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Jfnphotography
16-Oct-2011, 19:22
Can you use an enlarger bellows for a camera bellows?
Will an enlarger bellows sag if it's horizontal?
Thanks, Jacob

ic-racer
16-Oct-2011, 20:09
Will an enlarger bellows sag if it's horizontal?
Thanks, Jacob

This one sat in that position from 1988 to 2008 so yes they can sag. Now that I have had the enlarger vertical for a few years the bellows still has a little curve to it.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9688&d=1202220743

Joanna Carter
17-Oct-2011, 00:45
Even dedicated camera bellows sag.

IanG
17-Oct-2011, 05:00
Not all bellows sag, some it's insignificant others terrible. I used a Johnsons enlarger horizontally for years with no bellows say.

So it'll depend entirely on how the bellows are made.

Ian

E. von Hoegh
17-Oct-2011, 06:53
Can you use an enlarger bellows for a camera bellows?
Will an enlarger bellows sag if it's horizontal?
Thanks, Jacob

The only requirement is that they be light-tight. Check this by extending the bellows and placing a light source inside the bellows in a darkened room. If they look like a planetarium, you might not want to use them.

Any bellows can sag. You should see my 8x10.......:)

TheDeardorffGuy
17-Oct-2011, 19:44
Sometime around 1940 Merle Deardorff redesigned how bellows were made. The secret is in the spacing of the ribs and how the inner and outer liners adhere in that gap. The gap tapers a bit to provide some compression to force the bellow up. This was done on the side panels only. If this was a bellows for an 8x10 there could be 4 different width side ribs. The taper might be just a 1/16 inch. That was enough to force it up. Now was this done on every bellow? No. It is very time consuming to cut the ribs like that.
And there was a constant change of fabric. It was originally done for leather. A completely different weight rib was used for the Naugahyde bellow and for each bellow they made. Of the hundreds of Deardorffs I've restored I'm thinking less than 10percent were built this way. Cameras going to the government seem to have them and some special photographers got them. And they pinhole just like any other bellow.

GPS
17-Oct-2011, 22:55
Can you use an enlarger bellows for a camera bellows?
Will an enlarger bellows sag if it's horizontal?
Thanks, Jacob

The use depends on your camera (lens focal length you want it for) and the bellows material (thickness, flexibility). Sag? There is at least 100 ways how to easily deal with bellows sag.

Jfnphotography
18-Oct-2011, 05:50
I'm picking up an 8x10 enlarger for parts so I'm going to check the bellows and see if it will fit an 8x10 camera I just received. The 8x10 has a bag bellows on it now; looks home made and sag a lot. The camera is a B&J so I donít want to spend the money on a new bellows. The new bellows would cost more then what the camera is worth.

Thanks for all your help. Jacob

GPS
18-Oct-2011, 12:03
In all this possibly the biggest difference will be the respective length of the two bellows. The enlarger bellows could be shorter, it seems.

Bob Salomon - HP Marketing
18-Oct-2011, 13:16
In all this possibly the biggest difference will be the respective length of the two bellows. The enlarger bellows could be shorter, it seems.

Also in the ability to be able to allow full movements. Very few enlargers had any movement other then, perhaps, a tiltiting or/and sliding lens stage. Other then enlargers used for rectification printing.

GPS
18-Oct-2011, 13:33
Yup, that's what goes together with the length. But even so, seeing the poor beast it seems it'll be satisfied with whatever face lift...

IanG
18-Oct-2011, 13:35
Sometime around 1940 Merle Deardorff redesigned how bellows were made. The secret is in the spacing of the ribs and how the inner and outer liners adhere in that gap. The gap tapers a bit to provide some compression to force the bellow up. This was done on the side panels only. If this was a bellows for an 8x10 there could be 4 different width side ribs. The taper might be just a 1/16 inch. That was enough to force it up. Now was this done on every bellow? No. It is very time consuming to cut the ribs like that.
And there was a constant change of fabric. It was originally done for leather. A completely different weight rib was used for the Naugahyde bellow and for each bellow they made. Of the hundreds of Deardorffs I've restored I'm thinking less than 10percent were built this way. Cameras going to the government seem to have them and some special photographers got them. And they pinhole just like any other bellow.

Well my slightly older Agfa Ansco bellows have almost no sag and the same with some 100+ year old bellows on British field cameras.

I think the biggest surprise I've seen recently was the horrific sag of the bellows from one current US manufacturer.

Having made a few sets of bellows I have to agree 100% with your comments about the rib spacings.

Ian

TheDeardorffGuy
18-Oct-2011, 14:39
Well my slightly older Agfa Ansco bellows have almost no sag and the same with some 100+ year old bellows on British field cameras.

I think the biggest surprise I've seen recently was the horrific sag of the bellows from one current US manufacturer.

Having made a few sets of bellows I have to agree 100% with your comments about the rib spacings.

Ian

Not only that spacing but a good bond between the inner and outer liner. That bond pushed down with a tool really defines the "spring" to hold the bellows up. It is too bad that the manufacturers will not build like this. I passed this info on to many mfgrs. They know how. But it is really easy to build symetrical and add a sag clip.

IanG
18-Oct-2011, 15:00
Not only that spacing but a good bond between the inner and outer liner. That bond pushed down with a tool really defines the "spring" to hold the bellows up. It is too bad that the manufacturers will not build like this. I passed this info on to many mfgrs. They know how. But it is really easy to build symetrical and add a sag clip.

I I recieved sagging bellows on a new (and expensive) LF or ULF camera the maker would get it back and I'd want a refund or new bellows.

There's a lot of unwritten tips/secrets to making LF camera parts many are rather logical, others you pick up in passing.

I guess I was just lucky makling my own bellows to a tight tolerance which I've refined slightly.

Makes sense though

Ian