Need some powerful strobe help

[atlcruiser]

Hi All,
In the last set of portraits I did I used a set of Britek 300s on one stand shooting into an umbrella with a reflector on the other side of the subject. Once I got it all set correctly I liked it. The issue was that I can only get f16 @ about 7-8 feet. With the 810 this is not enough! I really want f22 and would love f32 if at all possible.

I have looked all over but I get a bit confused with the monolights. My thought is that I need 1200ws+ to get where I want to be; especially if I eventually use a softbox. It seems that as soon as you cross the 1000ws threshold prices go through the roof…….I can’t afford $1,000 for a light.

I have been looking at this http://www.paulcbuff.com/x3200.php and I think it will do the job. I ran the numbers on their drop down menu and it look like I will get f21.6 @ 10’ through a soft box @ EI 200. Shot into an umbrella I should have no problem with f22+. That will work but I really feel that if I am dumping $600 there has got to be a more powerful option.

Any other suggestions? I want to keep this a monolight, not too crazy expensive and easy to service. Flashbulbs still seem to be the best option 

Thanks

[Peter De Smidt]

How about something like: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedotron-Blackline-2401-B-power-pack-/270924928647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f14625687
Along with: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedotron-102-Fan-Complete-Head-Excellent-UV-Flashtube-Modeling-bulb-/310383170496?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48444753c0

Or for more power:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedotron-4803cx-Blackline-Strobe-Power-Pack-free-T-shirt-/370589250030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5648d731ee
with a: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedotron-106-Light-Unit-w-7-Reflector-USED-/140667007894?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c0683396

[atlcruiser]

thanks Peter. The speedtrons are really sweet. I like the 4800ws option. If the subject gives me any lip I can blind him and give him a sunburn. Perfect world I can stay with a monolight but the price on the speedtron sounds great

[Frank Petronio]

Find someone willing and patient to test with and do a bunch of experiments with your lighting using a digital camera for feedback. Get it right on digital then shoot film, that is the way every pro will do it.

Why do you have the lights 7-8 feet away from your subjects if you are doing torso shots as I've seen you do? Also, seeing your lighting, you could do a couple of things that might make the photos "better" (subjective) and gain more efficiency from your current lights or allow you more control over choosing the aperture you want to work at.

First, move the damn things in closer. As a starting point, if you are photographing a three foot area (upper body) then have the light three feet away. Use an umbrella or soft box smaller than that since the light will spread. Picture I saw of your set-up on the Show Off your Camera thread showed a too large umbrellas too far away to jive with what you want. That wastes 2-3 stops right there.

Second, get better at focusing ;-p But I hear you, f/22 is a nice spot to be in for traditional portraits in 8x10. Maybe a 300 watt mono can't do it so upgrading makes sense. But why do you need to spend $1000 for a new strobe? It's not like you need fast recycling with 8x10. I'd also be cautious about putting a heavier moonlight up on a stand, once you go beyond those lighter, small ones then you will also need a serious stand and probably sandbags to "do it right". What I would seriously consider is getting one of the used 2000-watt Dynalite packs and a head (with a 2000 watt tube, not all of them are rated so high). For the money I think they are the best value in a quality, durable strobe. But there are a lot of good packs and head systems and I bet you could find a lot of power (and redundancy) for a lot less than a grand. And no, none of the pack I am selling are big enough for you ;-/

(Also the design of the head makes a big difference worth a couple of stops depending on your light modifier. Heads with built-in reflectors and recessed flash tubes work well with umbrellas. Head that stick their flash tubes out forward in a housing tend to work better in soft boxes and beauty dishes.)

(And yes, it is probably time to move up to big-boy strobes rather than plastic junk. But I am not a fan of Speedos unless they are dirt cheap - the heads are inefficient and waste a stop right out of the box - and they arc and are the heaviest things made. But they are durable!) (Avoid Normans, Balcars, old Calumets, old European stuff too, at least in the USA.)

Third, are using ISO 400 film? That would save a lot right there.

[Peter De Smidt]

And these things are studio work horses. They are robust and easily repaired. And since so many were sold, there's a wide range of fairly affordable accessories. The downside is that the power packs are heavy as sin. If you do get them, the main thing to remember is not to attach or unplug a head while the pack in powered on. I worked with these daily for two years.

I didn't do any investigating of the sellers, and so make sure you do a little of that if you do decide to bid on them.

[atlcruiser]

Find someone willing and patient to test with and do a bunch of experiments with your lighting using a digital camera for feedback. Get it right on digital then shoot film, that is the way every pro will do it.

Why do you have the lights 7-8 feet away from your subjects if you are doing torso shots as I've seen you do? Also, seeing your lighting, you could do a couple of things that might make the photos "better" (subjective) and gain more efficiency from your current lights or allow you more control over choosing the aperture you want to work at.

First, move the damn things in closer. As a starting point, if you are photographing a three foot area (upper body) then have the light three feet away. Use an umbrella or soft box smaller than that since the light will spread. Picture I saw of your set-up on the Show Off your Camera thread showed a too large umbrellas too far away to jive with what you want. That wastes 2-3 stops right there.

Second, get better at focusing ;-p But I hear you, f/22 is a nice spot to be in for traditional portraits in 8x10. Maybe a 300 watt mono can't do it so upgrading makes sense. But why do you need to spend $1000 for a new strobe? It's not like you need fast recycling with 8x10. I'd also be cautious about putting a heavier moonlight up on a stand, once you go beyond those lighter, small ones then you will also need a serious stand and probably sandbags to "do it right". What I would seriously consider is getting one of the used 2000-watt Dynalite packs and a head (with a 2000 watt tube, not all of them are rated so high). For the money I think they are the best value in a quality, durable strobe. But there are a lot of good packs and head systems and I bet you could find a lot of power (and redundancy) for a lot less than a grand. And no, none of the pack I am selling are big enough for you ;-/

(Also the design of the head makes a big difference worth a couple of stops depending on your light modifier. Heads with built-in reflectors and recessed flash tubes work well with umbrellas. Head that stick their flash tubes out forward in a housing tend to work better in soft boxes and beauty dishes.)

(And yes, it is probably time to move up to big-boy strobes rather than plastic junk. But I am not a fan of Speedos unless they are dirt cheap - the heads are inefficient and waste a stop right out of the box - and they arc and are the heaviest things made. But they are durable!) (Avoid Normans, Balcars, old Calumets, old European stuff too, at least in the USA.)

Third, are using ISO 400 film? That would save a lot right there.


Wow frank!

So..i have decided to use the digicrap to proof all of the set ups and i spent a day with my assistant figuring out how best to do this using the digital; and it made a big difference :)

Too big of an umbrella....had not thought of that. Will try it. I was actually about 5-6 feet away from the subject. Maybe 7 at most. Part of the issue is that these folks do not want to be right in the light or that close to it.

I think some people are attracted to a studio style set up and some are afraid of it. The majority of the subjects I have are afraid......

Focus....I agree but you gotta understand how fast this is happenning. I have forcklifts and a giant can crushing machine right on top of me. The subjects "might" dedicate 45' to this....usually less than that. I have to be set up and ready to go. They walk to the X, I tell them to stay still, grab a very quick look through the GG to set their head height then a holder and blam. Honestly, I doubt any of the folks have been on the X longer than 1 minute. F22 would be a BIG help and F32 would take a lot of stress away form this deal.

I have a Matthews baby mountain stand with bags..it was holding the umbrella in the photo. I also have the Matthews digital stands with bags for the reflector so I can hold the stuff in the air.

I am sold on HP5+ @ 200. I could jump to 400 but I am very happy with all of my results @ 200 and hate the idea of screwing with it all again.


thanks!

[Frank Petronio]

Focus....I agree but you gotta understand how fast this is happenning. I have forcklifts and a giant can crushing machine right on top of me. The subjects "might" dedicate 45' to this....usually less than that. I have to be set up and ready to go. They walk to the X, I tell them to stay still, grab a very quick look through the GG to set their head height then a holder and blam. Honestly, I doubt any of the folks have been on the X longer than 1 minute. F22 would be a BIG help and F32 would take a lot of stress away form this deal.


That's the battle isn't it? And you have to be critical and look at what your goals are - do you want to make a connection and make soulful portraits - or do you want to show you can do all that and in 8x10 too!?

No doubt if you can afford to persevere long enough to get really good at it, then you'll have something. But... at what cost?

Irving Penn did his tradesmen series with a Rollei for good reason, and he had the resources to shoot whatever he wanted. Avedon did the American West in 8x10 but note he had good natural light and assistants and probably more willing subjects (but he still had to deal with f/16, light is light).

[atlcruiser]

If it was easy everyone would do it :)

[DrTang]

get shoot thru umbrellas.. to keep the 'lectronics' part away from the subjects..they are as good as softboxes, but make round catchlights instead of rectangle ones

I like Larson Starfish

also..Matthews stands are the way to go..I love mine

[Peter De Smidt]

g
also..Matthews stands are the way to go..I love mine

As long as you don't have to carry them very far. If you're in a studio, you should sand bag every light stand. When you take the power cord from a monolight, or the connection cord from light to a power pack, thread the cord under one of the legs of the stand. That way if the cord is kicked, it will try to move the stand from the bottom instead of tipping it over. Of course, it's best to gaf tape down cords, or put throw mats over them, especially when working with models.

[Scott Davis]

If you want portable yet reasonably powerful, take a look at the Calumet Travelites - they're made by Bowens, so they take all of the gazillions of Bowens accessories. They've got 750 w/s versions that you can pick up used for not much. I've had my set for well over a decade (probably 14 years now, maybe 15) and they're still working just fine. Granted, I don't stress them out. You can get f22 at ISO 100 out of them in a softbox, but you'll have to get the softbox pretty close. I used them for shooting 4x5 portraits often and they worked great for that. I've since upgraded to a set of Calumet Elite 2400 w/s packs and heads because I'm shooting bigger format stuff a lot (anything from whole plate to 14x17). With 750 w/s, you can also double them up into a single umbrella/softbox and just slave the second one (they have built-in optical slaves) to get you that extra stop of output.

[Jfnphotography]

Speedotron 4803cx are great. I really like the range of power and they last for ever. I picked mine up for $350.00 and 102 heads are from $100.00 to $150.00 used. I went with Speedotron because a rental place near me rents 102 heads for $20.00 a day. You might check into renting before you buy.

The packs are large but if you put it on a cart it's easy to move around. You might also look in to a Speedotron 805 pack they are smaller and can even be used with a vagabound battery pack.

[atlcruiser]

I really appreciate all of the responses.

Scott the Calumet Travelites look pretty sweet and cheap. It does add some complication buy is there any reason I cant just get two 750 or 800s and gang them up? It will be cheaper for sure.

[Frank Petronio]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dyna-lite-Dynalite-M2000wi-2000-w-s-strob-pack-/120867957070?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c244aa94e#ht_500wt_1413

Buy a Dynalite 2000 w/s pack, a 4040 head, and a medium Beauty Dish all for about a grand used. Then you could shoot the kinds of shots you're attempting at f/45 with a nice separation from the background. Maybe use the old moonlights to throw a pass of light on the background and you're golden. The Dynas will be at least a stop more efficient than the Speedos, so figure it's the equivalent of a 4800 w/s Speedo....

[Jim Michael]

I really appreciate all of the responses.

Scott the Calumet Travelites look pretty sweet and cheap. It does add some complication buy is there any reason I cant just get two 750 or 800s and gang them up? It will be cheaper for sure.

Sure, the light adds. How easy is it to mount two units on one modifier?

[Oren Grad]

What Frank said. Forget about trying to stack monolights; no point going with a kludge when you can get equipment better designed for the task. The Dynalites give you a lot of light for the money, all the more so if you can get them used. If a single pack and head still isn't enough, when budget allows you can gain another stop by adding a twin-lamp head and driving it - conveniently and safely, as designed - with two generators.

[atlcruiser]

Sure, the light adds. How easy is it to mount two units on one modifier?

I built a dbl mount for the Briteks so that both equally point into the umbrella. it works fine for what it is.


I feel beaten down :)

Looks like the only way to do this right is to pony up and buy a big pack and a big head or 2. I guess in the long run it is better to go ahead and start building a kit now.

Don't any of you guys bid on the dynalite pack!

[Jim Michael]

Watch out, Frank might start a DIY giant flash thread.

[Frank Petronio]

Ha well there are plenty of options and even doubling up will work in this case. The problem with doubling up is that in some cases you will get two separate shadows that will look goofy. Frankly I would work on moving the light closer and focusing with greater control and confidence, and shooting at f/16. But power and overkill are always good too!

[atlcruiser]

FWIIW: I have been screwing around with bulbs quite a bit outdoors. I have a 4 bulb kit and a 2 bulb kit. At 50' I can hit f32 with 4 bulbs @ EI 200 or f45 with a second pop of the 4. THAT is some light :)

Like I told Frank last year...I am on my way to flash powder

[atlcruiser]

f16 on 810 is just not what I am going for. I am trying to walk the line between "art" portraits and straight documentary portraits; bottom line i need more DOF hence more light


I did get some funky shadows with the dbl head set up. No matter how well aimed they are there will still be some issue.

[SergeiR]

I really appreciate all of the responses.

Scott the Calumet Travelites look pretty sweet and cheap. It does add some complication buy is there any reason I cant just get two 750 or 800s and gang them up? It will be cheaper for sure.

and you will get one whopping extra stop.. Not much.

Even fairly small strobe like Elinchrom Quadra rated at 400W can put a punch at f22/f32 @ iso 400 for 3/4 portrait with modifier on it.

[premortho]

f16 on 810 is just not what I am going for. I am trying to walk the line between "art" portraits and straight documentary portraits; bottom line i need more DOF hence more light
I hope I'm not leading anyone astray----but my Kalart Speed Flash manual says f32 at 9 feet with one #5 or #25 flashbulb on Superpan Press, or Super XX @ 1/50th sec or slower.

I did get some funky shadows with the dbl head set up. No matter how well aimed they are there will still be some issue.

[atlcruiser]

That is about what I rate them at. I use guide # of 320 for HP5@ 200. 10' = f32

[premortho]

That is about what I rate them at. I use guide # of 320 for HP5@ 200. 10' = f32

Yes, today those two films would be rated at about asa 160-180. So HP5@ 200 is very close. By the way, on those rare occasions that I use flash I put a second one to fill the dark side 12-15 feet away. I'm too cheap to spend serious money on those things when I can buy flash guns for $5.00 and bulbs for 1 or 2 dollars apiece.

[atlcruiser]

Yes, today those two films would be rated at about asa 160-180. So HP5@ 200 is very close. By the way, on those rare occasions that I use flash I put a second one to fill the dark side 12-15 feet away. I'm too cheap to spend serious money on those things when I can buy flash guns for $5.00 and bulbs for 1 or 2 dollars apiece.

I am very close to that at this point. I need a better set up for the recyclers series i am knee deep in but for most other uses the bulbs are fine. I have an ASS LOAD of bulbs :)

[Two23]

I have x8 White Lightning x3200, each powered by its own Vagabond battery. I use these to shoot on location. I'm mostly getting f8 ISO 800. I am shooting outdoors though, lighting up about 800 feet of moving freight train. The x3200 can be bought for about $400 on eBay. I agree that if you need gobs of power in small space that pack heads are the way to go. You can get 5,000ws in one light that way.


Kent in SD

[Leigh]

...an umbrella with a reflector...
That raises a red flag.

Are you using a shoot-through umbrella? That wastes 50% of your light regardless of accessories or orientation.

As others have said, your umbrella is much too far away for what you're trying to do.

Use a fully-reflective (i.e. metallic) umbrella and move it in closer. You'll probably pick up at least 2 stops.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

No no it's like a 60s muscle car, just add more power and wilt the bastards.

[atlcruiser]

That raises a red flag.

Are you using a shoot-through umbrella? That wastes 50% of your light regardless of accessories or orientation.

As others have said, your umbrella is much too far away for what you're trying to do.

Use a fully-reflective (i.e. metallic) umbrella and move it in closer. You'll probably pick up at least 2 stops.

- Leigh

It is not a shoot through...it is some B+H brella white, with the black cover for the back. I agree that a fully reflective interior would be better but that really is just polishing the turd.

I do not disagree at all that the light is too far away...it probably is. I could try to get it a bit closer and maybe gain a stop. I mentioned earlier in the post the time constraints with this series. I am set up and get the subjects for maybe 60 seconds. This is not a studio environment and my subjects are wary to say the least!


I am looking at the lights you mentioned Kent...go to hear a good review

[Leigh]

OK. If it has a black cover, it's a shoot-through, and half your light is being absorbed by that cover.

- Leigh

[Two23]

I am looking at the lights you mentioned Kent...go to hear a good review


Another thing I'll mention about them is they are reliable even at 30 below zero. :)


Kent in SD

[atlcruiser]

Good news!

I found a deal on a White lighting 1800ws monolight.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180843093385?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

it arrived today and, for all the world, looks as new.

Thanks to Frank and the not so subtle comments by others I bought a 22" beauty dish as well :)

I think I actually have a decent, simple set up for 810. I still am on the look out for some speedos or other head and pack system but I could not turn this mono down.

Thanks for the help

[Wally]

OK. If it has a black cover, it's a shoot-through, and half your light is being absorbed by that cover.

- Leigh
OK. If it has a black cover, it's _not_ a shoot-through, and I don't know what Leigh was thinking about when he posted this.:confused:

[Leigh]

A cover is removable.

Umbrellas that include a cover as a separate item are shoot-throughs that use the cover to reduce spill.

- Leigh

[Wally]

A cover is removable.

Umbrellas that include a cover as a separate item are shoot-throughs that use the cover to reduce spill.

- Leigh

I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like he's using it with the black cover in place (if indeed his is removable).

The black cover will only reduce spill when not being used as a shoot-through: Obviously, if you're using the umbrella as a shoot-through, you have to remove the black cover.

If he's using it with the black cover in place, he's using it as a reflective surface. Not as reflective as silver would be, but not as lossy as shooting through it.


// Wally

[Leigh]

With a shoot-through umbrella, 50% is reflected by it, back toward the flash head. The other 50% goes through it.

The 50% that goes through is either spill, or it's absorbed by the black cover. In either case it's lost and not usable.

- Leigh

[Peter De Smidt]

Just as an update, I worked with a new dynalite kit the other day. I've worked with them before, but they were old and very heavily used in a professional studio. The new kit was great to use. The heads have built in reflectors, and so they work very well with umbrellas, but not so well with softboxes, although these are meant to be portable location kits, and so I doubt that softboxes would be used in any case. Of course the pro I was working with was using digital, and so we had to dial the pack all the way down. Get a shoot through umbrella (or a halo) close to your subject, and there would be plenty of light for use with an 8x10.

[Wally]

With a shoot-through umbrella, 50% is reflected by it, back toward the flash head. The other 50% goes through it.

The 50% that goes through is either spill, or it's absorbed by the black cover. In either case it's lost and not usable.

- Leigh
Thanks for explaining, Leigh. I'd never considered the amount of light that goes through the umbrella even when used reflectively.

// Wally

[Leigh]

You'er welcome. :D

When I was teaching studio lighting that was one point that I really emphasized with the students.

I never encountered a single student who had actually considered what happens to the light with a shoot-through.

- Leigh

[atlcruiser]

Leigh, I am not really disagreeing as you obviously know much more than I but I metered the light using the umbrella with no black cover and with a black cover when used as a reflector. With the black cover on I got right at or just under 1/2 stop more light than with the black cover off. When used as a shoot through I lost a full stop when compared to reflector with the black cover on.

This might be exactly what you are saying :)

I will pick up the beauty dish tomorrow so I can play with that a bit

[Leigh]

Hi David,

OK. That implies an asymmetric distribution of power.

I had _assumed_ a 50/50 ratio in my description, but that's not necessarily valid.

If you get more light in reflective mode with the cover on than with it off,
it's not really black, it's reflecting some of the incident light back through the umbrella. This is actually desirable.

It would be possible to design an umbrella with ~90% transparency, so virtually all the light would go through it,
then turn it into a reflector by using a fully-reflective cover. That's an interesting possibility.

Every product is a bit different. That's what makes the (a)vocation interesting. :D

- Leigh