Which wideangle for a Crown Graphic?

[Tilman Drobik]

Hi guys. First post.

I´m waiting for my Crown Graphic beeing delivered. It will come with a Schneider 135 f4,7 Xenar. Can´t wait until I hold it in my hands.
I intend to do some landscape, reporting as well as architecture projects (although shift is limited).
Which wideangle -not sooo superwide- would serve the camera? On graflex.org I read that a 65mm would do fine.
Which brand and what specifications should I search for when trying to purchase a used one.

Thanks alot.

Tilman

[johnielvis]

65 IS superwide on 4x5...you need newer ones to cover 4x5 though...the 65 f8 superangulon JUST barely covers stopped down

[Tilman Drobik]

Yes, of course you´re right. 65mm is too wide. Just looked it up. I suppose for my purpose a 90mm would suit very well.

Wich would you recommend? And how about the lensplate for a Crown Graphic? Do I just buy a spare one and try to mount the lens in it? I suppose not.

Thanks

Tilman

[Kevin Crisp]

The 90mm Angulon is a classic lens to use on a crown, but even with a later version movement is barely any. Some sample are very sharp to the corners. I'd try a serial number in the 7's or above. They are very small and easily fold up in the camera.

There are lots of 90mm lenses around with more coverage that would allow you to use lots of front rise. All the big 4 manufacturers have excellent lenses in this focal length and used ones abound. It is more convenient to have two lens boards for the camera so you don't have to take one lens off the board you have, then reinstall the other. The wire frame finder will automatically adjust for the longer lens if you don't want to compose on the ground glass.

[Jim Noel]

A 90mmm Angulon, not Super Angulon, was the standard for this camera for years. It allows the camera to fold with the lens mounted. You will need a lens board with a hole drilled to a diameter suitable for the shutter of the 90 mm lens. Mounting is a piece of cake, and easily done by anyone, so long as the lens comes with a retaining ring.

[Frank Petronio]

They are usually in shutters that are the same diameter as the popular current Copal 0 (even if they are the older Compurs).

Look for the later model Angulons (serial > 6million) and stop it down to f/22 and it is as sharp as anything else. Just not a lot of movement, but the Crown isn't the camera to use for movements anyway.

You can mount a large modern $1500 90mm lens on a Crown but it seems a little silly. A $200 Angulon is a nice match.

[Kevin Crisp]

or you could buy Frank's 120mm lens....

[Dan Fromm]

Tilman, good luck with your new old camera.

The 4x5 Crown's limiting dimension for wide angle lenses is its minimum flange-to-film distance. 52.4 mm. If you want to use a 90 or a modern 65, this should be no problem. Look on manufacturers' sites or search around to find lenses' minimum flange-to-film distances.

Jim Noel suggested a 90/6.8 Angulon. As he said, the camera can be closed with the lens on it. This is also true for the 88/6.8 Bausch & Lomb and 90/6.8 Raptar (straight from Wollensak)/Optar (from Wollensak via Graflex). The B&L and Wolly lenses are functionally equivalent to the 90 Angulon and are contemporary with your camera.

Another US-made alternative is the 100/6.3 Wide Field Ektar. Harder to find than, probably pricer than, a 90 Angulon or Raptar. The 100/6.3 Aristostigmat is similar, usually sells for less but isn't always offered in shutter. I have one in barrel; ok lens but because it has no shutter and can't be put in one inexpensively mine isn't what you want.

Don't buy a board until you have your wide angle lens in hand. This because the holes in boards are sized for specific shutters. A board with a hole too small for your new lens' shutter can be rebored. A board with a hole too large can't be used easily or inexpensively.

Used, also NOS and new reproduction, boards are offered on ebay. www.skgrimes.com stocks them and can drill them, www.mpex.com used to, may still, stock them but can't drill.

[Tilman Drobik]

Well, thank´s alot for your quick and very helpful relies!! Great!

Cheers Tilman

[IanG]

Like Frank and Jim suggest the 90mm f6.8 angulon is a good lens on a Crown (or Speed) Graphic. However you must take care to find a good one some of the earlier ones aren't as sharp, I know Kevin's made a point about later serial no's being OK and my own experience is the same - I've used 3 but my current one is excellent.

The 90mm Angulon and the 135mm Xenar both have very limited coverage and neither are ideal for architectural work with movements. I've been using a 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon on my Crown & Super Graphic and it wasn't too expensive ($200), I also now use a 135mm 5.6 Caltar (Symmar).

The best place for lens boards id Heavystar on ebay, he sells 3 new boards for about the same price some sell individual S?H boards on Ebay.

Ian

[BradS]

or you could buy Frank's 120mm lens....

actually a very good suggestion. Thje problem with the 90mm lens on a 4x5 crown/speed is that most lenses of that focal length will want to sit at or very near the hinge in the bed and need the bed to be dropped. The 120mm would avoid both of these problems and give nice coverage!.

[Bill_1856]

Don't even think of buying another lens until you've use the 135 for several months. Then you'll know what/if other lens you will need.

[Tilman Drobik]

Yes indeed, that is a good point. I should wait and buy a WA lens later. But for now I think an Angulon might a good thing to start a way into LF.

Thanks Tilman

[Zaitz]

I love my Caltar 75mm f6.8. I shaved the lip of the lens cap slightly and it folds up fine inside my Crown Graphic Special. Both for sale btw :D.

And I disagree completely with not getting another lens. I heard that from several people when I first ventured into 4x5. I knew what lenses I liked in 35mm and the same has held true for 4x5. Using the 135mm, for me, was a waste of time as I don't enjoy a similar focal length in 35mm and haven't for 4x5. I should have bought what I knew I liked from the get go.

[Jim Andrada]

Plus 1 for the Wide Field Ektar. It's compact and quite nice. I've used a 75mm Grandagon which works nicely. The Crown works better with really short lenses than the Super because the Crown's internal tracks are coupled to the tracks on the bed - ie they focus. The Super for some strange reason doesn't couple them so the internal tracks don't move - I think it's because the way they use the tracks to latch the door closed instead of the hidden button on the Crown. I actually like the Crown better, but the Super has forward tilt (inconvenient but there), the back rotates, and the focusing hood snaps off so old guys like me can get their faces close enough to see the groundglass.

[Liam:]

I use a Schneider 90 f6.8 Angulon on my crown and its perfect, not much room for movement and I have a habit of not dropping the bed but it only cost me £100. It does overlap with the 135mm, I will probably by a 180mm lens soon and leave the 135 at home.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6139/5934458517_69f98d6fff_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53243597@N02/5934458517/)

[Dan Fromm]

Plus 1 for the Wide Field Ektar. It's compact and quite nice. I've used a 75mm Grandagon which works nicely. The Crown works better with really short lenses than the Super because the Crown's internal tracks are coupled to the tracks on the bed - ie they focus. The Super for some strange reason doesn't couple them so the internal tracks don't move - I think it's because the way they use the tracks to latch the door closed instead of the hidden button on the Crown. I actually like the Crown better, but the Super has forward tilt (inconvenient but there), the back rotates, and the focusing hood snaps off so old guys like me can get their faces close enough to see the groundglass.Jim, the Crown's hood should snap off too. All of my 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics have removable hoods. Read the manual.

[Frank Petronio]

The 90mm Angulon is pretty dim to focus, actually all but the fastest and most expensive wide angle lenses are going to be harder to focus than any of the normal 135 or longer lenses, that's not me, it's physics.

So yes, for learning please start with the 135 to 180 range on a Crown so you'll at least make a few successful shots early on....

Oh yeah my 120L for sale is bright and easy to focus but it is probably too expensive.

[IanG]

The 90mm Angulon is pretty dim to focus, actually all but the fastest and most expensive wide angle lenses are going to be harder to focus than any of the normal 135 or longer lenses, that's not me, it's physics.

If the screen has a fesnel it's much easier to focus with the 90mm f6.8 Angulon, it makes a huge differance. I retro fitted a fresnel to my Crown Grapghic now hand held composing and focussing on the screen is easy with the Angulon.

Ian

[Liam:]

If the screen has a fesnel it's much easier to focus with the 90mm f6.8 Angulon, it makes a huge differance. I retro fitted a fresnel to my Crown Grapghic now hand held composing and focussing on the screen is easy with the Angulon.

Ian

How do you do this with out mucking up the focus? I guess you need to shim the film holder if you put the fresnel on the lens side...?

[Dan Fromm]

How do you do this with out mucking up the focus? I guess you need to shim the film holder if you put the fresnel on the lens side...?

You put the fresnel on the back (photographer) side of the GG.

Liam, Graflex made Pacemaker Graphic focusing panels with and without fresnels; when they introduced fresnel lenses for Pacemakers in 1949, the fresnel was an option.

Both types of focusing panel have the same casting number. The difference between them is in the bosses that the GG (or GG + fresnel) sits on. Without fresnel, high bosses; with fresnel, low bosses. The difference is visible when focusing panels of both types are set side by side; I estimate that the low bosses are ~ 1 mm high, but (a) never measured properly and (b) haven't done the comparison for a while.

Shimming will require a shim of negative thickness. Interesting idea, impractical.

[banjo]

today there are 3 Kodak Wide-Field Ektar 135/6.3 on Ebad
a good all around Wide lens for 4x5

[IanG]

How do you do this with out mucking up the focus? I guess you need to shim the film holder if you put the fresnel on the lens side...?

You place the fresnel on the outside of the focus screen, you need to shim the clips on a Graphicor the foccus hood doesn't clip in securely.

The fresnel only goes on the inside on backs designed to use one that way.

Ian

[Frank Petronio]

Most Crowns I've had, 6 or 7 now, already had a fresnel... you'd be talking about some older models.

But even with the fresnel, a wide lens is far worse than a longer one. I'm not telling you not to get it, but for learning the basics you might better use your normal lens at least to start with.

[IanG]

Most Crowns I've had, 6 or 7 now, already had a fresnel... you'd be talking about some older models.

But even with the fresnel, a wide lens is far worse than a longer one. I'm not telling you not to get it, but for learning the basics you might better use your normal lens at least to start with.

You've been lucky I've 4 Pacemaker spring backs and none were designed to take a fresnel. my Crown graphic is 1968 according to the SN.

The best thing to do with a Crown or Speed graphic is fit a new screen or simpler still give the existing screen a quick regrind, that alone can help by well over a stop and a half in increased brightness, with a fresnewl as well it's more like 3 stops.

I was very frustrated by the poor brightness of my Crown Graphic compared to my Wista so made sure I did everything I could to get it closer. A better screen and the fresnel has done that. Thse improvements are there regardless what lens you use.

Ian

[Liam:]

I reground a new screen for my crown but it still isn't great. Do you know where I could pick up a fresnel that would fit Ian?

Cheers

[thomas ciulei]

for the 90mm angulon you would need a recessed board, otherwise its just impossible to set the infinity stops. Recessed boards for graflex are really hard to find- i am getting one made at a machine shop these days. Also u need to drop the bed for infinity focus on the angulon. I think its a great lens, very small and quite sharp, but a hassle to use when doing reportage as u indicated without the recessed board and an aligned kalart. good angulons (chk serials as somebody posted) go for 100-150 euros- if u are going to get one, u might want to opt for the linhof branded angulon.

[IanG]

I have no trouble using a 90mm Angulon on a flat board on my Crown Graphic, I think you just get used to it.

Sometimes cameras wre modyfied for sdedicated wide angle use, I've seen an MPP with part of the top casing cut away to alow rise with very short lenses, and I have a pre-Anniversary Speed Graphic that was modified before final finishing as a WA camera, the bed and focus track were moved and fixed inside the casing.

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/speedgraphic.jpg

The rangefinder is set for a lens of approx 90mm, but I've not put a WA lens on it yet.



I reground a new screen for my crown but it still isn't great. Do you know where I could pick up a fresnel that would fit Ian?

Not sure Liam. I've been looking for reasonable priced options myself. I bought one from a company in the US 3 years ago but he's definitely not recommended (there were complaints on this forum about him). A £1.45 Fresnel for my 6x9 Busch Pressman seemed a bargain :D

I want to ad fresnels to 3 of my German 9x12 camera's so I'm actively looking :)

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

for the 90mm angulon you would need a recessed board, otherwise its just impossible to set the infinity stops. Recessed boards for graflex are really hard to find- i am getting one made at a machine shop these days. Also u need to drop the bed for infinity focus on the angulon. I think its a great lens, very small and quite sharp, but a hassle to use when doing reportage as u indicated without the recessed board and an aligned kalart. good angulons (chk serials as somebody posted) go for 100-150 euros- if u are going to get one, u might want to opt for the linhof branded angulon.

There's another, more elegant solution.

First off, there's nothing wrong with dropping the bed. Why does it bother you?

About the infinity stops, this is a complaint with all lenses that focus to infinity only with the front standard on the camera's inner bed rails. There's a rangefinder coupling -- basically, a peg -- on the right side of the inner bed rail that makes it impossible to put a standard folding stop on the right rail. The standard solution is to put one (1) stop at the appropriate place on the left inner bed rail. This isn't very satisfactory, allows unintended swing.

Fred Lustig showed me a much cleaner solution that will allow the RF to be set up for a lens that makes infinity with the front standard on the inner rails. He called it a Chinaman. A Chinaman is a spacer sized so that when it is snug against the back of the two bed stops set for the camera's normal lens and the front standard is snug against the back of the Chinaman the lens is at infinity.

There's a little more than that to a Chinaman. To learn more, visit http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf and read about it.

[Tilman Drobik]

Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences and solutions. Great help!
Tilman

[john biskupski]

Useful reading on choice of small wide angle lenses is here http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/wide.htm
The Congo 90/6.8 is an additional choice for you.

[Tilman Drobik]

They are usually in shutters that are the same diameter as the popular current Copal 0 (even if they are the older Compurs).

Look for the later model Angulons (serial > 6million) and stop it down to f/22 and it is as sharp as anything else. Just not a lot of movement, but the Crown isn't the camera to use for movements anyway.

You can mount a large modern $1500 90mm lens on a Crown but it seems a little silly. A $200 Angulon is a nice match.

OK, here we are: I found an 90 angulon. BUT which is the serial number?? The one next to the front lens or the number on the side? Both pictures are supposed to be of the same lens (current ebay auction).

Tilman

[Dan Fromm]

The lens' s/n is on the front cell, the shutter's is on the shutter barrel.

[Tilman Drobik]

abhhhh :)

[thomas ciulei]

There's another, more elegant solution.

First off, there's nothing wrong with dropping the bed. Why does it bother you?

About the infinity stops, this is a complaint with all lenses that focus to infinity only with the front standard on the camera's inner bed rails. There's a rangefinder coupling -- basically, a peg -- on the right side of the inner bed rail that makes it impossible to put a standard folding stop on the right rail. The standard solution is to put one (1) stop at the appropriate place on the left inner bed rail. This isn't very satisfactory, allows unintended swing.

Fred Lustig showed me a much cleaner solution that will allow the RF to be set up for a lens that makes infinity with the front standard on the inner rails. He called it a Chinaman. A Chinaman is a spacer sized so that when it is snug against the back of the two bed stops set for the camera's normal lens and the front standard is snug against the back of the Chinaman the lens is at infinity.

There's a little more than that to a Chinaman. To learn more, visit http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf and read about it.

thats's nifty :))
thank you Dan Fromm

[Michael Roberts]

90mm Optar or Raptar. In my experience, these are great lenses for the CG. Inexpensive, lightweight, and excellent quality. Limited coverage of course, but the camera has limited movements, so they're a perfect match.



Hi guys. First post.

I´m waiting for my Crown Graphic beeing delivered. It will come with a Schneider 135 f4,7 Xenar. Can´t wait until I hold it in my hands.
I intend to do some landscape, reporting as well as architecture projects (although shift is limited).
Which wideangle -not sooo superwide- would serve the camera? On graflex.org I read that a 65mm would do fine.
Which brand and what specifications should I search for when trying to purchase a used one.

Thanks alot.

Tilman