Updating drivers....

[Kirk Gittings]

I've doubled the memory on my W7 machine and getting some problems-crashes in many programs and my video card going wacky.

So I am updating drivers and I have some questions.

Oftentimes I cannot tell whether a new driver has been installed.

If you unzip it does it automatically install?

I use a program Driver Agent to tell me which drivers need an update, but after "installing" new drivers it gives the same info about which drivers need upgrade. YET if I go through Windows Device Manager on each device it says in all cases that I have the most recent driver. What do I believe?

I feel like I am in never never land.

[BarryS]

The first thing I'd suspect is a defective memory card. Opening a zip file with drivers won't automatically install them. I'd be very surprised if this has anything to do with your drivers--they can't be that old on a W7 machine.

[Peter De Smidt]

I'd call Crucial and ask what's up.

[Kirk Gittings]

I did. After allot of diagnosis they said to update all the drivers! All the memory tests out fine individually. The machine runs perfectly with three 4GB cards installed, but put in the 4th (anyone of them) and everything goes wacky.

[Peter De Smidt]

Sh!t! Ok. I would believe what the Device Manager is telling you.
With the video card, you should simply download the file and run the executable file, but I doubt very much that the video card driver is the problem.

With the motherboard drivers, go to the mother board maker's site, and check on the downloads for your board. Compare the versions listed to what you have listed in your device manager. If the one's are newer on the website, download them and follow the instructions. You may also need to see if there is a bios update for your motherboard, which should be listed in the same area. The bios, in my non-computer-expert view, is the most likely issue, if the memory is good.

If you do all of that and things are still fubar, turn off your machine. Take out all but two of the memory sticks. (I expect that you have a dual channel memory system and need to add/remove sticks in pairs. Check your manual.) Boot and check for problems. Turn off. Replace with another pair. Boot and repeat. If all of the sticks work with two of them, then add another pair. Boot ....until you get up to the maximum. This should tell you if one of the pair of memory is bad, or if your board really can't support that much memory, despite there being physical space for them.

[Brian C. Miller]

+1 on the non-relationship between crashes and drivers.
+1 on the relationship between new memory chips and crashes.

It sounds like "Driver Agent" is giving you bogus information. I always use common sense and the OS utilities to give me correct information about the drivers. (But then again, I started programming 6502 machine language before high school, and that before Commodore was a household name.)

It is possible that you've installed memory that is incompatible with your motherboard.
Take out your new memory, and see if your crashes go away. (ah - three is OK, fourth goes blooey)

When you add memory to a machine, even though you may have purchased the same type of memory you bought before, it may not be the appropriate type for the total memory size. For instance, my motherboard at home specifies different types for 1Gb, 4Gb, and 8Gb of RAM, and it was very picky about the brand for 8Gb.

(Yeah, it's a RAM type incompatibility. The sticks are fine individually, but you need slower RAM for full memory usage.)

[Kirk Gittings]

All the ram checks out individually and in various pairs, runs fine with 12, 16 the problem. Gigabyte site says my MB will take 16gb but maybe not the speed of the RAM which is 12800? i can't find that on the MB site.

[Brian C. Miller]

The tested RAM types will be listed in the motherboard manual. Also, there should be updates on the MB site about tested RAM compatibility. You probably need the next speed down from what you have.

Can give information about the MB brand and number?

Added: OK, Gigabyte. Click on their site to get to your MB model, and then click on the "Memory Support List" button for the tested memory types.

[Kirk Gittings]

Yes it is a Gigabyte GA-EP45T-UD3LR (rev. 1.3)
http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3487#sp

[Peter De Smidt]

The latest bios for the motherboard says that it improves memory compatibility.

[Kirk Gittings]

I have F5, even F7 says it improves memory compatibility.

Is bios hard to upgrade? I've never done it. I'm leery of Beta anything. Maybe the one below it, F10?

[Leigh]

Using higher-speed memory than originally came with the machine won't matter.
It will just run at the maximum bus speed, which would be lower than its max.

It's like a sports car. Just because it can do 200 mph doesn't mean you have to drive that fast.

On most MBs it's important that all installed memory sticks be identical. Mixing types can cause problems.

I NEVER update drivers unless there's a very good reason to do so, for a specific driver.
Did I say NEVER??? I meant NEVER.

I would not recommend upgrading the BIOS unless you KNOW that there's a problem with it. Although modern MBs are generally designed to support such upgrades, there is a possibility for problems. If such occurs, the machine is dead.

I've earned a very good living designing computers since 1975. I started working with personal computers 10 years before the IBM PC was introduced.
I build all of my own computers, of which I have quite a few.

- Leigh

[Peter De Smidt]

I have upgraded a bios before, and it wasn't a problem, but as Leigh said, if something goes wrong it can be no fun. That said, it's exactly these types of issues that may be fixed by a bios upgrade. Boards are rushed to market, often before all of the software bugs are worked out. You'd want to read a bit about it before doing it.

I did a little googling about your motherboard and memory issues, and it did turn up some stuff.

You can run memtest on your memory. See: http://www.memtest.org/.

[Leigh]

Boards are rushed to market, often before all of the software bugs are worked out.
Sorry, but I must disagree.

There's a long lead-time on MBs, because the whole processor and supporting chip set must be completed, and the MBs are being designed and fabricated in parallel with that effort.

There's a lot of time devoted to testing at the IC manufacturer before the chips are ever released to the market.

Software definition is the very first step in designing a microprocessor. The μP is designed to implement that s/w.
If there's a bug in the design such that it fails to meet the s/w spec, the bug is corrected before the μP is ever released.

I've had product introductions delayed because of such difficulties, but it's quite unusual for problems to crop up after chip sets are released.
When they do, the symptoms and causes are well-documented.

- Leigh

[Peter De Smidt]

My experience is otherwise, especially with enthusiast products. If you read builds on enthusiast sites, such as Tom's Hardware, you will regularly read about bios updates required to get promised "features" working correctly, but it sounds like I have about a decade less experience building computers than Leigh. Thus I'm sure he's right, and I don't want to waste any more time arguing about it.

[Brian C. Miller]

Kirk, here's the list link: motherboard_memory_ga-ep45t-ud3lr.pdf (http://download.gigabyte.us/FileList/Memory/motherboard_memory_ga-ep45t-ud3lr.pdf)

Leigh: I used to work as a lab tech for a manufacturer. I worked directly with the hardware engineers, one of whom used to be a chip (CPU) designer at Intel. A customized BIOS can, indeed, have bugs in it. High-speed memory can be on the hairy edge of operation, and there can be lots of things that show up later. The BIOS development doesn't necessarily have a long lead time.

[Leigh]

Brian,

The motherboard BIOS is not a "custom" BIOS.

They're done by companies that have been in that business for many years, like Award. They know what they're doing.

They have direct access to the manufacturers during the design phase for the micro, and know everything there is to know about it.

It's a profit thing. One major error can cost them a lot of money.

This is not like the garbage consumer s/w that floods the market, with more errors than you can count.

I've written quite a few "custom" BIOS packages, and they're quite a bit different than what comes on a commercial MB.

- Leigh

[Leigh]

My experience is otherwise, especially with enthusiast product.
I think the problem is with the "enthusiasts", not with the MB manufacturers.

The "enthusiasts" that I've encountered have been gamers who are over-clocking and otherwise violating product specs, and trying to make their Frankenstein monster work.

I haven't worked in that market. My experience has been exclusively industrial.

- Leigh

[Greg Miller]

It sounds like that last extra 4GB may be drawing a bit too much voltage. Try editing the BIOS. In the Advanced memory Settings, change "Performance Enhance" form turbo to standard to see if that helps. Also check to see if System Memory Multiplier is set to Auto or to a specific speed.

[Peter De Smidt]

If there weren't problems with the shipping version of the bios, there would be no need for updates. In this case, quite a common one with consumer boards, there were quite a few. It is standard enthusiast builder practice to not load any software contained on the cds included with the motherboard, as they are inevitably out of date.

Changing topics, there traditionally was a distinction between consumer systems and photo or video editing workstations. In the consumer realm, very few people needed to max out their ram. Until very recently, gamers for instance regularly used the fastest two sticks of memory that they could get. Adding more memory lead to less performance. (There was also the cost issue, and memory used to be much more expensive than it is now.)

As a result of this, manufactures did not concentrate on getting consumer boards to work with all of the memory slots populated, something that would've been very important for a workstation. Fixing this is not necessarily cheap or easy. Nonetheless, they included the slots, because of marketing pressures. If you do some reading on test sites you'll see many older consumer boards simply didn't work with maxed out memory. This is something that is changing for the better, but doesn't appear to be completely gone.

Kirk will have to decide if he should keep the most memory that currently works ok, or if he should spend more time trouble-shooting it.

[Brian C. Miller]

Brian,

The motherboard BIOS is not a "custom" BIOS.

They're done by companies that have been in that business for many years, like Award. They know what they're doing.

They have direct access to the manufacturers during the design phase for the micro, and know everything there is to know about it.

It's a profit thing. One major error can cost them a lot of money.

This is not like the garbage consumer s/w that floods the market, with more errors than you can count.

I've written quite a few "custom" BIOS packages, and they're quite a bit different than what comes on a commercial MB.

- Leigh

Back in the early 90's I went with two of our software guys and one of the hardware engineers to a four-day course at the Phoenix headquarters in California. The course was standard when a company bought a source code license from Phoenix. IIRC, we were switching away from Award, and AMI wasn't a consideration. Our new hardware required better BIOS source, and Phoenix had the best package for customization. Yes, I do have some direct knowledge in this area. The additional chipsets on a MB can require BIOS customization, and the guys I worked with wrote FPGA code without a second thought. The systems were used primarily for medical and industrial control in VME and VXI chassis, and there were some government contracts as well.

Anyways, none of this helps poor Kirk with his MB problems.

[Kirk Gittings]

Now I'm really screwed. I decided to put my old memory back in and return the new. But now my computer won't power up at all. It just starts to and then shuts off over and over again! HHEEEELLLPP.

[Peter De Smidt]

What did you change just before removing the new memory? When the computer starts to re-boot, can you get into bios? It sounds like you changed a setting in the bios that doesn't allow stable operation.

[Kirk Gittings]

I didn't do anything in the bios as far as I know. I just updated some drivers.

[Peter De Smidt]

Ok. What drivers? When your computer starts up, there's a key to press that will send you to the bios. Are you able to do that?

[Kirk Gittings]

I switched the memory back to the new-same shit. I then switched it back to the old again and it just now started up. WHEW!

i updated the graphics card and the CPU drivers

[Peter De Smidt]

That's good news!

[Kirk Gittings]

Man I was sweating bullets!

As per the memory, I am in dialogue with the MB manufacturer to get their POV.

[Kirk Gittings]

Thanks Peter and everyone. I'll update this when I actually know something.

[Daniel Moore]

RAM is notoriously finicky and some things need to be established to isolate the variables. If you've bought the sets at different times they ideally should be exactly the same, from a retail packaging standpoint. If you pull them out and mix them up you may be mixing up the batches they were manufactured in, yes, that finicky. You would benefit from knowing which are meant to be pairs and label them in a way that won't void their warranty. A free program called CPU-Z can tell you the week they were manufactured, two will match, they are a set and should be kept that way. Your motherboard has a standard pairing, you'll need to know this. It could be either adjacent or alternating slots are paired. It's not conclusive simply to guess as things may actually work in the 'wrong' installation, it's in the manual and needs to be adhered to. You need to know the manufacturers voltage rating for that RAM and go into the BIOS and find out if you are running it, if not, change it VERY CAREFULLY, too much by even a little bit can smoke it. Do not refer to CPU-Z voltage readings, only the BIOS can be trusted.

I like to live on the edge and do every BIOS update that is NOT BETA. Bios flashing utilites have come a long way from the time when bricking a board was a very real concern. Gigabyte has a good set of instructions on their website where you'll find the BIOS. Print it out for sanity's sake. Take it real slow, triple check yourself as you go as it's new to you. In all likelihood their tech support will instruct you to do this anyway before proceeding. Do verify your RAM is on their compatiblity list IN THE CONFIGURATION you're using, don't assume because 8 works that 16 will too of the same make type, it needs to be listed there. If it's not, that's actually not the end of the world as they don't test all possible configurations, it's just something you need to be aware of as a potential problem. RAM arrives DOA all the time. All the time. I suggest you simply get another set and try it out. That fixes most such problems right there.

Lastly, check CPU-Z values for actual RAM timings, comparing the BIOS set timings (boards tend to pick their own defaults (AUTO) if you don't override them) against the manufacturers spec'd timings. If AUTO, then set them manually to the specs provided by the RAM manufacturer. If you're running bleeding edge low latency RAM, sometimes just loosening the timings will improve your chances of stability as you add more capacity.

Oh, ditch the driver helper. Win 7 does a very good job of that itself and quite often these little innocent helper programs are spyware anyway. Let windows advise you but make your own call. They aren't often necessary unless you have specific problems.

RAM should always be the first thing you suspect when a computer goes haywire, Mac or PC, nothing is faster or easier to switch out and it's so common it pays to start there. It's incredibly cheap now so a spare known working set is literally cheap insurance.

One more important tip, simply removing RAM and putting it back in, commonly referred to as reseating, can solve some problems all by itself. Of course if you're not wearing an antistatic wrist strap but sure to sit still, touch bare metal on the back and wait a good 30 seconds after the power has been switched off.

[Peter De Smidt]

Daniel gives great advice.