'd be saying the same thing. In fact, it is fair--neither buyers nor sellers should be allowed to appoint the forum as a jury to arbitrate their disputes, or use the threat of public embarrassment on the forum to force an outcome favorable to themselves.

Edit: It only seems unfair because for-sale posts outnumber wanted-to-buy posts by a large margin.

Again, Asher's thread was allowed to run for a while--and longer than I would have let it run were I a moderator. He had his say over and over.

But this rule isn't about that. It's about litigating other disputes and engaging in arguments about prices in For-Sale threads.

Rick "who does not trust a jury with no investigative powers" Denney


You make a good point, Rick. I was too focused on buyer vs seller, but that's not the real issue, as you've rightly pointed out. But if the thread was a WTB thread, and it was allowed to post, "The potential buyer is a great and reliable guy, and no one should think twice about doing business with him", but it was not allowed to post, "I sent this guy X and never received payment, you should think twice about doing business with him", it's still wrong, and for the same reasons -- one party to the potential transaction is being extended special protection not extended to the other potential parties. It seems either an any comments or a no comments policy would be more fair and sensible than the current one.

Louis Pacilla
31-Mar-2012, 05:55
Keep bitching, guys, and the mods, out of necessity, will shut down the for-sale forum. You may not care, but I and a bunch of others use that forum frequently and depend on it for stuff just not available any other way. I hope you like ebay, because that's all there will be if we make doing it here miserable enough.

This ALWAYS happens when people are allowed to appoint the forum members as a jury, or take it upon themselves to protect the rest of the world from whomever they are aggrieved about. Little good EVER comes of it. I've been watching this stuff on forums and newsgroups since the mid-90's. In every single case where I have actual knowledge (and not just what gets written on the forum), gross distortions occurred, often by well-meaning people who thought they were right and justified to tell the story their way only.

"Accessory to fraud". Oh fer cryin' out loud. How did you get to be so old, Leigh, getting your blood pressure wound up the way you do? Now, did you like that comment? Supposing I told everyone that you bilked me out of, say, a hundred bucks. Are you sure your verbal skills are good enough to prevent any of that mud from sticking to you? Are you sure mine are bad enough not to be able to make it stick, even if I'm lying outright? Are you sure the things you've said to me haven't provided the slightest motivation for me to do so, were I not such a nice guy? The point is, you just can't know what is really happening out there in meat space.

Jay, we don't know what's true. We have no investigative powers or motivation. We tend to believe whomever writes their story in the most plausible and sympathetic way, especially if the other party, not desiring a golden shower, just stays out of the fray. Sorry, there is little room for fairness in that scenario.

The for-sale forum very clearly states that people are on their own, and assume all their own risk of buying or selling stuff to people they happen to meet on this forum. Usually, things go very well. Sometimes they don't. Yes, I've been screwed on occasion, too. It's the corollary to getting good deals most of the time, and I build it into the price I'm willing to pay for stuff. Vendettas don't discredit a seller--they discredit the whole idea of commerce on this forum. For some, that's a desirable outcome, I suppose. Not for me.

Rick "noting that Asher's thread was not deleted, but it should have been" Denney

Very well put Rick. I could not agree with you more.

D. Bryant
31-Mar-2012, 06:16
Keep bitching, guys, and the mods, out of necessity, will shut down the for-sale forum. You may not care, but I and a bunch of others use that forum frequently and depend on it for stuff just not available any other way. I hope you like ebay, because that's all there will be if we make doing it here miserable enough.



+1

D. Bryant
31-Mar-2012, 06:17
Fine. Shut it down. It is worse than eBay here if there is no way to look up historical negative feedback on a seller.



-10!

IanG
31-Mar-2012, 06:24
Very well put Rick. I could not agree with you more.

While I agree almost totally as well I'd just add that despite the disclaimers the Moderators do need to keep an eye on the odd rogue trader.

I know for a fact that occasionally information is passed between certain forums (which have a membership overlap) and that miscreant sellers have been asked to stop listing items for sale.

While moderators can't and probably shouldn't get involved in one off disputes it is important to notify them of problems. As it happens when I had a problem 2 others also came forward (one was a Moderator elsewhere) and information was shared, moderators helped get the finances resolved, but more importantly there was no public naming and shaming on the two forums in question and the person no longer sells on either forum.

Ian

lbenac
31-Mar-2012, 08:28
Another forum I actively buy/sell at has a feedback system built into the site. It shows up under your username only when you are browsing the classifieds and is like ebay with a (number) in parenthesis of feedbacks. You can click and read positive/negative reviews. Might be worth checking into and I can send the site address to any moderator who would like to investigate their system.

Also, if you have any worries about a person, just pay with Paypal with a credit card and then you have all the recourse in the world as a buyer. If I know someone or have seen them selling frequently I'll pay with a "gift" but I know I have no recourse if things go south. You do what you can.

A formal feed-back system would be great or a "requirement" for seller and buyer to put a final comment on a For Sale/For Buy thread.

These comments would help for transaction between forum members that have been active. I have sold/bought here of course and on APUG and I was fortunate to have most of my buyers writing very good comments after receiving the goods so that I can direct a buyer to the threads if needed. Other than that I would generally check the thread started/posts of a member, if good photos and technical comments have been posted I will sell/buy without worries :-).



For the Buyers with 0 posts then no feed-back or strategy will protect the seller from a PayPal or credit card fraudulent claim other than using the gift option.


For the record I just purchased an item from Ted Stoddard and made the payment as a gift on the basis of many successfull sales he has made on the forum.
Right after my payment was made, there was a warning and negative post on that thread. In fairness, if I had read that comment before, I would likely have asked Ted about this before making the payment and might have reverted to a normal PayPal payment instead.
While Ted took a little bit more time than other sellers to ship the item he did send me a tracking number and I expect the item to be as described. In other words I personaly have no reason to distrust him.
If that is the case I would certainly write a positive comment about the transaction - if not then I am sure that Ted and I can work something out to solve it.


While I agree almost totally as well I'd just add that despite the disclaimers the Moderators do need to keep an eye on the odd rogue trader.
I know for a fact that occasionally information is passed between certain forums (which have a membership overlap) and that miscreant sellers have been asked to stop listing items for sale.
While moderators can't and probably shouldn't get involved in one off disputes it is important to notify them of problems. As it happens when I had a problem 2 others also came forward (one was a Moderator elsewhere) and information was shared, moderators helped get the finances resolved, but more importantly there was no public naming and shaming on the two forums in question and the person no longer sells on either forum.

Ian

While I do not want to put undue burden on the Moderators I agree with Ian and I think that if a vendor/buyer is reported to the moderators by several forum members then a warning from them should be in order. One person complaining over 10 transactions is one thing but thre or four sounds a little bit different....
Cheers,

Luc

Corran
31-Mar-2012, 09:03
Personally I have purchased from many people with 0 posts on the site (new members) and I was fortunate as a seller when I first started here to have many buyers for a bunch of medium-format gear I was selling to trust me. I know many folks have a grievance with Paypal for one reason or another but for the most part it is a good enough way to protect both parties. There are always exceptions and people will surely tell all these anecdotal stories but for the most part it's fine. I think out of probably over 500 transactions I've had 2 issues (curiously both times as a buyer, despite the claim that Paypal always screws the sellers).

lbenac
31-Mar-2012, 09:08
Personally I have purchased from many people with 0 posts on the site (new members) and I was fortunate as a seller when I first started here to have many buyers for a bunch of medium-format gear I was selling to trust me. I know many folks have a grievance with Paypal for one reason or another but for the most part it is a good enough way to protect both parties. There are always exceptions and people will surely tell all these anecdotal stories but for the most part it's fine. I think out of probably over 500 transactions I've had 2 issues (curiously both times as a buyer, despite the claim that Paypal always screws the sellers).

I personnaly had a not so ggod experience as a Seller with PayPal/eBay but granted it was one out of many. Since then I tend to disagree like many as you are pointing out :-) but that is why we have a Democracy so that we can agree to somewhat disagree sometime.
I would rather use the forum as a reference mechanism for selling decision.

Cheers,

Luc

BrianShaw
31-Mar-2012, 10:44
The whole "Joe is a good seller" can also just as easily be a load of bull. I have bought some stuff here from endorsed "good sellers" that is not at all as described.

Either allow all comments or no comments would be my vote. And if the latter, put in a rating system for post sale thumbs up or down.

+1, but not because of any bad experience - all of my limited buying + selling here has been good experiences. All or nothing is just plain fair.

Frank Petronio
31-Mar-2012, 10:50
I just went to GetDPI and saw that Ark8012 was trying to scam-sell some Leica and left a nice negative feedback that was satisfying! But then Cindy Flood threatened to ban me so I have to weigh my next assault carefully to achieve maximum negativity.

But I'm coming around to advocating negative posts, it's a lot of fun and entertaining! Anything to cause drama and liven things up ;-p

E. von Hoegh
31-Mar-2012, 11:01
I just went to GetDPI and saw that Ark8012 was trying to scam-sell some Leica and left a nice negative feedback that was satisfying! But then Cindy Flood threatened to ban me so I have to weigh my next assault carefully to achieve maximum negativity.

But I'm coming around to advocating negative posts, it's a lot of fun and entertaining! Anything to cause drama and liven things up ;-p

You need to become a moderator. Then you can edit others' posts, start flamewars, and ban the culprits. Drama galore.

Fred L
31-Mar-2012, 13:34
I would never use the Gift option when using Paypal if you're buying gear as you would be SOL if the deal went south. Pay the percentage, which is pretty well the same as gifting. Of course, sellers should just factor in the Paypal cut into their price to begin with so it's plain and simple.

Imo, in general, decent sellers shouldn't even be asking buyers to mark payment as Gift. But that's just me.

Corran
31-Mar-2012, 14:10
I didn't know "Gift" payments were such a hot-button issue 'round these parts till a thread about it in the Lounge. When I first sold a bunch of gear about half the people payed me as a gift (without me asking). So I just assumed that was standard or something here. If I ask for that it's usually because someone asked for a price break. I have offered the same to other sellers. I know Paypal takes a 3% cut so that is usually part of the costs involved at the listed price, not at a low-ball offer, so it's kind of a meet-in-the-middle deal (Lower the price 10% but pay as gift eliminates fees).

I don't really know why people balk at a gift payment but there are plenty of sellers who require check or money order. That's essentially the same thing (you have no recourse). Some people say it's the "ethics" of it but I think they just want a method of getting their money back in the event of a problem.

Fred L
31-Mar-2012, 14:22
Nope, from the odd time I used it, the fees are passed onto the buyer who chooses the gift option. This presumes they're not paying from a PP balance. People think they're getting around the fees but it's the seller who doesn't pay (again, depends on where the money is coming from in your account). While one may get a price break from the seller for using Gift, it isn't worth it imo unless you're dealing with seller you have great experiences with. One should go to the Paypal site and look it over to be clear on how Gift works and what it costs if at all.

Basically pay with Paypal Gift and you're rolling the dice afaic.

lbenac
31-Mar-2012, 14:32
Basically pay with Paypal Gift and you're rolling the dice afaic.

Yes but as a seller - get paid with normal payPal and you are rolling the dice with fraudulent claim, different item returned or buyer remorse....Regretfully there is no happy medium which is where the feedback in the forum becomes critical.

Cheers,

Luc

Fred L
31-Mar-2012, 14:38
yup. as long as it's on point.

Dan Fromm
31-Mar-2012, 18:12
But I'm coming around to advocating negative posts, it's a lot of fun and entertaining! Anything to cause drama and liven things up ;-p

Frank, I'm sort of with you, but you left out protecting the innocent.

I just posted a very negative reply to a for sale listing on APUG.

The seller went beyond the limits of normal puffery ("One of Nikkor’s sharpest lense."). An example of the lens in question was tested by Modern Photography, Bjorn Roslett has published an evaluation, and I've had two (the first was stolen, the second was a replacement bought with the insurance money). We all agree. Ok and useful lens, closer to the bottom than to the top of the Nikkor barrel.

I sent the guy a nice (honest! polite, soft spoken, ...) PM suggesting he tone the language down and explaining why. He replied to the effect that he liked his and that bad ones make it through QC. One, yes, four no, so I posted the references with best resolution and contrast from MP on APUG.

Screw 'im.

Henry Ambrose
31-Mar-2012, 20:18
+100 on Rick's post.


Keep bitching, guys, and the mods, out of necessity, will shut down the for-sale forum. You may not care, but I and a bunch of others use that forum frequently and depend on it for stuff just not available any other way. I hope you like ebay, because that's all there will be if we make doing it here miserable enough.

This ALWAYS happens when people are allowed to appoint the forum members as a jury, or take it upon themselves to protect the rest of the world from whomever they are aggrieved about. Little good EVER comes of it. I've been watching this stuff on forums and newsgroups since the mid-90's. In every single case where I have actual knowledge (and not just what gets written on the forum), gross distortions occurred, often by well-meaning people who thought they were right and justified to tell the story their way only.

"Accessory to fraud". Oh fer cryin' out loud. How did you get to be so old, Leigh, getting your blood pressure wound up the way you do? Now, did you like that comment? Supposing I told everyone that you bilked me out of, say, a hundred bucks. Are you sure your verbal skills are good enough to prevent any of that mud from sticking to you? Are you sure mine are bad enough not to be able to make it stick, even if I'm lying outright? Are you sure the things you've said to me haven't provided the slightest motivation for me to do so, were I not such a nice guy? The point is, you just can't know what is really happening out there in meat space.

Jay, we don't know what's true. We have no investigative powers or motivation. We tend to believe whomever writes their story in the most plausible and sympathetic way, especially if the other party, not desiring a golden shower, just stays out of the fray. Sorry, there is little room for fairness in that scenario.

The for-sale forum very clearly states that people are on their own, and assume all their own risk of buying or selling stuff to people they happen to meet on this forum. Usually, things go very well. Sometimes they don't. Yes, I've been screwed on occasion, too. It's the corollary to getting good deals most of the time, and I build it into the price I'm willing to pay for stuff. Vendettas don't discredit a seller--they discredit the whole idea of commerce on this forum. For some, that's a desirable outcome, I suppose. Not for me.

Rick "noting that Asher's thread was not deleted, but it should have been" Denney

Henry Ambrose
31-Mar-2012, 20:43
And the "victim" in this case walked right into an offer by the seller to scam Paypal out of their fee. That should set off an alarm to a potential buyer when the seller is up-front telling you he wants to do something wrong. I don't like the fees much either but that's the deal you accept when you sign up to use the service. Do the deal as a gift when it is not and you might lose your money. Just don't expect everyone to be sympathetic to your self inflicted injury.

I don't know what the problem is, but lately there seems to be a lot noise about the way the forum is run. I sense a high level of entitlement among the complainers that reminds me of spoiled and ungrateful teenagers. Some nice people gave us a nice place to talk about Large Format photography, but now for a loud few people that's not good enough. Its really time to stop. If this place isn't working out for you, maybe its time to start your own forum.

Frank Petronio
31-Mar-2012, 21:17
I'm coming around to agreeing that not allowing anything other than the Original Poster on a For Sale thread, along with prominent "At Your Own Risk" warnings and a 30-day waiting period to discourage spambots is the way to go.

I didn't think it mattered but seeing that I am in the minority of the clearheaded people who think negative posts are a bad idea, I'd be willing to give up all those nice friendly and helpful positive encouraging informative posts for the greater good of keeping all you whiney bastards happy.

rdenney
31-Mar-2012, 21:23
I didn't think it mattered but seeing that I am in the minority of the clearheaded people who think negative posts are a bad idea, I'd be willing to give up all those nice friendly and helpful positive encouraging informative posts for the greater good of keeping all you whiney bastards happy.

+100

Rick "who can always count on Frank" Denney

Darin Boville
31-Mar-2012, 21:38
I'm coming around to agreeing that not allowing anything other than the Original Poster on a For Sale thread, along with prominent "At Your Own Risk" warnings and a 30-day waiting period to discourage spambots is the way to go.

But that's a difference without much distinction. The sale of an item is still treated as "special" by the board and is excluded from the normal give and take that characterizes every other aspect of the community. What is so special about the buy and sell forum? What makes what goes on there deserving of such protection from those bad people with their mean comments?

Do the sellers feel that if something "gets in the way of their sale" they aren't getting their money's worth for their classified ad? Do they feel that since they have posted an item they "own" that thread--in that case do I "own" this thread?

It's funny to hear you and Rick talk about whiners when it seem that you are the ones advocating kid's gloves for sellers. Don't you trust people to think for themselves? :)

--Darin

Darin Boville
31-Mar-2012, 21:39
Just a quick (ha!) note to explain myself. One of the key aspects of the LLF is a real sense of community. All of the other photo forums that I have visited are essentially worthless.

I think the right model for a forum like LFF is a sort of party, in a big room. People mill about in small groups, people drift from group to group. Everyone is here to talk about photography but that can be defined broadly and there are exceptions.

Over in one corner we have group talking about Linhofs. Frank has some sort of rusty version and everyone is commenting on it.

In another group Kirk is showing some of his recent work from the desert. Most people say nice things but one guy is more critical. The critical guy seems to be sincere and so the group debates his points. He ends up seeing Kirk's work in a better light at the end and other people in the conversation learn a thing or two about Kirk's working methods and how he views his own work.

The general principle at this party is that there is no one really in charge and that people will behave themselves. There are hosts however, who occasionally step in if things get out of hand. If someone gets out of control the hosts will ask them to behave. If they persist the hosts may ask them to leave for a few days. If it turns into a chronic problem the hosts can ban them from the party.

The hosts are here for the conversation, too, and they volunteer for their thankless task.

There is also a busy area of the party where people bring in stuff to sell. This is an area that attracts regulars and people new to the party. In fact, some people are here primarily for this group and don't mingle much otherwise.

In all the other groups the basic rule is you can say what you want as long as you behave yourself. There's an exception for religion and politics topics--conceptually welcome but hard experience has shown that these topics are destructive to the party istelf. There are plenty of other parties to talk religion and politics so, reluctantly, this rule is imposed and obeyed. There is also a rule that in one group people have to be a little gentle when critiquing photos. This is a group that attracts new photographers so it is healthy to nurture them a little.

Some people say the buy and sell group needs special rules of its own. For example, there are some who think that if someone is selling something in that group and you think they price is too high, or it isn't as nice as the seller says the item is, or that something else isn't quite right, you just need to shut your mouth. You can watch mutely as the seller sells it to one of the other party goers, maybe even a new one, but you aren't allowed to say what you think here. If you really have to say something, go to a different part of the room, out of hearing, or whisper your words to another party goer.

Others think that the more information the better--this group should be treated essentially the same as all the other groups. In the case of unfair negative comments these people think that the right response is more information (the correct kind). In this view it is believed that people can make their own judgements about things and don't need to be "protected" as a seller or as a buyer. The more the buy/sell forum acts like a free market--which, by definition, includes the free flow of information--then the more things will pretty much work themselves out.

Corran
31-Mar-2012, 21:39
Nope, from the odd time I used it, the fees are passed onto the buyer

The buyer only pays the fees if they pay with a credit card. If it's from your bank account you don't have any fees. It is understandable as the credit card company charges a fee to Paypal. I have payed as a gift numerous times, always from a balance or my bank account, and never paid a dime extra. They tell you that right there when you do it so I have no idea why people keep propagating that myth that the buyer pays the fees in the gift option. It's simply not true.

MYTH BUSTED

Frank Petronio
31-Mar-2012, 21:45
Unbusted... sorry

If PayPal thinks that you are paying too many transactions with the Gift option, they have the right and will impose the fee upon the sender. It's up to PayPal, some people trigger it easier than others but they must have some formula based on amounts, frequency, reputation.

Corran
31-Mar-2012, 21:48
I would love to see some specifics on that. I have done literally hundreds of transactions as gift as both buyer and seller. If anyone was to trip it I'd think I would!

*Besides, wouldn't that be illegal or something? It'd have to be in their TOS and seems highly suspicious, more so than normal even!

lbenac
31-Mar-2012, 22:01
I have payed as a gift numerous times, always from a balance or my bank account, and never paid a dime extra. They tell you that right there when you do it so I have no idea why people keep propagating that myth that the buyer pays the fees in the gift option. It's simply not true.MYTH BUSTED

Hello Bryan,

You are only partially right in the sense that when we Canadian make a payment as a gift we are charged a fee regardless. It is also impossible for us to take out US funds from PayPal to a bank account in USD. PayPal forces you to take the funds in CAD using their exchange rate.
I am not so sure why a few people get all upset about the idea of paymnet as a gift - getting all evangelical on us. It is not robbing Paypal of their fees as we still pay a fee for transferring the money which is quite normal. We are simply paying a lower fee as we are requesting a less extansive service from Paypal. Really the gift option is about giving some protection to the seller against unknown buyer. I fail to see the immorality of having a reputable seller getting some protection when dealing with an unknown 0 posts buyer.

Cheers,

Luc

Corran
31-Mar-2012, 22:17
Good point Luc, I didn't think about cross-currency payments. Duly noted.

Oren Grad
31-Mar-2012, 22:34
I would love to see some specifics on that. I have done literally hundreds of transactions as gift as both buyer and seller. If anyone was to trip it I'd think I would!

*Besides, wouldn't that be illegal or something? It'd have to be in their TOS and seems highly suspicious, more so than normal even!

PayPal User Agreement

4. Receiving Money.

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

Corran
31-Mar-2012, 22:38
Okay, but does it say they will start charging you a fee? That's the part that I'm curious about.

Oren Grad
31-Mar-2012, 22:40
Okay, but does it say they will start charging you a fee? That's the part that I'm curious about.

No, or at least not in the User Agreement.

EDIT: However, removing the ability to use gift amounts to the same thing - if you're only allowed to receive non-gift, you will necessarily be paying the fee.

Corran
31-Mar-2012, 23:09
But Frank was saying the buyer, upon selecting "gift," would be charged an extra 3%, which would be a fee added (not taken away). In your example you are talking about a seller, not a buyer. I'm just legitimately curious if/how they are doing that.

John NYC
31-Mar-2012, 23:20
We are getting way off topic here... but PayPal runs an enormously complex financial system that a lot of people (as evidenced in another thread about PayPal) here simply don't appreciate. Just like with stealing music on the Internet, some people think it is OK to not pay for something that is the life blood of those who produce the service/product just because it is easy. It is wrong, and I won't do business with people who are unethical. If you are buying something from someone, it is not a gift. If they give it to you, it is a gift. If you don't want to pay the PayPal fees, then don't use PayPal! Simple, AND ethical.

Frank Petronio
31-Mar-2012, 23:23
That is what has happened to me Corran. I think PayPal can tell (sometimes) when you're paying for something as opposed to just giving people money. It also distinguishes and charges whether it is checked as a gift or a payment owed.

I know this is critically important to you so let me check top be sure. I just gifted you $1000. Let me know if it comes through or if they take a cut. I paid in Rubles from my friend Vladimir Putin's account.

In any event, if we've been paying for purchases using the Gift option, we are breaking their rules. Not that I care that much, but I'll own up to it.

sanchi heuser
1-Apr-2012, 01:24
Why not block any comments on the sale threads?

Only the seller can give additional information, pictures, price release etc.
Limited bumps, maybe in the first week every day and then once weekly.
After the sale is completed the buyer should have access to give a feedback,
if the buyer wants to be private he can give feedback to moderator or other known and respected person, the moderator or person remarks eg. : "buyer gives positive feedback, quality of item is OK, fast shipping".

When problems occur the buyer and seller should try to settle this with themselves without public comments.
They should try to be friendly and fair and objective,
when someone said rude words there's ALWAYS the possibility
to make an excuse and keep on and sort it out.

If that doesn't work there should be a kind of ombudsman who cam mediate.
But only when the buyer and seller have made really enough efforts themselves.
Not run to the ombudsman after the first email whining: "this crook called me a dumb".
This is not a kindergarten ;)

cosmicexplosion
1-Apr-2012, 04:32
i think there should be some way of letting people know if a seller is a fraud, or lacks integrity, if people on this forum have been burnt, then as a group, the tribal logic is to stick together.

i am however not interested in psyco-dramas caused by misunderstandings that cause people to yell at one another.

i am interested in avoiding problems.

maybe the moderators can come up with a solution where by a seller can simply be barred from selling, if he is deemed a scoundrel.

i mean they ban people for talking in the wrong way:)

my two cents plus paypal fees.

Oren Grad
1-Apr-2012, 09:30
But Frank was saying the buyer, upon selecting "gift," would be charged an extra 3%, which would be a fee added (not taken away). In your example you are talking about a seller, not a buyer. I'm just legitimately curious if/how they are doing that.

You're right, my bad. What I posted obviously doesn't answer that.

evan clarke
1-Apr-2012, 11:06
I like the idea about removing the for sale forum..the space could be filled with talk about large format photography instead of posts which seem to be made by people quitting it...

John NYC
1-Apr-2012, 11:28
I like the idea about removing the for sale forum..the space could be filled with talk about large format photography instead of posts which seem to be made by people quitting it...

Good point! :-)

Old-N-Feeble
1-Apr-2012, 12:55
Do you swear the tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...? Whatever happened to simply telling the truth and being allowed to do so?

Of course it's best to settle things one-to-one but when that fails and the transgressor has either done a great wrong or many small ones then I darned-well want to know about it. And, if I've erred then I'll darned-well correct it. If I fail to correct my mistake then I "expect" to be called out.

I completely agree that, if we've reached a point that we need to make a grievance public, then we should do so with reason and politeness.

However, there seems to be... on every single forum... the intent to protect the seller more so than the buyer. Why is that? Is there backroom information we little guys are not privy to? Or is it simply a common practice which should be reconsidered?

Am I being terrible by asking if moderators can moderate under one name and sell under another? I'm not accusing... but it "looks bad".

Petty bitching is one thing and should be moderated. But telling the truth?

BTW, if anyone wants to see how bad pandering can "really" get... just mosey on over to some of the sites that take money from "vendors". Talk about pandering and taking sides... wow. Thank God this site is still clean of that mess.

NO, I don't think the mods are selling covertly. I FAILED to make my point and, other than deleting my entire post, I don't know how to clarify. I'm just saying that it can and does often "look bad". That's really nothing more than politics.

Frank Petronio
1-Apr-2012, 13:36
Am I being terrible by asking if moderators can moderate under one name and sell under another? I'm not accusing... but it "looks bad".

Yeah you have the wrong forum. The mods here absolutely do not do that. I may not always agree with everything they do but they are unimpeachable on matters like that.

Leigh
1-Apr-2012, 13:41
^^^^^^ Yeah, what Frank said.

- Leigh

Old-N-Feeble
1-Apr-2012, 14:03
Frank/Leigh... repeating what I already wrote... I just stated that it "looks bad". I also stated that it happens on "every single forum". I respect and appreciate the mods here too... but I'll not pander to them any more than I would either of you or anyone else if I have something to say. :)

John NYC
1-Apr-2012, 14:13
Wait, let me get this straight. You guys are saying the moderators sell under different names than they post under? Why would they even want to do that?

Leigh
1-Apr-2012, 14:15
Wait, let me get this straight. You guys are saying the moderators sell under different names than they post under? Why would they even want to do that?
ONF is the only one who has made that unfounded allegation, based on what happens "on every single forum".

Since I'm sure he's a frequent participant on every single internet forum, I must respect his opinion... not.

- Leigh

Old-N-Feeble
1-Apr-2012, 14:16
Oh, for Pete's sake. NO, I don't think they are. It was HYPOTHETICAL... a FAILED attempt at trying to make a point.

cosmicexplosion
1-Apr-2012, 14:18
Pssst...hey you, you wanna buy a watch...how about a dirty picture?



.

rdenney
1-Apr-2012, 14:34
Frank/Leigh... repeating what I already wrote... I just stated that it "looks bad". I also stated that it happens on "every single forum". I respect and appreciate the mods here too... but I'll not pander to them any more than I would either of you or anyone else if I have something to say.

With all due respect, there's a difference between pandering and accusing the mods, however indirectly, of playing two identities for nefarious purposes.

We keep talking about truth. My experience is that truth is elusive, even with people who mean well. My experience is that even in the most community-oriented online groups, not everyone means well. And my experience is that identifying the difference, with the limited tools available in a forum, works out similarly to throwing accused witches into a lake--if they drown, then I guess they weren't witches after all.

Even with the vast construct of the complicated feedback system provided by eBay, which has been used often as an example in this thread, conflict abounds. Nobody sane would volunteer to be an ombudsman--who wants to be in the middle of every argument, usually pleasing nobody and still having no investigative power necessary to learn actual truth?

While I think it undermines community, I would rather have the for-sale forum with no comments allowed except from OPs than not have it at all. And maybe it could be done without increasing the burden on the mods, which I think is a requirement that must be fulfilled.

One final bit of experience: It's quite common for people to volunteer ideas about how other people should do things. I have found myself in leadership roles in a variety of volunteer efforts for some reason I can't fathom, and have heard such advice endlessly. They mean well. But usually the people who are actually doing the work have already debated those topics thoroughly, and advice doesn't really help. I don't think it's pandering to the mods to avoid giving them "free" advice.

Rick "kindergarteners are often better behaved than groups of mission-oriented adults" Denney

Old-N-Feeble
1-Apr-2012, 14:43
All good points, Rick. I need to become more aware of when I'm too tired to post. I often state things poorly these days. My last post tonight.

John NYC
1-Apr-2012, 15:02
Rick -- the mods can run the forum any way they want. I guess it is their forum? Not sure who actually owns this forum. But one thing is for sure: now that I know that negative posts will (most likely) get deleted, I am going to be very careful about buying from anyone here who I do not already know is a good or bad risk to buy from. So, the damage is done for me. Last post on this topic for me.

Oren Grad
1-Apr-2012, 15:24
While I think it undermines community, I would rather have the for-sale forum with no comments allowed except from OPs than not have it at all. And maybe it could be done without increasing the burden on the mods, which I think is a requirement that must be fulfilled.

FWIW, GetDPI has tried to discourage extraneous posts in the Buy/Sell section. Note that it's not just about "price monitoring":

"Price Monitoring: If you're not the seller and think the price is wrong -- either too high or too low -- tell them via PM, not in public on the thread as it is poor etiquette. If your [sic] not a buyer or seller than you really have no business commenting on any of the items listed. Those discussions are best in the forum itself. "

Many comments still leak through; there are so many threads that it's difficult for the moderators to keep up. So per your proviso, I don't know whether it's practical unless there's a software switch that can be set to restrict follow-up post privileges for threads in a designated forum to only the OP.

Sevo
1-Apr-2012, 15:52
However, there seems to be... on every single forum... the intent to protect the seller more so than the buyer. Why is that? Is there backroom information we little guys are not privy to? Or is it simply a common practice which should be reconsidered?


It rather seems to be the (neo-liberal) spirit of the time. Considering that the buyer commonly is the one who first has to fork out good cash in hope to receive some potentially underwhelming (or in extreme cases of fraud even non existent) item days to weeks later, even the current buyer protection on ebay seems to stem from some dark period before consumer protection laws. Nonetheless, just about every forum with a for-sale section seems to be proud at having less checks on sellers than ebay...

Kirk Gittings
1-Apr-2012, 17:17
Am I being terrible by asking if moderators can moderate under one name and sell under another? I'm not accusing... but it "looks bad".

Old n Feeble. You've been a member here since February and this is what we get from you? After 4 years at this largely thankless job.........So that question about the shutters I have for sale was what? Some kind of test? A ruse? Jesus. I have to say that I oftentimes wonder why I bother with this forum with the crap we have to take from people like you. And I have never wondered more than now why I bother.

cdholden
1-Apr-2012, 17:19
Old n Feeble. You've been a member here since February and this is what we get from you? After 4 years at this largely thankless job.........So that question about the shutters I have for sale was what? Some kind of test? A ruse? Jesus. I have to say that I oftentimes wonder why I bother with this forum with the crap we have to take from people like you. And I have never wondered more than now why I bother.

"and that's why you get paid the big bucks!" :)

jnanian
1-Apr-2012, 17:47
what does use of this area is strictly at your own risk mean again ?

Leigh
1-Apr-2012, 17:55
what does use of this area is strictly at your own risk mean again ?
Shouldn't that apply equally to sellers?

Someone who posts an item for sale is open to whatever comments anyone wishes to post about same.

Protecting sellers but not buyers is simply not right.

- Leigh

Sal Santamaura
1-Apr-2012, 17:57
...I oftentimes wonder why I bother with this forum with the crap we have to take...You bother because you know that, despite the crap, this is the "least evil" large format photography forum in existence. Also, you know how many non-crap-slinging members here deeply appreciate what the moderators do / put up with.

You bother for the same reason you continue going to the polls, even having to hold your nose when voting. While not perfect, it's the best there is. :)

lbenac
1-Apr-2012, 18:01
I have to say that I oftentimes wonder why I bother with this forum with the crap we have to take from people like you. And I have never wondered more than now why I bother.

To help all of us having a nice place to mingle about LF and occasionaly sell between each other equipment so that we can mingle some more about our new lense or our old camera?

Cheers,

Luc

gth
1-Apr-2012, 18:27
I'm coming around to agreeing that not allowing anything other than the Original Poster on a For Sale thread, along with prominent "At Your Own Risk" warnings and a 30-day waiting period to discourage spambots is the way to go.

I didn't think it mattered but seeing that I am in the minority of the clearheaded people who think negative posts are a bad idea, I'd be willing to give up all those nice friendly and helpful positive encouraging informative posts for the greater good of keeping all you whiney bastards happy.

Hmmm, might be a good idea?

You always have an option, if you see a fishy offering/buy by a seller you've had a bad experience with, to send a pm to the buyer with a heads up warning. A word of mouth thing.

But I would miss being able to bump the thread, if I want to keep it on top and easy to find while I make up my mind. Also being able ask public questions and that stake holder post - "pm sent".

Besides, it would be a bitch to set up and police, probably.

I think it might be time to step back, whistle Dixie and let things roll.... after all, the recent bruhua are NOT that prevalent as a % of transactions.

If you wanted to tightening things up a bit, maybe you could require full profile disclosure by sellers, that is fully documented where you live, email and phone number.

And it seems to me.... just to comment on said bruhua......IF a seller get's a negative post, wouldn't it be best for the seller to proactively post "I am addressing this issue directly, by pm and phone to the buyer. I want my buyers to be confident they'll get my best attention, if there are any problems and issues with the stuff I sell" --- or some such.... Rather than NOT responding to negative post at all. That would diffuse the issue. In public at least.

There are a lot of options to resolve these issues. Transparency being the best. NOT communicating being the worst.

I'd say keep it all open, like it was, let it all hang out, and let people duke it out.

Bad actors will be revealed the fastest that way. Both sellers and buyers.

/gth

jnanian
1-Apr-2012, 18:31
Shouldn't that apply equally to sellers?

Someone who posts an item for sale is open to whatever comments anyone wishes to post about same.

Protecting sellers but not buyers is simply not right.

- Leigh

hi leigh,

sorry to not really answer your question but ...
i don't think negativity really solves anything.

Leigh
1-Apr-2012, 18:33
i don't think negativity really solves anything.
I agree that negativity for its own sake benefits nobody. I certainly do not condone nor advocate such posts.

But we must distinguish between negativity and honesty. That's a tough call in many situations.

IMO conveying accurate factual information, even if it appears negative, benefits everyone.

- Leigh

Old-N-Feeble
1-Apr-2012, 18:44
Kirk... I wasn't going to post again tonight because I'm not communicating well at the moment. I didn't intend to accuse. I was trying to make a point. I failed at it and I'm sorry. It was a devil's advocate type of thing.

FWIW..

gth
1-Apr-2012, 18:46
I agree that negativity for its own sake benefits nobody. I certainly do not condone nor advocate such posts.

But we must distinguish between negativity and honesty. That's a tough call in many situations.

IMO conveying accurate factual information, even if it appears negative, benefits everyone.- Leigh

And certainly not a call that moderators can make. So let it all hang out and when a thread jumps of track, BOOM, the thread it closed. No questions asked, no reasons given - take it somewhere else boys. Moderator Justice!

Generally I find the moderators here amazingly patient and liberal...... basically you can carry on as long as you don't insult or threaten others. Anything else of course would require endless parsing worth Solomon. When the moderators get tired of the horse pucky, door should close. By and large that works. Better than most "rules".

Leigh
1-Apr-2012, 19:00
Moderation is a thankless job. Minimizing its demands on one's time is a factor in making policy decisions.

I'm a moderator on an unrelated forum, with an activity level very similar to LFPF. I spend way too much time moderating.

- Leigh

welly
1-Apr-2012, 19:34
We are getting way off topic here... but PayPal runs an enormously complex financial system that a lot of people (as evidenced in another thread about PayPal) here simply don't appreciate. Just like with stealing music on the Internet, some people think it is OK to not pay for something that is the life blood of those who produce the service/product just because it is easy. It is wrong, and I won't do business with people who are unethical. If you are buying something from someone, it is not a gift. If they give it to you, it is a gift. If you don't want to pay the PayPal fees, then don't use PayPal! Simple, AND ethical.

I have to laugh at a discussion that has "ethics" and "paypal" in the same paragraph. Paypal are terrible. I use them because there isn't any alternative but that's the only reason and I have absolutely no issue with shafting them of a few dollars here and there particularly as they've done the same to me over the years.

John NYC
1-Apr-2012, 19:54
I have to laugh at a discussion that has "ethics" and "paypal" in the same paragraph. Paypal are terrible. I use them because there isn't any alternative but that's the only reason and I have absolutely no issue with shafting them of a few dollars here and there particularly as they've done the same to me over the years.

I find it very strange that (even assuming you are right that they have "shafted" you) that you think two wrongs make a right, and would then also argue ethics with me.

Frank Petronio
1-Apr-2012, 20:27
If you want more ethical behavior, requiring everyone to use their full legal name and location would help a lot. It would kill a lot of trolls too.

Leigh
1-Apr-2012, 20:34
...requiring everyone to use their full legal name and location would help a lot.
But Frank,

There's certainly only one John NYC. NYC is a very unusual surname.

- Leigh

lbenac
1-Apr-2012, 20:37
If you want more ethical behavior, requiring everyone to use their full legal name and location would help a lot. It would kill a lot of trolls too.

+1 with that except that any other detail should be released by pm only or by moderators. I do not really want my addess and phone number readely availabale for data mining.

jnanian
1-Apr-2012, 21:18
I agree that negativity for its own sake benefits nobody. I certainly do not condone nor advocate such posts.

But we must distinguish between negativity and honesty. That's a tough call in many situations.

IMO conveying accurate factual information, even if it appears negative, benefits everyone.

- Leigh

i agree leigh
but the problem is that
1 person's truth about a situation is another person's hallucination
there is really no way to come to a "truth" and no priceless camera to cut in half

Leigh
1-Apr-2012, 21:52
Well, we only allow true truths, not half-truths, nor quarter-truths, nor...

All subjective comments must be totally objective, without bias or prejudice against the guilty party.

- Leigh

George E. Sheils
2-Apr-2012, 04:29
If you want more ethical behavior, requiring everyone to use their full legal name and location would help a lot. It would kill a lot of trolls too.

I understand what you are saying, Frank but the reality is that the giving of a full legal name doesn't necessarily work.

Just think of Jorge Gasteazoro (mmmm....where is he now I wonder?)...and of course Tim Atherton...and Ted Stoddard have all come in for criticism from buyers...rightly or wrongly.

It's a real shame that things have got to this level, though.

Pity. :(

Shawn Dougherty
2-Apr-2012, 09:29
Wow. I've never had a bad deal here or on APUG... I know personally, or once removed, most of the people I've done business with. I always give my full name, address, cell phone number etc once a deal is reached. Sad to hear about this going on...

Noah A
3-Apr-2012, 06:05
I've had bad luck here. I've had two very bad buying experiences on this forum in the last month. One is involved in a paypal dispute and at least the other seller offered a refund. Both items were totally not as described. But since this has become such a touchy issue, I'm not telling any of you who the sellers were.

Frank Petronio
3-Apr-2012, 06:41
I've added my opinion a few times now. But regardless of where we are with sales on this forum, I can tell you that I am at the point of just buying new from B&H or from from places like KEH with consistent, conservative grading and easy return policies. It's worth the premium for peace of mind. I'm sick of eBay and PayPal, tired of vetting individuals and being anxious whether they are honest or not. I'm done. I've finished selling the stuff I don't use, I got the good gear I want to use for years and years, and I don't need anything else other than consumables.

If somebody lists a $300 8x10 Sinar Norma, slap me down.

Ralph Barker
3-Apr-2012, 07:37
If you want more ethical behavior, requiring everyone to use their full legal name and location would help a lot. It would kill a lot of trolls too.

You'll recall that we tried to encourage that (real names) a few years ago, but met substantial resistance from many members.

Peter De Smidt
3-Apr-2012, 07:51
Apug allows thread starters in the classified section to disallow additions to their thread. I don't know technically if that's easy to do, but if it is, then it might be a good solution. The moderators should not have to get embroiled in buying and selling dramas!

Old-N-Feeble
3-Apr-2012, 08:19
Maybe I'm just a confused old goat but I don't understand the difference between heated drama between the FS Forum and any other. Maybe the number of occurrences?

IMHO, provided the poster first tries to handle a disagreement off line and then is careful, precise and honest (in their opinion) with his/her verbiage (I'm guilty of that failure, BTW) then they should be allowed to post in open forum. That is, IMHO, the only fair and right thing to do. Otherwise, the few sellers inclined to take advantage will become emboldened and worsen their shenanigans.

rdenney
3-Apr-2012, 08:36
Maybe I'm just a confused old goat but I don't understand the difference between heated drama between the FS Forum and any other. Maybe the number of occurrences?

Probably not. More like the consequences. A heated argument about, say, whether digital photography is photography at all, or what constitutes Art, or any of the usual topics that cause the fur to fly, have few consequences, even when shiploads of umbrage are taken. Not much in those threads undermines future friendships or the camaraderie of the forum. And very little outcome hinges on those discussions, so there's no motivation to take a position in the hopes of forcing a particularly outcome through force of public embarrassment.

With buying and selling transactions, statements that impugn reputations have consequences for all involved parties, no matter whether they participate in the argument or not, and in my experience no matter who is right or wrong in real life. Simple misunderstandings get remembered as dishonesty, lack of communication gets remembered as thievery, and mutual pissing gets remembered as being disagreeable. Those outcomes are usually disproportionate, and often they turn out to be grossly unfair.

People talk about fairness a lot in these discussions, but my experience is that fairness is the first victim in an online conflict between a buyer and a seller.

The Moderators have never, in my recollection, prevented people from using the Lounge or other appropriate forum to try to track down an unresponsive seller or buyer (and buyers are every bit as likely to be unresponsive). I don't much like those threads, but they have been allowed enough so that nobody can complain that a repeated bad actor has no way of being exposed. That is not the same thing as lodging a complaint about a different transaction in one of the parties' other FS or WTB offerings, or trying to protect the innocent from spending more than the commenter (whose money is not at stake, either as buyer or seller) thinks is appropriate.

Rick "noting the difference between drama and real life" Denney

Old-N-Feeble
3-Apr-2012, 08:52
As usual, Rick, you make very valid points. Yes, of course, it's the consequences that are different.

Maybe a good compromise is to place a heading at the top of every ad suggesting that all those wishing to participate in the FS Forum always check the lounge for feedback. Can that easily be done?

rdenney
3-Apr-2012, 09:26
As usual, Rick, you make very valid points. Yes, of course, it's the consequences that are different.

Maybe a good compromise is to place a heading at the top of every ad suggesting that all those wishing to participate in the FS Forum always check the lounge for feedback. Can that easily be done?

I can't see that it is necessary. If people just come to the forum to buy and sell, they miss out on the natural protections provided by the community nature of the forum. As far as I'm concerned, they should treat it as though they are buying from Craig's List or from a newspaper want-ad. That doesn't seem too burdensome to me.

Rick "thinking the world has enough warning labels" Denney

dperez
4-Apr-2012, 08:14
I've been both a seller and buyer on this forum and had success in both instances. As a seller, the buyer and I agreed to split the Papal fees. No problems at all.

With regards to a rating system for transactions, I think we would run into problems there too. I mean what someone might consider bad service, another might be perfectly content with. For example, if a seller takes three days to send a package, I would not even worry about it, it's not a huge issue to me, and I wouldn’t even bring it up. To others that could be a serious problem. So we can expect as buyers and sellers to get hit with negative feedback for the most minor hiccups, real or perceived, and then there will be flame wars over the feedback ratings.

I think R Denney is right on, the mods don't have the time or the resources to invest themselves in policing the FS section. It has to remain as a "Use at Your Own Risk."

-DP

Louis Pacilla
6-Apr-2012, 09:48
If you want more ethical behavior, requiring everyone to use their full legal name and location would help a lot. It would kill a lot of trolls too.

Amen That Brother!

John NYC
6-Apr-2012, 10:27
Amen That Brother!

Actually, a lot of people on my personal blocked list use their real names, so that is irrelevant to me. And using a real name for a screen name is a red herring as far as sales goes, where I am concerned. If anyone buys anything from me, they get excellent communication and service, they end up knowing my full name and address. Perhaps that is why I have never been slammed on this forum during a sale and don't worry about accumulating negative comments.

The only REAL reason I can think of why people don't want negative comments allowed is they are afraid of getting slammed for their bad descriptions, poor communication, etc. Sure people can wrongly accuse each other, but if you have lots of emails during the transaction, and you are going above and beyond to provide good service on a sale you make, you will have the backup where the complainer won't.

Think about what happened with two very big luminaries who use their real names. They got slammed for not communicating. Staying in touch throughout the process is key.

Michael Graves
6-Apr-2012, 12:23
I find it very strange that (even assuming you are right that they have "shafted" you) that you think two wrongs make a right, and would then also argue ethics with me.

I agree with this sentiment 100%. If a seller is perfectly willing to break one set of rules to tip the teeter-totter in his direction, then how am I to assume that he isn't willing to commit other breaches of ethical protocol? Such as not deliver, deliver shoddy goods or other shady behavior. Fortunately, I have never experienced that on this forum. I've experienced it a few times elsewhere, but it's taught to to examine very closely how the seller treats "the rules". If a sellers idea is that rules are for people other than him, then I assume his merchandise is for people other than me. I don't respond to listings that say "Paypal as a Gift Only" or "Add 3% for Paypal" no matter how badly I want the item. When asked to do that, I refuse. I counter by offering to mail a bank check. Admittedly, early on in the game I didn't pay as much attention. I used to do it when requested, but a few Ebay encounters taught me some valuable lessons. The exceptions I make are my own. I add a few sheckles to the fee to help offset paypal fees if I know and trust the seller. That, however, isn't cheating the system. It is only depleting my wallet a little.

Old-N-Feeble
6-Apr-2012, 12:37
I agree with this sentiment 100%. If a seller is perfectly willing to break one set of rules to tip the teeter-totter in his direction, then how am I to assume that he isn't willing to commit other breaches of ethical protocol? Such as not deliver, deliver shoddy goods or other shady behavior. Fortunately, I have never experienced that on this forum. I've experienced it a few times elsewhere, but it's taught to to examine very closely how the seller treats "the rules". If a sellers idea is that rules are for people other than him, then I assume his merchandise is for people other than me. I don't respond to listings that say "Paypal as a Gift Only" or "Add 3% for Paypal" no matter how badly I want the item. When asked to do that, I refuse. I counter by offering to mail a bank check. Admittedly, early on in the game I didn't pay as much attention. I used to do it when requested, but a few Ebay encounters taught me some valuable lessons. The exceptions I make are my own. I add a few sheckles to the fee to help offset paypal fees if I know and trust the seller. That, however, isn't cheating the system. It is only depleting my wallet a little.

I agree. PayPal DOES suck... I KNOW. But cheating and thievery is just that. Why make it a daily habit?

I always wonder why two lovers, who are both cheating on their currently legal husband/wife and leave them to be together, trust each other to be faithful to one another in the future. It makes me laugh and cry at the same time.

photobymike
6-Apr-2012, 15:15
This is a perplexing problem as i can see the logic of both sides. A big help would be if the buyer could do some do-diligence in researching the seller. It would go a long way to increase buyer confidence. Maybe if there was disclosure on participation with Ebay and or with a company. Or maybe a way to keep tab on successful sales here on LF. Maybe a moderator just for the Sale section to research the sellers... Maybe these problems could be handled in a private way if this sale moderator had info on the seller like phone number addresses. Maybe this moderator could handle problems between sellers and buyers..... how about strict rules on how an forsale add could be worded. Enforcing paypal payments, money orders, or personal checks only (some people dont like paypal) Making a payment this way ties the payment to the product or service. Making payment as a gift payment thru paypal for the purchase of goods or services is not a good idea, it puts the buyer at risk... If the moderators of the Forsale section would demand that certain rules apply on how the ADD was worded... ... if a seller uses paypal, they can accept checks and credit cards from buyers.... then they handle the problems if the sale was done to there strict rules. Maybe the LF could charge say 1 percent of the total sales to cover the expense of do-diligence in research of the sellers. Maybe a use paypal rule only for sellers, credit cards echecks...ect... Maybe Paypal only option would be a good option as it give a way to check the sellers reputation.

This is just some of my thoughts some good some bad....I dont know.... i do not have any experience with these problems. I have sold here and bought also... all experiences have been great...

I have been thinking about this all day... because you see i watched the seller in question unravel ... even talked to him..... and pretty much there was no way could tell anyone.....other than with my Ebay feedback. Maybe there is no answer... i would hate to see the sale section go away.

Leigh
6-Apr-2012, 16:13
A big help would be if the buyer could do some do-diligence in researching the seller.
How are you supposed to do that if they won't allow negative comments.

There's no forum on the site where such discussions would be appropriate other than in the Classifieds.

(BTW, it's an AD, short for advertisement, not an ADD.)

- Leigh

Old-N-Feeble
6-Apr-2012, 16:20
You ALL SUCK. My comments will DESTROY YOUR reputations. I'm angry with one tiny deal we did and the overall picture doesn't matter. I'm the seller and F-- all of you buyers cuz' I'm gonna destroy anyone who spouts a single negative word against me. You angry buyers are all DEAD... ALL of you. I'm gonna sell you CRAP and you can't do ANYTHING ABOUT IT NOW. Ha, ha, ha, ha.... hah, hah, hah!!!!!!!!

BrianShaw
6-Apr-2012, 16:22
Have another drink, amigo. :D

Old-N-Feeble
6-Apr-2012, 16:23
^^^ You're already three behind me. :D:D:D

And... I sympathize with both sides because I've been on both sides... many times.

BrianShaw
6-Apr-2012, 16:24
LOL. How did you know?

Old-N-Feeble
6-Apr-2012, 16:27
LOL. How did you know?

Due to your wisdom. How else would I know?

falth j
6-Apr-2012, 19:28
Reference:

POST #3

30-Mar-2012, 21:00



“Amazing how the collective morals have declined.”



And along the same line of thinking:


A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively…


what no one believes individually,


or has the courage to be the lone voice saying his mind pursuant to an opposing viewpoint ”



Therefore, we have consensus builders.


People, who individually will not, or are unwilling to take blame,



but as a committee, they will say almost anything,


knowing full-well, the committee as a whole,


is virtually blameless, because it is policy by consensus!

Vaughn
6-Apr-2012, 19:32
Actually, that is about 180 degrees from what a consensus is.

Jay DeFehr
6-Apr-2012, 19:52
Actually, that is about 180 degrees from what a consensus is.


A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively…what no one believes individually


I don't know for certain, but that line smacks of H.L. Mencken

Vaughn
6-Apr-2012, 20:32
Robert Heinlein, the Sci-fi author, also sounds like this (Stranger in a Strange Land became a bit of an embarrassment for him later on), though I enjoyed his fiction. Mencken does seem like an interesting fellow...sort of a Mark Twain of his time.

rfesk
7-Apr-2012, 09:06
Back in the old Shutterbug Classified days I sometimes asked for references before purchasing an item from a seller I wasn't familiar with. Maybe a phone call to the seller can help if the description doesn't seem clear enough.

For what it is worth, I have had far less problems (none) here than on E-bay when it comes to accurate descriptions.

Old-N-Feeble
7-Apr-2012, 09:14
^^^ With no repercussions that could, no WILL, change here...

photobymike
7-Apr-2012, 10:04
Back in the old Shutterbug Classified days I sometimes asked for references before purchasing an item from a seller I wasn't familiar with. Maybe a phone call to the seller can help if the description doesn't seem clear enough.

For what it is worth, I have had far less problems (none) here than on E-bay when it comes to accurate descriptions.

With a phone number and a confirmed address i would buy from anybody thru paypal. Because i know i could go to small claims court if i had to, but hey paypal handles all that .... Paypal is a good arbiter ( define; arbiter - someone chosen to judge and decide a disputed issue ) they usually come down on the side of the buyer... but it makes the sellers more careful ... Like em or hate them... paypal is best there is for now for buying over the internet..... They have feedback stats you can look up on any seller.

This whole issue could be solved with adherence to a couple of rules when listing.... does not even have to be watched by the moderators.. other than 1. use paypal 2. type of paypal payment desired 3. shipping info 4. photos and description. Paypal under some circumstances takes the risk... which the sellers know by heart.... I personally lost a 1500 laptop a few years ago for not following the rules of a paypal sale.... sooo am very careful...

The only comments allowed are "nice camera" or "wish i could buy" or clarification on the description.

Regards Michael Green - Photobymike

Old-N-Feeble
7-Apr-2012, 10:08
PayPal is not an arbiter. They arbitrate in their own best interest which often does not coincide with the average client. They make it easy on themselves... screwing over the least likely client to raise legal issues. Profits... losses... fewer headaches...

photobymike
7-Apr-2012, 10:19
PayPal is not an arbiter. They arbitrate in their own best interest which often does not coincide with the average client. They make it easy on themselves... screwing over the least likely client to raise legal issues. Profits... losses... fewer headaches...


That has not been my experience. I have won several problems on ebay... i would say compromise is there specialty and is my experience in dealing with them.... If you follow the rules that they publish they will pay... that has been my experience also. I am not saying they are not the end all way of dealing with internet sales but if there is a better way let me know please... In reality the worst place to buy something is on the internet... really ... It would be better to buy your camera stuff at a store where you can "touch and feel" .. I am so familiar with some cameras i can feel or hear problems..... oh by the way did you know in may that Ebay and paypal are going to force sellers to give a minimum 14 day warrantee with 30 and 60 day options. I bet they are tired of the junk cameras being pushed on ebay. So no ASIS purchases in the camera section anymore.

Old-N-Feeble
7-Apr-2012, 10:23
^^^ That was the case BEFORE eBay bought PayPal. Not anymore... at least not in my last experiences with them. Once I'm lost as a client... ALWAYS lost as a client. If they REALLY ARE protecting sellers AND buyers then I MIGHT reconsider...

Corran
7-Apr-2012, 17:46
Like I've mentioned before, the only two times I've been screwed by Paypal was as a BUYER. They simply DO NOT always side with the seller - that's a fact!