Seeking perfect field 4x5 camera.

[Leszek Vogt]

I should have added 'perfect' for me. I've seen many different exotics on this forum. Also I
realize I'd have to compromise some movements due to this choice. Anyway, I don't think
Graflex would work for me.

Basically looking for a backpack camera (I'll likely order it):

- wreaks quality
- weight
- lenses 75-600mm
- ridgid const
- ease of obtaining/installing accessories (6x12, etc)

I like Lotus and Horseman (from the looks), but I'm open to suggestions. Thanks in advance.

Les

[Rolle]

What is your budget? Anyway, 600 mm is an awful lot for a field camera extension. If you could manage with less extension or use extension tubes for the longest lenses you would have more cameras to choose from.

[Leszek Vogt]

At this point I'd say South of $4K. I have no idea which cameras permit the use of extension tubes.

Les

[Ian David]

Given your budget, an Ebony SV45Ti would probably fit the bill as one possible option. The specs say they will take lenses up to 800mm. Have a look at Badger Graphic's website.

Ian

[JBAphoto]

When you find the perfect 5x4" fjord camera please let me know, complete with a flying pig and a low sugar, low fat, gateaux that takes good

John

[Steven Tribe]

600mm is a killer for just about everything. Also lens board size.
I have a Cambo Master 4x5 with two bellows and an intermediate standard to support the bellows. Plenty of "add ons" at reasonable cost.
I would not describe it as being backpacking suitable unless you are lean, young and over 6ft 6in!

[Gem Singer]

Take a look at the Canham DLC45 2. It meets your needs and expectations.

For the 600mm. focal length, you could use a Nikon/Nikkor telephoto lens.

www.canhamcameras.com

[Bill_1856]

Except for weight (and price) the Technika is probably the best compromise you're going to get.

[Renato Tonelli]

Yes, please let us know when you find the perfect camera for you.

Perhaps, only then will I stop searching and spending untold amounts in my own search.

In the meantime I would suggest either a Linhof or an Ebony: they are both a pleasure to work with.

[Frank Petronio]

Get a Graflex for 80% of the time with normal lenses and carrying around... and a Sinar for the other 20% of the time you want to shoot extreme lenses and working out of the car. Or get a Linhof Technika for everything.

Buy used for pennies on the dollar and use some of the savings on film, travel, photography.

[Jim Noel]

The "Perfect" field camera does not exist. What might be perfect for you, would not necessarily be perfect for me.

[John Kasaian]

Baby Deardorff? for close to 600mm maybe use a 2x teleconverter on a 240 or 305 G Claron?

[MIke Sherck]

Basically looking for a backpack camera (I'll likely order it):

- wreaks quality

You want to punish quality, or you want a low quality camera?

From Dictionary.com:

"Wreaks":

1. to inflict or execute (punishment, vengeance, etc.): They wreaked havoc on the enemy.
2. to carry out the promptings of (one's rage, ill humor, will, desire, etc.), as on a victim or object: He wreaked his anger on the office staff.

I'm missing something...

Mike

[E. von Hoegh]

Baby Deardorff? for close to 600mm maybe use a 2x teleconverter on a 240 or 305 G Claron?

John, I think you mean the 4x5 Special, which would be my choice for a 4x5 wood field camera.

[Frank Petronio]

I think he meant "reeks" but if you look at the definition it isn't appropriate either, it is just a common phrase. Not that I care, we all make mistakes. Don't let me near a French menu or wine list.

[E. von Hoegh]

Basically looking for a backpack camera (I'll likely order it):

- wreaks quality

You want to punish quality, or you want a low quality camera?

From Dictionary.com:

"Wreaks":

1. to inflict or execute (punishment, vengeance, etc.): They wreaked havoc on the enemy.
2. to carry out the promptings of (one's rage, ill humor, will, desire, etc.), as on a victim or object: He wreaked his anger on the office staff.

I'm missing something...

Mike

There's a lot of confusion re. "wreaks/reeks", I think it's spellcheck screwing us.

[Bob Salomon]

The Linhof TK45S accepts lenses from the 35mm 4.5 Apo Grandagon to the 400mm 5.6 Apo Tele Xenar. For the shorter lenses you would need the wide angle bellows and the camera can take longer lenses with the use of a Wista Extended Lens Board set.

A TK45S collapsed is about the size of a hard back book. It opens and closes in mere seconds, Has optical axis tilts and swings in front and back as well as front and rear shift and front rise/fall and rear rise. All metal and it, like a Master Techinka Classic, 2000 or 3000 is simply the definition of quality.

It has an international back so it accepts all roll backs, that would include the true 612 Linhof Techno Rollex which is a 56x120mm image area compared to the 56x110 or 112mm area of the other 612 backs. Accepts all Linhof Kardan and Technika viewing aids and, as it is a Linhof, accepts the single most common lens board for the Technika IV, V and Master cameras.

[rdenney]

There's a lot of confusion re. "wreaks/reeks", I think it's spellcheck screwing us.

No, no confusion. "Wreaks" means to cause something to happen. That something is usually bad. "Reeks" means to smell bad, though many use it to mean just "smell".

"I want a camera that smells of quality" is I'm sure what the OP meant.

Rick "now, effecting an improper use of 'affect' effects both a negative effect and a sad affect on any lover of precise language" Denney

[E. von Hoegh]

No, no confusion. "Wreaks" means to cause something to happen. That something is usually bad. "Reeks" means to smell bad, though many use it to mean just "smell".

"I want a camera that smells of quality" is I'm sure what the OP meant.

Rick "now, effecting an improper use of 'affect' effects both a negative effect and a sad affect on any lover of precise language" Denney

Tell this to spellcheck.

[rdenney]

Tell this to spellcheck.

I've done so. Many times. Using colorful descriptions that have garnered pained expressions from passersby. Apple's spelling replacement algorithm for the iPhone is particularly appalling--almost as bad as my accuracy on that tiny touch keyboard with my big, fat thumbs.

Rick "didn't do any good" Denney

[Frank Petronio]

Apparently finding the right word is as hard as finding the right camera.

[rdenney]

Apparently finding the right word is as hard as finding the right camera.


No. Finding the perfect word is as hard as finding the perfect camera.

Rick "exceeding his obnoxiousness quotient for the day" Denney

[John Kasaian]

John, I think you mean the 4x5 Special, which would be my choice for a 4x5 wood field camera.

The Special would have longer bellows to work with (I'm guessing) but at the cost of wieght and bulk. The Baby is a true 4x5, not a 5x7 with a 4x5 back. maybe the new Deardorff factory could build one for the OP? They are kind of rare.

[E. von Hoegh]

I've done so. Many times. Using colorful descriptions that have garnered pained expressions from passersby. Apple's spelling replacement algorithm for the iPhone is particularly appalling--almost as bad as my accuracy on that tiny touch keyboard with my big, fat thumbs.

Rick "didn't do any good" Denney

It's nice to know I am not alone in believing spellcheck and allied programs to be the work of the antichrist, assisted by all available demons.

[Corran]

So all these suggestions for Ebony/Linhof and you've got $4k to spend. Any reason you need to spend that much, other than to possibly feel better about your purchase?

Here's an option: A Chamonix 4x5. I have the 1st version and it takes my 47mm XL all the way to a Nikkor 500mm tele. If I bought the extension it would easily take my 720mm tele. It's extremely light-weight but still rigid, at least for a field camera. Only about 1/4th your budget or less used so you have more money for the important things like lenses, film, and gas/plane tickets!

[anglophone1]

My super Tech , grip, viewfinder, 90, 150 and 240 hoods , filters etc. cost around USD 2500 right here.
Why spend more?
It is quality full stop
( you can wreak havoc but not quality)

[timparkin]

So all these suggestions for Ebony/Linhof and you've got $4k to spend. Any reason you need to spend that much, other than to possibly feel better about your purchase?

Here's an option: A Chamonix 4x5. I have the 1st version and it takes my 47mm XL all the way to a Nikkor 500mm tele. If I bought the extension it would easily take my 720mm tele. It's extremely light-weight but still rigid, at least for a field camera. Only about 1/4th your budget or less used so you have more money for the important things like lenses, film, and gas/plane tickets!

I have to agree with the Chamonix - it's the lightest camera that takes those lenses and with the extension with go to 720mm (if you can find one). It also has enough movements to do what you need it to and you can spend the extra money you have left over on a Maxwell fresnel which will then reek of quality every time you look through it.

The alternative would be an Ebony 45SU for that real 'reeking of expense' smell. It's twice the weight of the Chamonix though but so, so beautiful to use.

I have both of these cameras and if only I could afford an Arca Swiss F-Line I'd have the perfect set of cameras (there is no perfect single camera). Chamonix for lightweight, Ebony for fast focus and wonderful control, Arca for precision and 8x10 convertability.

Tim

[E. von Hoegh]

The Special would have longer bellows to work with (I'm guessing) but at the cost of wieght and bulk. The Baby is a true 4x5, not a 5x7 with a 4x5 back. maybe the new Deardorff factory could build one for the OP? They are kind of rare.

The Baby had a pretty small lensboard. The special has 19" bellows. To use a 24" long focus lens, you'll need 30" of bellows as a minimum, which means a V8 with a 4x5 back.

[Leigh]

What do you mean by "600mm", the optical focal length or the flange focal length (FFL)?
The FFL is the only dimension that matters, and it can be much shorter than the optical focal length.

For example, two 600mm lenses and their FFLs are:
Fujinon T 600/9, FFL = 409.6mm
Nikkor T 600/12, FFL = 383.9mm

The FFL is the distance from the film to the lensboard when the camera is focused at infinity.

- Leigh

[ashlee52]

I've been through most of the folding field cameras, and still have and use the Chamonix, DEARDORFF 4X5 SPECIAL, AND ANSCO 5X7. But frankly a Sinar packs just as easily and will do everything the poster wants. Except they too cost only a fraction of the budget... perhaps $450 for a nice Norma or F1. There is nothing that I know of that can be done with aNY view camera that can not be done with a Sinar.

[Leszek Vogt]

Thanks for responding so quickly. It will be a while before I actually make the final decision. Pardon for wreaking havoc here. That was unintended as I sometimes install a word that might be considered nonsensical. Engl is not my first language...and I would say that emitting or radiating quality would have been a better choice. My bad.

Several models were mentioned and I intend to follow up on all of them. I'm well aware that perfect camera is more of an illusion and a fantasy. Indeed, I'm not exactly gun-ho about spending large amounts of cash on this camera, but usually solid performer doesn't come cheap.

Les

[John Kasaian]

The problem with (close to) perfection is that you'll not recognize it until after you've been with the camera for awhile. We can postulate on what the perfect camera is or should be, but the best anyone can do is to come up with a list (as you have done)
There is, I'm convinced, an invisible quality that isn't on anyone's list and that, for want of better word is sympatico. The quality of a camera that you truly enjoy working with. It should a smile on your face each time you set up. If a camera can do that, you'll use it more than the most "perfect" camera ever built that you might find is a PITA to operate.
My advice is to throw away the list and look at 4x5 cameras and find the one you can visualize yourself shooting and thats the one to get. It may not in fact be "perfect" but it will be a good start.
My 2 cents anyway.

[philosomatographer]

My vote: A second-hand, good-condition Linhof Technika V. I picked mine up (plus a whole kit of lenses, including the Nikkor 360/500/720mm combo) for much less than your budget. It's more than good enough for most things I want to do with a 75mm lens (my widest) and it' quite comfortable with the Nikkor 500mm also. A wooden field camera (e.g. Ebony, pretty as they are) is like a high-school woodwork project in comparison to this small brick of engineering precision. (small as 4x5in cameras go).

It's the Leica of large format cameras, period. And affordable these days. And you'll never get better support / customer service from any company than dealing directly with Linhof in Germany - they are superb, even if you've purchased a second-hand camera which they last saw money from 50 years ago. That counts for something!

[William Whitaker]

In 1935 Irving Berlin used the word "reeks" thusly:


"I'm steppin' out, my dear
To breathe an atmosphere that simply reeks with class
And I trust that you'll excuse my dust when I step on the gas"

You can view the reeking here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZOJoV6H2UM

Perhaps a bit archaic now, but I'll go with Irving on this one. And no disrespect meant to the OP. 'Reek' and 'wreak' are homonyms, an aspect of the English language which can make it particularly confusing, even to native speakers!

[E. von Hoegh]

My vote: A second-hand, good-condition Linhof Technika V. I picked mine up (plus a whole kit of lenses, including the Nikkor 360/500/720mm combo) for much less than your budget. It's more than good enough for most things I want to do with a 75mm lens (my widest) and it' quite comfortable with the Nikkor 500mm also. A wooden field camera (e.g. Ebony, pretty as they are) is like a high-school woodwork project in comparison to this small brick of engineering precision. (small as 4x5in cameras go).

It's the Leica of large format cameras, period. And affordable these days. And you'll never get better support / customer service from any company than dealing directly with Linhof in Germany - they are superb, even if you've purchased a second-hand camera which they last saw money from 50 years ago. That counts for something!

What he ^ said about the Linhof. I've been using my 52 year old ST IV since it was only 26, and I got it from the original owner. John Kasaian makes a very good and valid point, also. My suggestion would be to get the type (wood, metal, monorail, etc.) of camera you see yourself using, don't worry if it's perfect, just use it. While you are using it, keep track of the features you like and dislike. Then, sell that camera and get the one that fits you best. There really isn't any better way of selecting a camera than using it.

[Frank Petronio]

Most of the time the camera hardly matters, as well as it is good quality and you are not doing anything extreme. I've only had a few truly bad cameras, more often I just had something that compromised one feature to gain another good quality in exchange. You can only learn what is most important by trying them, or deciding to live with a decision and keep busy shooting instead of worrying about what to buy next.

I like the Linhof but made plenty of good photos with cheaper, "lessor" cameras. I doubt an Ebony or Lotus would improve my work any.

[Noah A]

For me the closest thing I have found to a perfect camera for my needs is my Linhof Technikardan. But I like my other camera, a Master Technika 2000, better. Go figure.

The Technikardan is relatively small, has full movements with a huge range of lenses and they're not too expensive on the used market. But the technika is smaller and built like a tank, it folds up into a protected shell and can handle almost all of the movements I need.

So if you're doing urban/architectural work and need tons of movements and flexibility, check out the TK. If you're doing more landscape-type work or other things that don't require as much flexibility, check out a used Technika. They both are extremely well-made and great to work with. They actually complement each other well, and you could probably get both a used Tech IV and a used TK45S for under 4k!

[Frank Petronio]

Likewise, I've been looking for an expensive but good Linhof monorail for around home shooting. A Sinar Norma would be just as good. Having one of these means you can maybe get along with something designed for traveling, rather than compromising on an in-betweener.

[sully75]

I like the Linhof but made plenty of good photos with cheaper, "lessor" cameras. I doubt an Ebony or Lotus would improve my work any.

It might make me get out of the house more though. Futzing around with frustrating cameras can be annoying. Sometimes working with awesome stuff is awesome.

Although my Leica is too nice, I need to sell it and buy some good beater stuff. I kinda guess there are not too many beater Ebonies in the world.

[sully75]

I like the Linhof but made plenty of good photos with cheaper, "lessor" cameras. I doubt an Ebony or Lotus would improve my work any.

It might make me get out of the house more though. Futzing around with frustrating cameras can be annoying. Sometimes working with awesome stuff is awesome.

Although my Leica is too nice, I need to sell it and buy some good beater stuff. I kinda guess there are not too many beater Ebonies in the world.

[Jack Dahlgren]

Rick "exceeding his obnoxiousness quotient for the day" Denney

Did you mean quota?

[Drew Wiley]

If you serious gravitate to long lenses, I'd recommend a Sinar field camera, either an F2
or the older Norma series. Components are easy to acquire, and you can quickly reconfigure the camera by adding or removing rail sections for just about any application.
This kind of monorail is also very easy to balance on a tripod, so works with a lighter tripod
than many view camera. The special rail clamp makes a typcial tripod head completely
unnecessay. But there really is no single "best" camera. When seriously reduced weight is
the priority I switch to an Ebony folder. But all these options seem light compared to my
usual 8x10 kit.

[Alan Gales]

Instead of trying to find the "perfect" camera have you considered buying two cameras? A lightweight monorail like a Sinar F2 and a field camera could cover everything that you need.

[Eric Brody]

No one has mentioned my favorite, the Arca Field, smooth, slick, reeks quality, can't be sure about the 600. I've had mine for 6 years and sadly do not use it anymore, blame digital, but it was my dream camera, and after I got it and used it, it remained my dream camera.

[Leszek Vogt]

John Kasain wrote It should a smile on your face each time you set up.


Yes, this is the idea....and without having to barrow a burro. Incidentally, John, what have you done with that mule ? So far I see Ebony SU45Ti as the best contender, since it's just little over 5lbs and it can handle 35-800mm glass. It's highly unlikely that I'll ever reach the very ends of the optics spectrum, but it's capabilities alone + robustness kind of gives me a fuzzy feeling.

I've looked up the 'dorff specs, and much like Linhof, they tend to tip the scale (requiring a diet). Linhof has always been about quality (even as I recall in the 60's)....and I respect that, though I'd need to win that lotto...if you get my drift.

Basically, I'm looking for a camera that would be a joy to operate...and even in my over-the-hill age, I could pick it up and still be able to hike over that hill. So it's all about balance in my view.

Again, thank you for your thoughts and suggestions.

Les

[Alan Gales]

Yeah, John is a smart guy!

[Harley Goldman]

I would echo the Chamonix suggestions. I have had a Wista DXII, an Arca F-Line Classic, Toho, used a Linhof Technikardan 45 and tried a Canham DLC45 and my favorite of the bunch is the Chamonix. I can use a 58mm to a 450mm (the latter with the extension board). It is lightweight and very rigid and I find it quick and easy to use. And I consider it a steal at its price.

As with relationships, there is no such thing as perfect and everyone has a slightly different take on what is perfect. For me, the Chamonix is as close as I have found.

[John Kasaian]

[QUOTE=Leszek Vogt;859546]John Kasain wrote It should a smile on your face each time you set up.


Yes, this is the idea....and without having to barrow a burro. Incidentally, John, what have you done with that mule ? So far I see Ebony SU45Ti as the best contender, since it's just little over 5lbs and it can handle 35-800mm glass. It's highly unlikely that I'll ever reach the very ends of the optics spectrum, but it's capabilities alone + robustness kind of gives me a fuzzy feeling. Les[QUOTE]

Big cameras tend to collect dust quickly if they aren't used. Shooting a good ratio of "keepers" will make most of us want to get out and make more pictures.The more you use your camera the more proficient one tends to become. The more proficient you are, the more "keepers" you'll bring home. The challenges or advantages of one camera over another become mnor issues so long as you enjoy taking the thing out and shooting it to your hearts content. Few things are as discouraging as a camera that makes you unhappy when you use it. :)

[Preston]

Here's another vote for the Chamonix. I have used an Omega View 45E (Toyo) and a Tachihara. The omega is a monorail; large and heavy. The Tachihara is light weight, but limited in movements, and it will take a maximum of a 300mm. Actually, it was Harley and Lon Overacker who won me over with regard to the Chamonix, and I definitely smile when I use it. It's worth every penney, in my opinion.

--P

[Ole Tjugen]

I have two candidates, unfortunately neither is currently made and one is very hard to find:

Carbon Infinity, and Gandolfi Variant.

Both can take lenses from 47mm to 500mm, with movements. With telephoto lenses the extension isn't a limitation, I'm talking of a 500mm normal lens.

Maybe they can take shorter lenses than 47mm too - but that's the shortest lens I own.

[Two23]

Indeed, I'm not exactly gun-ho about spending large amounts of cash on this camera, but usually solid performer doesn't come cheap.

Les


I am very much an outdoor guy, live in South Dakota, take vacations to places like Arctic Canada, Hawaii, and Iceland. I love the Chamonix 045n. Only backpack with lenses out to 300mm though. With the Chamonix extension you could go to 500mm FL. The camera is very nicely finished; I sometimes feel guilty about using it in some of the conditions out here in the Dakotas.


Kent in SD

[Robert Opheim]

In my opinion the selection of a camera should be based on how your going to use it - what your needs are. What are you going to shoot - what lenses, what movements are needed; and how important weight is to you and camera stability. For my needs - I shoot architecture, urban, suburban, landscape, and abstracts. I needed a camera with a bag bellows and movements for wide angle lenses. Also I needed portability - stabilitiy was critical. I shoot with a range of lenses from 58mm to 300mm. I have traded up from a heavy graflex view 2, to a Omega view, to a technikardan. The decision in my case for the technikardan was based on the need for a interchangable bag bellows / standard bellows and reasonable portability. It is not the lightest camera out there. I do not do world treeking - weight is not the most critical issue. My packsack is around 40 - 45 pounds. My technikardan is from the 1980's. There are many fine cameras out there - they all are a little different and have different advantages. Best wishes in your selection of a camera. One thing to note - a basic camera will take just a good of an image as a super camera - some of my best images were taken with my old 1950's graflex view 2.

[Steve Hamley]

Some of the best 4x5s are 5x7s. Try a Chamonix, Canham, Shen Hao knock off of the Ebony or Deardorff with a 4x5 back.

Over budget, but my 5x7 Ebony SV57U will use lenses from 55mm on a 10mm recessed board to the Fuji 600C with an inch to spare, 4" if you articulate the standards. Likewise the Shen Hao copy, but not sure about 55mm - I think so.

Cheers, Steve

[turtle]

I will start looking for the perfect camera when I find the perfect woman :)

Ebony sounds like the best bet (by far), but it is expensive, which brings me back to....

[Bob Salomon]

I will start looking for the perfect camera when I find the perfect woman :)

Might be easier and less expensive to start with the camera.

[Tin Can]

Yup, perfect!



I just posted my Carbon Infinity 4X5 for sale on the site:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101107-Extremely-Rare-Carbon-Infinity-4X5-for-sale-2-850-plus-40-shipping

[Pete Chipman]

Sold.

[ramon]

I would echo the Chamonix suggestions. I have had a Wista DXII, an Arca F-Line Classic, Toho, used a Linhof Technikardan 45 and tried a Canham DLC45 and my favorite of the bunch is the Chamonix. I can use a 58mm to a 450mm (the latter with the extension board). It is lightweight and very rigid and I find it quick and easy to use. And I consider it a steal at its price.

As with relationships, there is no such thing as perfect and everyone has a slightly different take on what is perfect. For me, the Chamonix is as close as I have found.

Thanks Harley !! It is for comments like this one that I found this forum a gold of mine ... unvaluable good information. Not so many of us can test such a great variety of cameras (some of then really expensive).

Linhof TK 45 and Arca F are out of my budget (even used). So I am more interested about Toho, Canham and Chamonix. Harley, please could you explain in detail what do you liked / disliked from this cameras?

Also, what is your opinion about Chamonix (in the long term, 15 or 30 years) compared to metal cameras?

Thanks

[Bob McCarthy]

I agree with the point of view that perfect is a personal decision.

Let me illustrate, I've owned the following cameras in LF...

Zone VI
Technikardan,
Technika 2000
Chamonix
Original version Sinar F
Sinar P
Calumet

and

I've used friends cameras which run the gauntlet of virtually all available cameras.

I currently use the old Sinar F, it just suits me, the way I set up, the way I shoot, and I don't worry about it, very rugged, simple in nature. A little bulky to pack, but I found a way. I always thought if it falls over it will not break and scuffs don't matter. the irony is I've never dropped nor damaged it. I won't sell it, it's not worth much. And I've owned others that I subsequently sold in favor of the old F. For the money the Chamonix is an amazing camera, not even concidering the money its remarkable. But I like working with the monorail better...

With great lenses, it takes great pictures, of course that is if I do my job well.

I vote for the Sinar F (for me)

[Gem Singer]

Since this thread was started one year ago, the OP has probably found the perfect camera for his needs, or given up the search.