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georgl
7-Mar-2012, 00:16
We recently ran into this topic again within another thread.
I have acquired a Sinar adhesive 8x10 holder some time ago and it's definitely a Fidelity holder with machined guides (and propably selected for tighter tolerances). So what about redesigning conventional holders (I've heard the adhesive tape can be bought from 3M) - or is somebody interested in making wooden holders compensating even for the height difference (caused by the thickness of the tape)?

I wonder why not all holders use adhesive tapes? Film is held perfectly, no guides needed, easier loading, even the flap isn't absolutely necessary anymore and the tape helds dust as well. Seems to the superior design, IMHO?

What am I missing?

Jay DeFehr
7-Mar-2012, 07:02
My designs for ULF holders are adhesive designs with no flaps or guides. These are much easier to design/build/load, and hold film much flatter. There's a recipe for the adhesive in the back of Developing, Jacobson and Jacobson. If I remember correctly, it's called "Sticky Easel", and based on corn syrup, so it's water soluble and easy to wash off, as needed.

Scott Walker
7-Mar-2012, 07:58
I like the idea of adhesive holders, has anyone used these in adverse conditions in the field. I have run into numerous problems with extreme temperature changes, mostly frosty film or lenses but I have had some incidences where the only explanation could be bowed film. How does the tape or glue stand up to -25 or -30.

Brian C. Miller
7-Mar-2012, 08:04
I have acquired a Sinar adhesive 8x10 holder some time ago and it's definitely a Fidelity holder with machined guides

Could you please post pictures of this? I went looking for images of a Sinar holder, and I couldn't find anything. I'd like to see what Sinar did to to the holder.

Thanks!

Chris Strobel
7-Mar-2012, 08:16
Yes pictures would be cool.I've got a couple 'junker' Lisco/Regal holders I've often thought about messing around with adhesive wise.

vinny
7-Mar-2012, 08:29
Do a search here for removable atg tape. I have a friend who's been using it with 8x10 holders w/o removing the guides. The problem is residue on he film if you leave it in the holders very long.

Drew Wiley
7-Mar-2012, 13:10
I just posted the answer to this on the camera thread. What you want is repositionable 3M
ATG tape. I've used this system in just about every kind of weather you can think of for
two decades now with no issues. But it does permanently modify your holder. I've never
had residue left behind on the film, but it suppose it might hypothetically happen if tape
was improperly stored and old when you bought it, or if some of the permanent side of the
tape has residue left behind. You need to apply this carefully, so that only the Post-It
side remains toward the film, and the permanent adhesive toward the septum.

Drew Wiley
7-Mar-2012, 13:16
Scott - I can't speak about -30F because we don't get that cold in the mtns here. But I do
know that long exposures in a conventional holder can risk a serious pop. Happened to me
twice recently shooting on a cold damp day. I reserve my adhesive holders for color film
since I'm much more likely to make really big print in color. With black and white I don't
print bigger than 20X24, which is a modest enlargement from 8X10. But I've certainly used
my adhesive system down around zero with no issues.

timparkin
7-Mar-2012, 13:45
We used the 3M repositionable tape on our 'Big Camera Comparison' and although it worked very well (or else we didn't have problems with 'pop' or sag) it did have side effects. The sticky tape left a lot of goop on the back of the film even though it was fresh on the day before and the film was removed the day after. The goop wasn't easy to remove completely - we had the film developed before removing it, I don't fancy trying to remove it in the dark - and the worst issue was the transfer from the back of one sheet to the front of the other which then caused development problems (i.e. transferred goo blocked developing and left smudges over the film).

I had high hopes for this having heard good things but in the end I had to remove the tape from all of my dark slides. The 3M tape was bought from a reputable supplier so should have been OK..

Any suggestions or other people's experience would be interesting. I won't be reapeating this apart from in extreme cases (i.e. using 8x10 pointing straight down).

Tim

Scott Walker
7-Mar-2012, 13:59
Scott - I can't speak about -30F because we don't get that cold in the mtns here. But I do
know that long exposures in a conventional holder can risk a serious pop. Happened to me
twice recently shooting on a cold damp day. I reserve my adhesive holders for color film
since I'm much more likely to make really big print in color. With black and white I don't
print bigger than 20X24, which is a modest enlargement from 8X10. But I've certainly used
my adhesive system down around zero with no issues.

Thanks Drew, I think I will give it a shot with at least a couple of my holders. I tend to call it quits at about -20 but given the right day with no wind, next to no humidity and a bit of sunshine -25 to -30 is workable.
I seldom print bigger than 16x20 and virtually never bigger than 20x24 but that does not mean that I never will so it would be nice to ensure that I can.

Drew Wiley
7-Mar-2012, 16:09
Tim - one does need to carefully remove any unwanted peripheral adhesive residue using
film cleaner or something comparable before actually putting film into the thing. And like I
said, applying the film with a gun, unless you carefully trim the ends with scissors, would
be just looking for trouble. Even the scissors need to be cleaned with solvent between each cut. The Sinar idea was a little better because they ordered up a bunch pre-cut just
a bit smaller than the full holder dimension. I'd imagine 3M would want to cut a huge amt
for a custom service like that. I do have an industrial 3M acct myself to the tune of over
100K per yr, but they're absolute hell to deal with - so many different divisions that the
right hand doesn't even know if the left hand even exists.

Brian C. Miller
7-Mar-2012, 22:01
We used the 3M repositionable ... it did have side effects.

Try Elmer's Repositionable Picture and Poster stick. The glue comes off with water, so if the film is prewashed then there would never be any development issues. It does leave a little residue if you use a lot, so it might stick front-to-back, and could possibly cause a development problem. However, it's very easy to wipe off, so a swipe with a PecPad would be good.

georgl
8-Mar-2012, 07:06
We have to find out the type of adhesive paper, I'm pretty sure it's from 3M/Scotch. I cannot take a picture because it's currently loaded, sorry. But it's a regular Fidelity (besides the branding) and the adhesive "paper" is about 1cm smaller than the back, with the exception of one side (there it's about 2cm - to make loading easier, pressing the film into the corners and then letting it fall/roll flat on the adhesive). The guides are just cut away.

Drew Wiley
8-Mar-2012, 08:29
The adhesive sheet was simply custom cut by 3M for Sinar. At one time you could buy the
sheets as "replacements" from Sinar. The repair folks obviously knew what you were up to,
but didn't seem to mind. Sinar probably holds a patent on the exact configuration, so that
would prevent anyone from outright marketing the same thing. It's a shame that they charged so much for a simple modification of a common holder; otherwise they could have
sold a lot of these adhesive holders. Even a fifty dollar upcharge would have been reasonable and they still would have made a solid profit. The adhesive itself costs next to
nothing; but you'd probably have to order crates of it to get 3M to custom cut it. The
bulk material is in their Post-It division. Good luck communicating with them - it takes some
patience. So about the easiest solution at the moment is 928 ATG tape.

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 08:52
Just ordered 2 rolls of the 928 ATG 3/4" tape and am excited to give it a shot on my 8x10 holders.

3M sates that the tape is 2.0mm thick......is this really thin enough to not mess with focus? Or should I plan on compensating? My guess would be that if I'm at at least f22 it shouldn't be apparent but wanted to see if anyone with experience with self modified adhesive holders has noticed any issues.

Thanks,
Adam

E. von Hoegh
8-Mar-2012, 08:54
Just ordered 2 rolls of the 928 ATG 3/4" tape and am excited to give it a shot on my 8x10 holders.

3M sates that the tape is 2.0mm thick......is this really thin enough to not mess with focus? Or should I plan on compensating? My guess would be that if I'm at at least f22 it shouldn't be apparent but wanted to see if anyone with experience with self modified adhesive holders has noticed any issues.

Thanks,
Adam

Two millimeters is far too thick.

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 09:04
That's kind of what I thought...here is what 3M says:

Scotch® ATG Repositionable Double Coated Tissue Tape 928 Translucent White, 0.75 in x 18 yd 2.0 mil:
2.0 mil, 400/1000 high tack/low tack acrylic, reverse wound, pressure sensitive adhesive double coated tape with a white tissue carrier on a polycoated kraft paper liner. For use with Scotch® ATG Adhesive Applicators.


This is the correct stuff...right?

E. von Hoegh
8-Mar-2012, 09:09
That's kind of what I thought...here is what 3M says:

Scotch® ATG Repositionable Double Coated Tissue Tape 928 Translucent White, 0.75 in x 18 yd 2.0 mil:
2.0 mil, 400/1000 high tack/low tack acrylic, reverse wound, pressure sensitive adhesive double coated tape with a white tissue carrier on a polycoated kraft paper liner. For use with Scotch® ATG Adhesive Applicators.

2.0 mils and 2mm are quite different. Two mils is two thousandths of an inch. Two millimeters is eighty thousandths of an inch.


This is the correct stuff...right?

davisg2370
8-Mar-2012, 09:09
2 mil and 2 mm are not the same thing.

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 09:17
Oops, of course......sorry for the confusion and thanks for the clarification!

E. von Hoegh
8-Mar-2012, 09:22
Oops, of course......sorry for the confusion and thanks for the clarification!

You're welcome. Perhaps someday the USA will update to the 19th century as regards weights and measures.(shaking head smiley)

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 09:25
You're welcome. Perhaps someday the USA will update to the 19th century as regards weights and measures.(shaking head smiley)

No kidding, I'm sick of base 12 measures and fractions.....base 10 and decimals make so much more sense to me

vinny
8-Mar-2012, 11:01
Just ordered 2 rolls of the 928 ATG 3/4" tape and am excited to give it a shot on my 8x10 holders.

3M sates that the tape is 2.0mm thick......is this really thin enough to not mess with focus? Or should I plan on compensating? My guess would be that if I'm at at least f22 it shouldn't be apparent but wanted to see if anyone with experience with self modified adhesive holders has noticed any issues.

Thanks,
Adam

No. Read drew's posts. No one would use it if it made focus worse than no adhesive at all.

adam satushek
8-Mar-2012, 11:22
Yeah thanks Vinny, I was mainly concerned that I may have gotten the wrong stuff. But it sounds like it is correct.

Drew Wiley
8-Mar-2012, 15:32
Lenses with sufficient coverage for 8X10 are usually long enough and used at small enough
apertures so that the 2-mil thickness of the adhesive foil has a negligible effect on focus.
It is certainly far less than the typical uneveness of film in a conventional holder. When one gets down to 4X5 or smaller, it might become an issue. That is why Sinar only offered
adhesive holders in 5X7 and 8X10. But you could hypothetically compensate a tiny bit.
I have never found this necessary.

adam satushek
15-Mar-2012, 19:39
Is there anyone who has done this modification to 8x10 holders with ATG 928 (Drew?) who is willing to post pictures of their unloaded holders with the dark slide removed? I'd really like to see what you have had success with so i can mimic it.

Thanks,
Adam

Scott Walker
16-Mar-2012, 05:27
Lenses with sufficient coverage for 8X10 are usually long enough and used at small enough
apertures so that the 2-mil thickness of the adhesive foil has a negligible effect on focus.
It is certainly far less than the typical uneveness of film in a conventional holder. When one gets down to 4X5 or smaller, it might become an issue. That is why Sinar only offered
adhesive holders in 5X7 and 8X10. But you could hypothetically compensate a tiny bit.
I have never found this necessary.


There would be no reason to try and compensate for the thickness of the tape, 2 Mill is only .002" (.0508mm) thick.

Mil is similar to a gauge system of measurement wherein each gauge or mil number corresponds to a certain measurement. In the case of the mil system of measurements the mil number corresponds directly to thousandths of an inch. For example 2 mil is 2 thousandths of an inch thick (.002") and 35 mil is 35 thousandths of an inch thick (.035")

Chris Strobel
16-Mar-2012, 08:20
Is there anyone who has done this modification to 8x10 holders with ATG 928 (Drew?) who is willing to post pictures of their unloaded holders with the dark slide removed? I'd really like to see what you have had success with so i can mimic it.

Thanks,
Adam

Yes just a quick digisnap of your holder would be cool and really really appreciated guys.

Thanks in advance!

-Chris

Drew Wiley
16-Mar-2012, 08:38
Sorry, but I don't own a digital camera. Once in awhile my wife borrows one. Maybe there's an online version with picture of the Sinar catalog. The part for the 8X10 adhesive holder is 566.38.000, but you'd need to view it with the darkslide withdrawn.

Nathan Potter
16-Mar-2012, 09:06
Lenses with sufficient coverage for 8X10 are usually long enough and used at small enough
apertures so that the 2-mil thickness of the adhesive foil has a negligible effect on focus.
It is certainly far less than the typical uneveness of film in a conventional holder. When one gets down to 4X5 or smaller, it might become an issue. That is why Sinar only offered
adhesive holders in 5X7 and 8X10. But you could hypothetically compensate a tiny bit.
I have never found this necessary.

Indeed. If you pick a COC of 20 um for an 8X10 at a typical f/45 then the Depth of Focus is 1.8 mm (around 75 mils) so don't worry about 2 mils. And even under those conditions if you can get resolution of 20 um over a good part of the film you are doing outstandingly well. Suitable for a pretty crisp 4 or 5 X enlargement. I could manage that and better with an inside precision setup but mostly failed quite miserably in the field under stress and weather.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

adam satushek
16-Mar-2012, 09:55
That's alright Drew, I guess my main question is how many strips of the ATG tape do you use? Do you do like 3 evenly spaced lengthwise? Or do you do many more? Sinar used a solid mat of the adhesive that seems like it would be ideal, so maybe lots of strips of 3/4 ATG laid parallel and pretty much touching to fill the holder would be ideal if I am doing the modification?

I hope you don't mind, but I have pasted below your very helpful instructions on modifying holders that you posted in another thread. This seems like a good reference that should be included in this thread as well.

"You start with a conventional plastic Lisco or Fidelity holder and carefully cut away flush
the fins of each side holding the film in (obviously not the part that holds the darkslide).
A straightedge, steady hand, and sharp utility knife are all that is needed. The film should
press directly in rather than slide in. Then you need the repositionable version of 3M ATG
tape which is permanent adhesive on one side (facing the septum) and reusable Post-It
adhesive on the side facing toward the film. You apply parallel strips lengthwise. I wouldn't
use an ATG gun. There should be no bubble, ripples, or bit of leftover adhesive. It's fairly
straightforward and the tape should work for maybe a thousand film changes if not stored
in a hot area. Be careful not to get dust on the adhesive during film changes. Might be a
good idea to practice first on a funky old holder. I believe the correct tape is 3M no.928,
but you might want to double check that." (Drew Wiley)

Drew Wiley
16-Mar-2012, 10:06
The more strips the better, lengthwise. Just be careful not to overlap them and to allow a
bit of space in between so you can remove any residual little balls of adhesive. And that's
the flaw of the ATG tape - when the master roll is sliced down, the edges of the tape will
obviously not be perfect. The Sinar idea with a nearly full sheet was superior. Wish they'd
reinstate it but at a realistic price.

adam satushek
16-Mar-2012, 11:31
Thanks Drew! Yeah it sounds like if we could get the ATG aprox 8 inch wide rolls, or pre-cut sheets it would be ideal.....but I'm sure this kind of special order from 3M would be unrealistic. 3/4 inch will have to do for now.

Daniel Stone
16-Mar-2012, 20:59
Drew's mentioned how dealing with 3M directly can be a nightmare

they're an international corporation who's ring finger doesn't know a middle or pinky finger exist(on the same hand nonetheless) :D

Dan

georgl
17-Mar-2012, 00:07
A German dealer tries to sell one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/SINAR-ADHESIVE-FILMKASSETTE-8x10-/140720951412?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Planfilmkassetten&hash=item20c39f5074

As you see, there is very little to see ;-) The black, slightly shiny (and covered with dust particles) adhesive film can be seen in the center, it's even a little bit smaller than in my memory. All we need now is to find the exact type used, has any of the US-guys contact to 3M?