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Pawlowski6132
3-Oct-2011, 07:55
I'm embarking on a project to shoot the old churches of Detroit. I've never shot architecture before so...this will be something new.

I want to end up with 16x20 prints. My main decision at this point is what system/format to use:

1. Zone VI 4x5 with Super Angulon 90mm

or

2. Eastman 2d 8x10 with Anguon 165mm


Which would you choose and why.

ps, no front tilt on the Eastman.

E. von Hoegh
3-Oct-2011, 08:07
Zone VI. The 165 just covers 8x10, and may not give enough movement.You'd also need an 8x10 enlarger.

You may or may not need front tilt, but you almost certainly will need front rise.
I'd definitely go with the 4x5.

Mark Sampson
3-Oct-2011, 08:08
I've shot lots of architecture with a Z-VI 4x5. It has worked well, but you're going to need the bag bellows.

Pawlowski6132
3-Oct-2011, 08:12
Zone VI. The 165 just covers 8x10, and may not give enough movement.You'd also need an 8x10 enlarger.

You may or may not need front tilt, but you almost certainly will need front rise.
I'd definitely go with the 4x5.

I could crop the 8x10 shots if I had to I guess. I do have an 8x10 enlarger. The 2D has front rise.

Pawlowski6132
3-Oct-2011, 08:13
I've shot lots of architecture with a Z-VI 4x5. It has worked well, but you're going to need the bag bellows.

Really? You don't think I could get away w/o the bag? I don't have it and I certainly can't afford to spring for it. They're $200 to $300 right?

Kirk Gittings
3-Oct-2011, 08:19
You absolutely need the bag bellows on this camera to get full movements with a 90. Having shot hundreds of churches, most of which are tall vertical structures, I wouldn't work without bag bellows on this camera. This is especially true on interiors where you don't have the freedom to get far back from your subject.

E. von Hoegh
3-Oct-2011, 08:23
I could crop the 8x10 shots if I had to I guess. I do have an 8x10 enlarger. The 2D has front rise.

I've found that it is best to use the smallest format that gets the job done.

Pawlowski6132
3-Oct-2011, 08:25
You absolutely need the bag bellows on this camera to get full movements with a 90. Having shot hundreds of churches, most of which are tall vertical structures, I wouldn't work without bag bellows on this camera. This is especially true on interiors where you don't have the freedom to get far back from your subject.

Crap. So much for that project.

Ari
3-Oct-2011, 08:25
I'd use a 4x5, just for the relative compactness and lightness for working all day.
You will need a bag bellows, but the best way to see that is to try a shot of a church with the equipment you presently have.
If you're shooting older churches, they most likely will have tall steeples, and they will soon become your enemy without a lot of front rise.

E. von Hoegh
3-Oct-2011, 08:29
You know, if there is room at the scene you can move back and use a longer lens on either camera.There's no rule that says you HAVE to use a W.A. lens for architecture.

Just a thought.

Steve Hamley
3-Oct-2011, 08:43
You didn't say interiors or exteriors, but here's my experience shooting church exteriors.

I use an Ebony 5x7/4x5, and an Ebony and Wehman 8x10. You will need a bag bellows for interiors I expect, and you will need one for exteriors if you can't back off and use a longer lens. The attached "Shannondale" jpeg was done with the Ebony 8x10 and a 150mm Super Symmar XL with quite a bit of rise, probably close to 2" because I couldn't back up and a bag bellows was needed.

My most used lens shooting exteriors when space isn't a problem is 240mm on 8x10 and on 4x5 anywhere from the 110mm Suoer Symmar XL to a 210mm range lens. I did a similar shot of the same church with 4x5 and used an 80mm Super Symmar XL. I like the SS XL lenses when rise is needed because of the coverage.

The second "Riverdale" image was done with an Ebony 5x7 and 4x5 reducing back with a 110mm SS XL and about an inch and a quarter of rise. I didn't need a bag because of the bag section on the Ebony Universal bellows, but otherwise I would have because of the bellows compression.

Cheers, Steve

Noah A
3-Oct-2011, 10:34
I doubt front tilt will be of much help. Shooting in urban areas there are always vertical things all over the frame that make tilt less helpful.

You will, as others have suggested, need front rise. How much you'll need depends on how you shoot. I would imagine you'd need the bag bellows but don't be discouraged. Just go out and give it a shot. If you can shoot from elevated positions, with a longer lens or if you can work interesting foregrounds into your photos, perhaps you won't need as much rise.

I'd go for 4x5. The prints will look great at 16x20. IF you're new to this type of work you'll have less at risk with the smaller format and you'll be more free to experiment due to lower film costs. I assume you have other lenses besides the 90mm, and longer lenses can work well for exteriors, if you have the space. Since Detroit is not an extremely dense city, I assume you'll have some space to work. Your 165 would probably work in many circumstances.

If you shoot 4x5 the cost savings over 8x10 can help pay for a bag bellows!

Pawlowski6132
3-Oct-2011, 11:59
I don't even know if my camera has interchangeable bellows. I have the Wisner model. I'll have to check when I get home.

D. Bryant
4-Oct-2011, 06:15
I don't even know if my camera has interchangeable bellows. I have the Wisner model. I'll have to check when I get home.

All Wisner 4x5 cameras that I know of have interchangeable bellows. Of course find one might be difficult. I sold mine when I sold my Wisner.

But maybe not:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wisner-4-1-2x7-1-2-Bag-Bellows-Field-Camera-New-/120784982797?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item1c1f58930d#ht_3126wt_1397

keith english
4-Oct-2011, 06:39
Even with the split bag bellows on the Zone VI 4x5 I could never get it to move with the 90mm. It seems to be half bag and half bellows. I can't get even the slightest rise out of the 90. I wish I had a softer more bag like bellows. Might have to use the frame and make one.

Jim Jones
4-Oct-2011, 07:01
A WA lens mounted above the center of the lens board is the redneck's solution to no bag bellows or inadequate front rise. If the bellows sags into the view, a piece of cardboard between bellows and bed or rail might nudge it out of the way. The lens board can be inverted and front rise applied when no rise at all is needed. Temporary lens boards can usually be improvised out of a rich (or poor?) variety of material.

Kirk Gittings
4-Oct-2011, 08:15
Even with the split bag bellows on the Zone VI 4x5 I could never get it to move with the 90mm. It seems to be half bag and half bellows. I can't get even the slightest rise out of the 90. I wish I had a softer more bag like bellows. Might have to use the frame and make one.

Agreed. I had forgotten about that. I haven't owned my ZVI in some years. At one point I made my own BB using a set of frames and two layers of Black nylon-worked like a charm.

Mark Sampson
4-Oct-2011, 08:27
@ Keith and Kirk- that's odd. I am able to use the bag bellows on my (1992, post-Wisner) Z-VI for lenses between 75-135mm.
They aren't perfect- they aren't very flexible in cold weather, for one thing. And using the 75 is a pain, but that isn't the bag bellows' fault- that's due more to the camera's self-casing design. The Z-VI isn't the ideal camera for architecture, but I can't remember not being able to get the shot I wanted because the camera couldn't reach it.

Kirk Gittings
4-Oct-2011, 08:40
Mark, it never was my primary camera for architecture but my camera for personal projects in the field. I am talking about getting full movements on a 90 with a flat board and large coverage without binding up.

BTW, The homemade nylon bellows cost me about $5 to make, took all of an afternoon and allowed for totally free movements.

fuegocito
4-Oct-2011, 11:16
I used to have the Zone VI and shot lots of interiors with it, bag bellow is a must for any meaningful shift movements with the 90mm lens. Kirk's home brew solution sounds better than the Zone VI WA bellow which looks great but not that functional. I have used both nylon and the fake leather version.

Louie Powell
4-Oct-2011, 12:03
You absolutely need the bag bellows on this camera to get full movements with a 90. Having shot hundreds of churches, most of which are tall vertical structures, I wouldn't work without bag bellows on this camera. This is especially true on interiors where you don't have the freedom to get far back from your subject.

I have a Zone VI and I have to agree with Kirk - if you don't have a bag bellows, your range of options with the 90mm lens will be very limited.

A bag bellows doesn't have to be expensive. Yes, if you buy it from Calumet (assuming that they still have them in stock), they will cost several appendages. But I made my own using small bits of hard maple to construct the frame, and with a combination of vinyl fake leather as an outer layer, and black felt as an inner layer. I probably spent $20 at the fabric store (and ended up with a lot of left over material).

ic-racer
4-Oct-2011, 18:04
I could crop the 8x10 shots if I had to I guess. I do have an 8x10 enlarger. The 2D has front rise.

You might be better off to just tip the camera upward and correct the convergence on the baseboard.

I'd plan on using both cameras, depending on the situation. Why limit yourself.

mikebarger
4-Oct-2011, 18:32
You might watch Ebay for a zone VI bellows. I got one with a cracked rear frame for $50 there. While it's floppy out of the camera, it works fine when in the camera.

Mike

neil poulsen
4-Oct-2011, 18:42
I don't know too much about Wisner cameras. But, I've seen Wisner bag bellows that are red inside. I would avoid one of these bellows for one that's black inside.

D. Bryant
4-Oct-2011, 18:44
Agreed. I had forgotten about that. I haven't owned my ZVI in some years. At one point I made my own BB using a set of frames and two layers of Black nylon-worked like a charm.

Well FWIW, I never used my bag bellows with my 90mm S.A. with my Wisner Traditional. I was able to get the maximum front rise with the standard bellows. For focal lengths shorter than 90mm the bag bellows was used. For 90s with more coverage this may not be case.

So I would advise Joe to go out and shoot to see how his setup works now before spending money on the BB.

John Kasaian
4-Oct-2011, 22:57
Color or B&W? I can't even imagine the cost of an 8x10 project with color film!
I've been doing just fine with 8x10 B&W using a 250mm/10" Kodak WF Ektar on churches. IMHO, if it calls for color stick with 4x5.

Pawlowski6132
5-Oct-2011, 05:52
Color or B&W? I can't even imagine the cost of an 8x10 project with color film!
I've been doing just fine with 8x10 B&W using a 250mm/10" Kodak WF Ektar on churches. IMHO, if it calls for color stick with 4x5.

All Black and White.

Someone posted a link to a Wisner BB on Ebay. I do have the Wisner made Zone VI so, I'll measure tonight to see if this fits. I might give it a shot. It's pretty inexpensive so, not much of a gamble here.

I do like the idea of shooting both camera's where I am able to. However, I am in Detroit and like the idea of being able to pick up and go quickly if necessary.

My lensboard for my 90 comes this week. I'll mount it and take some test shots with the regular bellows too.

MDR
5-Oct-2011, 06:45
Don't forget to take a longer focal length with you, sometimes the most beautiful partsof a church is not the obvious huge space but some small detail on the ceiling like a gothic beams etc... Take a look at Frederick H. Evans Chuch photographs he often used longer lenses to great effect.

Good luck

Dominik

Pawlowski6132
5-Oct-2011, 06:50
Don't forget to take a longer focal length with you, sometimes the most beautiful partsof a church is not the obvious huge space but some small detail on the ceiling like a gothic beams etc... Take a look at Frederick H. Evans Chuch photographs he often used longer lenses to great effect.

Good luck

Dominik

Yes. Good point. I will take some longer lenses but, at this point. All my shots will be exterior. I don't have the chops for interior architecture. I'm not even sure about exterior but, we'll see.

Paul Fitzgerald
5-Oct-2011, 08:31
" At one point I made my own BB using a set of frames and two layers of Black nylon-worked like a charm."

"But I made my own using small bits of hard maple to construct the frame, and with a combination of vinyl fake leather as an outer layer, and black felt as an inner layer."

You could just go to Walmart and buy a yard (36 x 54") of Pro-Tuff outdoor fabric for $5.00. Absolutely perfect for bag bellows or large bellows, too stiff for small bellows. Very pretty black canvas texture on the outside, the first bolt was completely flat black inside, the second bolt has a slight sheen to it, both are completely light-tight and will outlast the cameras. GREAT stuff for bellows, works well with flammable or non-flammable Weldwood contact cement. Practice on the scrapes first.

Yes, you can google "Pro-Tuff outdoor fabric" and buy online.

tgtaylor
5-Oct-2011, 09:27
I'm not familiar with Zone VI cameras but did notice that Keh has a ZONE VI CLASSIC FIELD BAG BELLOWS in stock for $84 and a WISTA M BAG BELLOWS for $31. http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Large-Format/system-Large-Format/category-Bellows?s=1&bcode=LF&ccode=19&cc=79048&r=WG&f

If your project will be extensive one, then you might consider acquiring a camera that is able to handle all situations. A Toyo/Omega 45C is able to deliver all the movements you could possibly need (e.g., 120mm rise on both stardards) and they are very inexpensive in todays market. It's a very robust camera that's light (9lbs) and quickly disassembles into 3 pieces (flat standards and bellows, rail and tripod block) permitting it to be backpacked. Add a Sanford & Davis tripod (~$40 new) and you will be able to photograph any interior with comfort and ease.

Thomas