View Full Version : When do you use matt paper?
Most photographers are obsessed with using glossy. However for certain images, I find that matt works better. When do you use matt - and have you even experimentd with matt paper?(B&W)
Emil Schildt
6-Sep-2011, 10:43
I normally use matt surfaces. I don't really like the glossy shine on a glossy paper.
Also - the motives I do, are goes more with the matt surface. Especially when I distress the negative ot the final print.
I also use liquid emulsion all the time - and here, the surface is also matt/semi-matt..
all in all - choise of type of paper is a tool like all other choises made in photography.
some pictures cry out for glossy - some don't...
Warm-toned images - and those of limited dynamic range - can often look nicer on matt paper, especially if the paper is itself slightly warm-toned. On the other hand, if the subject is shiny like metal or water, and the image is cold-toned and of high dynamic range, then glossy paper can enhance the "brilliance".
Some of the best images I saw on matt surfaced paper were on Portriga Rapid 118 and were of Chaco Canyon ruins. The black of the ruins' windows tried to suck you inside. Wonderful!
Vaughn
Greg Lockrey
6-Sep-2011, 11:13
I always liked the look of un-ferrotyped gloss paper best.
Never. Don't like the look, at least for my photographs.
mhulsman
6-Sep-2011, 11:14
I use matt paper for portraits.
I like it for the skin tones.
Tried it for other than portraits, but than the blacks are not so intense.
Maybe selenium toning can reach more intense blacks on matt paper. Have to try that another time.
Emil Schildt
6-Sep-2011, 14:04
I use matt paper for portraits.
I like it for the skin tones.
Tried it for other than portraits, but than the blacks are not so intense.
Maybe selenium toning can reach more intense blacks on matt paper. Have to try that another time.
development - development and then development....;)
when my girlfriend (much better than me in the darkroom) makes her magic - she can make the blacks as black as a dark hole in the universe - and still keep the details.....:rolleyes:
It's not the paper - it is the development. (in my experience)
There is more light scatter on the surface of matt paper, which in turn tends to make the blacks not as deep as on identically printed and developed glossy paper.
There is more light scatter on the surface of matt paper, which in turn tends to make the blacks not as deep as on identically printed and developed glossy paper.
Hmmm...one would think that the opposite would be true - that the matted surface is less likely to be reflective and therefore the blacks would be blacker - just as black velvet is compared to black satin
mhulsman
7-Sep-2011, 01:24
development - development and then development....;)
when my girlfriend (much better than me in the darkroom) makes her magic - she can make the blacks as black as a dark hole in the universe - and still keep the details.....:rolleyes:
It's not the paper - it is the development. (in my experience)
Can you tell me more about that.
Which paper, developer and times is she using.
I am using Ilford MGIVFB matt, Ilford multigrade developer 1+9 at 20 degrees celcius at 2,5 minutes.
Brian Ellis
7-Sep-2011, 06:36
I never use glossy paper, I use either matte or semi-gloss. Many photographers prefer glossy because it produces maximum black. I don't like it because it reflects light which can make it difficult to see the entire image from one vantage point (of course if the print is framed and under glass that's a problem with any paper but I don't frame more than maybe 1 in 100 of my prints). I'm a believer in Dick Arentz's (I think) observation that you don't need maximum black, you just need an adequate black. For me matte or semi-gloss usually produces an adequate black.
I use matte paper about 90% of the time. I do a lot of hand-coloring, which doesn't work on glossy papers. I also do some selective bleaching/toning, applying the bleach/toner with medical cotton-tipped applicators. The "tooth" of matte paper seems to allow more control, as they don't run as much.
Gary L. Quay
7-Sep-2011, 18:02
I use matt FB paper for anything that doesn't need deep blacks, and where the delicacy of the details is paramount.
--Gary
I use matt paper for 98% of my work, I prefer the slightly textured surface of Matt paper to the flat surface of glossy paper. I also believe that pictures printed on matt paper have more depth than the same image printed on glossy paper (the photo is inside the paper, with glossy paper the image is on the surface). And in a solo exhibition nobody will complain because of the lack depth in the blacks they have nothing to compare.
Scott Walker
8-Sep-2011, 05:06
I also use matt paper for hand coloring, gloss for everything else though.
Roger Cole
8-Sep-2011, 05:15
Never, at least so far. Don't like the reduced d-max.
In fiber I prefer what used to be called glossy-dried-matte, or glossy paper not ferrotyped. In RC I prefer Ilford Pearl or equivalent, which looks much like the FB glossy air dried.
I don't really get this thing about how glossy blacks are supposedly blacker.
I don't really get this thing about how glossy blacks are supposedly blacker.
It comes from how we actually perceive the blacks (and other tones) in a print. What we see is light passing through the emulsion (from the front, obviously), reflecting off the paper base, through the emulsion again, and to our eyes. The silver in the emulsion blocks some of the light on both of its trips thru the emulsion. If the silver blocks enough light, then we see a "black".
So what we see as a black is just a reduction of the light that can pass thru the emulsion twice.
A matt paper is highly textured and it scatters light on its emulsion surface in many directions.* So in the blacks even though the emulsion is not allowing any light to reflect off the paper base, through the emulsion and to out eyes, there is still some light reaching our eyes in the blacks due to the scattering of light on the emulsion surface -- thus the blacks are not so black.
* Glossy papers tend to bounce light off instead of scattering it.
It comes from how we actually perceive the blacks (and other tones) in a print. What we see is light passing through the emulsion (from the front, obviously), reflecting off the paper base, through the emulsion again, and to our eyes. The silver in the emulsion blocks some of the light on both of its trips thru the emulsion. If the silver blocks enough light, then we see a "black".
So what we see as a black is just a reduction of the light that can pass thru the emulsion twice.
A matt paper is highly textured and it scatters light on its emulsion surface in many directions.* So in the blacks even though the emulsion is not allowing any light to reflect off the paper base, through the emulsion and to out eyes, there is still some light reaching our eyes in the blacks due to the scattering of light on the emulsion surface -- thus the blacks are not so black.
* Glossy papers tend to bounce light off instead of scattering it.
But wouldn't a textured surface that doesn't reflect light as well appear MORE black, just as a piece of black velvet is darker appearing than a piece of black plastic?
The emulsion reflects about the same amount of light with both glossy and matt. After all, it is the same emulsion, just applied to a rougher surface. It is how they reflect the light that is different.
To reduce glare off glossy prints we angle the light so that it reflects away from our eyes. Very little reflected light hits our eyes. Can't do that with matt paper as easily as the light reflects in all directions.
...as the light reflects in all directions.
Thus resulting in less light hitting the eyes, and so should be darker. :confused:
Thus resulting in less light hitting the eyes, and so should be darker. :confused:
The surface of glossy paper reflects almost no light towards our eyes! (if the paper is held correctly)! Thus just about all the light we are seeing is due to light passing thru the emulsion, off the base and back thru the emulsion to our eyes. No "extra" light to reduce the quality of the black.
Matt reflects some light towards our eyes all the time (no matter how we hold the print to the light) -- thus this surface glare reduces the quality of the blacks (it gets added to the light passing thru the emulsion, etc).
Can't figure out how to describe it any better than that...
Vaughn
Roger Cole
8-Sep-2011, 14:05
Thus resulting in less light hitting the eyes, and so should be darker. :confused:
No, it results in MORE light hitting the eyes.
Think of it this way. Assume that both papers reflect, say, 100 units (whatever unit you want to use) of the light striking it. The glossy paper reflects 90% of this light, or 90 units, in a single direction and scatters only 10% in every direction. By just turning the paper the right way, so you're not seeing the sheen, 90% of that light is automatically reflected AWAY from your eyes. Of the other 90% that is scattered in all directions only a small amount, say 1%, will happen to go toward your eyes so you will see 1% of 10 units or .1 unit. Now say matte paper also reflects 90% of the light striking it in a black area, but in all directions and, again, 1% of that happens to go directly toward your eyes. For this you now see 1% of 90 units rather than 1% of 10 units, or 0.9 unit, nine times as much light and thus a lighter black than from the glossy.
The actual figures don't really matter and I just pulled these out of my changing bag. ;) But they illustrate the point. Makes sense to me.
No, it results in MORE light hitting the eyes.
Think of it this way. Assume that both papers reflect, say, 100 units (whatever unit you want to use) of the light striking it. The glossy paper reflects 90% of this light, or 90 units, in a single direction and scatters only 10% in every direction. By just turning the paper the right way, so you're not seeing the sheen, 90% of that light is automatically reflected AWAY from your eyes. Of the other 90% that is scattered in all directions only a small amount, say 1%, will happen to go toward your eyes so you will see 1% of 10 units or .1 unit. Now say matte paper also reflects 90% of the light striking it in a black area, but in all directions and, again, 1% of that happens to go directly toward your eyes. For this you now see 1% of 90 units rather than 1% of 10 units, or 0.9 unit, nine times as much light and thus a lighter black than from the glossy.
The actual figures don't really matter and I just pulled these out of my changing bag. ;) But they illustrate the point. Makes sense to me.
Hmmm. Good hypothesis. Lets ask Ctien. Wonder then why velvet seems darker than plastic.
I also have my doubts about "dry down".
Hmmm. Good hypothesis. Lets ask Ctien. Wonder then why velvet seems darker than plastic.
I also have my doubts about "dry down".
Because velvet is a 3 dimensional surface and light gets "trapped" bouncing and being absorbed inbetween the fibers.
Dry down -- that is because the paper/emulsion shrinks upon drying. The grains of silver in the emulsion get closer together as the emulsion dries and shrinks...and blocks more light passing through. More or less...;)
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