Freezing Polaroid

[Uri A]

Having hoarded all I can of my beloved FP-100B, I now have to figure out how to store it.

I know most of you freeze your film, but how do you store your instant films? Does freezing rupture the pods?

Thank you!

[Vaughn]

I keep mine in the refrigerator, not the freezer. I have heard that freezing can damage it, but I do not have any solid data.

[Steve Smith]

Do not freeze it. The pods can burst as frozen liquids can take up more space than non-frozen. This is why frozen pipes burst.


Steve.

[Uri A]

Thanks guys. Anyone actually tried it? Maybe I'll sacrifice a partial pack for an experiment ...

[BrianShaw]

Thanks guys. Anyone actually tried it? Maybe I'll sacrifice a partial pack for an experiment ...

Why bother? Please re-read Steve Smith's post and think about the foodstuff that is currently in your freezer. Or freeze a can of soda pop as your experiment. You don't think Polaroid put "do not freeze" on their packaging for no reason at all, do you?

[Uri A]

Ease up on the tone there Brian. Anyone old enough to type knows that liquids expand when frozen.

In my initial post (which you didn't read) I ask: "Does freezing rupture the pods?". Whether or not a frozen bottle will burst depends on how full it is, how flexible it is and what's inside. As to the foodstuff in my freezer (which is exactly what I was thinking of when I posed the question), I freeze almost-full glass bottles of olive oil all the time and they don't burst, because the oil doesn't expand like water.

Nowhere on my packet of FP-100C (which you didn't read) does it say not to freeze the film. I am 80% sure it's a bad idea, but I am trying to get maximum life out of this film, so I am still keen to hear from anyone who actually knows the answer.

Thanks

[Helen Bach]

While discussing the cessation of production of FP-100C45 with a Fuji rep I asked about storage. He recommended the fridge, not the freezer, and storing flat (unlike Polaroid sheet film, which is best stored vertically, standing on the short side).

Best,
Helen

[Uri A]

Thank you very much Helen!

[BrianShaw]

(which you didn't read)...

...so I am still keen to hear from anyone who actually knows the answer.



Yes, Uri... I did read it. Sorry to hear you don't like my "tone" but ... :D

I have experience. I had some accidentally freeze. The back left corner of my fridge is colder htan the rest and stuff in that area tends to freeze. The pods do not survive freezing. :)

I have no idea what is on the box of Fuji... and you are correct that I never read the box you posess. I think that perhaps Fuji did an incomplete job of copying Polaroid if they forgot that warning. Did they also forget the "Store flat" warning that was on the Polaroid boxes? :p

[Uri A]

Yes they did. Anyway, let's all be friends now.

[BrianShaw]

being friends has never been the issue, but thanks anyway!

It is interesting to read the Fuji data sheets. They address frozen storage by ommission. All they do is say to store in refrigerator at temp below (I don't remember, something like 50 Deg F maybe) degrees. I don't have the data sheet at my disposal to verify. But they never say how much lower of a storage temp is OK.

[Kevin Crisp]

Last time I used Polaroid it clearly stated on the package that it must be protected from freezing. But experiment away and report your findings.

[Vaughn]

...(unlike Polaroid sheet film, which is best stored vertically, standing on the short side). Best, Helen

I have heard to store them flat -- I think from a Polaroid rep back in the 80's...but that was many dead brain cells ago!

And I have stored them flat since then -- some for years with no noticable effect. YMMD.

Vaughn

[Uri A]

Not to doubt Helen's account, but I must admit that I can't see the logic in storing them standing on the short side either.

[Helen Bach]

I stored my Polaroid sheet film flat until Tracy Storer (if I remember correctly) wrote about a problem after long term storage that I hadn't noticed (now that I look for it I can see it occasionally). Because the sheets are packed alternately there are two lines of pods and if stored flat there can be a tendency for streaks to occur where the pods are lying. Storing on the short end keeps the pods horizontal and they do not weigh on the sheets of film in between them.

[Uri A]

Huh. Interesting... but again: are we talking Polaroid Polaroid or Fuji Polaroid? No idea if they are constructed and/or packaged the same way or not, especially in different formats (single sheet, cassette, 4x5, 3 1/4)

[Helen Bach]

Found it: http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00MIeK?start=0

Only applies to sheet film packed the way Polaroid packed it, I guess, not to pack film where the same situation does not occur, I think, because all the pods are in roughly the same place away from the image area.

[Vaughn]

I stored my Polaroid sheet film flat until Tracy Storer (if I remember correctly) wrote about a problem after long term storage that I hadn't noticed (now that I look for it I can see it occasionally). Because the sheets are packed alternately there are two lines of pods and if stored flat there can be a tendency for streaks to occur where the pods are lying. Storing on the short end keeps the pods horizontal and they do not weigh on the sheets of film in between them.

Ah, comes the light of dawn! I have some old out-dated Type 69 that I play with occasionally -- there is a discolored band thru the middle of all of them -- just about the same size as a pod. Could easily be the problem you described -- I just checked a couple of envelopes and the band seems to line up with where a pod would rest. But it has not been a problem with the Type 55 (so far!).

Thanks for the heads up -- even if it is many years too late for my Type 69...oh well. I have five or so boxes of it. I will save the top couple of sheets for final prints -- perhaps they received less pressure. The strength of the band have not been not consistent though out the box...it gets worse as I work thru a box.

Vaughn

[Mark Sampson]

In any case, even if the pods don't rupture, freezing could damage the chemistry inside that pod... thus making a successful picture unlikely.

[BrianShaw]

Storing Polaroid on the side vs flat is a minority opinion. But it really doesn't matter anymore.

The Polaroid recommendation for storing flat never had to do with streaking... it had to do with chemistry settling unevenly in the pod.

[BrianShaw]

there is a discolored band thru the middle of all of them

Once a product as sensitive as Polaroid gets out of date the specs can't be counted on and anything could be. I have had problems storing Polaroid on the side and have had much better luck storing flat per Polaroid recommendation. I've also experienced the same discoloration with out-of-date Polaroid (like 2 years out of date) but it seems mostly to be a function of the reagent thickness rather than storage. I did not do scientific testing of that, but did enough "autopsies" to be convinced that when Polaroid said that was the problem they were correct. The reagent in the pod gets thicker and doesn't spread right. Since it isn't spreading right it doesn't get "mixed up" until the pull is partly done, hence discoloration and poor coverage. Most often there were areas where the coverage was incomplete. Is that true in your experience also?

[Helen Bach]

I'm not sure that I would call it on the 'side'. If anything I would call it on 'end', because as we all agree it is very important to keep the pods horizontal. In thirty years of using Polaroid and storing it flat, as recommended by Polaroid, I hadn't noticed the problem until Tracy mentioned it and I looked for it carefully. It can be quite subtle, but when I looked in the right place on some prints I saw uneven density that lined up with the pod position on the alternate sheet perfectly. It didn't look like the jagged streak problems I have seen from, presumably, poor chemical mixing/spread.

(Look, if we can't talk here about arcane, obsolescent s**t we have learned through painful experience over the past few decades, where can we talk about it?)

[BrianShaw]

Good point, Helen... maybe we are using words differently. By "flat" I meant on the wide part of the box, and "side" would be the narrow part.

p.s. We are in full agreement about yackking about the arcane and obsolete. In another ventrue I'm still working through a difference of opinion/expeience about stuff happening in 1811 or so. I just LOVE the arcane and obsolete!

[Vaughn]

Here is a quick scan of the typical problem. This was one of the worst ones. And the color is a bit off, too. On this one I tried to correct the color a bit with a standard yellow filter. The yellow was too strong so I made multiple exposures with the yellow filter only on one of them. Must have moved the camera slightly while removing the filter or re-cocking the shutter.

Interesting, I get some sort of blueish mark in the middle in the print -- you can't see it on the print itself. (I placed the print on different parts of the scanner bed, but still get the exact blue mark.)

Otherwise, I still get nice even coverage of the goop from the pod. Now my Type 55 I still have, out of a box of 20, I'll get two or three that has incomplete coverage (I have been solarizing the negs and don't really mind if the image is a bit rough or incomplete.

[BrianShaw]

Interesting. I can't find examples of what I experienced but it wasn't smack in the center like yours. That is not the pod location BTW. Pod location is outside the edge of the image mask in 4x5. My discoloration was at the beginning of the pull, and then it got better. That almost looks more like the package was bent during development and the pigment transfer was uneven across the frame. But if the package got ebent you probably would have remembered that. Thanks for the pic... very interesting.

[BrianShaw]

Gawd I miss Polaroid.

[BrianShaw]

...and don't really mind if the image is a bit rough or incomplete.

p.s. Several of my best Polaroid images (portraits) have incomplete parts due to bad pull or whatever. Since "it works" I call them artistic rendition rather than realism. :D

[Vaughn]

Interesting. I can't find examples of what I experienced but it wasn't smack in the center like yours. That is not the pod location BTW. Pod location is outside the edge of the image mask in 4x5. My discoloration was at the beginning of the pull, and then it got better. That almost looks more like the package was bent during development and the pigment transfer was uneven across the frame. But if the package got ebent you probably would have remembered that. Thanks for the pic... very interesting.

It is definitely the pod location when two sheets are place facing different directions (as put in the box by Polaroid). It is the pressure of the pod on the sheets above and below it that seems to be causing the problem.

[BrianShaw]

OK, I see what you mean. It has been a while for me, obviously. Sorry. I was a "power user" at one time... and that may be long enough ago that I should shut up!

[Vaughn]

Hey...no problem at all!

So one can see how storing the boxes upright on its short end would prevent this problem, yet keep the pod horizontal.

I think this is one of the most productive uses of the forum. The OP was about freezing Polaroid material. That was quickly answered, but the thread continued and I have learned something that one might consider "off topic" (tho still about Polaroid storage).

[BrianShaw]

Hey...no problem at all!

So one can see how storing the boxes upright on its short end would prevent this problem, yet keep the pod horizontal.

I think this is one of the most productive uses of the forum. The OP was about freezing Polaroid material. That was quickly answered, but the thread continued and I have learned something that one might consider "off topic" (tho still about Polaroid storage).

I'm still cogitating on that one, but timesharing with my paying job so I'm not doing either of them well. How can that be? Polaroid box on edge (thin side) makes the pods vertical. No?

I also like this forum the most of all. All forums seem to go through cycles, but thios one seems the most stable, intelligent, and focused. Well, except for how thread topics sometimes evolve. :)

[BrianShaw]

OH... I get it. Not on its side on the thin side... but on stood up on its end. What a dummy I am. How can I go back and delete some of my idiodic posts. I should have drawn a picture instead of thinking!!!! Duh.

[Vaughn]

I was wondering if I was going to have to take a photo of a polaroid box to show you! LOL!

I am fairly good a spacial thinking (thinking in 3D, so to speak), so I can twist and move objects relatively easy in my mind. Not something everyone is good at (and I am not saying that I am especially good at it, either).

[BrianShaw]

My brain is timesharing too much. (Hey... that sounds like a good and believeable excuse... don't you think?) I better log off and get my "real paying" job done... or it might stop being real and paying!

[Vaughn]

And I need to get dressed and get to work!

Vaughn

[Tim Povlick]

Thanks guys. Anyone actually tried it? Maybe I'll sacrifice a partial pack for an experiment ...

You know, this is a good idea, so I took the bait. An unopened pack of Fuji PF-100 (3x4) was frozen for 48 hours. After thawing it was exposed via a Polaroid 350 camera. No ill effects were seen. One complete neg / pos was pulled from the pack without going throw the rolls. The chemical pods looked fine, no evidence of expansion due to freezing. I am not sure I'm ready to make the leap and freeze some 4x5, but it's tempting.

Photo chemicals and films may come and go but we'll forever have our beloved Twinkies. :)

Regards,

Tim

[Uri A]

Excellent work Tim! Now we need to have the experiment peer reviewed of course :D