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georgl
7-Mar-2012, 01:16
We recently ran into this topic again within another thread.
I have acquired a Sinar adhesive 8x10 holder some time ago and it's definitely a Fidelity holder with machined guides (and propably selected for tighter tolerances). So what about redesigning conventional holders (I've heard the adhesive tape can be bought from 3M) - or is somebody interested in making wooden holders compensating even for the height difference (caused by the thickness of the tape)?

I wonder why not all holders use adhesive tapes? Film is held perfectly, no guides needed, easier loading, even the flap isn't absolutely necessary anymore and the tape helds dust as well. Seems to the superior design, IMHO?

What am I missing?

Jay DeFehr
7-Mar-2012, 08:02
My designs for ULF holders are adhesive designs with no flaps or guides. These are much easier to design/build/load, and hold film much flatter. There's a recipe for the adhesive in the back of Developing, Jacobson and Jacobson. If I remember correctly, it's called "Sticky Easel", and based on corn syrup, so it's water soluble and easy to wash off, as needed.

Scott Walker
7-Mar-2012, 08:58
I like the idea of adhesive holders, has anyone used these in adverse conditions in the field. I have run into numerous problems with extreme temperature changes, mostly frosty film or lenses but I have had some incidences where the only explanation could be bowed film. How does the tape or glue stand up to -25 or -30.

Brian C. Miller
7-Mar-2012, 09:04
I have acquired a Sinar adhesive 8x10 holder some time ago and it's definitely a Fidelity holder with machined guides

Could you please post pictures of this? I went looking for images of a Sinar holder, and I couldn't find anything. I'd like to see what Sinar did to to the holder.

Thanks!

Chris Strobel
7-Mar-2012, 09:16
Yes pictures would be cool.I've got a couple 'junker' Lisco/Regal holders I've often thought about messing around with adhesive wise.

vinny
7-Mar-2012, 09:29
Do a search here for removable atg tape. I have a friend who's been using it with 8x10 holders w/o removing the guides. The problem is residue on he film if you leave it in the holders very long.

Drew Wiley
7-Mar-2012, 14:10
I just posted the answer to this on the camera thread. What you want is repositionable 3M
ATG tape. I've used this system in just about every kind of weather you can think of for
two decades now with no issues. But it does permanently modify your holder. I've never
had residue left behind on the film, but it suppose it might hypothetically happen if tape
was improperly stored and old when you bought it, or if some of the permanent side of the
tape has residue left behind. You need to apply this carefully, so that only the Post-It
side remains toward the film, and the permanent adhesive toward the septum.

Drew Wiley
7-Mar-2012, 14:16
Scott - I can't speak about -30F because we don't get that cold in the mtns here. But I do
know that long exposures in a conventional holder can risk a serious pop. Happened to me
twice recently shooting on a cold damp day. I reserve my adhesive holders for color film
since I'm much more likely to make really big print in color. With black and white I don't
print bigger than 20X24, which is a modest enlargement from 8X10. But I've certainly used
my adhesive system down around zero with no issues.

timparkin
7-Mar-2012, 14:45
We used the 3M repositionable tape on our 'Big Camera Comparison' and although it worked very well (or else we didn't have problems with 'pop' or sag) it did have side effects. The sticky tape left a lot of goop on the back of the film even though it was fresh on the day before and the film was removed the day after. The goop wasn't easy to remove completely - we had the film developed before removing it, I don't fancy trying to remove it in the dark - and the worst issue was the transfer from the back of one sheet to the front of the other which then caused development problems (i.e. transferred goo blocked developing and left smudges over the film).

I had high hopes for this having heard good things but in the end I had to remove the tape from all of my dark slides. The 3M tape was bought from a reputable supplier so should have been OK..

Any suggestions or other people's experience would be interesting. I won't be reapeating this apart from in extreme cases (i.e. using 8x10 pointing straight down).

Tim

Scott Walker
7-Mar-2012, 14:59
Scott - I can't speak about -30F because we don't get that cold in the mtns here. But I do
know that long exposures in a conventional holder can risk a serious pop. Happened to me
twice recently shooting on a cold damp day. I reserve my adhesive holders for color film
since I'm much more likely to make really big print in color. With black and white I don't
print bigger than 20X24, which is a modest enlargement from 8X10. But I've certainly used
my adhesive system down around zero with no issues.

Thanks Drew, I think I will give it a shot with at least a couple of my holders. I tend to call it quits at about -20 but given the right day with no wind, next to no humidity and a bit of sunshine -25 to -30 is workable.
I seldom print bigger than 16x20 and virtually never bigger than 20x24 but that does not mean that I never will so it would be nice to ensure that I can.

Drew Wiley
7-Mar-2012, 17:09
Tim - one does need to carefully remove any unwanted peripheral adhesive residue using
film cleaner or something comparable before actually putting film into the thing. And like I
said, applying the film with a gun, unless you carefully trim the ends with scissors, would
be just looking for trouble. Even the scissors need to be cleaned with solvent between each cut. The Sinar idea was a little better because they ordered up a bunch pre-cut just
a bit smaller than the full holder dimension. I'd imagine 3M would want to cut a huge amt
for a custom service like that. I do have an industrial 3M acct myself to the tune of over
100K per yr, but they're absolute hell to deal with - so many different divisions that the
right hand doesn't even know if the left hand even exists.

Brian C. Miller
7-Mar-2012, 23:01
We used the 3M repositionable ... it did have side effects.

Try Elmer's Repositionable Picture and Poster stick. The glue comes off with water, so if the film is prewashed then there would never be any development issues. It does leave a little residue if you use a lot, so it might stick front-to-back, and could possibly cause a development problem. However, it's very easy to wipe off, so a swipe with a PecPad would be good.

georgl
8-Mar-2012, 08:06
We have to find out the type of adhesive paper, I'm pretty sure it's from 3M/Scotch. I cannot take a picture because it's currently loaded, sorry. But it's a regular Fidelity (besides the branding) and the adhesive "paper" is about 1cm smaller than the back, with the exception of one side (there it's about 2cm - to make loading easier, pressing the film into the corners and then letting it fall/roll flat on the adhesive). The guides are just cut away.

Drew Wiley
8-Mar-2012, 09:29
The adhesive sheet was simply custom cut by 3M for Sinar. At one time you could buy the
sheets as "replacements" from Sinar. The repair folks obviously knew what you were up to,
but didn't seem to mind. Sinar probably holds a patent on the exact configuration, so that
would prevent anyone from outright marketing the same thing. It's a shame that they charged so much for a simple modification of a common holder; otherwise they could have
sold a lot of these adhesive holders. Even a fifty dollar upcharge would have been reasonable and they still would have made a solid profit. The adhesive itself costs next to
nothing; but you'd probably have to order crates of it to get 3M to custom cut it. The
bulk material is in their Post-It division. Good luck communicating with them - it takes some
patience. So about the easiest solution at the moment is 928 ATG tape.

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 09:52
Just ordered 2 rolls of the 928 ATG 3/4" tape and am excited to give it a shot on my 8x10 holders.

3M sates that the tape is 2.0mm thick......is this really thin enough to not mess with focus? Or should I plan on compensating? My guess would be that if I'm at at least f22 it shouldn't be apparent but wanted to see if anyone with experience with self modified adhesive holders has noticed any issues.

Thanks,
Adam

E. von Hoegh
8-Mar-2012, 09:54
Just ordered 2 rolls of the 928 ATG 3/4" tape and am excited to give it a shot on my 8x10 holders.

3M sates that the tape is 2.0mm thick......is this really thin enough to not mess with focus? Or should I plan on compensating? My guess would be that if I'm at at least f22 it shouldn't be apparent but wanted to see if anyone with experience with self modified adhesive holders has noticed any issues.

Thanks,
Adam

Two millimeters is far too thick.

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 10:04
That's kind of what I thought...here is what 3M says:

Scotch® ATG Repositionable Double Coated Tissue Tape 928 Translucent White, 0.75 in x 18 yd 2.0 mil:
2.0 mil, 400/1000 high tack/low tack acrylic, reverse wound, pressure sensitive adhesive double coated tape with a white tissue carrier on a polycoated kraft paper liner. For use with Scotch® ATG Adhesive Applicators.


This is the correct stuff...right?

E. von Hoegh
8-Mar-2012, 10:09
That's kind of what I thought...here is what 3M says:

Scotch® ATG Repositionable Double Coated Tissue Tape 928 Translucent White, 0.75 in x 18 yd 2.0 mil:
2.0 mil, 400/1000 high tack/low tack acrylic, reverse wound, pressure sensitive adhesive double coated tape with a white tissue carrier on a polycoated kraft paper liner. For use with Scotch® ATG Adhesive Applicators.

2.0 mils and 2mm are quite different. Two mils is two thousandths of an inch. Two millimeters is eighty thousandths of an inch.


This is the correct stuff...right?

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 10:17
Oops, of course......sorry for the confusion and thanks for the clarification!

E. von Hoegh
8-Mar-2012, 10:22
Oops, of course......sorry for the confusion and thanks for the clarification!

You're welcome. Perhaps someday the USA will update to the 19th century as regards weights and measures.(shaking head smiley)

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 10:25
You're welcome. Perhaps someday the USA will update to the 19th century as regards weights and measures.(shaking head smiley)

No kidding, I'm sick of base 12 measures and fractions.....base 10 and decimals make so much more sense to me

vinny
8-Mar-2012, 12:01
Just ordered 2 rolls of the 928 ATG 3/4" tape and am excited to give it a shot on my 8x10 holders.

3M sates that the tape is 2.0mm thick......is this really thin enough to not mess with focus? Or should I plan on compensating? My guess would be that if I'm at at least f22 it shouldn't be apparent but wanted to see if anyone with experience with self modified adhesive holders has noticed any issues.

Thanks,
Adam

No. Read drew's posts. No one would use it if it made focus worse than no adhesive at all.

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 12:22
Yeah thanks Vinny, I was mainly concerned that I may have gotten the wrong stuff. But it sounds like it is correct.

Drew Wiley
8-Mar-2012, 16:32
Lenses with sufficient coverage for 8X10 are usually long enough and used at small enough
apertures so that the 2-mil thickness of the adhesive foil has a negligible effect on focus.
It is certainly far less than the typical uneveness of film in a conventional holder. When one gets down to 4X5 or smaller, it might become an issue. That is why Sinar only offered
adhesive holders in 5X7 and 8X10. But you could hypothetically compensate a tiny bit.
I have never found this necessary.

adam satushek
15-Mar-2012, 19:39
Is there anyone who has done this modification to 8x10 holders with ATG 928 (Drew?) who is willing to post pictures of their unloaded holders with the dark slide removed? I'd really like to see what you have had success with so i can mimic it.

Thanks,
Adam

Scott Walker
16-Mar-2012, 05:27
Lenses with sufficient coverage for 8X10 are usually long enough and used at small enough
apertures so that the 2-mil thickness of the adhesive foil has a negligible effect on focus.
It is certainly far less than the typical uneveness of film in a conventional holder. When one gets down to 4X5 or smaller, it might become an issue. That is why Sinar only offered
adhesive holders in 5X7 and 8X10. But you could hypothetically compensate a tiny bit.
I have never found this necessary.


There would be no reason to try and compensate for the thickness of the tape, 2 Mill is only .002" (.0508mm) thick.

Mil is similar to a gauge system of measurement wherein each gauge or mil number corresponds to a certain measurement. In the case of the mil system of measurements the mil number corresponds directly to thousandths of an inch. For example 2 mil is 2 thousandths of an inch thick (.002") and 35 mil is 35 thousandths of an inch thick (.035")

Chris Strobel
16-Mar-2012, 08:20
Is there anyone who has done this modification to 8x10 holders with ATG 928 (Drew?) who is willing to post pictures of their unloaded holders with the dark slide removed? I'd really like to see what you have had success with so i can mimic it.

Thanks,
Adam

Yes just a quick digisnap of your holder would be cool and really really appreciated guys.

Thanks in advance!

-Chris

Drew Wiley
16-Mar-2012, 08:38
Sorry, but I don't own a digital camera. Once in awhile my wife borrows one. Maybe there's an online version with picture of the Sinar catalog. The part for the 8X10 adhesive holder is 566.38.000, but you'd need to view it with the darkslide withdrawn.

Nathan Potter
16-Mar-2012, 09:06
Lenses with sufficient coverage for 8X10 are usually long enough and used at small enough
apertures so that the 2-mil thickness of the adhesive foil has a negligible effect on focus.
It is certainly far less than the typical uneveness of film in a conventional holder. When one gets down to 4X5 or smaller, it might become an issue. That is why Sinar only offered
adhesive holders in 5X7 and 8X10. But you could hypothetically compensate a tiny bit.
I have never found this necessary.

Indeed. If you pick a COC of 20 um for an 8X10 at a typical f/45 then the Depth of Focus is 1.8 mm (around 75 mils) so don't worry about 2 mils. And even under those conditions if you can get resolution of 20 um over a good part of the film you are doing outstandingly well. Suitable for a pretty crisp 4 or 5 X enlargement. I could manage that and better with an inside precision setup but mostly failed quite miserably in the field under stress and weather.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

adam satushek
16-Mar-2012, 09:55
That's alright Drew, I guess my main question is how many strips of the ATG tape do you use? Do you do like 3 evenly spaced lengthwise? Or do you do many more? Sinar used a solid mat of the adhesive that seems like it would be ideal, so maybe lots of strips of 3/4 ATG laid parallel and pretty much touching to fill the holder would be ideal if I am doing the modification?

I hope you don't mind, but I have pasted below your very helpful instructions on modifying holders that you posted in another thread. This seems like a good reference that should be included in this thread as well.

"You start with a conventional plastic Lisco or Fidelity holder and carefully cut away flush
the fins of each side holding the film in (obviously not the part that holds the darkslide).
A straightedge, steady hand, and sharp utility knife are all that is needed. The film should
press directly in rather than slide in. Then you need the repositionable version of 3M ATG
tape which is permanent adhesive on one side (facing the septum) and reusable Post-It
adhesive on the side facing toward the film. You apply parallel strips lengthwise. I wouldn't
use an ATG gun. There should be no bubble, ripples, or bit of leftover adhesive. It's fairly
straightforward and the tape should work for maybe a thousand film changes if not stored
in a hot area. Be careful not to get dust on the adhesive during film changes. Might be a
good idea to practice first on a funky old holder. I believe the correct tape is 3M no.928,
but you might want to double check that." (Drew Wiley)

Drew Wiley
16-Mar-2012, 10:06
The more strips the better, lengthwise. Just be careful not to overlap them and to allow a
bit of space in between so you can remove any residual little balls of adhesive. And that's
the flaw of the ATG tape - when the master roll is sliced down, the edges of the tape will
obviously not be perfect. The Sinar idea with a nearly full sheet was superior. Wish they'd
reinstate it but at a realistic price.

adam satushek
16-Mar-2012, 11:31
Thanks Drew! Yeah it sounds like if we could get the ATG aprox 8 inch wide rolls, or pre-cut sheets it would be ideal.....but I'm sure this kind of special order from 3M would be unrealistic. 3/4 inch will have to do for now.

Daniel Stone
16-Mar-2012, 20:59
Drew's mentioned how dealing with 3M directly can be a nightmare

they're an international corporation who's ring finger doesn't know a middle or pinky finger exist(on the same hand nonetheless) :D

Dan

georgl
17-Mar-2012, 00:07
A German dealer tries to sell one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/SINAR-ADHESIVE-FILMKASSETTE-8x10-/140720951412?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Planfilmkassetten&hash=item20c39f5074

As you see, there is very little to see ;-) The black, slightly shiny (and covered with dust particles) adhesive film can be seen in the center, it's even a little bit smaller than in my memory. All we need now is to find the exact type used, has any of the US-guys contact to 3M?

duff photographer
27-Aug-2018, 15:17
Yes, I know this post is several years after the fact but as this is a useful thread, I've attached a couple of pics of the Sinar adhesive 8x10 holder for reference.

With darkslide...
181980

Without darkslide...
181981

Cheers,
Duff

Bob Salomon
27-Aug-2018, 16:34
Yes, I know this this post is several years after the fact but as this is a useful thread, I've attached a couple of pics of the Sinar adhesive 8x10 holder for reference.

With darkslide...
181980

Without darkslide...
181981

Cheers,
Duff

Sheet film sags, camera manufacturers set their ground glass positioning knowing this.
An adhesive holder helps or eliminates sag, as does a vacuum holder.

Is your ground glass positioned for holders that prevent the sag?

Drew Wiley
30-Aug-2018, 12:38
Whhhhat? Didn't get that one, Bob. You'd need a warped, or rather warpable, ground glass to make sense of that statement. Camera backs need to be set with typical sheet film THICKNESS in mind, but warpage????????????? Certainly not Sinar or any other make of camera I've tested for film position. How can one ever standardize on something that is not itself a consistent factor? Guess new sheet film holders will have to be designed if anyone here signs up for a trip to Mars, where there's less gravity.

Bob Salomon
30-Aug-2018, 14:03
Whhhhat? Didn't get that one, Bob. You'd need a warped, or rather warpable, ground glass to make sense of that statement. Camera backs need to be set with typical sheet film THICKNESS in mind, but warpage????????????? Certainly not Sinar or any other make of camera I've tested for film position. How can one ever standardize on something that is not itself a consistent factor? Guess new sheet film holders will have to be designed if anyone here signs up for a trip to Mars, where there's less gravity.

Drew,

Several years ago Kodak engineers cameto my office to measure the gg placement on current, at that time, Linhof cameras.
On that trip they also went to Toyo at MAC and Sinar.

Somewhat after that trip they called to tell me that they were coming out with something called Readyload film and needed to know the gg placement for cameras commonly available, they made other trips to visit other manufacturers and distributors. They found that one camera had, what they called, a 0 gg placement no, it wasn’t Linhof, and that since film sags they needed to determine the average gg placement on current cameras.

When you use an adhesive or vacuum back the film can not sag and your gg may need to be re-positioned.

And yes, they did tell me which camera had a 0 gg but that info I will not pass on.

Drew Wiley
30-Aug-2018, 15:09
Well, given my own results from adhesive holders (both mine and Sinar's are simply modified Lisco holders with only about 2 mil of added adhesive thickness), and how precisely the visual focus remains in the actual exp, in contrast to sag in ordinary holders by the same manufacturer, I'd categorically state without reservation that none of these modern holders account for sag. That would just be counterproductive. They are mfg to machinist spec of the hypothetical correct film plane only, plus a tad of tolerance for easy film insertion. The Kodak Readyload holders are an exception, as well as the related Fuji Quickload holders. They not only had to accommodate a thick sleeve, but the resistance of insertion against a pressure plate. Therefore these dedicated devices had a distinct offset or backwards bend at the insertion side. It affected focus on that edge. Too tight a platen and the film tends to buckle a bit, not sag like in a regular holder. So at first I made sure I well stopped down every shot. Then I tried to modify the damn things, both Kodak and Fuji. Finally I went back to my trusted highly-modifed 545 holder - heavier but with a flatter film plane (selected out of a number of 545 holders even prior to modification- they weren't all created equal in this respect). In other words, I wasn't very impressed with Kodak's holder, even though it improved a bit
over time. Therefore your interaction with Kodak was in relation to a can-one-size-fit-all question. My way of deciding it is a bar of Starrett precision ground flat stock with a depth micrometer hole in the middle. No guessing, no averaging, no allowance for sag. Admittedly, more of an issue on 8x10 than 4x5. The bigger the film, the more it can potentially sag. I use either all-metal or personally machined phenolic vac holders in the lab for precision dupes and internegs, enlarged masks or separations etc. In the field I use either Sinar or Sinar-clone adhesive holders. I would take a small fortune to get 3M to custom cut another batch of full-sized sheets of the correct Post-It adhesive, but the ATG roll version should be adequate for those wishing to start from scratch.

Bob Salomon
30-Aug-2018, 15:14
Well, given my own results from adhesive holders (both mine and Sinar's are simply modified Lisco holders with only about 2 mil of added adhesive thickness), and how precisely the visual focus remains in the actual exp, in contrast to sag in ordinary holders by the same manufacturer, I'd categorically state without reservation that none of these modern holders account for sag. That would just be counterproductive. They are mfg to machinist spec of the hypothetical correct film plane only, plus a tad of tolerance for easy film insertion. The Kodak Readyload holders are an exception, as well as the related Fuji Quickload holders. They not only had to accommodate a thick sleeve, but the resistance of insertion against a pressure plate. Therefore these dedicated devices had a distinct offset or backwards bend at the insertion side. It affected focus on that edge. Too tight a platen and the film tends to buckle a bit, not sag like in a regular holder. So at first I made sure I well stopped down every shot. Then I tried to modify the damn things, both Kodak and Fuji. Finally I went back to my trusted highly-modifed 545 holder - heavier but with a flatter film plane (selected out of a number of 545 holders even prior to modification- they weren't all created equal in this respect). In other words, I wasn't very impressed with Kodak's holder, even though it improved a bit
over time. Therefore your interaction with Kodak was in relation to a can-one-size-fit-all question. My way of deciding it is a bar of Starrett precision ground flat stock with a depth micrometer hole in the middle. No guessing, no averaging, no allowance for sag. Admittedly, more of an issue on 8x10 than 4x5. The bigger the film, the more it can potentially sag. I use either all-metal or personally machined phenolic vac holders in the lab for precision dupes and internegs, enlarged masks or separations etc. In the field I use either Sinar or Sinar-clone adhesive holders. I would take a small fortune to get 3M to custom cut another batch of full-sized sheets of the correct Post-It adhesive, but the ATG roll version should be adequate for those wishing to start from scratch.

As long as you are satisfied is all that matters!

Drew Wiley
30-Aug-2018, 15:40
You know the saying, Bob... If you want something done right, ya gotta do it yourself! Nearly all my lab gear is either personally made or somehow modified. Lenses would be the exception. Gosh I had to pull teeth and twist arms with a lot of companies to not only get direct access to engineers, but more importantly, the right engineers, not too long ago when I was still a distributor, at least in terms of the person in charge as a buyer. The last ten years I was doing mostly contractor tools. Festool engineers were a dream to work with, Makita depended on the division - they had both aerospace-level engineers and sheer idiots, depending on whether the intended market was industrial or home-center. Bosch was undergoing an internal war between its traditional professional division and the bright-eyed, bushy-tailed geeks and bean counters who wanted to junkify everything. So-called US companies had already become blatant outsourcers and didn't give a damn about anything except the CEO's next golden parachute. Glad it has ended and I can now concentrate on my own toys.

Tim V
5-Nov-2018, 03:26
I'm reviving this thread because I'm going to give this a go. I've paid for an 8x10" holder to "sacrifice" and have placed an order for the 928 tape. Fingers crossed it's actually available here in New Zealand...

The picture here of the actual Sinar holder seems to have a square shaped sheet of adhesive, with quite a bit of non-adhesive area at each end. To those who have done this modification themselves on an older holder, how much surface area do you cover?

Also, has anyone tried cutting away just one of the film guides? I'm guessing leaving one guide in place might be a good way to help line up the film in the dark against one edge, aiding in dropping the film flat? Having not handled the adhesive tape yet and not nowing exactly how sticky it is, I'm a little skeptical of it's ability to keep a large sheet of film in place. I strongly suspect however that this concern is unfounded else others wouldn't bother doing this modification in the first place.

Lastly, after laying the film in place, do you apply any pressure to make sure it's stuck? Do you wear powder free nitrate surgical gloves or anything? Any tips for this crucial part of the process on how to make sure it's not only flat, but the emultion remains pristine?

I'm wanting to use this adhesive back to keep a sheet absolutely flat for ultra long exposures (12 hours plus) as have experienced MAJOR popping in tests, leading to very weird (if sometimes kind of cool) ghosting effects.

Tin Can
5-Nov-2018, 06:27
Makes sense to me Bob.

I have checked GG placement on many cameras and holders.

Please consider revealing the Zero GG manufacturer, the resulting furor may be interesting.

Yet not the last word in ' best' or finest engineering as you imply from your Kodak Quick Load comments.

GG specs are in a range for very good reasons. Stack up differences are what matter.



Drew,

Several years ago Kodak engineers cameto my office to measure the gg placement on current, at that time, Linhof cameras.
On that trip they also went to Toyo at MAC and Sinar.

Somewhat after that trip they called to tell me that they were coming out with something called Readyload film and needed to know the gg placement for cameras commonly available, they made other trips to visit other manufacturers and distributors. They found that one camera had, what they called, a 0 gg placement no, it wasn’t Linhof, and that since film sags they needed to determine the average gg placement on current cameras.

When you use an adhesive or vacuum back the film can not sag and your gg may need to be re-positioned.

And yes, they did tell me which camera had a 0 gg but that info I will not pass on.

Bob Salomon
5-Nov-2018, 07:31
Makes sense to me Bob.

I have checked GG placement on many cameras and holders.

Please consider revealing the Zero GG manufacturer, the resulting furor may be interesting.

Yet not the last word in ' best' or finest engineering as you imply from your Kodak Quick Load comments.

GG specs are in a range for very good reasons. Stack up differences are what matter.

A Japanese camera.

Tin Can
5-Nov-2018, 07:44
A Japanese camera.

That was my guess.

Thank you

Drew Wiley
5-Nov-2018, 15:18
Tim, I doubt you can do it by cutting away just one inner fin. The film has to be set straight down. A small amount of perimeter space between the adhesive strips and film edge is OK, like Sinar did it.

Tim V
5-Nov-2018, 17:43
Thanks, Drew.

Pere Casals
7-Nov-2018, 07:44
Well, given my own results from adhesive holders (both mine and Sinar's are simply modified Lisco holders with only about 2 mil of added adhesive thickness),
...
I would take a small fortune to get 3M to custom cut another batch of full-sized sheets of the correct Post-It adhesive

I managed to shot 9x12cm sheets in 4x5" holders by simply spraying 3M Re Mount glue in the septum, worked perfectly. I made a cardboard mask to not reaching the frame with the spray, that glue dose may be well used for a dozen of sheets, but before reloading it has to be checked. One can remove the glue with a solvent (that not damages the septum's paint).

After removing the exposed sheet I placed a dummy sheet in the sprayed area to protect the glue until the holder is reloaded.

The 4x5 holders have septum depth specified with a 7 mils tolerance, 2mils are not too much, but I'd say that spraying the glue on the septum adds a lower negligible thickness.

MartinP
8-Nov-2018, 06:17
I recall seeing a vacuum-based film-flattening 8x10" DDS which had the non-film side modified to look like funnel in the middle. One was meant to suck through a tube, via the funnel, through holes made in the septum, to get the film flat for the exposure. I assume it was homemade. At the time I didn't think to ask what the guy did for, say, a sixty-second exposure. Very possibly there was originally a small electric vacuum pump involved of course. Is this the sort of thing meant when posters have mentioned vacuum-holders earlier in this thread?

[ETA. The adhesive based idea seems much simpler and more practical.]

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2018, 07:26
I recall seeing a vacuum-based film-flattening 8x10" DDS which had the non-film side modified to look like funnel in the middle. One was meant to suck through a tube, via the funnel, through holes made in the septum, to get the film flat for the exposure. I assume it was homemade. At the time I didn't think to ask what the guy did for, say, a sixty-second exposure. Very possibly there was originally a small electric vacuum pump involved of course. Is this the sort of thing meant when posters have mentioned vacuum-holders earlier in this thread?

[ETA. The adhesive based idea seems much simpler and more practical.]

Check the old Hoffman Vacumm Holders or the Linhof ones.

pgk
8-Nov-2018, 10:22
FWIW, for the DIYers this might have some interesting potential: https://www.ikelite.com/products/vacuum-pump-with-gauge

Drew Wiley
12-Nov-2018, 18:59
Vac holders are easy to make if you use em one-sheet only : you seal off the back side of a regular double-sheet holder, drill a set of tiny holes in the septum, shim the backside so the septum doesn't deflect under vacuum, insert a tiny tube into the appropriate part of the edge, then cement in the rear darkslide to make it airtight. Nowadays you could use a small cordless vac, or for shorter exposures, a little hand pump like the one on a previous post. I've done it, but prefer the simplicity and two-sheet capacity of adhesive holders.

Tim V
17-Nov-2018, 21:51
Ok, so I’ve made myself an adhesive holder following the outline here by modifying a Fidelity holder. I could only get tape that is 12mm wide and was told the wider rolls are discontinued. Might not be true for you people is the US or Europe...

The slots were actually harder to cut than I thought they would be, but got there in the end. The tape covers more area than the pictured Sinar example and doesn’t look as pretty, but fingers crossed...

I can see what Drew means about goop on the edges of the roll, but it doesn’t look too bad. Pretty good, actually, but I guess the proof will be how much residue it leaves behind if film is in holder for more than a few days, plus I’m interested to know how long it stays sufficiently sticky...

Who else has attempted this DIY?

Drew Wiley
21-Nov-2018, 18:32
Mine still work after 20 yrs! Sinar used the same 3M "tape", but had it custom cut in sheet sizes. The minimum order for something like that would probably do 120,000 holders. I'm facetiously guessing of course. 3M is infamously hard to communicate with; but they also carry a incredible number of unique products. In this case, it's basically just a special Post-It division adhesive, permanent on one side, removable on the other.

Tim V
22-Nov-2018, 01:35
Thanks Drew. Yes, it seems to work really well! I put a fogged sheet of film in the holder three days ago and left it there upside down and checked it today. No sagging or curling at the corners and no residue on the back of the film when I peeled it off. Success! Just need to check it for light tightness now before I trust it in the field.

As an aside, if I load it with 400 ISO film and leave it in a lit room out of direct sunlight, how long should I leave it out for? I'm guessing if left long enough all holders will leak a bit, so wondering what the sweet spot might be for testing?

Thanks again,

Tim

Drew Wiley
22-Nov-2018, 13:52
They shouldn't leak light at all if the holders are correctly modified. I've had film in em for months on end.

Michael Roberts
22-Nov-2018, 14:52
Tim,
I have also attempted this with very mixed success. I've had sheets fall out of the holder into the back of the camera when I pull the dark slide, so now I'm testing exposed sheets in the holders for longer times to see how long they'll hold and under different temperature conditions.

I really, really want this to work b/c it opens up whole worlds of opportunities for me to fabricate ULF holders such as 7x11 (I've got a bunch of vintage Kodak holders, but they're relatively scarce) and odd sizes like 10x16....

What I've been working on is a set of 10 7x11 holders I've made; I'm using one as a test for the tape; the rest are waiting to have the tape installed.

Drew's success has been a huge inspiration to keep working on this.

Michael Roberts
26-Nov-2018, 09:08
Here are some pics of my diy adhesive holder...

1. placement and coverage of 3m tape
2. film curl on top and bottom of long side
3. film pressed flat

This film has been in the holder for about 3 mos., and the tape has held it in place very well except for the long edges. I may need to replace/add another strip of tape along the edges.
I may also need to make sure the film is flat each morning before shooting. I can fairly easily do this with a changing bag while traveling.

I am also wondering if the tape works better/worse with different types of film, i.e., whether different thicknesses/weight, backing, etc. affect adhesion? So far, the film I've had trouble with is Efke. This sheet of Provia seems to be sticking better.

Will update when I have more to report.

Michael

Michael Roberts
27-Nov-2018, 13:37
Update: I've been testing Provia and Efke over the last 24 hours, and the Provia is not sticking well at all along the long edges. It curls up within 15 minutes. So far, the Efke 100 is much flatter and is holding much better.

Tim and Drew, what film have you successfully been using in your adhesive holders?

Thanks,
Michael

Drew Wiley
27-Nov-2018, 19:48
My adhesive holders work with all sheet films. Never a problem. In your posted picture, Michael, the adhesive strips looks rather wrinkled. It might take some practice to get it right. If your tape did not come with its own release paper, you could use an 8x10 sheet of silicone treated drymount release paper over the tape in order to firmly pressure roll it down onto the holder surface. The backside should be permanently bonded to your holder (unless you deliberately remove it with solvent). Such bonding requires pressure.

Michael Roberts
27-Nov-2018, 21:08
Thanks Drew, sounds like good advice. I will try it. It's the standard 928 ATG 1/2" tape, so it does have a nonstick backing on one side (on the permanent adhesive side, as I recall). So I probably just pressed it down with light finger tip pressure.

Drew Wiley
28-Nov-2018, 10:40
You need to make sure the bonding surface is completely clean and oil-free with a suitable solvent like alcohol. And the ATG tape, once it is firmly in place and flat, with no bubbles, needs to be aggressively pressured down with either a small roller brayer or slick Bondo knife. Do this in a comfortable room (not a cold or damp one). Then allow the adhesive to set up at least a day before putting film in there (it takes these 3M acrylic adhesives about 24 hrs to gain full bonding strength).

Michael Roberts
28-Nov-2018, 18:52
Many thanks for the additional tips!

Tim V
29-Nov-2018, 12:23
Thanks for that, Drew.

Michael, your setup looks almost identical to mine except I think mine has less of a mottled like appearance (probably because I pressed the tape in quite hard by running my fingers over it several times.)

I've currently got a sheet of HP5+ loaded in it to run a test next week. I was hesitant to do it, but with fresh cleaned hands I did press the film in slightly within the holder to try help it bond with the glue. With the kind of work I'm doing I need to rely on it 100%, so will do a few tests before trusting it in the field and report back.

T

Michael Roberts
29-Nov-2018, 19:52
Tim, thanks. I loaded two holders with FP4 today to test on a trip over the next two weeks. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I was able to get the bubbles out by covering them with the waxed tape backing and rubbing it with a fingernail.

Fr. Mark
29-Nov-2018, 21:25
Years ago someone gave me a 4x5 press camera and holders.

I cut some electrical tape with the lights on, 35mm film with lights off, and taped it into the 4x5 holders. I think I did enough for 4 exposures. From maybe a half roll of film.

It was enough to prove to me the “ancient” camera worked. The residue from the electrical tape was awful. Don’t do this!

I’d never since considered putting tape in a film holder. Shooting downhill with an 8x10 it could be a solution to film flatness. Those Sinai folks sure were clever.

Tim V
30-Nov-2018, 14:13
The good thing about the ATG tape is that it stays in the holder and can be reused, therefore no mess (unless you happen to drop it on the carpet!) I'm crossing my fingers that I find it as reliable as Drew does.


Years ago someone gave me a 4x5 press camera and holders.

I cut some electrical tape with the lights on, 35mm film with lights off, and taped it into the 4x5 holders. I think I did enough for 4 exposures. From maybe a half roll of film.

It was enough to prove to me the “ancient” camera worked. The residue from the electrical tape was awful. Don’t do this!

I’d never since considered putting tape in a film holder. Shooting downhill with an 8x10 it could be a solution to film flatness. Those Sinai folks sure were clever.