Piezography printing on EPSON 4800?

[photobymike]

Is there anybody that is using Jon Cone's Piezography ink on there Epson printer?
How hard is it to convert to Piezography ink?
How much better is the prints with Piezography, than the Epson K3 system?
Is there another system for printing Monochrome on Epson wide printers 3800 4800 and bigger?
Should i buy a new printer maybe? Is there an Epson printer that works well with Piezography?... i am thinking About r2880 Epson.

This will be a big financial decision for me. So any experience will be very helpful
thanks michael


http://www.mikepic.com

[Kirk Gittings]

I've used it on a 3800 and a 7800. Gradation and sharpness is better with Piezography-though it will depend on the micro detail and tonality of a print to really notice it. Changing ink tone will be more of a hassle as you will have to try different media and or buy some different inks. Permanence is better with some Cone inks-like the pure carbon sepia ink set.

[Lenny Eiger]

Is there anybody that is using Jon Cone's Piezography ink on there Epson printer?

Yes, there are many. There is a group on yahoo called piezography3000 you may want to ask these questions at. Jon Cone also listens in and is usually very helpful.


How hard is it to convert to Piezography ink?

You clear out the color ink with some flushing cartridges and then load in the new ink. Very easy.



How much better is the prints with Piezography, than the Epson K3 system?

This is one of those questions that can start a war over here. It is my opinion that there is a substantial difference. It all depends on what you are looking for. If the differences that the b&w ink afford you are the kind of differences you want to see in your print, then its worth it. There is much more subtlety with the Cone inkset than with using color ink. Not everyone that prints in b&w is after subtlety. So, there are those that swear by it and others that think its meaningless. I've spent a fortune in ink and time developing my own mix of Cone's inks. It just depends on what you want your prints to look like...[/QUOTE]



Is there another system for printing Monochrome on Epson wide printers 3800 4800 and bigger?

Yes, MIS has another strategy. I don't like it as much. Legion used to do something as well. Cone is the one that has really done the research, and worked with everyone to make it better and better.



Should i buy a new printer maybe? Is there an Epson printer that works well with Piezography?... i am thinking About r2880 Epson.

This is a question for Cone.... or someone else on that other list... I don't have a good answer for you.

Best of luck.

Lenny

[Pete Suttner]

I'm glad someone else asked these questions, I've been thinking about converting my 3800 for a while now. A local source said K3 inks are as good for tonal gradations but that is one man's opinion. I've seen some awesome prints from Cone ink sets from a highly skilled printer. It will be interesting to follow this thread. Please more opinions!

Pete

[photobymike]

I have asked Jon a lot of questions... i would prefer peoples opinions that dont have a dollar to be made... Also despite the differences, The LF contributors are the most knowledgeable photographers on any board. There are some real expert super stars of photography here. I have learned a lot about my art from everybody that contributes.

Lenny: i am interested in any opinions.

Kirk: There is only 3 types of paper i use.... Ilford Pearl and Glossy, And Moab Entrada when i want to go thru the hassle of switching carts.... I have spent a lot time and money "learning" these papers. Any suggestions on paper?

[Kirk Gittings]

Ilford Pearl and Glossy use the glossy inks and the Entrada is mat right? Two different ink sets. The first thing you need to do is decide on mat or glossy inksets. I don't have any experience with the gloss ink set, but I have been tempted by the deeper DMax

[Peter De Smidt]

I've seen really good prints from a number of systems, including Epson K3, Piezography, MIS Eboni inksets.... They have some different qualities, but a serious worker can make very good prints with any of them, although one set might fit better with a specific printer's goals.

There are lots of things to consider, such as matte or glossy, image tone, permanence, consistency, bronzing, gloss uniformity, use of glop, ease of use, pigment settling, one or two pass, just to name a few. In addition, what's ideal in a printer with 2 pico liter drop sizes might not be what's ideal in one of the bigger printers with bigger drop sizes.

Regarding permanence, the best info is at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/
To summarize, pure carbon inksets, such as Eboni-6 or Cone's Sepia Piezography set are the longest lasting. These are quite warm on most papers. Neutralized carbon pigments can also be very good, such as HP PK or Cone's neutralish inksets, although they aren't as long lasting has pure carbon. The more color you use to get the image tone you'd like, the more color shifts you'll have down the road, but the road might be long enough that it isn't important for you.

I've used Piezography on matte papers, and it's got a lot of good attributes. In addition, Mr. Cone is very helpful and responsive.

Paul Roark has also done a lot of work on black and white inksets. See:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/

With both of these, you'll see people complaining about some of the inksets used years ago. It doesn't mean those issues still apply.

Glossy prints are more demanding than matte prints, since with glossy prints you have to deal with bronzing, metamerism, roller marks... Some systems will require you to spray the print with something like Print Shield, or use glop (gloss optimizer), perhaps with a second pass. If you know that you're not willing to spray or coat prints, than that rules out some options.

You could use your 4800 with funnel fill cartridges, using MIS PK for the black and dilutions of HP PK in MIS Glop for the lighter tones. This would give very neutral tones on a number of papers. YOu could include a MIS glossy LK and LLK to make the image warmer, if needed. If you prefer warmer prints, then you could use an approach using MIS PK inks and some extra dilutions. Either approach requires using QTR for the print driver. This is a fairly labor intensive approach. If you don't want to do that, strongly consider Cone's glossy inkset. It's more of a turnkey solution, but it is more limited in some ways. I believe it requires a second pass with glop, and you change image tone by changing papers.

[joncone@cone-editions.com]

I won't talk about the merits of Piezography over other systems as I believe that the results speak for themselves...and you would prefer to have the opinions of users rather than the product's developer.

But, I did want to mention that I am developing new Piezography systems which will bring matte/glossy to those 8 ink printers that can currently only print matte or only print gloss. Your 4800 would fit into that category. We will decrease the shades from 7 to 6 as an option and include both matte and photo blacks as well as the Gloss Overprint on the supported 8 ink cart position printers. The regular K7 systems will still be available of course. And we will revamp the 9 and 10 cart position printers to use two or three different Piezography ink sets so that these can be blended nearly in infinite ways using 2 or 3 curves blending in QTR. I have been using a system like this for my own work for several years and it's really quite mind boggling in terms of complicated yet subtle split tones. It's a way to make an autographic mixture without having to pour inks from the bottles into special blends.

Adding R3000, R2000, X900 (including 490), and X980s in the Fall as well. So the options will increase in terms of matte/glossy flexibility as upgrades to current users by swapping out a couple inks and using new curves, and we will have blending available on printers that use 8 - 10 ink cart positions as an option for those who do not want straight K7 systems.

I maintain a blog at http://www.piezography.com where these details will begin to emerge.

Jon Cone
Piezography
available at: InkjetMall.com (http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.15/category.1238/.f)

[Chuck Kimmerle]

How much better is the prints with Piezography, than the Epson K3 system?.....Is there another system for printing Monochrome on Epson wide printers 3800 4800 and bigger?


Your question as to which is better is somewhat loaded, as the method to lay down the inks is as important as the quality of the inks. For b/w prints, for example, the Epson b/w module is pretty good but, as it's not color-managed, there is a lot of trial and error to obtain acceptable results. Even then, the prints are often lacking subtle detail.

I've used the Cone inks and they are very nice, but another option to consider is a Raster Image Processor (RIP) such as QuadToneRIP (QTR) or Imageprint. Both use the standard Epson inks to create b/w prints that rival 3rd-party gray inksets such as Cone, with the added benefit of being able to print color prints, when needed.

QTR is a $50 shareware application with the ability to create custom profiles but can print only one image at a time. Imageprint is much more expensive and, aside from the inability to create home-grown custom profiles, has much more flexibility and, IMHO, produces slightly finer prints. Both RIP's however, create amazing prints. For the 17" printers, Imageprint is something like $900. Expensive, yes, but it's worth it. I chose this option rather than Cone inks not because of a quality difference, but rather because it was a better fit with how I work.

Either the Cone inks or one of the RIPs will do you well, it's just a matter of personal preference and workflow. You'll find supporters of all three, each of whom will claim their method produces the better print, but as all are excellent, you really can't go wrong.

[Peter De Smidt]

You can use rips with BW inksets from MIS and Cone. In fact, at least one of their inksets requires using QTR.

The main difference between the Epson OEM solutions and the better third party inksets is that the OEM MK, PK, LK and LLK inks aren't very neutral, with the PK at least having a greenish-yellowish tinge. This means that however you print with them, whether the Epson driver or a rip, you'll have to add other color inks to get what most think of as a pleasing image tone. On the plus side, OEM inks tend to get a very high dmax, and they have minimal gloss differential and bronzing without having to resort to clear-coating the print, whether with a spray or with glop, and they tend to have a very high consistency.

I highly recommend that the original poster get some sample prints made, maybe even having his own image printed. Inkjetmall (i.e. Mr. Cone) offers a printing service with various inksets and papers, and Mr. Roark has been willing to make sample prints for a small amount in the past. He really focuses on matte printing for his fine-art images though. With OEM inks and Epson's ABW approach, you might see if Clayton Jones would make a print for you. (http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm) Mr. Cone's new glossy systems have a lot of promise, as I'm not a big fan of running a print through the printer twice, or having to set aside a second printer as an over-coating machine.

[Chuck Kimmerle]

The main difference between the Epson OEM solutions and the better third party inksets is that the OEM MK, PK, LK and LLK inks aren't very neutral, with the PK at least having a greenish-yellowish tinge.

That may be true when printing with only grays and blacks. However, it's simply not an issue here. RIPs don't use only the gray inks, but have use of the other colors (aside from yellow, which quickly fades) to ensure neutral tones, or even provide smoothly toned cold or warm tints.

[joncone@cone-editions.com]

We have a few advanced users (Tyler Boley, John Dean, and Walker Blackwell) who have been using Piezography Gloss Overprint to overcoat their HP and Epson color prints. The results which they shared with me at the Society for Photographic Education conference bridged the gap between inkjet and photography (finally) when viewing color inkjet prints. I believe it was Tyler Boley who first began experimenting with my Gloss Overprint on color inkjet. That was several years ago. He began sharing his efforts with others. These guys are like the Navy Seals of inkjet printing - exceptional experimentation without regards to choosing 3rd party over OEM. They do it all and combine these effortlessly. They all use Piezography but are not married to it like I am, and they use HP and Epson OEM solutions as they require. Lots of printers as you can well imagine.

A number of customers of my customers are applying Gloss Overprint using semi-working or older Epson LF printers. I create a QTR curve for them, according to how many print heads they have still functioning - as it can be applied by one print head or a combination of print heads depending upon speed desired. It remains an option for a less than fully functional older Epson LF printer (to serve as the Gloss Overprinter.) At Cone Editions, we use a 7600 with only 5 working heads to speed up the overprinting on glossy Piezography prints. We have an old 9000 with only 3 functional heads.

What Gloss Overprint does for Epson ABW prints, and how it functions in Piezography Glossy, is to completely eliminate any gloss differential between highlights (or paper white) and ink tones. It produces a uniform gloss over the entire print regardless to the amount of ink that has been printed in making the photograph.

ABW when catching any light reflection shows differing levels of gloss between unprinted paper and ink and therefore shows up within the images as well. For some this is so minor as to not be worth mentioning and for others it is totally objectionable. The use of the overprint completely eliminates this phenomena and makes the inkjet prints look like conventional photographic surfaces. Conventional Fiber and RC papers do not modulate gloss according to the amount of density that is developed. That's what we are trying to achieve with Piezography Glossy. So, we see this as an optional gap-bridger for conventional inkjet printmakers, and it is a mandatory and integral part of the Piezography Glossy system. The curves I build for Piezography Glossy form a linearization only after the Overprint is applied.

Finally, we provide replacements for the Epson LK and LLK for a number of customers who use my inks as part of their Epson ABW process. Shade 4 Piezography ink is equivalent to Epson LK. Shade 5 Piezography ink is equivalent to Epson LLK. Most of these customers continue to use EPSON PK but switch out their Epson MK to Piezography shade 1. The Epson PK uses some dye still and is darker than Piezography MPS shade 1 (my photo black) which is 100% pigment. But, because Piezography is encapsulated pigment, it is compatible when used with Epson Ultrachrome inks. So it gives another dimension to printmaking with combined Ultrachrome and Piezography ink sets. The Piezography Selenium or Neutral shades 4&5 are most widely used in this solution. However, a few are now using Piezography Carbon 4&5 and creating their own ICC profiles to compensate for the lack of green expected in the Epson LK and LLK which the Carbon shades 4 & 5 replace.

Hope this makes sense and is also somewhat interesting as an option to better printmaking.


Jon Cone
Piezography
available at: InkjetMall.com (http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.15/category.1238/.f)

[George Pappas]

Mike,

I have been using Jon's K7/MPS inkset in my Epson 4880 for 18 months. I primarily print with the Glossy inkset and use the same printer to perform a second pass of the gloss optimizer on a print. It is a very easy process and leads to terrific results. I find the results to be better (more subtle tonality) than the B&W OEM inkset I used in the past.

The difference in quality is not created by the QTR software, though it is needed. The difference in quality comes of the fact that you are using 6-7 shades of grey/black ink to print a B&W image instead of 3 with an OEM inkset. As a result, the printer has a much richer palette of ink to render each part of the image's tonal range.

Another poster mentioned image color - I use Jon's Type5 for warmer toned prints, Canson Infinity Baryta for neutral, and Epson Exhibition Fiber for cooler toned prints. I really enjoy the image quality and tone that these choices give me.

If I were in your shoes, I would take several images that you have printed before and have Piezo prints made by Jon's studio on a few papers. This should tell you what you need to know.

Best Regards,
George

[Tyler Boley]

Often people don't want to hear from Jon about these issues as they assume they will be getting a sales pitch since he sells some of the options available. Unfortunately, by dismissing his input as merely sales, one also dismisses one of the few people on the planet who actually knows what he's talking about when it comes to advanced fine art ink systems.
While it is true this forum has a high degree of advanced photographic knowledge available, there is still very little knowledge here or in any of the forums when it comes to truly advanced and masterful inkjet fine art printing. In fact most of the people I consider worth listening to are not here. Being an evangelist for his own products is of course a given, but all the other "gurus" on line considered expert also have vested interests, yet they all have vast amounts of knowledge to impart.
Specialized advanced B&W printing with ink, in my opinion, continues to evolve far more rapidly than the community keeps pace with, it has become very niche. So addressing these issues with some general one sentence replies to questions that are not quite the real issues... very difficult. It takes time, learning, and sample prints from anyone having them on offer. One thing a lot of us do when we get together is look at a LOT of prints.
So Jon, when are you putting that QT movie about your history up? People need to know who they are hearing from...
Tyler

[photobymike]

A lot of information.... thanks Tyler, George, and Jon...

I am leaning against the glossy option, Because i like the fiber based papers like Moab.
The Epson K3 inks are good at B&W printing glossy...

Jon do you have an example of the difference between K3 and K7 inks on fiber paper?

I think i know the answer but, the K7 inks require the use of a RIP driver/program?... (PPC MAC)

When i flush the K3 ink out, can i use the same carts for the new ink? or do i need a new set of carts?

The pet peeve about My Epson printers (4800 4880) is head clogging. Are the K7 inks better or worse? or maybe the same....?

I sell my pictures at art shows, displays... ect... I do not want good pictures, i really want great photographs, the best i can produce. I would really want to know there is a difference in the output for 800 dollars and change....

What about an r2880 printer? Jon you offer a CIS system.... can i use refillable carts instead?

Thanks ... it is really nice to be able to hear from others about K7 inks for Epson

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny: i am interested in any opinions.

Yikes, did you really say this? I am sure some would be horrified. ;-)

The answer, to this question about paper follows. However, first let me explain my personal bias. Back in the old days when I used to be a vegetarian, I didn't eat the fake meat they were making from soybeans. I figured if I wanted meat I would just eat meat. By the same token, if I want a print to look like a darkroom print I would just print in a darkroom, I'm plenty capable.

When I made the move to platinum back in the late '70's I was so excited I never looked back. I found an effect that happens, only on prints where there is no gloss to interrupt the illusion, where some viewers "fell into" the print. It's called breaking the ground. When I discovered this, and the sense of richness the alternative processes gave me, I never looked back. For this reason, I am not interested in heavy blacks, or gloss of any kind. For others that love dark blacks and gloss - its a personal thing, I wish them well, etc. Just not my interest.

That said (perhaps not quite concisely as I'd like, sorry) I use primarily two papers these days. I have done years of work tuning Hahnemuhle's PhotoRag in both color and b&w. It's a fine paper. There are others like it, such as the Crane and a Canson. With a little work, beautiful smooth gradations should be possible from all three of these.

Lately, I have discovered Kozo. When I printed in platinum, I used a paper from James River that was translucent. The light was going thru the prints and bouncing back off the mat. The prints were luminescent as a result. I have found a Kozo paper that does this same thing, at about 70lb, and am having a blast with it. Kozo is handmade Japanese paper, made from a bush rather than a tree. It's exquisite.

Both the Hahnemuhle and the Kozo are expensive (roughly the same) but the years of testing means I know exactly how they will behave so I keep going. If I get to the result I want quicker I figure there's a benefit in there somewhere...

Hope this helps,

Lenny

[George Pappas]

Mike, quick reply to one of your follow up questions. I have had the Cone Inkset in my 4880 for 18 months without one head clog. Every time I fire up the printer, I print a head clean test to be sure....always solid bars.

I do try to turn on the printer and print at least once a week. I have had the printer off for as long as three weeks while I was traveling with no head clogs.

You will need to agitate your ink to keep the pigments in suspension on a regular basis for consistent density.

[Peter De Smidt]

Ok, no gloss. That helps. QTR is very inexpensive and quite flexible. Many who use BW inksets use it. While it might be possible to flush and refill your old cartridges, it's not a good idea. Get a set of funnel fill cartridges for your 4800. If you go Piezography, get their cartridges. That way if there's an issue, they'll be better able to help you out.

Regarding head clogging, all pigment inks will show some settling over time, with some dilutions/inks being more prone to it than others. Regularly agitating the cartridges and printer helps immensely, as does regular printing. I've had clogs with Epson inks, Piezography inks, and Mis inks.

An R2880 is very different from your 4800, with the former being much more of a consumer machine. (I had a r2400 before my 4800.) More importantly, if you do a lot of printing, you'll find that you regularly have to change the extremely small ink cartridges.

As has been said before by a number of people now, the only way "...to know there is a difference in the output for 800 dollars and change...." is to get some sample prints made.

[photobymike]

Thanks Peter... i intend to ask Jon to see if he would print a sample for me.....K3 vs K7...

I am going to get the Cone carts, but do i use them for the flush and rinse them out or do i need a new set of cartridges?

[Tyler Boley]

QTR setup for Cone inksets is plug and play, literally nothing to learn other than the exact settings.. just follow the instructions. Pay ther $50 shareware fee.
The various Epson printers here with Ultrachrome, Ultrachrome HDR, Cone Peizotone, and Cone K7, inks, the Cone inks "clog" the least.
Tyler

[gevalia]

I'm just about to pull the plug on a new 3880 and Jon's K7 Selenium inkset so I am reading all related posts. And I have a suggestion. The guitar forum I subscribe to has a roving box of guitar picks from various manufacturers. Picks can be anywhere from $1 to $50 or more and a whole list of materials are used to produce different sounds on different instruments of differing ages.

How about a roving box of prints to people on this forum. Various inksets, various papers. post your name to the list and when you receive it, you're responsible for mailing it to the next person on the list.

[D. Bryant]

I'm just about to pull the plug on a new 3880 and Jon's K7 Selenium inkset so I am reading all related posts. And I have a suggestion. The guitar forum I subscribe to has a roving box of guitar picks from various manufacturers. Picks can be anywhere from $1 to $50 or more and a whole list of materials are used to produce different sounds on different instruments of differing ages.

How about a roving box of prints to people on this forum. Various inksets, various papers. post your name to the list and when you receive it, you're responsible for mailing it to the next person on the list.

I don't get how a roving box of prints is going to benefit anyone in the long term.

Back, in the day of silver gelatin printing, paper manufacturers sold sample booklets of their papers that contained actual prints make by them. You or a group could replicate that with a sample print ring.

Why not either purchase a print or prints from IJM or purchase paper samples and make prints yourself. You then can create a 'book' if you will of different papers.

I would suggest that you build a list of interested parties and have them register their printer/ink being used with their e-mail address and then curious parties could pay them a nominal fee for making a test print. Often paper makers will sell sheets of paper samples directly to the consumer.

[joncone@cone-editions.com]

Thanks Peter... i intend to ask Jon to see if he would print a sample for me.....K3 vs K7...

I am going to get the Cone carts, but do i use them for the flush and rinse them out or do i need a new set of cartridges?

Mike, we don't print with K3 inks so can't do the comparison. But we do print for people at Cone Editions Press (custom printing) or online at InkjetMall from files that you prepare yourself and upload. Here is the link to the Piezography printing that is online at InkjetMall. You can pick your inks and paper from our selections.

Piezography Online Printing (http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.15/category.29282/.f)


In terms of the inks clogging or not. We produce an encapsulated pigment particle very similar to Epson and HP, but with a different co-polymer. The end result is the same - no static attraction and no clumping. While we improve over earlier Ultrachrome inks in older printers, we should have the same performance as K3 and higher in modern printers. I think if you ask around you will find that since 2005 when we began encapsulating that we have a very good track record.

And Tyler no quicktime but my checkered past is on my blog here: My Story (http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/mystory/)

If anyone is curious about my own photography, it's a cross between old and new - using non-traditional washi papers, or perhaps traditional washi made with 21st century techniques, and using a number of inks in a non-conventional way to print my photographs in imaginary "vintage" styles. I suppose if I think about it a little more, I could come up with a better explanation...but a blog post with a few pics is here (http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/blog/piezography-life/gimme-that-old-time-feeling/).

Jon

[Brian Ellis]

There is a mid-ground between using Epson's driver and switching to Cone's (or MIS) inks. That's QTR (www.harrington.com). Try if for free, if you want to keep it pay $50.