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View Full Version : Mistake: new rule about FS comments



Darin Boville
25-Mar-2012, 20:19
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?88887-New-Forum-Rule-re-Intruding-on-For-Sale-Discussions

I think this is a mistake. Is this no longer a community? Doesn't it mean something to be in a community? Is commerce so sacred here that we dare not say anything on a for sale thread lest our post get deleted for being "negative"?

To my mind commerce is not the central, near holy objective of this board. It should not receive such special protection.

Imagine the strange social structure this requires. A few people are walking through the market. They share a common interest in photography--in fact that is what brings them together. One sees an item that interests him. He's new at photography and doesn't realize that $500 is too much for a Calumet C400. But no one says a word lest they "interfere with the sale." Is "the sale" that sacred?

I welcome comments on my for sale threads. i want all of my buyers to know they are getting what they need, and getting a fair deal. No "buyer beware" on my threads. If someone makes an unfair comment about one of my items I will--gasp!--counter their argument with evidence to support my side. Or realize I made a mistake. That's how adults play. Except on all those other sites that suck.

--Darin

Leigh
25-Mar-2012, 20:53
Prohibiting only negative comments is counter-productive.

It implies a positive endorsement of the sale which is not valid by allowing only positive comments.

If they choose to prohibit comments, they should prohibit all, whether positive, negative, or neutral.

- Leigh

Kimberly Anderson
25-Mar-2012, 20:57
I'm kind of with Darin on this one. I have posted things for sale recently that I thought I had a handle on price, condition and even exactly what the item/s were. I have been nudged to adjust prices here and there due to folks chiming in and explaining what their rationale was. I am OK with that, and so far it has been productive for all parties.

I have not been forced to sell items at prices lower than I thought were acceptable, in fact one camera is still for sale b/c I feel the value in the package is higher than what others have indicated. Am I right? Maybe...maybe not. Time and a potential buyer (or lack thereof) will tell.

I say leave it well-enough alone.

mdm
25-Mar-2012, 21:05
I have been screwed in a small way more than once on the FS section. The question is do the moderators decide what goes or the local thugs. I think the moderators are the best bet, they tend to not be heavy handed. It gives them the power to remove objectionable posts if required to maintain a fair exchange and should not stop people pointing out fair and reasonable deficiencies in descriptions and pricing, after all, worst that can happen is your post will be deleted. They should not police the FS section, only the fairness of the discourse and then only as a last resort. Fact is it is available for anyone, to be used but not abused. One hopes that people value a reputation for fairness and honesty more than money, but people will push the limits, one hopes that it can still be dealt with openly.

Vaughn
25-Mar-2012, 21:06
I have had to restrain my fingers many times..LOL! And sometimes the item does sell, much to my surprise (and showing how much I actually know about pricing!)

I suppose, Darin, you can add "All comments welcome" to any of your sale posts. But in the end, the lack of anyone buying an item will tell the seller more than our words will. And one can always send a friendly PM if one can not keep one's beak out of a sale...it does not have to be public whipping even on a public forum...

Vaughn

photobymike
25-Mar-2012, 21:13
Darin i agree with you... and i have sold some of my stuff here. I did not visit here to sell; i know i am under the scrutiny of many savy photographers. I would not get more than its worth or take advantage of any person i sell to. Keeping in mind; "the least i will take and most you will give is the worth of any product or service". If for any reason any person who has bought from me are not satisfied with what they got from me, i want to here about it. You dont have to be rude or obnoxious but opinion is why we are here ( photo opinions ) i mean. If i was advertising something that another member did not agree on the price i would like to hear about it. I can justify (KEH or Ebay) the prices i ask for any given product i sell. The one thing that would be hard to tolerate would be a member cutting in with a person on a sale or a buyer. example (i have that lens for sale for 50 bucks cheaper)... now that would be rude to post. I am not here on the board to sell stuff i do this on Ebay and the local flea market... besides my photos make me more money than sellin stuff here. I sell stuff here that would be of interest to the group community. Makes me feel like i am contributing to profession and to the group here. I really dont mind someones opinion on price or product while here. As long as a esprit decorum is maintained. < look it up if you have to...... I consider everyone on this board as a friend and if they want to say something...

sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. 70848

photobymike
25-Mar-2012, 21:15
Then again we are in someone else's sand box

lenser
25-Mar-2012, 21:24
In Ken's announcement of this new rule, he has made it a closed post so no responses seem possible. I have sent him a direct personal message with my feelings against this decision and I suggest that others who agree, do the same, as well as responding in this open forum. As a frequent seller who firmly welcomes all comments either negative or positive, I feel that this is a serious breach in our ability to add to the discussion about items being offered. Yes there may be some members who might abuse the privilege with bitchiness rather than constructive criticism (I too have been victimized in that way), but I have a thick enough skin to weather that storm with ease and to be VERY welcoming of someone who might point out an error in my information (which has also certainly happened a time or two). Just because a handful of commentors may have been raised without the benefits or learning courtesy, it is dead wrong to eliminate all of the helpful critics who may offer a legitimate assist by pointing out errors. Ken, please seriously reconsider this poor call. This is a poor place to let political correctness rear its ugly and misplaced head!

Frank Petronio
25-Mar-2012, 21:52
Ken is right, people should not post negatives in the For Sale section as a rule because you can not enforce who is going to make an intelligent, worthwhile comment and who is going to say something stupid.

Like the guy trying to sell the 8x10 Gowlandflex for $8K a couple of weeks ago - we all could have told him he was nuts but it's not our business. Obviously if it's an ad for Nigerian time shares then it's fun to pile on, but say you were trying to sell a Sinar and some bozo comes on talking about how heavy they are or something negative like that? Their flip remark ruins your sale - that's not fair at all.

It's a lot better to promote the good sales with, "Hey this would make a great beginner's outfit" or "Good Luck" and be quiet about the bad deals. If you see a friend about to make a mistake just send them a private message.

I know you guys have good intent but if they allow negative comments there will still have to be moderator involvement and attention - this would only open up a subjective, arbitrary quagmire for the moderators.

People here are adults, they agree that these sales are at their own risk and they need to do their homework. I've gotten screwed a few times too but overall it works very well as it is. Besides I haven't seen that many really awful deals, just people who price stuff too high. Their lack of sales is all the feedback they need.

Really how many $500 Calumet Coathangers have been sold here so far? Who has overpaid for anything lately? It's more likely the other problem, really nice cameras lingering even at modest prices.

John NYC
25-Mar-2012, 22:22
I don't agree with the rule. Either make it to where you cannot put any reply on the for sale post or allow any comment whatsoever. Who are we trying to protect exactly with this new rule?

Lachlan 717
25-Mar-2012, 22:42
If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, then mind your own business; it's nothing to do with you.

Struan Gray
25-Mar-2012, 23:32
I agree wholeheartedly with Darin, for exactly the reasons he gives.

We are supposedly all adults, and I can see the value of the "quit whining and do your homework" attitude, but this is where I come to do that very homework, precisely because a community consensus is allowed to emerge. A blanket 'no-criticism' rule just lets the hit-n-run scammers dominate things. Sometimes, childish wags are our best defense.

Tim Meisburger
26-Mar-2012, 00:22
I Think I'm for the free speech crowd. I tend to be a buyer, not a seller, and if someone wants to trash something I'm thinking of buying, I'd like to hear their opinion. I do my own research as well, and anyone who has been around a while knows whose opinion is worth something, and whose not.

Frank's comments are funny. Either ironic or facetious, as he ruined many a sellers chances the other day with his flippant "20% off for this and 50% off for that" post. I enjoyed it though, and will use it in my arguments to beat down sellers. "Frank said its only worth...

Adrian Pybus
26-Mar-2012, 00:38
I'm with the free speech crowd too. Or possibly no comments allowed whatsoever only PMs. Anything in between isn't going to work. Positive comments only can also be abused and then we can't correct a false positive comment 'cause that would be negative ...

IanG
26-Mar-2012, 01:50
Rules are for breaking, that's why we have them in life. Perhaps the wording of this one is quite subtle as it says "refrain" rather than that negative comments are disallowed.

Ian

Sevo
26-Mar-2012, 02:52
If they choose to prohibit comments, they should prohibit all, whether positive, negative, or neutral.


Well, if it is a community, comments should be allowed, regardless of general tendency. Cases where some commenter is stalking a seller for personal reasons or similar abuse is taking place tend to be pretty obvious, and can be dealt with by moderator intervention - there isn't really a need to restrict commenting just for that.

Banning comments works out to the advantage of experienced high price sellers and to the disadvantage of beginners, as it effectively prohibits community price building. This is common and perhaps inevitable on sites that operate their classifieds section for profit, but as far as known we are none of them. And even though the long time participants will mostly have grown somewhat into bargain hunters and profitable sellers, it should not really be the objective of our community to be partial in favour of them - in the long term we'll be harming large format photography if we benefit old collectors more than young photographers!

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 05:19
So when someone wants to sell their $2000 Master Technika and somebody comes along and posts that it is only worth $1500 to them and that one sold on eBay last week for $1475, etc. but the seller still wants $2000 for their camera, and can wait a few weeks until the right buyer comes along, these negative comments would make it much more difficult for them to maintain their price. At least in an auction the buyer sets the price - in your proposed Utopian community the uninvolved (but benevolent and wise!) mob set the prices for you.

Of course the community must know better than you do... ?

What's to stop people from beating sellers into lower prices as a matter of course? After a learning period, won't it be human nature to post a few "the price should be lower" comments and then swoop in?

And aren't you guys complaining about a non-issue? I haven't seen anyone overpay here in years, can you point to a single example of a sale where you think some poor newbie got taken advantage of?

Sorry for venturing into politics but this is the essence of self-determination. I really don't think the mob or a committee or any group of photographers knows what is best for me. And it sounds like a lot of you have a higher opinion of how humans behave, especially in groups.

I wouldn't sell under those conditions, an eBay auction would be fairer. I don't have much to swap anyway so it's a non-issue personally but I think allowing negative comments is going to put a damper on what has been a pretty successful status-quo where there has been very little, if any, abuse.

vinny
26-Mar-2012, 05:40
Whaaa!
Pm sent.

Jim Jones
26-Mar-2012, 05:50
This forum is my most treasured source of online photographic information. Just as freedom of the press is the foundation of democracy, the freedom to post inteliigent, constructive, but occasionally negative comments make the site strong. Not all comments have been nice, but even the quibbling occasionally has value. The few who abuse this will soon be hoist with their own petard.

BrianShaw
26-Mar-2012, 06:40
Sorry, Ken, for sending my comment via PM when I could have posted here instead. I sent the PM before seeing this thread.

BrianShaw
26-Mar-2012, 06:42
If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, then mind your own business; it's nothing to do with you.

This is basically my belief too! And that goes for "constructive comments" on FS postings also. People should start their own thread if they want to chat about a particular type of camera. What frosts my b@ll$ are the "bump for a nice seller" types of postings. WTF?

Ralph Barker
26-Mar-2012, 07:10
Generally speaking, we don't like "rules". Thus, if a rule exists, it's a good indicator that there have been too many cases of individuals going overboard with something. But, to keep moderation fair and even-handed, we also use the Guidelines as the basis for moderation. It gives us something to point to when individual behavior goes astray. This avoids the "But, where does it say I can't do that?" problem. We also try to be fairly precise in how we word items in the Guidelines, so our intent is properly reflected, while retaining an appropriate amount of "wiggle room" for rational moderation.

Noah A
26-Mar-2012, 07:12
I've had sales fouled by negative comments. I had one lens listed, the lens happened to have a tiny pin-sized coating mark (which was clearly disclosed in the ad). Some busy-body made some comment like "you want that much for a lens with a coating mark?". He basically made my ad useless so I deleted it and sold the lens on ebay for more than I was asking here!

But on the other hand, there are some ads where the seller isn't sure what he or she has (and since prices are mandatory, who wouldn't aim high?). Some may even be misleading due to a wrong model number, etc. So when, for example, someone chimes in to say something isn't what it's being presented as, that can be helpful, especially to less-experienced buyers. I do think that simple "your price is too high" comments are useless and rude.

In some cases there may be a fine line between helpful informational posts and less helpful judgements on pricing. So even though I've been burned by these types of comments, I think that it is a mistake to limit them.

Considering that I've had worse experiences buying stuff here than on ebay, I'll probably stop using the B&S forum anyway. But I think this rule goes too far.

BrianShaw
26-Mar-2012, 07:17
Why not use PM for comments... for both positive and negative, then let the seller decide how to adapt his sales and marketing effort? Seems both simple and polite.

rdenney
26-Mar-2012, 07:31
The only time I respond to for-sale ads is to explain something the seller has not explained, that might be misleading to the newer members of the forum. A recent example was explaining that a Sinaron-S, which included APO in the title, is an APO-Sironar-N, not the APO-Sironar-S hinted by a mis-typed dimension in the title (which the moderators corrected after it came out). A Sironar-N is a superb lens, but the S has more coverage and attracts a higher price, so a mistake there is mislead, certainly not intentionally so by the seller. I did mention that the distinction should affect the price, though I didn't say how much--let the seller figure that out based on market response. There is no shortage of pricing information on the internet and people who buy common items in ignorance get what they get with no sympathy from me.

I will also describe items that are not that common but where I have specific knowledge the seller doesn't, in order to help build the market. This happens mostly with the ex-Communist stuff that I have studied for a number of years. There are lots of things out there that people come by and want to sell that have special qualities unknown to them but that might be also unknown to someone who might prize that particular quality.

And there have been times when I chuckled to myself. But if the product was fairly represented, then buyers can do their own research.

I think my approach is consistent with the new rule. But if I run astray and a post gets deleted, then I'll adjust to the new boundary.

Rick "who has paid high prices at times for something valuable to me beyond what it might be to others" Denney

cowanw
26-Mar-2012, 09:10
What a great price. If I did not already have five of these I would be all over this.
I can't believe this hasn't sold yet.
This is a steal.
"Anonamus" is a friend and I highly recommend you buy from him.

These sorts of gratuitous meaningless positive comments drive me crazy.
If you are going to ban one kind of comment you should ban both.
To allow only positive comments is to favour the selling member who has the best spin with the buying member having no spin.
Puts me in mind of the thread in which Fluidrive sold his 14 inch Pinkham
One post creating mild suspicion: another with mild personal support; neither really pertinent.
The recent post for a home made camera demonstrated poor judgement with a inapropriate negative comment which was quickly corrected by other members followed by a reconciliation.
I think the new policy is an over reaction to this recent thread.
But there has been value in the past to negative comments which have driven VERY poor sellers away or readjusted new sellers to the true value of some item (say for example an enlarger).
It is never a good idea to adjust policy to try to avoid the extreme outliers as society's past adoption of zero tolerance policies have demonstrated

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 09:17
Sorry to have offended you with positive comments. When I do leave them I mean them as genuine and am trying to be helpful. Seems better than "bump" every hour as some people do.

What's on General Hospital today? I have to go to the doctor and then visit the priest later. Then go get my hair dyed blue. Obviously we're a bunch of old ladies here.

Sevo
26-Mar-2012, 09:19
So when someone wants to sell their $2000 Master Technika and somebody comes along and posts that it is only worth $1500 to them and that one sold on eBay last week for $1475, etc. but the seller still wants $2000 for their camera, and can wait a few weeks until the right buyer comes along, these negative comments would make it much more difficult for them to maintain their price.

Why would it? The fact that there are competing auctions starting at $1 and fixed price sellers selling at $1500 won't make your $2000 offer on ebay impossible to maintain either - and these are firm material competition rather than a mere third party opinion backed up by no offer.

Besides, I don't think I've ever come across anybody using the comment function to talk down a realistically priced camera or lens below market value - so the above isn't really a issue.

Noah A
26-Mar-2012, 09:22
What about if we get ripped off as I recently did on a lens purchase? May I respond in a public post after the sale or would that be considered 'rude'?

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 09:27
OK Sevo, say you're trying to sell your Schneider lens for 300x, which is what you have invested in it and is a reasonable price.

Some random person comments that they just bought the same lens for 150x. They don't have to substantiate their statement, it may have been an anomalous price, it could be your ex-wife's boyfriend, who knows?

Do you really expect someone to come along afterwards and offer you 300x?

Negative comments depress prices. That may be nice for buyers, but what about photographers who need to sell an item to pay for their next camera? And if prices on this forum become artificially depressed, how long before predatory speculators descend?

I think it's like a lot of legislation - good intentions but unintended consequences. But I guess I am talking to the wall here. Slam away!!!

Ken Lee
26-Mar-2012, 09:27
What about if we get ripped off as I recently did on a lens purchase? May I respond in a public post after the sale or would that be considered 'rude'?

That is a separate matter. Loosely coupled, but separate. Did any of the moderators intrude in that thread ?

The spirit of this rule is fairly obvious and straightforward. As always, 99.9% of forum members will use good judgement and rarely create any turbulence. For the few with poor social skills, we have rules.

Noah A
26-Mar-2012, 09:27
So when someone wants to sell their $2000 Master Technika and somebody comes along and posts that it is only worth $1500 to them and that one sold on eBay last week for $1475, etc. but the seller still wants $2000 for their camera, and can wait a few weeks until the right buyer comes along, these negative comments would make it much more difficult for them to maintain their price. At least in an auction the buyer sets the price - in your proposed Utopian community the uninvolved (but benevolent and wise!) mob set the prices for you.



But what happens when that so-called Master Technika is really a modified Tech IV? Would pointing out that it's not a Master be considered a "negative" post and therefore be banned? I agree with you that it's annoying when people second-guess your price. But if a post actually adds valuable information that was missing (or wrong) in the ad, then it may be a service to the community.

cdholden
26-Mar-2012, 09:28
For whatever it's worth, I agree with the OP. The community tends to be self-regulating. I find FS comment posts enlightening for the most part (except for the "bump" posts)... either by clarifying equipment identification and features, or by identifying people I can ignore later. Either way, I win.
This new rule changes that.

Kimberly Anderson
26-Mar-2012, 09:28
No one can deny the education we all received when a certain lens that had been cracked all the way through on the front element was sold here recently. For some it was very enlightening, for others it was a blood-bath. For the OP it was great publicity and he ended up selling his lens. I look at that as a win-win-win. All parties got something out of it.

Noah A
26-Mar-2012, 09:29
That is a separate matter. Loosely coupled, but separate. Did any of the moderators intrude in that thread ?

The spirit of this rule is fairly obvious and straightforward. As always, 99.9% of forum members will use good judgement and rarely create any turbulence. For the few with poor social skills, we have rules.

I haven't made any such post yet but it was a sincere question as I may want to make a public post on the sale thread once the paypal claim is resolved.

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 09:38
But what happens when that so-called Master Technika is really a modified Tech IV? Would pointing out that it's not a Master be considered a "negative" post and therefore be banned? I agree with you that it's annoying when people second-guess your price. But if a post actually adds valuable information that was missing (or wrong) in the ad, then it may be a service to the community.

I'm not a moderator but that seems a place for them to make a logical call. There is a difference between stating a fact (That is a jerk trying to sell a Tech IV for a lot of money, like that red one a while ago) and stating an opinion.

Obviously you have to call out the Nigerian Oil Schemes and cell phone sales.

I got hosed on another forum's for sale and called the guy out. He defended himself with lies, which confused the issue but at least his future buyers will be more careful. Perhaps a feedback system is in order?

But, overall, I bet this Buy and Sell Section works better than most others and I don't see how "adding" negatives would be positive.

Will Whitaker
26-Mar-2012, 09:51
While we're at it, could we ban "PM sent"? That's like a dog pissing on a rock.

Ken Lee
26-Mar-2012, 09:52
Almost all of us know - without instruction - when a comment crosses the line.

When that happens, there is now a guideline which can be cited.

Moderators remove only a small fraction of postings, and we can all expect that pattern to continue.

Sevo
26-Mar-2012, 09:56
I'm not a moderator but that seems a place for them to make a logical call. There is a difference between stating a fact (That is a jerk trying to sell a Tech IV for a lot of money, like that red one a while ago) and stating an opinion.


I doubt that the moderators would like to assume any responsibility for the accurate description of the merchandise peddled in the FS section.

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 10:08
I doubt that the moderators would like to assume any responsibility for the accurate description of the merchandise peddled in the FS section.

And we'd be better served by self-proclaimed experts stating their opinions as facts?

cowanw
26-Mar-2012, 10:17
Sorry to have offended you with positive comments. When I do leave them I mean them as genuine and am trying to be helpful. Seems better than "bump" every hour as some people do.

What's on General Hospital today? I have to go to the doctor and then visit the priest later. Then go get my hair dyed blue. Obviously we're a bunch of old ladies here.

Actually your posts are usually helpful with real pertinent information, however positioning the opposing point of view as old and female does not make you young and virile.

David Luttmann
26-Mar-2012, 10:18
I don't agree. When someone is selling a lens for $800 that normally sells online for $300...prospective buyers should be informed of such. That's not rude....it's saving someone from making a mistake.

Michael Graves
26-Mar-2012, 10:38
Seems to me that since this is a private forum, the moderators can make any rule they please. Having a heated argument about the intelligence of one of their decisions could possibly have an effect none of us would like. Does anyone want the FS section removed completely? I do not.

BrianShaw
26-Mar-2012, 11:10
I do not.

I do not either. I've bought some cool stuff from forum members, and hope to sell a few of my cool things in the near future. I might start a "What price should I put on these items" thread and see how that goes. :D

Sevo
26-Mar-2012, 11:16
And we'd be better served by self-proclaimed experts stating their opinions as facts?

Where did I demand a panel of self-proclaimed experts? So far, open discussions among our generally knowledgeable and benevolent lot did fare pretty well at arriving at something at least very close to the facts. The smaller pool of moderators probably won't do much better on average, and would indeed be more likely to trip up on items that need highly specialized knowledge (e.g. of 19th century European gear of local distribution - have we even a single European moderator?).

In any case, and all personal preferences aside, the moderators should proceed very carefully (and perhaps even ask for legal advice in the state the site nominally operates from) regarding moderated marketplaces - these things can be set up safe for the mods, but you can also trip up and make them personally responsible for the trades. The past, unmoderated state at any rate kept them out of all obligations.

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 11:33
Actually your posts are usually helpful with real pertinent information, however positioning the opposing point of view as old and female does not make you young and virile.

Sorry, point taken. My virility is but a hazy memory anyway.

jp
26-Mar-2012, 11:41
I think it would be wiser to PM someone if they are mistaken in their pricing or description than to put a public post telling them how wrong they are about what they have.

rdenney
26-Mar-2012, 11:45
I don't agree. When someone is selling a lens for $800 that normally sells online for $300...prospective buyers should be informed of such. That's not rude....it's saving someone from making a mistake.

The temptation is believing that we each have a responsibility to save prospective buyers from making mistakes, and that is, I think, the source of a lot of the issues that emerge.

In fact, I do not believe that we have such an obligation. And often, the people doing so are as likely to be mistaken as the seller about the value of something. The price of something can vary quite a bit based on all manner of conditions that may or may not make the "comparables" comparable. Price is not some immutable law, but a simple agreement between an uncoerced buyer and seller.

Supposing the price of large-format stuff starts to rise? Is it our job to inhibit that? Do we even want to? (Most of us own more than we are likely to want to buy already.) Somebody in a hurry should expect to pay more than a person who is patiently waiting for the correct price. And the seller may not need to sell something quickly. The market--and this market is quite open--should take care of that. The person who offers a $300 lens for $800 probably will have a lack of response as the statement on the price. It would have to be a willfully ignorant buyer to overspend that much if the price is really out of line. "Wilful ignorance" is the inability to perform a simple search of the for-sale ads here, at KEH, and on eBay, to determine what is a ball-park for similar items.

Sometimes, a willfully ignorant seller provides me a good deal. That happens quite often though I'm not usually the beneficiary. Many quite experienced sellers on this forum have offered stuff that sold within minutes--a sure sign that their price was too low. Occasionally, I've been the willfully ignorant buyer, but maybe I was in a real hurry in those cases. I'm glad in both cases someone didn't feel it was their obligation to impede the deal.

If someone starts a thread on the equipment forum that asks what the going rate ought to be for a given lens, then we can provide an abundance of opinions. And if someone is misrepresenting a product, providing the correct description is a service, as long as it is done so correctly. Often as not, though, even that starts an argument among experts as to what something really is.

Rick "who would never post an item for sale after cocktail hour, heh" Denney

lecarp
26-Mar-2012, 11:52
I believe it is appropriate. I don't think its called the Whats your opinion of what I'm selling category.

photobymike
26-Mar-2012, 12:28
This forum is my most treasured source of online photographic information. Just as freedom of the press is the foundation of democracy, the freedom to post inteliigent, constructive, but occasionally negative comments make the site strong. Not all comments have been nice, but even the quibbling occasionally has value. The few who abuse this will soon be hoist with their own petard.

What we really need is respect and consideration for the others that would be reading or posting. Sorry jim There is not even close to freedom of democracy here. This a private board and we are invited guests. But it would behove the owners of this board to give a wide latitude in the conversation here. That is what makes this board interesting. If we do not limit our conversation to respectful comments on photo issues, I guarantee chaos would ensue.

"Opinions are like assh**les ..everybody has one and everybody believes that everyone has a right to ("their") opinions". < worded very carefully

Where else could a conservative person exchange ideas with anarchist about photography.

John NYC
26-Mar-2012, 13:02
I believe it is appropriate. I don't think its called the Whats your opinion of what I'm selling category.

For goodness sakes even eBay allows people to give negative feedback, although after a sale but you can still judge the seller by it.

Sal Santamaura
26-Mar-2012, 13:21
...Does anyone want the FS section removed completely?...Yes. Didn't think it was a good idea when initially instituted. Would love to see it go. The new rule and this thread are but the latest evidence of how it divides the community.

John NYC
26-Mar-2012, 13:45
Yes. Didn't think it was a good idea when initially instituted. Would love to see it go. The new rule and this thread are but the latest evidence of how it divides the community.

I'd rather have it removed than be a forum that is even less reliable for negative feedback than eBay!

Jay DeFehr
26-Mar-2012, 14:05
The new rule makes a very clear statement: Sellers need protection, buyers do not; it's okay to intervene in a sale on behalf of the seller, but not on behalf of a potential buyer. What could be more clear? Buyers are expected to "be adults" and "do their homework", and sellers are beyond reproach. Simple. If you find this unfairly advantageous to sellers, you're welcome to not participate in either the forum, or the larger community. What more could one want from a community of like-minded enthusiasts? Parity? A voice? Don't be naive!

You might be confused by the title "Moderator", which implies impartiality and, well, moderation. That's misleading. It's far more useful to think of the Moderators as the Core Group -- the innermost clique, endowed with powers not extended to cliques lying further out of center. These non-core cliques have the ears of the Core Group depending on their proximity to the center. This new rule indicates the proximity to the center of the most active and frequent sellers, and/or perhaps it's an indication of the political leaning of the Core Group. Those on the Right tend to identify with sellers, while those on the Left tend to identify with buyers.

We can assume this new rule was made in reaction to complaints by sellers, even though it's fairly obvious that no real problem exists, and complaints by those opposed to the rule have far less weight than the complaints of the sellers. The idea that a sale can be "ruined" by a "negative post" assumes potential buyers are incredibly gullible, and rely solely on posts in the For Sale forum of this community to make their buying decisions. Despite this assumed vulnerability, our Core Group has decided it's the sellers who need special protection. If you can help a seller make a sale, it would be mighty neighborly of you to lend a hand, but if you want to help a buyer make an informed decision, keep your lying trap shut, or risk banishment.

None of this is in the least necessary. We are a small community, with a built-in reputation system. If a seller makes too many bad deals, the community will moderate, provided it's not prevented from doing so, and if a member makes too many unfounded posts in support of, or in opposition to For Sale posts, that member's opinion will become marginalized. This new rule hobbles our perfectly adequate reputation system, so that any post in support of a sale must be seen as a mere advertisement, and any post in opposition is either discouraged from being posted at all by the new policy, or self-censored to toothlessness, or removed by the Core Group.

I've only had a few dealings in the For Sale forum, and every one has been a pleasure, but I will not participate in the forum under this new rule. So, how many potential sales has this new rule "ruined"?

Lachlan 717
26-Mar-2012, 14:21
I cannot tell you just how well I slept last night knowing that you altruistic, do-gooding, mini-Julian-Assanges are out there protecting me from myself.

And here I was thinking that I had a duty to research before buying on a section of the forum that clearly states "Use of this area is strictly at your own risk", and that I need to have accountability for my own actions.

No, really, thanks to all of you.

(Please note the acidic sarcasm here)

Vaughn
26-Mar-2012, 14:36
A tempest in a tea cup!

Did people actually read the post?!

"...posts should refrain from intruding on the thread by making negative comments about the item or the price being requested..."

Must be an election year...

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 14:42
Well I can only hope the braintrust represented here is called up to regulate the financial industry because surely they understand all of the potential pitfalls and have a shrewd understanding of human nature. Certainly nobody would ever sour another person's sale in the guise of "helping" some poor lost soul, nor would they resort to extracting revenge for some perceived slight made elsewhere. No upstanding fine art photographers would ever operate in their self-interest.... In fact, if this goes well, the community could set the prices and, hopefully, they will never be higher than the buyer's ability to pay.

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 14:49
For the few with poor social skills, we have rules.
But Ken...

I'm an engineer (electrical). I have absolutely no social skills.

Perhaps you should add an extra set of rules for engineers and those with similar afflictions. :p

- Leigh

Jay DeFehr
26-Mar-2012, 14:54
Well I can only hope the braintrust represented here is called up to regulate the financial industry because surely they understand all of the potential pitfalls and have a shrewd understanding of human nature. Certainly nobody would ever sour another person's sale in the guise of "helping" some poor lost soul, nor would they resort to extracting revenge for some perceived slight made elsewhere. No upstanding fine art photographers would ever operate in their self-interest.... In fact, if this goes well, the community could set the prices and, hopefully, they will never be higher than the buyer's ability to pay.

And you assume potential buyers are so naive and incapable of independent thought that these ruses would always be taken at face value. Amazon and Ebay seem to be doing okay, despite their willingness to tolerate negative feedback/reviews. You seem satisfied to ignore the fact there is a reputation system in place for dealing with these kinds of issues. What's the downside, exactly, of a "ruined sale"? The seller goes to ebay? Who cares? What is this rule meant to protect if not the profit margin of sellers in the For Sale forum? Why do sellers merit special protection?

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 15:09
Actually Amazon, eBay, and PayPal overwhelmingly favor the buyer's interests in any dispute. And on those sites nobody is able to comment publicly on the same page as the listing, the only negatives come after the transaction is completed.

In our little ideal Utopia here, and what has been my practice, it is possible to sell items for less than eBay or Amazon because the site does not take a commission. I will gladly pass the ~10% savings to a fellow LFPF member rather than giving it to eBay. So in spite of the imperfect nature of these transactions, this Buy and Sell section is a reliable, reasonable way to save a fair amount on your camera gear.

Why screw it up?


And you assume potential buyers are so naive and incapable of independent thought that these ruses would always be taken at face value.

You really missed your calling as a lawyer Jay. Inserting the phrase, "would always" gives you the win. However if we assume that some buyers, especially newbies, may be somewhat naive and some ruses could be fairly sophisticated, then your argument falls apart.

Besides, this forum has been working pretty well and the worst case examples are so few that I still haven't seen anyone refer to an actual occurrence. You're acting like politicians looking to implement solutions to problems that don't exist.

And finally, the dark Reagan-Vadar alliance that clamps their iron-fist upon the free discourse of this site has spoken and we shall submit. Being the villainous Trotskyite traitor to the working class that I am, I'm on the side of might, which always makes right!

Sevo
26-Mar-2012, 15:13
Why screw it up?


Absolutely right! But weren't you the one vehemently advocating the current policy change a few posts up the thread?

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 15:21
Absolutely right! But weren't you the one vehemently advocating the current policy change a few posts up the thread?

I didn't see it as policy change at all, only a clarification of existing policy. They have been removing most of the negative comments on for sale posts for years.

Did we forget what we were arguing about, again!? lol

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 15:25
When I encounter an error or omission in an ad, I first ask myself why is it there?
If the seller knew of the problem it certainly would have already been corrected.

So either
1) the seller is ignorant of the situation, or
2) the seller is a liar.

I prefer to think that #1 is true, so I post an explanation, and expect the seller will appreciate my help.

Whether the effect of the comment is favorable or not to the sale is of no concern.
My only obligation is to pass on accurate information to the best of my ability.

One recent example involved a lens sale.
It was an extremely nice lens, but the seller neglected to mention that it was an APO.
I pointed that out, and the seller was grateful for the additional info.
It subsequently sold, and I like to think that my comment may have hastened that event.

But I would not have hesitated to post if the comment had a net negative impact on the offer.

For those who choose to censor negative comments in sales threads, please answer the following question:
Why should my policy as stated above differ for sales threads vs. threads in any other section of LFPF?
Aren't we all here to exchange information?

- Leigh

Jay DeFehr
26-Mar-2012, 15:32
Why screw it up?

Besides, this forum has been working pretty well and the worst case examples are so few that I still haven't seen anyone refer to an actual occurrence. You're acting like politicians looking to implement solutions to problems that don't exist.

Who are the "you're" you refer to above? In case it isn't clear, I'm not "looking to implement solutions to problems that don't exist", that's exactly what the new rule does, and to which I am opposed.

The "would always" I inserted is meant to reveal the flaw in your argument, as that would be required for your solution to have merit. If there is no problem, or only very rarely one, no new rule is required.

Regarding your argument that "our little ideal utopia" allows for lower prices for buyers, that might be true, or it could allow for higher profit margins for sellers. I've seen both examples here.

The bottom line is that the new rule protects sellers at the expense of buyers, and no one has justified that fact. It is a needless intrusion into a self regulating market, as you seem to both agree with, and argue against.

John NYC
26-Mar-2012, 15:32
Not to change the topic, but I don't know why some people think this forum is some sort of buyers' utopia. I have made purchases where the item was exactly as described here and ones where the seller here totally overrated it's condition... Hey, JUST like eBay.

Lachlan 717
26-Mar-2012, 15:34
My only obligation is to pass on accurate information to the best of my ability.



Sorry; I'm calling bullshit on this.

"..obligation.."?

You are not obligated in any way to pass anything on. You choose to chime in.

In my opinion, this sort of presumptuous behaviour is being tolerated far more here than in the real world. If you were in a local store and you butted in with your "opinion", not only would you be told to pull your head in, you would probably be asked to leave the store.

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 15:50
Sorry; I'm calling bullshit on this.
Well, that's your opinion, and you have a right to state it.

Apparently you feel I have no right to state mine.

Now go wipe the brown stuff off your face.

- Leigh

Lachlan 717
26-Mar-2012, 15:56
Well, that's your opinion, and you have a right to state it.

Apparently you feel I have no right to state mine.

Now go wipe the brown stuff off your face.

- Leigh

Master of the retort, aren't you?

Pity you didn't spend any time explaining your obligation. Which, by the way, fitted my expectations.

Vaughn
26-Mar-2012, 15:59
The new rules say nothing against asking sellers polite questions for clarification pertaining to make, model or condition...questions any buyer can/should ask. All it asks is that we not be rude about it.

Sal Santamaura
26-Mar-2012, 16:01
...I have absolutely no social skills...


...I'm calling bullshit on this...Apparently Leigh's not alone.


...Now go wipe the brown stuff off your face...And apparently no social skills were acquired in the one hour and one minute since Leigh pointed out that he lacks them. :)

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 16:04
Pity you didn't spend any time explaining your obligation.
How about answering the questions I posed in post #64 above, to wit:
"Why should my policy as stated above differ for sales threads vs. threads in any other section of LFPF?
Aren't we all here to exchange information?"

As others have stated, this is a community.

Its members have an obligation to convey information, and to protect each other
from potential problems, particularly those that might cost money.

- Leigh

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 16:08
...no social skills were acquired in the one hour and one minute since Leigh pointed out that he lacks them.
Since I've not acquired any in the last seven decades, I doubt an hour will make any difference. :p

- Leigh

Peter De Smidt
26-Mar-2012, 16:33
While we're at it, could we ban "PM sent"? That's like a dog pissing on a rock.

Will's right. That's really annoying.

I'm pulled both ways on the question at hand. I agree with Darin that this is a community, and if people are taken advantage of then that hurts the community. On the other hand, if you don't know about an item, ask someone, google the item, check KEH, and look at completed Ebay listings. Those are basic net skills. Perhaps someone should write a buying faq that newbies can be pointed to.

Like Frank, I'll occasionally make a positive comment on an item. I do so honestly, and it lets possible buyers know that I know about that item. They can always pm me with a question. I don't see the harm

Tim Meisburger
26-Mar-2012, 16:45
I just have to say, this is the most enjoyable, reasoned debate I've seen in a long time. I went to sleep with it and woke up and its still going. My favorite was the guy who saw the "Moderators" as a secret, cabalistic clique; puppetmasters secretly controlling everything! That was great!

But, according to the moderators, you both won! If you read their posts you will see that no change in the way they moderate is contemplated. They will continue to police the for sale section in exactly the fashion they have in the past, they have merely published their metric, so than in a dispute they can point to the reason they delete or modify a post. The first step in civilization was the codification and publication of law; before that, and in some places today, the public had no idea what the law or rule for the day was.

For those who object to unjustified critical comments, they can be reassured that the moderators will still remove those when they find them, just as they have in the past.

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 16:49
While we're at it, could we ban "PM sent"?
Posting that comment establishes your place in line, and documents the fact that a communication was initiated.

It just prevents the seller from saying "Sorry, prior PM received, so I can't sell to you."

Also, in the case of multiple items in a single post, it tells other interested parties which items are under offer.

- Leigh

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 16:55
Posting that comment establishes your place in line, and documents the fact that a communication was initiated.

It just prevents the seller from saying "Sorry, prior PM received, so I can't sell to you."

Also, in the case of multiple items in a single post, it tells other interested parties which items are under offer.

- Leigh

It also discourages additional inquiries and hampers the sale. Pros and cons both ways but I never appreciated getting them. Half the time it's some lowballer wasting your time.

Peter De Smidt
26-Mar-2012, 16:59
It just prevents the seller from saying "Sorry, prior PM received, so I can't sell to you."


It only does so if everyone makes such a post, which they don't, thank goodness.

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 17:00
It also discourages additional inquiries and hampers the sale. Pros and cons both ways but I never appreciated getting them. Half the time it's some lowballer wasting your time.
If the PM exchange does not result in a sale, you can always post Still Available in the thread and get a free bump. :D

- Leigh

D. Bryant
26-Mar-2012, 17:01
Freedom of speech?

This is a privately owned and funded forum. We have no rights here though some might think we do. I agree with Ken's post though I'm sure all of the mods were involved.

Don't kill the golden goose for selling items here!

I know probably just about all of the sellers are honest and try to place a price on items that will make them the most money and have a reasonable chance of selling. There are sooo many bargains being offered here these days. Where is the beef? Seriously why do we think we should get to set standards or rules or lobby to do so by posting in long winded discussions.

If you don't like the forum rules then just go away - quietly.

Brian Ellis
26-Mar-2012, 17:28
I don't think it's anybody's business what a seller asks for something or whether he or she makes a mistake in the listing or anything else. People can't make public comments on ebay about items being sold, they can't make public comments in Craig's List, they can't make public comments in newspaper classified ads, etc. I see no reason why the classified ads here should be any different. I don't think any comments - positive, negative, or even "PM Sent" - should be allowed. When an item is sold the seller can post "sold" and that's all that's needed. If you have a problem with a price or description or anything else send a private message to the seller, there's no need to tell the world what you think about someone else's ad.

Jay DeFehr
26-Mar-2012, 17:29
I just have to say, this is the most enjoyable, reasoned debate I've seen in a long time. I went to sleep with it and woke up and its still going. My favorite was the guy who saw the "Moderators" as a secret, cabalistic clique; puppetmasters secretly controlling everything! That was great!

But, according to the moderators, you both won! If you read their posts you will see that no change in the way they moderate is contemplated. They will continue to police the for sale section in exactly the fashion they have in the past, they have merely published their metric, so than in a dispute they can point to the reason they delete or modify a post. The first step in civilization was the codification and publication of law; before that, and in some places today, the public had no idea what the law or rule for the day was.

For those who object to unjustified critical comments, they can be reassured that the moderators will still remove those when they find them, just as they have in the past.


Tim,

I assume you're referring to me. To clarify, I never suggested the Moderators are secret, since we all know who they are, or cabalistic, since their doctrine is also well known, and I certainly never suggested they are puppet masters controlling everything, secretly or otherwise. I simply suggested they are more accurately described as a Core Group than as Moderators, which implies a different set of priorities than exhibited. You need only read Sal's contribution to this thread for a very clear example of what I mean.

I agree publication of policy is good practice, and especially so when it's open to comment and review, which is what's happening here. No need to put words into my mouth or otherwise muddy the waters.

Mike Anderson
26-Mar-2012, 17:43
re: "PM sent".


Posting that comment establishes your place in line
No it doesn't. Most sellers consider their email inbox the "line" (or "queue" for you Brits and programmers).

Frank Petronio
26-Mar-2012, 17:54
And besides, a seller can sell to whomever they want to, the order doesn't matter in a casual sale such as these - and the actual timeline is obscured from everyone but the seller anyway. I would definitely sell to a nicer, more pleasant later buyer than some obnoxious earlier buyer.

Mike Anderson
26-Mar-2012, 17:57
I agree with Darin's OP, repeal the new rule. The rule only helps semi-professional sellers and not the community at large. It will be a can of worms.

Blatant rudeness can be controlled without the new rule.

Tim Meisburger
26-Mar-2012, 18:14
Sorry Jay, I didn't mean to offend. I just love a good conspiracy theory, and when you started talking about the Inner Core and outer rings I couldn't resist. I do get your point, but I think of the moderators more as a group of like-minded friends, who created and maintain the forum out of love for the art and science of photography.

I like this place. People are polite and gracious, at least compared to any other forum I have even been on. Probably has to do with average age (only here would I be considered a spring chicken at 53). Only here would someone laugh when I told of standing in a surging crown at a political rally in Rangoon, hand-holding an Ikeda Anba 4x5 over my head trying to get a shot with guesstimate aim and guesstimate focus, and the person next to me asked, in a quite difficult accent, "Is that a Hasselblad?":rolleyes:

rdenney
26-Mar-2012, 18:21
It just prevents the seller from saying "Sorry, prior PM received, so I can't sell to you."

No it does not. The seller still chooses to whom he sells the item.

When I've used it, I just want the seller to know he has a PM. I don't always see when I have PMs waiting, and I figure others may not, either. Seeing the notice has no effect on my behavior. More than once the first buyer fell through and I got the item.

Rick "not bothered by what he chooses to ignore" Denney

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 18:24
(only here would I be considered a spring chicken at 53)
&*^%$ kids!

- Leigh

welly
26-Mar-2012, 19:07
I don't agree. When someone is selling a lens for $800 that normally sells online for $300...prospective buyers should be informed of such. That's not rude....it's saving someone from making a mistake.

I think it's up to the individual to do their research on the price of an item. If that means asking a question here (out of the For Sale forum), that's fine. I don't think people should be poking their conk in.

Leigh
26-Mar-2012, 19:17
I like this place. People are polite and gracious...
Hmmm...

I'm obviously not posting enough. :rolleyes:

- Leigh

Jay DeFehr
26-Mar-2012, 19:37
Sorry Jay, I didn't mean to offend. I just love a good conspiracy theory, and when you started talking about the Inner Core and outer rings I couldn't resist. I do get your point, but I think of the moderators more as a group of like-minded friends, who created and maintain the forum out of love for the art and science of photography.

I like this place. People are polite and gracious, at least compared to any other forum I have even been on. Probably has to do with average age (only here would I be considered a spring chicken at 53). Only here would someone laugh when I told of standing in a surging crown at a political rally in Rangoon, hand-holding an Ikeda Anba 4x5 over my head trying to get a shot with guesstimate aim and guesstimate focus, and the person next to me asked, in a quite difficult accent, "Is that a Hasselblad?":rolleyes:

No offense taken, Tim. You make a valid point that others might see the moderators differently than I do. I like it here, too, and maybe I don't say so often enough.

J. Fada
26-Mar-2012, 23:07
You guys all know that a month from now no one will really care, right?

I quoteth Shakespeare- "Much ado about nothing!"

Sevo
27-Mar-2012, 00:23
Freedom of speech?

This is a privately owned and funded forum. We have no rights here though some might think we do.
[...]
Seriously why do we think we should get to set standards or rules or lobby to do so by posting in long winded discussions.

If you don't like the forum rules then just go away - quietly.

Well, no - that is not the way a community works. A forum/bar/club is as much defined by its regulars as by the host or the designer, and its success will depend on how civilized all of them manage to negotiate the rules. "Go away quietly" doesn't cut it, unless you have ways and means to force your subjects to stay within the boundaries of your kingdom - lacking a border police, any forum will quietly bleed to death if it fails to achieve a balance between the interests of the operators and users.

I remember the early nineties, at the very start of the internet, when many BBS sysops got a rush of "we are the net and you all are newbies" megalomania and started to sport a "accept my rules or go away" attitude - which pretty much killed off the whole BBS thing (and many core structures of the Fido network) on the spot, several years before the Internet could provide a substitute in the form of web forums...

D. Bryant
27-Mar-2012, 07:03
Well, no - .

Well actually yes. There are no free speech rights here.

Sevo
27-Mar-2012, 07:36
Well actually yes. There are no free speech rights here.

It is not a matter of rights - indeed, freedom of speech mostly is not. Many European countries, including the UK, have nothing even remotely resembling a constitutional right to freedom of speech, but it nonetheless is a universally accepted concept - among individuals as well as between a state and its subjects.

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2012, 07:56
I go to "The Lounge" when I want to exercise free speech, not "For Sale". :o

Michael Graves
27-Mar-2012, 08:50
I will gladly pass the ~10% savings to a fellow LFPF member rather than giving it to eBay.

And I have been known to knowingly SPEND more to buy an item from a forum member that I could get it "Buy it Now" on eBay, simply because I was familiar with the seller's reputation. I had a greater faith on what I would receive here. I always try here first when I'm looking to buy something.

Michael Graves
27-Mar-2012, 08:56
Well actually yes. There are no free speech rights here.

Freedom of speech is defined by the Constitution. The Constitution dictates how the government and agents of the government behave toward citizens....it does not impact how we behave toward one another. If I search your computer remotely, I have not violated the Fourth Amendment because I am not employed by the government either tacitly or implicitly. If the owners of this forum wanted to make a rule stating that we could only express opinions if we filled out the appropriate forms and submitted them for approval three weeks in advance, they would be within their legal rights. They wouldn't have very many members (and those they had would likely wear a swastika beneath their underwear), but they would be within their rights. What say we all just go back to making pictures and having fun?

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2012, 09:23
And I have been known to knowingly SPEND more to buy an item from a forum member that I could get it "Buy it Now" on eBay, simply because I was familiar with the seller's reputation. I had a greater faith on what I would receive here. I always try here first when I'm looking to buy something.

Ditto.

Mike Anderson
27-Mar-2012, 10:16
Sometimes people don't know exactly what they are selling and make an honest mistake in misrepresenting it. I think most people, in that event, would rather be corrected before the sale than complete the sale of a misrepresented item.

Hopefully the new rule, if upheld by the court, won't prevent that sort of (public but polite) correction that currently occurs. Forcing those corrections to be via PMs will inhibit the process.

Vaughn
27-Mar-2012, 10:57
...Forcing those corrections to be via PMs will inhibit the process.

Why do you believe this to be true?

I think it will enhance the process. Someone who will not make the correction after being PM'ed politely, will be suspect -- those who made an honest mistake will correct the situation on their own post.

Frank Petronio
27-Mar-2012, 11:12
A lot of times the so-called experts, or people like myself, are wrong. Currently there is a fellow selling a nice Technika and I wrote some stuff that is flat-out wrong, corrected by a real expert (Bob S.) and acknowledged/apologized by myself further down the thread. So unless the moderators inspect and edit every thread, it's a problem. Or just a normal imperfect human exchange, depending how you look at it.

Mike Anderson
27-Mar-2012, 11:32
Why do you believe this to be true?

I think it will enhance the process. Someone who will not make the correction after being PM'ed politely, will be suspect -- those who made an honest mistake will correct the situation on their own post.

If a private notification of inaccuracy is ignored, how will anyone know?


A lot of times the so-called experts, or people like myself, are wrong. Currently there is a fellow selling a nice Technika and I wrote some stuff that is flat-out wrong, corrected by a real expert (Bob S.) and acknowledged/apologized by myself further down the thread. So unless the moderators inspect and edit every thread, it's a problem. Or just a normal imperfect human exchange, depending how you look at it.

Exactly. Plus other people learn from these public exchanges. If these public posts are rude or mischievous they can be easily dealt using current guidelines.

Vaughn
27-Mar-2012, 11:42
If a private notification of inaccuracy is ignored, how will anyone know?

Good point, but I believe it is better to be polite first, then nail them, if needed.

photobymike
27-Mar-2012, 11:49
There is a problem developing on LF that can only be resolved by some quick negative comments. i am watching to see how this plays out. watch Ash's posts

Mike Anderson
27-Mar-2012, 12:03
Good point, but I believe it is better to be polite first, then nail them, if needed.

How would you nail them if you can't reply to the offending post?

Sal Santamaura
27-Mar-2012, 12:15
There is a problem developing on LF that can only be resolved by some quick negative comments. i am watching to see how this plays out. watch Ash's postsDo you mean "Asher's?"


Ted owes me money for the Per Volquartz trip over a month ago. He doesn't answer phone messages or PM's. I'd not risk the money buying from him.

Asher

Scott Walker
27-Mar-2012, 12:15
There is a problem developing on LF that can only be resolved by some quick negative comments. i am watching to see how this plays out. watch Ash's posts

Interesting for sure.

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2012, 12:20
Tacky for sure.

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2012, 12:30
To whom it may concern:

Thank you for sending your comment in a PM. I'll consider what you suggest.

Vaughn
27-Mar-2012, 13:09
How would you nail them if you can't reply to the offending post?

After being polite, and hopefully understanding, the guidelines ask that you refrain, not actually prohibit you, from posting. If the issue was just about pricing or perhaps one's opinion about "rarity", then one would just keep one's mouth shut and let the market do its work. If it was about fraud, then post and contact the moderators.

If it about "educating" the forum members, then make a new post of the topic in the main forum and educate us. If it is too much trouble to post such things in the main forum, then the issue is not important enough to be rude by posting on the seller's post.

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2012, 14:19
Amen

Leigh
27-Mar-2012, 14:20
Good point, but I believe it is better to be polite first, then nail them, if needed.
And exactly how would you "nail them"?

- Leigh

Vaughn
27-Mar-2012, 14:21
And exactly how would you "nail them"?

- Leigh

Please see two posts above yours, thank you.

Jay DeFehr
27-Mar-2012, 14:44
There are several problems here. One is in distinguishing between "the letter of the law", and "the spirit of the law". The relatively innocuous wording of the rule makes it easy to overlook if the "spirit" is not considered; if we don't ask, why is the rule needed, and what does the rule do? Apparently, the rule is needed because sellers are being harmed in some way, though it's not been established who the sellers are, or how they've been harmed. Another problem is in the wording of the rule, which identifies rudeness and politeness as guiding parameters. As such, the rule could be pared down to, "Don't be an ass!", which would cover just about everything, and nothing in specific.

Just because a few, self-important people post in a For Sale thread that they think the price is out of line, the equipment is junk, whatever, doesn't justify the institution of seller protection. If the market stops working because of a few jackass comments, it's not a very stable market. How many members aren't already ignoring MDM, for instance? This rule is evidence of the proximity to center of one or more complaining sellers, and little more. It's an insult to potential buyers, who are told they can look out for themselves, but sellers need special protection, however toothless that protection might be. It's divisive, unfair, thoughtless, and just plain bad policy.

Vaughn
27-Mar-2012, 15:07
I read the situation 180 degrees from you, Jay. But that is what makes the forum interesting!

Jay DeFehr
27-Mar-2012, 15:34
I read the situation 180 degrees from you, Jay. But that is what makes the forum interesting!

In that case, I'm probably 180 degrees off! It seems like they're trying to legislate morality, or at least good manners, and I don't think that works, but what do I know? You can pretty safely ignore everything I write.

rdenney
27-Mar-2012, 15:39
I don't think the new rule is for the benefit of the sellers. I think current practice by the mods is to maintain civility, and that means something different in the for-sale forum, just as it means something different still in the lounge. This just gives the mods more standing to do what they've already been doing.

Rick "thinking the mods are mostly concerned about making the work they do easier" Denney

Vaughn
27-Mar-2012, 16:28
... You can pretty safely ignore everything I write.

Heck no! You always have strongly held and interesting points of views!

Frank Petronio
27-Mar-2012, 16:40
Jay it's all set up to keep the blue collar working class photographers groveling and to exploit their labors to the maximum extent possible. The sellers are all Robber Barons, that's why all the "shipping-from" addresses are from Newport, the Hamptons, Malibu, etc. The whole things been a conspiracy since the get-go, QT is just a front for the Jewish Kabal that runs the world's finances.

Ken Lee
27-Mar-2012, 19:12
Frank - You're getting very close to ruining this "Large Format" scam! I guess we're going to have to pay you even more to remain silent. The only way to do that, is to charge people double what they pay now in membership dues. :cool:

Vaughn
27-Mar-2012, 19:18
Hey! I will be quiet for only half of what you pay Frank now!

Vaughn

Frank Petronio
27-Mar-2012, 19:48
I just come for the virgin sacrifices myself. The last time it was a lot of fun when Dickie Cheney feigned his heart palpitations and threatened to stomp on his Nitroglycerin pills so he could get first dibs.

Leigh
27-Mar-2012, 19:59
I just come for the virgin sacrifices myself.
Man, you'll be waitin' a long time for that.

It's no longer standard equipment on the model. It's a special-order option, with few bookings.

- Leigh

Leigh
27-Mar-2012, 20:30
I think current practice by the mods is to maintain civility...
Civility? In this crowd?

The daily post count would drop to zero, or perhaps negative. :p

- Leigh