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View Full Version : Market size of amateur large format photographers?



Frank Petronio
24-Sep-2003, 22:28
I'm doing some research. What do you think the size of the market is (in North America) for advanced amateur and fine art large format 4x5 photographers? The type of people who can afford to buy $1000 plus 4x5 field cameras like Technikas, Toyos, Canhams, Arcas and Ebonies. Let's not include the overlap from commercial photographers using studio cameras like Sinar Xs and P2s; hardcore ULF users; or all the fine people who get by cheaply with Graphics and such. In other words, how many people have the money and desire to buy a nice 4x5 field camera? Thank you.

David A. Goldfarb
25-Sep-2003, 06:11
Given how many people can afford current middle and top level SLRs and lenses (a Canon 10D body being $1500), I would say the number that can afford a new 4x5" camera is pretty large, and probably not closely related to the number that would actually purchase one.

Donald Miller
25-Sep-2003, 07:45
I am assuming that your enquiry is based in consideration of some aspect of building/marketing a camera. If that is the case then I think that David's reply is on target. If one were to consider going down that road then benefit would be afforded by studying the product line, market strategy, and business philosophy of Phillips, Canham, and Wisner.

Kevin Crisp
25-Sep-2003, 10:56
I don't think the actual numbers sold of field cameras is anywhere as high as one might think. Recent articles about the Wisner/Picker/Ritter dispute on the Wisner-designed Zone VI camera should give you some idea, as extensive information about orders and serial numbers is given. Even cameras which are, by outside and probably unimformed, perception very successful (and are perceived by their makers to be successful), don't sell in large numbers if you go by the serial numbers. In terms of what the market is, there just aren't large numbers of people who even know what they are (for starters) feel a need to do photographically what they can do with a view camera (get a big negative, move the plane of focus relative to the film, etc.) and have the patience to learn how to do it well and put up with the inconvenience of carrying the gear and setting it up. Also consider that the LF equipment tends to last a long, long time, so you as a manufacturer are faced with 60 year old Deardorffs and Masterviews which can compete with your product. You have to offer something new, a unique weight/price package, etc. to make it, and even then I would think selling 100 cameras a year in the early going would take some work.

tim o'brien
25-Sep-2003, 13:40
We ALL know how to make a million dollars in the large format business.





Start with 5 million.

I don't suspect there is ever going to be a great market for LF equipment, especially new. Most of us who shoot, shoot with what we have, can find, build from scratch. Sure, some of dream of a new Horseman or whatever but we will get by on our old orbits, speed graphics, hand me down three times Arca Swisses... When my achievement level reaches the point that a 40 year old Ektar or my 20 year old Fujinon lens won't do what I want it to do, I'll go looking for another upscale lens, and yes, it will probably be used.

There are some of us who can afford to buy new equipment, I see them in the better camera stores here in the bay area, but not like the hordes who buy all that 35mm, MF, and digital stuff.

Just my opinion of course.

tim in san jose

Bruce Watson
25-Sep-2003, 13:59
I've been interested in the same thing. I've asked that same question on various forums. Like here, the only replies I've seen have been anything but numbers. I'd help you if I could, but that information is apparently hard to come by, and I don't have it.

You might contact View Camera magazine. They might have a clue based on their circulation numbers. They might not want to share that information for free, however.

If you find out any useful information, please let us know.

Frank Petronio
25-Sep-2003, 14:58
The circulation of magazines is public knowledge (look in the annual statement.) Maybe a useful starting point would be how many large format photographers are viewing this forum?

Ted Harris
25-Sep-2003, 15:13
Frank if ya really want to do it here's how:



There are several ways you can attack the question and come up with a useful number. You are going to have to do the legwork yourself or hire someone to do it for you. Here are the steps I would take if I were doing this for a client:





1) Contact the manufacturers and/or distributors of field cameras in the US. Since it is a relatively small universe this should not be difficult and I assume you know who they are. Ask each of them to share sales numbers with you for a recent past year. Asking for current data could make some of them nervous. Even if you only get some of them to respond you will have a lot of what you need.
2) Supplement the information in 1 above with similar information from retailers who buy/import direct and you know are major players (e.g. Badger, Midwest and B&H).
3) Figure a way to appropriately discount the numbers to account to sales to professionals. You might be able to do that by getting information from PPA and/or other associations.
4) Get total subscription/sales information for View Camera Magazine and see how well that number tallies with your discounted number in 3 above. My guess is that if these two numbers are close then you have your answer or the ballpark for it anyway. Discussions I have had with Steve Simmons indicate that most of the readers of View Camera fit your category and the camera sales numbers just give you another checkpoint.





I really think that is all you need for a rough estimate. If I were going to get sophisticated then I would check sheet film sales, lens sales and even design a small scale sample survey to use with members of this and the other large format for a online. Finally I would develop a weighted scoring technique for all of the date. However, my gut tells me I would still come out with a number that is within 20% of the number in 4 above and that it would be a number in the thousands, no higher.

Mark Sampson
26-Sep-2003, 12:23
You also have to consider the lifespan of the existing gear. To speak for myself; I've been a large-format user for 23+ years. Professionally, my equipment has been supplied by my employer. (They did buy a new 4x5 several years ago.) Personally, in that time I've bought two new 4x5 field cameras. One is still mine and the first one sold to a friend. Neither camera is close to being worn out or obsolete, and both have earned their keep. I wouldn't mind a new camera, there are one or two that I'd like to use, but they wouldn't make better pictures by themselves; so I'll stick with my 11-year old workhorse. Not what the manufacturers want to hear! Even with the 'renaissance' of large-format photography since I've been involved, I think the market for any view camera today is quite small.

John Kasaian
26-Sep-2003, 12:32
Frank,

Going by how low my co-eds are wearing their jeans this term, I'd say foreget about market analysis. Just get Brittney Spears to pose with "X" camera and you'll be selling 'em like hot cakes!

Christopher Condit
26-Sep-2003, 16:44
I recently bought a Walker, and the serial number is 142. He's been making this model for 8 years. Sure, not the most popular brand in the world, but still, less than 2 a month? Gowland's website states that he's sold something like 1500 cameras (mostly 4x5 TLRs), but that's over 40 years, which only pushes him up into the 3/month range. There ain't many of us.

Perhaps Bob Salomon could give us some interesting numbers on Linhof, without giving away too many trade secrets? ;-)

I would have to disagree with TimO: most the LFers (amateurs like me) I know have reasonably new cameras, that they bought new. Many of those with older cameras also own newer cameras. It does seem to be a rich man's hobby, maybe because of the cost per shot.

CXC

Herb Cunningham
26-Sep-2003, 19:16
I have owned about 4 lf cameras in the last three years, now have an 80 year old Eastman, which is a lot of fun while Ron Wisner makes a new one. I expect the camera business is one of love not money

shawn kielty
27-Sep-2003, 06:24
If you were to call view camera magazine as an advertiser -- you might want to know how many readers you getting -- I am sure they will willingly tell you.

I'd be interested in seeing the numbers

Shawn

Frank Petronio
27-Sep-2003, 21:27
Thanks for your comments. I am considering getting more involved in the business and have been doing research. My thinking is that there are tens of thousands of photo school graduates from the 60s and 70s who never became professionals; now that they are nearing retirement age they may rediscover photography. I also think that the retiree and hobby market is much stronger than the commercial market at this point. The downside is that there is a tremendous amount of high quality used equipment on the market (I buy it myself.) The ironic thing is that a top quality precision Linhof monorail will sell for less than a wobbly third world wood and tin shoe box. And a $100 Graphic will often be quite good enough...

neil poulsen
28-Sep-2003, 09:07
Also, how many of us find a good deal? I own a camera and compendium lenshade that currently retails for about $2900. (The same model.) I paid $450 for it at a swap meet. Ditto on lenses.

Perhaps one can conclude that some of the market get's financed by people who spend a lot of money to give LF a try and then decide it's not for them.

Jim Rice
1-Oct-2003, 11:07
I bought my 4x5 Wisner tech about eight to ten years ago new. It is serial #120x, though i have no idea how long it had been on Del's shelf.

RichSBV
1-Oct-2003, 11:48
Sorry, but for some odd reason I just feel compelled to add some here.

Christopher: The people _you_ know own new cameras. To the group: It is very often taken for granted that people own new and/or extremely expensive used equipment.

I see it constantly is suggestions. Why not just buy this, it's only $900 and well worth it.... Or, it's only $13,000 and well worth it...

It's unfortunate. _Most_ of us do not own new equipment. I would even say that most of us see no need for new equipment. I own at least 10 Graflex cameras in 4x5 and 2 B&J in 8x10. The only lens I own that would even be considered decent in these forums is my Nikon 120/8. And the only reason I bought that (used) was because I couldn't find anything else that would do what I wanted and it was a decent price at the time. Everything else is at least 30 years old, some 100 years old.

It has looked to me for a long time that the "rich man's hobby" attitude has excluded a lot of people from participating. And there's an awful lot of us out here...

Again, sorry for the little rant...

On the other hand, if some company did produce a nice 4x5 or 8x10 that was _affordable_, I'd be real tempted to buy new too...

Mike Buehler
7-Jan-2004, 06:54
View camera's ad rate page list their circulation at 16,000

Jonathan Lee
7-Jan-2004, 08:06
The numbers must be small. I live in Ottawa, a Canadian city of ~700,00 people. There is not a single camera dealer in this city that stocks a new 4x5 camera. A few used ones for sale but no new ones. In Canada, population of ~30 million, I am aware of only one dealer (Vistek in Toronto) that has a new 4x5 camera in stock and that is a Sinar F1. In a country this size, there is no Ebony or Arca Swiss distributor because the market is too small.

Without any facts to back me up, I would guess that the total number of new view cameras sold worldwide would be somewhere in the low thousands annually.

Chet Kwapisinski
7-Jan-2004, 10:26
Jonathan---- check out: http://harrysproshop.com/ for new Wisners.

Cheers

Rory_3532
7-Jan-2004, 11:20
Jonathan,

It's true that Ottawa camera dealers are not exactly focused on large format. The professional market has evaporated. For example, Lee Valley Tools, once a significant local user of large format for product photograhy, now uses digital cameras to produce its catalogues. The amateur market seems to be quite small, although I've heard that there is some sort of large format club. While you're correct that Ottawa dealers don't carry large format cameras on the floor, they can get them. For example, Amplis Photo (www.amplis.com) represents Arca-Swiss in Canada and does stock their cameras.