Epson 3880 for Piezography? Should I?

[Darin Boville]

I'm looking at the prices for doing Piezography and I'm tempted to give it a go....

The 3880 is 1150 minus $300 rebate. The inkjetmall inks are 20% this weekend. Hmmm.

But a few questions first...

1) Am I correct that the 3880 ink cartridges will fit and work in the 3800 and visa versa? Since I'll get a set of inks with a new 3880 this is key to the cost savings!

2) Is there an advantage to using one printer over the other for B&W?

3) I use Ilford Gold Silk. It seems my two ink choices are Selenium and Warm. How will these look on this paper? Tonal shift? Any surprises? Other paper recommendations along the same lines as the Ilford?

4) For those of you who switched to the Cone inks, are you happy? Anyone not happy?

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

The trouble is figuring out what inkset to buy, but that is based on what it will look like on particular papers. I would not buy an inkset based on the paper I liked for Epson ink prints. IMO you should flush your ideas from printing b&w epson and start fresh with Cone materials. If you had more time you could (and should) buy the sample kits-though the descriptions are pretty accurate you really need to see them to make a decision.

Personally I am heading toward the Gloss Selenium inks on Cone Number 5 paper-this is a combo that looks allot like an air dried F surface cold toned paper developed in a warm toned developer ie very very slightly warm toned.

[paulr]

I'm extremely happy with mine. I did all my printing with the now-defunct Piezotone ICC quatdtone inks. I don't have experience with the newer inks, but most people seem to think they're better.

The issue I have is really the same as with any high end inkjet printing. I tend to print a big project, and then do very little printing for many months. Inks are expensive and have a poor shelf life. But they're much more expensive if you buy in consumer quantities. So the trick is to find a sweet spot that's economical.

Printer quality also plays into this. Consumer grade printers are capable of producing high end results, but they don't last. Professional printers are last but are expensive ... and they have large ink resevoirs, which means you risk wasting a lot of ink and possibly clogging / killing your print heads if you don't print enough volume.

I haven't figured out the answer to all this ... it's probably an evolving one.

Kirk, have you been able to compare the colors of the various K6 and K7 inksets? I'd be looking for something similar to the old Warm Neutral piezotone set. A little cooler would be ok, but I wouldn't want anything warmer. I've always printed on PhotoRag. I would consider another paper if it meant greater dMax without other quality sacrifices.

[Kirk Gittings]

Paul. All I can suggest is to buy the test prints and see what compares to your old prints.

FWIW everyone there are some good deals on Cone inks today at InkJet Mall.

[Tyler Boley]

Kirk is correct, the various inksets on different papers need to be seen. Particularly the MPS sets, they have a unique hue on photo surfaces a bit different than on matte. I'd advise getting samples or even having them make a print. They have an on line smaller size print order system that's very affordable.
Kirk, I agree with you about the Type 5 paper, love it, it's an unsung underdog out there. Color looks great on it too, but I have to say the GO overprint brings it to life.

[Peter Langham]

Just to add a bit more confusion to the mix: Cone mentioned a new Piezography Pro 2 set for the 3800/3880 last summer. (check the Piezography blog) Have not heard anything about it since, but it is supposed to have the capability to install 2 sets of inks and split tone or blend to your hearts content. (you can check out the QTR split tone set up to begin to get some idea of the possibilities.)

[Darin Boville]

Hmmm. I'm hesitating. The printer deal comes and goes so what we're talking here is $150 off a $1500 purchase. Maybe not the right time to do this, maybe it needs more looking in to. Hmmmm.

--Darin

[Helen Bach]

Paul,

I have some of the Type 5 and Type 2 paper MPS sample prints from Inkjetmall at the studio in Tribeca (beside the Film Festival building) if you want to call by sometime. I'm thinking of getting a Piezography system again.

Best,
Helen

[paulr]

Thanks Helen. When I'm ready to put together a new piezo setup I'll send you a note.

[Brian K]

Darin why the interest in piezography? Are you just wanting to print B&W more accurately? There are some issues using the Cone inks. I had all sort of clogging issues and if you plan to use it on a printer still under warranty, especially if it's new, you will most likely void that warranty if there is a problem. Also forget about printing color out of that printer, so you'll need a second printer if you plan to do any color work.

If those issues present a real concern for you you might want to consider getting a really good rip software and using the stock epson inks. I use studio print 14 which is unfortunately a windows software (but parallels takes care of that for me) and I get dead neutral prints, if I so choose, without any metamerism. And I can still print color any time. I admit though it's a more costly solution as the software is not cheap.

[Tyler Boley]

Sorry Brian, this is incorrect information. The warranty can not legally be voided for this reason. Also, not sure what generation of Cone inks you experienced, but current products are remarkably problem free. I've had Piezotone and K7 sets in a 9600, a 7800, a 9880, and a little 1900, and I have far fewer clogging or nozzle performance issues with all of those than my 9800 or certainly my 9900 with OEM inks out of the box.
And I also use StudioPrint, for color, and to drive the B&W printers, including for B&W using the OEM inks and special setups. For me, The multi density K inksets result in prints with a unique beauty I can't otherwise achieve though.
Now, the question is... does everyone see that difference, respond to it, or need it? Admittedly, many don't.
Just as I needed to see the difference myself, between a Portriga and a Forte warm print, people should see these different processes for themselves.

[Kirk Gittings]

Tyler,

It is really dry here, but with the OM inks this is no problem, but I am wondering with the PZ inks. If you were to print sporadically like I do, would you set up flush carts, flush it and leave it until you print next time? I have a really busy time with my business in the fall for like 4 months and have no time to print. I'm worried about clogs.

[Peter De Smidt]

Kirk,

That's what I do. The expense of the extra set of cartridges is nothing compared to the wasted time and ink of trying to get a clogged printer going.

[Kirk Gittings]

Peter, How long are your breaks?

[Peter De Smidt]

Months. For me, BW printing is mostly a winter activity.

In the past, I tried to print weekly, or so, but I can't afford it. Even then I had problems with clogs.

[Tyler Boley]

I'd take Peter's advice or ask Dana at IJM, mine are not inactive for that long, and in Seattle humidity is generally printer friendly..
T

[Kirk Gittings]

Thanks all.

Peter you use a dedicated set of carts for that right? You wouldn't want to drain your ink carts into containers and refill them with cleaner I suppose.

[Peter De Smidt]

Thanks all.

Peter you use a dedicated set of carts for that right? You wouldn't want to drain your ink carts into containers and refill them with cleaner I suppose.

Yep, I used a dedicated set of cartridges. I have a 4880, and I bought two sets of funnel fill cartridges directly from a place in Hong Kong. They were much cheaper than buying here. They look like the same cartridges that various places sell. The downside, I suppose, is that if you get a bum cartridge, it'd be more of a pain to get a replacement than if you bought from a USA retailer.

For me, the cost of the xtra set of cartridges is cheap enough that I wouldn't want to waste time and ink refilling everything, but it could be done, I expect.

[Brian K]

Sorry Brian, this is incorrect information. The warranty can not legally be voided for this reason. Also, not sure what generation of Cone inks you experienced, but current products are remarkably problem free. I've had Piezotone and K7 sets in a 9600, a 7800, a 9880, and a little 1900, and I have far fewer clogging or nozzle performance issues with all of those than my 9800 or certainly my 9900 with OEM inks out of the box.
And I also use StudioPrint, for color, and to drive the B&W printers, including for B&W using the OEM inks and special setups. For me, The multi density K inksets result in prints with a unique beauty I can't otherwise achieve though.
Now, the question is... does everyone see that difference, respond to it, or need it? Admittedly, many don't.
Just as I needed to see the difference myself, between a Portriga and a Forte warm print, people should see these different processes for themselves.



Tyler, according to the Epson warranty, page 7, "What the warranty does not cover":

2) Any damage caused by using unsuitable inks or ink delivery systems in the printer.

3) Any damage caused by use of non-Epson inks, ink cartridges, or media.

http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pro3880/pro3880wa.pdf

Conversely one can argue the Magnussen-Moss warranty act can counter this, but if Epson determines that the damage was caused by third party inks then they have a case. But who wants to get into that sort of mess, and in the meantime you may be stuck with a broken printer that Epson won't fix unless you pay.

Besides my Epson 9900 I have an Epson 4000. I may re-try the cone inks in that. But I had a nightmare with them in a 1280.

[Tyler Boley]

Brian, I need to find the write up about this.. but I know it to be true.. first of all, non of the inks I've used have damaged any printers. I've had Epsons serviced that had Cone inks in them, the reasons for service had nothing to do with the ink. I'll find the info for you soon. The 1280 was a dye printer that was a PITA for all of us trying to use pigments in it. Also, I'm assuming that was Piezotones. While they've given me no trouble the current product line, the K7 inks, are more state of the art inks including delivery. Way less trouble than my Epsons as I said. But I'm not here to sell Cone inks, there's also Paul Roarke's systems, or Tom Mallonee's inks. I'm partial to Jon's though, probably obvious by now...
How's your 9900 been working in that regard? Mine's been a nightmare.. and Epson tech lived here for about a week...

[joncone@cone-editions.com]

Tyler, I can give a long reply based on facts...It's my ink so it should be my responsibility to respond.

The use of 3rd party inks does not void the warranty in the USA. First the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, and later the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act strengthened consumer rights to the point that Manufacturers can only threaten to but not actually withhold warranty repair.


The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (Public Law 93-637) is a U.S. Federal law that states that warrantors can not require that only brand name parts be used with any product, as some printer manufacturers imply. Legally, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is a consumer protection law that states that: "No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name” (15 U.S.C.A. 2302)

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act is very strong and the Manufacturer has to encounter a problem that their own consumable does not cause. The factor is that the consumable has to cause a problem that the use of the Manufacturer's brand does not. For example, printing pigmented Windex as an ink would eventually damage the copper inside the print head and that would not be warrantied because the consumable behaves in a way that the Manufacturer's does not. And this is why the Manufacturer uses the word "MAY VOID". But, if a print head malfunctions early and prints with banding, it would be covered under Epson inks or my inks. Epson has the right to install a set of Epson inks into the printer to perform a final test after head replacement. But, in the cases of most of my customers they have reported that the Epson techs reinstall the Cone inks. Our customers routinely receive warranty repair from Epson, even when the obviousness of having an all black Piezography ink set installed. I have witnessed repairs to Epson 9900s in our vicinity and the repair technician complimented our inks and did final testing with our inks.


Having said that, back in 2000 we did not make our own ink. Our supplier made an ink that did cause problems in foam filled carts for Epson 1280s. We replaced a lot of monies in those days, learned a lesson the hard way, and more importantly we learned not to depend upon others to make our inks. We began formulating our own inks for Epson later in 2002. I had formulated archival inks for IRIS Graphics printers from 1994 -1997. So we have a great deal of inkjet expertise. Our formulations are exclusive and are only sold by InkjetMall in USA. I resell my inks to others elsewhere in the world under by own brands and allow private label.

In 2005, when we developed a proprietary method to encapsulate pigment we were able to finally produce an ink that performs like the original. InkjetMall was able to get an insurance policy that would cover it's customer's equipment in the case that our products were found to damage the printer and the printer's warranty was voided as a result. We have never had to use this for reasons of ink. But, in 2007 we sold cartridges that did damage 12 large format printers. We repaired those printers without deductibles and made those customers whole. We also recalled or repaired the entire batch of LF cartridges we had sold. InkjetMall insurance is very comprehensive in regards to printer damage. Since the cartridge episode we have gained control over our cartridges. We still have the insurance policy in place but have not had an incident since 2007. We definitely stand behind our customers in ways no other 3rd party ink company can.

And of course I'm my own customer...Cone Editions has been using my inks in its Epson printers for a decade. I also produced all of the inks for the monumental Ashes and Snow exhibition prints. These 110" 12 ink Roland printers took 18 hours to produce each of the humongous photographs, and because of the hand made paper they were not able to utilize automatic head cleanings during the print run which is a testament in itself to the quality of my inks. Try that with Epson inks.... I was also the printmaker for the Ashes and Snow (http://www.ashesandsnow.com/en/vision/) exhibitions. Our expertise is not just in making inks but in using them. I'm a printmaker first and foremost, and I believe that this is why I make such high-standard inks.


regards,

Jon Cone

InkjetMall (http://shopping.netsuite.com/inkjetmall)
Piezography (http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/)
Cone Editions Press (http://cone-editions.com/)
Vermont PhotoInkjet (http://www.vermontphotoinkjet.com/)

[Brian K]

Tyler, I can give a long reply based on facts...It's my ink so it should be my responsibility to respond.

The use of 3rd party inks does not void the warranty in the USA. First the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, and later the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act strengthened consumer rights to the point that Manufacturers can only threaten to but not actually withhold warranty repair.


The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (Public Law 93-637) is a U.S. Federal law that states that warrantors can not require that only brand name parts be used with any product, as some printer manufacturers imply. Legally, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is a consumer protection law that states that: "No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name” (15 U.S.C.A. 2302)

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act is very strong and the Manufacturer has to encounter a problem that their own consumable does not cause. The factor is that the consumable has to cause a problem that the use of the Manufacturer's brand does not. For example, printing pigmented Windex as an ink would eventually damage the copper inside the print head and that would not be warrantied because the consumable behaves in a way that the Manufacturer's does not. And this is why the Manufacturer uses the word "MAY VOID". But, if a print head malfunctions early and prints with banding, it would be covered under Epson inks or my inks. Epson has the right to install a set of Epson inks into the printer to perform a final test after head replacement. But, in the cases of most of my customers they have reported that the Epson techs reinstall the Cone inks. Our customers routinely receive warranty repair from Epson, even when the obviousness of having an all black Piezography ink set installed. I have witnessed repairs to Epson 9900s in our vicinity and the repair technician complimented our inks and did final testing with our inks.


Having said that, back in 2000 we did not make our own ink. Our supplier made an ink that did cause problems in foam filled carts for Epson 1280s. We replaced a lot of monies in those days, learned a lesson the hard way, and more importantly we learned not to depend upon others to make our inks. We began formulating our own inks for Epson later in 2002. I had formulated archival inks for IRIS Graphics printers from 1994 -1997. So we have a great deal of inkjet expertise. Our formulations are exclusive and are only sold by InkjetMall in USA. I resell my inks to others elsewhere in the world under by own brands and allow private label.

In 2005, when we developed a proprietary method to encapsulate pigment we were able to finally produce an ink that performs like the original. InkjetMall was able to get an insurance policy that would cover it's customer's equipment in the case that our products were found to damage the printer and the printer's warranty was voided as a result. We have never had to use this for reasons of ink. But, in 2007 we sold cartridges that did damage 12 large format printers. We repaired those printers without deductibles and made those customers whole. We also recalled or repaired the entire batch of LF cartridges we had sold. InkjetMall insurance is very comprehensive in regards to printer damage. Since the cartridge episode we have gained control over our cartridges. We still have the insurance policy in place but have not had an incident since 2007. We definitely stand behind our customers in ways no other 3rd party ink company can.

And of course I'm my own customer...Cone Editions has been using my inks in its Epson printers for a decade. I also produced all of the inks for the monumental Ashes and Snow exhibition prints. These 110" 12 ink Roland printers took 18 hours to produce each of the humongous photographs, and because of the hand made paper they were not able to utilize automatic head cleanings during the print run which is a testament in itself to the quality of my inks. Try that with Epson inks.... I was also the printmaker for the Ashes and Snow (http://www.ashesandsnow.com/en/vision/) exhibitions. Our expertise is not just in making inks but in using them. I'm a printmaker first and foremost, and I believe that this is why I make such high-standard inks.


regards,

Jon Cone

InkjetMall (http://shopping.netsuite.com/inkjetmall)
Piezography (http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/)
Cone Editions Press (http://cone-editions.com/)
Vermont PhotoInkjet (http://www.vermontphotoinkjet.com/)

John, thanks for explaining in detail. I think you could understand my perspective based on Epson's own stated warranty and specific reference to third party inks. But if your products come with their own warranty or insurance against printer damage then I guess you it got it covered.

[welly]

Just bringing this thread up from the dead as I was going to post a message about the Cone inks. I don't shoot colour (and have no plans/desire to do either) so just using my Epson 3880 as a black and white printer is fine. And if later down the track I really want to shoot some colour, I'll outsource colour printing.

I've been really pleased with the quality of my prints that have been coming out with just the standard Epson inks and the standard drivers. I wonder if I can possibly improve my prints using QTR and then possibly the Cone inks? QTR seems like it might be a cheap "upgrade" for better b+w printing and then possibly the Cone inks later.

[mdm]

Welly, I have the Piezography carbon inkset in my 2880, I also have a 1430 with eboni 6. I did that because for some prints the Piezography carbon inkset is just not right and because I wanted to make my own profiles or linearise others profiles (not that you cant make your own with the piezography, but its hard to better the supplied profiles). I like both very much but I have to admit the Piezography inkset is much less trouble. I have printed wedges on a few different papers and read them, and find that the profiles just work, they are as linear as any I could make. They print beautiful highlights. If I were doing it again, I would put the Piezography digital negative sytem in my 2880 and use the 1430/eboni 6 for matte inkjets, but only because the negative profiles I make myself are always a work in progress and never quite make it to a perfect enough final version, just cant leave them alone. I find I print a lot of small digitals and scans on K7 carbon just because its easy and not too expensive to print on epson matte HW, and a few prints on Hahnmule Photo Rag or the canson papers. A carefully printed K7 carbon on HPR is a very hard print to better. To the extent that any other printing you do has to suddenly justify its use. My carbon transfer and salt prints now have to offer something that an inkjet cant, they have to be better.

[Peter Gomena]

Well, QTR is $50 shareware and you can use the inks you have now. No muss, no fuss.

I've been using QTR with Epson inks in my Epson 2200 for about 6 months now, using the supplied QTR profiles. My prints are leaps ahead of what they were before, and I'm satisfied for now. I know three other photographers who produce fine work on 3800s or 3880s with QTR and Epson inks.

Stepping up to a dedicated B&W printer is beyond my means. I've seen prints using Cone inks, and they're stunning. When my wallet is thicker, I might try a dedicated B&W setup, calibrate a RIP and go deluxe. One person I know is going to test a Cone system before long. I'll see how his images turn out before I consider moving to a more involved system.

Peter Gomena