Rollo Pyro experience

[atlcruiser]

Hi All,
Later today i want to try rollo pyro for the first time in my JOBO CPE-2. I looked around a bit for time and did not come up with much. The massive devl chart giver 5 min @ 24C for 120. My plan was to start at 7min at 18-20 and see how it works

Any experience?

thanks, i will post some results

david

[Sirius Glass]

Per Volquartz recommended using Rollo Pyro and he used the 3010 Expert Tank.

His recommendations are for processing to completion and are not temperature dependent:

Solution A for 5 minutes
Solution B for 6 to 7.5 minutes
Two water rinses of 30 seconds each
TF4 [or TF5] at 1:3 for 3 minutes
Two water rinses of 30 seconds each
Reuse Solution A for 2 minutes
Wash 15 to 20 minutes

I have not had time to try this. Please let me know your experience, especially if you follow these instructions.

Steve

[atlcruiser]

thanks Steve. Rained all day so maybe I can get out tomorrow before work with the 45 or the 810 and burn some film then give the rollo a try.


I normally do not use the TF4. For roll film I have been using kodak rapid fix and for sheet film the rapid fix when done in the jobo and sodium trisulfate when done in trays. Since the sodium trisulfate is also a non hardening fixed like the TF 4 can anyone see any issue using it instead of the TF4?

david

[jonreid]

you haven't mentioned which film. I use rollo with Tri-X rated at 200ISO. 8ml Sol A, 16ml Sol B with water up to 500ml, manual rotation in a 3005 Jobo for 9min incl fill and drain time at 20C

[Sirius Glass]

Per was quite adamant that TF4 be used with any pyro and not the usual hypos. That is due to the pH changes needed.

[Jay DeFehr]

A couple points of contention, with all due respect to the late Mr. Volquartz: 1) soaking fixed film in used developer doesn't add image stain, which requires development, but general stain, which acts like colored fog, and 2) choice of fixer has little, if any effect on image stain.

[atlcruiser]

Ok...the rain stopped!

The first two here are FP4+ 45 from the crown
1.4:3:100 for 7 min at about 75'

I followed the directions on the PF pack but I used home made non hardening fixer. I did not wash the 2nd time with the used pyro

Not so sure I am loving this lens!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6089/6142083817_52c2b16303_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142083817/)
0911 BW 45 001.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142083817/) by urbanlandcruiser (http://www.flickr.com/people/53092319@N04/), on Flickr


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6170/6142084755_f67f13a45e_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142084755/)
0911 BW 45 004.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142084755/) by urbanlandcruiser (http://www.flickr.com/people/53092319@N04/), on Flickr

[Jay DeFehr]

Lens aside, your processing looks good. The bottom image looks like it might be slightly underexposed, assuming you wanted more detail in the tree. Congratulations!

[atlcruiser]

thanks jay..I am the KING of underexposure!

Here are two from the deardorff 810

360 commercial
arista 400@200
ABC+ in da jobo
1:2:750 for 7 min at 75'ish

These are more my speed :)

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6155/6142310337_40b1dbb6ea_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142310337/)
0911 BW 810004.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142310337/) by urbanlandcruiser (http://www.flickr.com/people/53092319@N04/), on Flickr

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6158/6142864030_261a0808c7_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142864030/)
0911 BW 810002.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53092319@N04/6142864030/) by urbanlandcruiser (http://www.flickr.com/people/53092319@N04/), on Flickr

[Jay DeFehr]

Look good, David. Is ABC+ different than Rollo Pyro?

[atlcruiser]

Thanks again jay..AFAIK it is the same stuff. Not sure why I choose to label it ABC+...that is what is on the PF data sheet :)

[Jay DeFehr]

That's funny. According to the published formula for Rollo Pyro, it's an adaptation of PMK, and like PMK, a two-part formula, and itself an adaptation of WD2D, with not much in common with ABC Pyro. But what's in a name? Enjoy!

[sanking]

Rollo Pyro was introduced in 1997 by Harald Leban of Austria as ABC+. He called it a modification of PMK,. The formula was marketed soon thereafter as Rollo Pyro by Bostick & Sullivan . Rollo Pyro is a very energetic developer that works well with rotary processing, producing low general stain while yielding film speeds similar to PMK. Carl Weese describes his testing of the developer in the book he wrote with Dick Sullivan, The New Platinum Print. He writes, “We nicknamed the new modified formula “Rollo Pyro”. Rollo is meant only for rotary processing of sheet film. It does not perform well in tray development because in a tray it produces a strong silver image with very little stain. “ The formula is as follows.

Part A
Distilled water 800ml
Sodium bisulfite 20gm
Metol 20 gm
Pyrogallic Acid 150 gm
Ascorbic Acid 10 gm
Potassium bromide 1.5 gr
EDTA tetra sodium 2.5 gm
Distilled water to make 1000 ml

Part B
Sodium Metaborate 300 gm
EDTA tetra sodium 5 gm
Distilled water to 1000ml

The standard working solution was 1Part A + 2 Parts B + 100 Parts water.

Compared to PMK, Leban’s ABC+ formula, 1) uses more pyrogallic acid, 2) contains potassium bromide, and 3) contains ascorbic acid.

ABC+/Rollo Pyro should not be confused with the old Pyro ABC formula used by Weston and other masters, nor with the Pyro Plus formula of Hutchings, which added a small amount of Amidol to the PMK formula.

Photographers Formula also markets Leban's formulas as ABC Plus. They describe it as follows. "ABC PLUS PYRO (ROLLO PYRO) is a formula developed by Harold Leban specifically for rotary processing in Jobo® equipment or BTZS® tubes. Thanks to Carl Weese for his painstaking testing and allowing us to use his information in our instruction sheets. The testing was done on several hundred negatives under a wide range of lighting conditions, being developed in Joboâ Expert drums. The results were clean negatives that can be processed in fairly short times at a relatively low (70°F) temperature in a single batch of chemistry. This formula however does not perform well in tray development because it produces a strong silver image with very little stain."

Sandy

[Kerik Kouklis]

I've used Rollo Pyro both in rotary and tray development since it was first published. I get plenty of image stain with tray development. I agree that the after-bath is useless except for extending your printing times and I've never used TF4 fix. Typically Ilford Rapidfix.

[Michael Clark]

Sirius, the instructions on my Gilbert and Sullivan have me mixing the A and B together just before development, did not know there was another method. What are the advantages of developing the film using A and B separately.

Mike

[atlcruiser]

I am interested as well. The PF kit mixes A+B as well. I assumed this was to get the pyro activated and mixing is the the same as standard ABC in trey developing.

[Jay DeFehr]

Using the solutions separately makes it a 2-bath developer. Most 2-part developers can be used this way. The trick is in getting the concentrations right, and getting even development. I'm not convinced staining developers are the best candidates for 2-bath development, but I acknowledge most are capable of excellent results.

Rollo Pyro should not be compared to ABC Pyro; they're too different, I think.

[atlcruiser]

thanks Jay....i will stick with normal, single bath for now. I find when i try to reinvent the wheel things quickly go downhill.


My comment on rollo to traditional AC was mor ein how it was mixed not in how it really works

[John Powers]

Sirius, the instructions on my Gilbert and Sullivan have me mixing ....Mike

Did you make the musical connection after talking with Melody?

John

[Michael Clark]

Did you make the musical connection after talking with Melody?

John
No John I haven't ,still whistle'en Dixie.

[Jay DeFehr]

David,

My comment about comparisons was directed at the people who market the developer. I think ABC+ is a very misleading name for this developer. Granted, this might be the name given the formula by its originator, but I think B&S did everyone a service by calling it Rollo Pyro, which avoids confusing it with a very dissimilar formula, and describes its intended purpose.


....the Pyro Plus formula of Hutchings, which added a small amount of Amidol to the PMK formula.

Sandy,

I've not seen the formula for Pyro Plus, is it published somewhere?

[sanking]

I've not seen the formula for Pyro Plus, is it published somewhere?

Jay,

Pyro Plus is not a full blown formula per se but a modification of PMK in which Amidol, in amounts ranging from 0.05 to 0.1 grams per liter, is added to the "working" solution of PMK. Hutchings in his book claims that the addition of amidol increases "developer speed" by 1/3 to 1/2 stops but that more than 0.1 grams/liter increases fog.

Sandy

[Jay DeFehr]

Sandy,

I saw that in Hutchings' book, but I haven't seen where the formula for Pyro Plus has been published, or Hutchings relating his amidol "enhancement" to Pyro Plus. It seems I saw a notice at B&S that the formula is proprietary, but I might have assumed as much since it's not published anywhere I can find.

[Jay DeFehr]

Sandy,

Apologies, I was mistaking Pyro Plus for Max Pyro.

[Sirius Glass]

Sirius, the instructions on my Gilbert and Sullivan have me mixing the A and B together just before development, did not know there was another method. What are the advantages of developing the film using A and B separately.

Mike

If the two are kept separately, Solution A is absorbed into the emulsion. Then Solution B develops to completion. Doing it this way, the times are the same regardless of the temperature, within reason [I doubt that it would work below 32 degrees F [0 C] or above 100 degrees F [37 C]]


Per Volquartz recommended using Rollo Pyro and he used the 3010 Expert Tank.

His recommendations are for processing to completion and are not temperature dependent:
Solution A for 5 minutes
Solution B for 6 to 7.5 minutes
Two water rinses of 30 seconds each
TF4 [or TF5] at 1:3 for 3 minutes
Two water rinses of 30 seconds each
Reuse Solution A for 2 minutes
Wash 15 to 20 minutes


Steve

[Jay DeFehr]

I don't mean to pick nits, but since you used bold type, your description above is not quite accurate. In a 2-bath developer, development is not carried to completion, but only until the developer absorbed in the emulsion is exhausted. Development to completion, typical of paper development, is something else. In development to completion, all exposed silver is completely developed, and continued development can only produce fog, and not increased contrast. This is not the case in 2-bath film development. If you take the film from the second bath and put it back in the first bath, it will continue to develop and increase contrast.

In these types of 2-bath developers, contrast is controlled primarily by the concentration of the first bath, and development takes place in the second bath, until the developer is exhausted.