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View Full Version : I'm tempted!!! - How good is this deal?



draebyllek
27-Sep-2011, 12:02
I've already got a Cambo SC with a couple of lenses, but I want a field camera and not a monorail. What say you all?

For Sale $3,600 In Like New Condition

Ebony SV45U2 With Assymtrical Tilts with:
Schneider 210 APO Symmar 1:5.6/210 Ser.# 14343182
Schneider Super Angulon 1:5.6/90 Ser # 14409638
Fujinon T 1:8/300 Ser # 703627
Caltar II-N 1:5.6?150 Ser. # 10541598

Fuji Quickload Holder
Polaroid Holder 545i
10 4X5 film Holders
Ebony Focusing Cloth
Ebony Lens Shade Clip
Toyo Lupe
Changing Bag

cyrus
27-Sep-2011, 12:18
The only thing you're really paying for here is the Ebony brand though the lenses are nice. So how badly do you specifically want an Ebony?

Steve Hamley
27-Sep-2011, 12:19
It's a decent deal if as described; the camera is over $4K new and usually sells for $2,500-$2,600 in good used shape, so you have a grand in everything else.

I doubt you'd do much better than break even if you bought it and parted it out, but buying the kit together is nice if you're wanting an outfit.

The camera has plenty of bellows for a regular 300mm, so the telephoto doesn't quite make sense to me.

Cheers, Steve

sepstein17
27-Sep-2011, 12:38
It's all about wants and not needs. I want a Deardorff 5x7-- willing to pay the price when less expensive 5x7s are available but that's what I want. Like Cyrus penned -- is it a field camera or an Ebony you want? It's all in satisfying your heirarchies of wants vs. needs...

Greg Lockrey
27-Sep-2011, 12:38
Where were you 2 months ago?

Jim Galli
27-Sep-2011, 13:08
Looks like a great deal to me. The worst you could possibly do is piece it out and re-sell and probably make a handsome profit. And, typically in a free economy, there's a reason why a "big name" is a big name, and why elegant things demand more money. Arguably you can make the same picture with a Burke & James gray battleship and a 203 f7.7 Optar. You can drive down the road in a YUGO too.

Steve Hamley
27-Sep-2011, 16:19
I might add that I have an Ebony SV45U, and it is my main 4x5 camera. I've carried it all over the southern Appalachians for years.

It's true you can make the same image with cheaper cameras, but the Ebony "disappears" to me when using it. I'm not thinking about the camera. All the controls are easily distinguishable by feel under the dark cloth.

Asymmetric movements are nice if you use rear movements, which I do especially doing landscape, but you can set the back at the same angle by iteration (slower) of a symmetric back.

But, if you want a field camera, Ebonys are the king of them.

Cheers, Steve

r.e.
27-Sep-2011, 17:29
If you already own a 4x5 camera and two lenses, and presumably various accessories, there are only two questions:

1. How badly do you want an Ebony, which Steve Hamly says is worth $2,500-$2,600 used.

2. Is the additional gear worth $1,000 to you and what are you going to do with the duplicate gear acquired as a result of this purchase?

cyrus
27-Sep-2011, 18:18
But really, is an Ebony THAT much better than a Toyo?

ki6mf
27-Sep-2011, 18:29
or a Shen Hao at $700?

Jim Galli
27-Sep-2011, 18:32
But really, is an Ebony THAT much better than a Toyo?


or a Shen Hao at $700?

Reverse snobbery? Bad because it's expensive and fine?

Own no stock in Ebony, and cannot have one, just being devils advocate. I have a $600 Chamonix.

Steve Hamley
27-Sep-2011, 18:47
There is a lot of reverse snobbery because of the price of the Ebony.

It is a very fine field camera. If you want a flat bed wooden field camera, I'll challenge anyone to propose a better one.

Cheers, Steve

Frank Petronio
27-Sep-2011, 19:11
Get an Arca or Technikardan and have the functionality of a monorail with the compactness of a field camera. And they are made of metal instead of rare woods.

Why buy the other stuff you don't need?

Steve Hamley
27-Sep-2011, 19:34
Disagree with Frank. Rarely.

Do the math; I did.An Arca that does the same thing as a SV45U weighs more , cost more and is more bulky.

Take the specs for a SV45U and replicate it in the Arca system. You'll be underwhelmed.

Cheers, Steve

Ivan J. Eberle
27-Sep-2011, 19:36
I'm in Frank's corner here with metal v. wood cameras. My oh my, those Ebony's are pretty alright, and have some neat features like the little mirror over the bubble level. But my ultimate concern is this: can I use a camera in the best available light conditions, e.g. storm clearing light-- or the potentially deluge a few seconds later? Leaves out most of the wooden fields, for my uses.

Robert Jonathan
27-Sep-2011, 19:39
A Toyo 45AII is better and cheaper than all of the cameras mentioned so far.

It's made of metal, more precise, and more stable.

So go ahead, buy that Ebony if you want...

Steve Hamley
27-Sep-2011, 19:40
Did I say costs more?

Cheers, Steve

Frank Petronio
27-Sep-2011, 20:09
You see good Technikardans go for $1500, more for the later S-model. Arca F-Classics, especially with the larger 171 lensboard are in the same range. When somebody goes through some major life change, like death or taxes, their F-Orbix jobs really sell in the $3000 range, not much more I bet. For that matter, an older Arca Discovery is a heck of a good camera and those sometimes go for peanuts, like $900.

To me the Sinar Norma, Linhof monorails, and Arca F-line are the best view cameras ever made. I think it's amazing they aren't valued higher, they are so much more usable and solid than other cameras.

Two23
27-Sep-2011, 20:16
I love field cameras. I've looked at the same cameras mentioned here. I just couldn't justify an Ebony, so I bought a Chamonix. I've been very happy with it. I had a Shen Hao before that and it was very nice for the money.


Kent in SD

Steve Hamley
27-Sep-2011, 23:12
Agree with Frank, again. But there's a reason most of the cameras he references are called studio cameras. Field cameras are a different animal.

Once again, do the math - for a field camera. See what an Arca, Linhof, or Sinar camera that duplicates the Ebony (especially in mahogany) capabilities weighs, costs, and the number of components.

Cheers, Steve

O.K. used studio cameras are dirt cheap.

Lachlan 717
28-Sep-2011, 00:08
There is a lot of reverse snobbery because of the price of the Ebony.

It is a very fine field camera. If you want a flat bed wooden field camera, I'll challenge anyone to propose a better one.

Cheers, Steve

Hard to imagine how any decent shots were taken before the first Ebony was made...

Steve Hamley
28-Sep-2011, 05:00
Yup, and a Nue-view is just as good as a Linhof ...

Cheers, Steve

ImSoNegative
28-Sep-2011, 05:54
Yup, and a Nue-view is just as good as a Linhof ...

Cheers, Steve

:D i had me one of those nue-view 4x5 several years ago, damn what a camera, dropped off a rock, it fell hmm 8 feet onto another rock, only thing hurt was the lens, and the GG, it had a leather bellows too. i think i still have that thing around here some where. i have had several cameras since then, my 4x5 now is a shen hao ptb, weighs just under 3 pounds, a bit fussy to operate at first until you get used to it but all around a decent one, i wouldnt want to drop it 8 feet though, but you can hike forever with it. i have never used an ebony or even seen one in person, they look like fine cameras though.

cyrus
28-Sep-2011, 08:14
There is a lot of reverse snobbery because of the price of the Ebony.

It is a very fine field camera. If you want a flat bed wooden field camera, I'll challenge anyone to propose a better one.

Cheers, Steve

No doubt it is a great camera - the question is, is that "betterness" in comparison to other cameras proportional to the significant price difference. In other words, assuming that a Shen Hao is $600, and this ebony is $2600, then what is it about the Ebony that is particularly worth the $2000 difference to you?

Jim Galli
28-Sep-2011, 08:19
No doubt it is a great camera - the question is, is that "betterness" in comparison to other cameras proportional to the significant price difference. In other words, assuming that a Shen Hao is $600, and this ebony is $2600, then what is it about the Ebony that is particularly worth the $2000 difference?

This seems like such an obvious question. How long would they be in business if people did not buy their product at their required price? Economics 101 in a free trade society. Why is this concept so difficult.

cyrus
28-Sep-2011, 08:24
This seems like such an obvious question. How long would they be in business if people did not buy their product at their required price? Economics 101 in a free trade society. Why is this concept so difficult.

YEs, I know. That's why I didn't say "Don't buy it" or "Buy it" I just said mind what you're actually paying for & make sure it is really worth it to you. People buy things for a variety of reasons, not all of them entirely rational or logical, and brand-loyalty and status is amongst them. This is a personal decision. No judgments on my part - I do it too.
(PS: is ebony still in business?)

Jim Galli
28-Sep-2011, 08:31
YEs, I know. That's why I didn't say "Don't buy it" or "Buy it" I just said mind what you're actually paying for & make sure it is really worth it to you. People buy things for a variety of reasons, not all of them entirely rational or logical, and brand-loyalty and status is amongst them. This is a personal decision. No judgments on my part - I do it too.
(PS: is ebony still in business?)

I don't dis-agree. I think there is a market for Doctors Lawyers and Indian Chiefs who simply go to the web and type in "which one is the best ~ most expensive, that's all the research I'm willing to do, get it for me."

I'd also agree that regular folk who will spend some time doing good research may be able to get a little more bang for their buck.

In this case though you could come close to selling off the lenses and having the camera for free. For some folks, that whole idea reeks of disaster. For others, like me obviously, that's my modus operandi. I'm currently enjoying a couple of Pinkham and Smith lenses I effectually paid nothing for.

Bad Jim! Bad Jim! You CAPITALIST!

Frank Petronio
28-Sep-2011, 08:38
I only see $1200 to $1500 of lenses there... the other accessories are nice to have but not worth more than $350 on a good day, plus the clip is dedicated to the Ebony so you'd want to keep it. So I don't see how you'd get anything for free in this deal?

And those prices are optimistic, sold to good, safe people in clean-easy transactions. Not always as simple as it sounds.

Truth is that I like the quality and looks of the Ebony too. I just don't think they are worth as much as a premium as other people do so I wouldn't likely buy one unless it was an amazing deal.

That $1000 Techikardan was a deal, as were the $600 Toyo and Wista field cameras, the $1000 older 8x10 Arca, that $1000 5x7 Sinar Norma, the numerous $200-$300 monorails... those are the deals I've seen here.

cyrus
28-Sep-2011, 08:58
I was under the impression that the OP wanted to keep the whole package.

draebyllek
28-Sep-2011, 09:03
Great responses, thanks. As for my own 'duplicate' equipment, it would be sold, except for lenses. I'm not really interested in collect LF cameras, just using one once in a while.

I may have been a bit impetuous in thinking about owning an Ebony. My last gf said that one thing she likes about me is that I have an eye for nice stuff; I don't like cheaply made stuff, that's true, but buying an Ebony would impede my buying Brett Weston photographs for a while :) so I'm interested in other field camera options.

At the center of this, I guess it really breaks down into owning a field cam instead of a monorail. So, Toyo and Shen Hao have been mentioned; I'll look into those. 4x5 is all I'm interested in but if the camera has lots of bells-n-whistles I'm interested in knowing all of that. Sturdy construction/workmanship matters as does having nice options.

I'm more settled down about the Ebony now - but that doesn't mean I won't be looking at it at our club's picnic. :)

cyrus
28-Sep-2011, 09:12
Ebony cameras. They're gorgeous cameras, no doubt. Perfectly valid reason to be sorely tempted.

Lenny Eiger
28-Sep-2011, 09:38
I have an Ebony, an SVTI. It is a fabulous camera. Working with this camera, what I can say is that its like butter. You put your hands on the dials where you expect them to be and there they are. Exquisite workmanship. If you love this format, go ahead.

Lenny

Steve Hamley
28-Sep-2011, 09:47
Hey Kelly,

I see that you will have a chance to see the camera in person which is always good. BTW, I'm in Knoxville, so if you come this way don't hesitate to e-mail. I talk with Chris Holden quite a bit, but we haven't actually crossed paths yet.

I did have a 5x7 Shen Hao which was a copy of an Ebony SV57 and it was an excellent camera, I liked it a lot. Not the build quality of the Ebony, but quite good. Mine had the "rubber bands" on the knobs, and eventually those would go bad and have to be replaced. The knobs were not usable without them, and that's about the only gripe I had with it. It was in walnut and quite pretty.

Cheers, Steve

draebyllek
28-Sep-2011, 10:49
Hey Kelly,

I see that you will have a chance to see the camera in person which is always good. BTW, I'm in Knoxville, so if you come this way don't hesitate to e-mail. I talk with Chris Holden quite a bit, but we haven't actually crossed paths yet.

Cheers, Steve

Ditto if you come to Nashville, Steve. I've thought about trying to get a Nashville-area LF club together. I know at least three others who have them. Usually I have ideas and they always seem to be the ones no one is interested in except myself. Maybe a TN and surrounding area club is a better idea.

ic-racer
28-Sep-2011, 11:00
The Ebony has been addressed, but my concern is spending that much money on lenses that someone else choose. That is to say that for $3600 I'd be choosing a different set of lenses. Having an "all-in-one" package is good at the introductory price level for the beginner. Most people that are going to be spending many thousands of dollars on an Ebony view cameras are going to be pretty particular about lens selection and may want something different than what is in that lens package.

rdenney
28-Sep-2011, 12:16
:D i had me one of those nue-view 4x5 several years ago, damn what a camera, dropped off a rock, it fell hmm 8 feet onto another rock...

I agree that a New-View is only really useful for breaking rocks.

Rick "happy to be a former owner" Denney

p.s., it seems to me that metal (and modular) monorail cameras emerged not for studio use but for field use where the precision, flexibility, and modularity of traditional wooden flat-bed cameras were deemed insufficient. The as a result of the subsequent domination of metal monorails in the market, field cameras improved to eventually become competitive again. People like them for all sorts of reasons, but in my view they are harder to use and less durable. Maybe if I owned one I would see the light. But seeing what I can do with a lowly Sinar F-series or Cambo SC, which in todays market cost some sub-1 fraction of what a Chinese field camera costs, I keep talking myself out of the experiment.

Steve Hamley
28-Sep-2011, 12:40
Kelly,

Maybe a quarterly get together on the plateau? Lots of good stuff there, and half way in between.

I'm also doing a Victorian-era church portfolio, so keep your eyes open!

Cheers, Steve

draebyllek
29-Sep-2011, 07:56
Kelly,

Maybe a quarterly get together on the plateau? Lots of good stuff there, and half way in between.

I'm also doing a Victorian-era church portfolio, so keep your eyes open!

Cheers, Steve

Do you have any of your work online or small jpgs you can send? I don't know what a Victorian church looks like. Also, tell me about where you would meet on the plateau.

Steve Hamley
29-Sep-2011, 13:53
I'll post some here, nothing on-line yet. I haven't really thought about a good central location. Crossville or Cookeville are good central locations with good lodging and food provisions, and of course Fall Creek Falls State Park comes to mind with plenty of photo ops right there.

Images attached.

Cheers, Steve

ImSoNegative
29-Sep-2011, 22:46
for some reason i was thinking of this thread today, i thought with all the good deals on 4x5 field cameras why would someone spend all that extra money on an ebony? this is what came to mind. about a year ago a friend and i was sitting in front of this service station waiting on the mechanic to finish up a bit of routine maintenance on my car, when IT pulled up to the gas pumps, i have never seen a car like this, i have heard of them but living in the mountains of north georgia it is a rare occurance to see a work of art with wheels such as this. A brand new Bentley with the sticker still on the window, i wanted to looks so bad at the price but i just stayed where i was at, I know these cars go well over 100,000 dollars, we sat there and chit chatted pretending not to be impressed, both of us glaring at the car out of the corner of our eyes, after the fellow drove off, i said, " why in the world would a guy want to spend that kind of money for a car?" my friend simply said "because he can". Hmmm "good enough"

Steve Hamley
30-Sep-2011, 01:19
What Lenny said in post 32.

BTW, you could say the same thing as above about Arca, Sinar, and Linhof, but no one ever seems to.

Cheers, Steve

rdenney
30-Sep-2011, 06:28
...my friend simply said "because he can". Hmmm "good enough"

Yes, the only justification we need to make any purchase is that we have the money and we want it.

But that is a different question than "is it a good deal?"

Rick "who has bought things in the past that were not good deals and never regretted it" Denney