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Jehu
31-Aug-2011, 19:19
I thought I could get away with 6 week old chemistry. Not so. I mixed up the Kodak kit on July 14. The print should be predominately blue but it's coming out reddish amber. Is that from developer that's too old? Should the blix still be okay?

I've never used anything but kits for color film or print. I'm hoping to get away from that but I don't really understand the products very well. Would I need to buy Starter AND Replenisher? It seems like this could be much more economical than kits if I have a better understanding.

Mark Barendt
31-Aug-2011, 19:46
These

http://www.adorama.com/KKRABFR10L.html

http://www.adorama.com/KKRADRRT.html

No starter needed.

Mark Barendt
31-Aug-2011, 19:54
These can be mixed as you go.

jayabbas
31-Aug-2011, 20:07
I use Armadillo photo supply and use Trebla chems. If you have an understanding of aliquoting ( dividing amounts up into smaller equal amounts from a larger size) you can buy 25 gallon mix sizes at substantial cost savings( still not cheap but not the liquid gold prices of those little kits). Mix and if you can refrigerate your mixed chems the life is incredibly extended.

Roger Cole
31-Aug-2011, 22:41
Don't know about yours but properly stored (air displaced and kept cool) RA developer should last six weeks with no problems.

Larry Gebhardt
1-Sep-2011, 07:57
I use the same Kodak products Mark linked to, but with the starter. I think if you are going to replenish then you should also use the starter to keep the process from drifting. The developer listed is both the replenisher and the developer when mixed with starter and water.

They keep well over 6 weeks if the air is evacuated from the bottles. The blix seems to keep better than the developer.

Jehu
1-Sep-2011, 10:32
Don't know about yours but properly stored (air displaced and kept cool) RA developer should last six weeks with no problems.

My darkroom is in the part of my office that isn't being used anymore since I laid everyone off and I'm a one-man land-surveying outfit. I'm too cheap to run the AC in the whole office all the time so my chems are regularly stored around 80-85 degrees. From what you're saying, I assume that I should be keeping the mixed chems in the fridge. Is that okay for RA4, E-6 & C41? Also, I suppose I should use collapsible bottles or use my argon gas from my wire-feed welder.

Jehu
1-Sep-2011, 10:43
These can be mixed as you go.

Thanks Mark. Is there a similar solution for the C41 and E6?

Roger Cole
1-Sep-2011, 14:37
My darkroom is in the part of my office that isn't being used anymore since I laid everyone off and I'm a one-man land-surveying outfit. I'm too cheap to run the AC in the whole office all the time so my chems are regularly stored around 80-85 degrees. From what you're saying, I assume that I should be keeping the mixed chems in the fridge. Is that okay for RA4, E-6 & C41? Also, I suppose I should use collapsible bottles or use my argon gas from my wire-feed welder.

I'm not sure. I've kept it in a cool(ish) basement in the low 70s. I think I've heard of people refrigerating it but I haven't and can't say for certain it wouldn't cause problems.

It has also been a long time since I did RA4. (Over a decade.) I was using the regular stuff in drums (PITA) then went to Tetenal RA4AT not realizing the bleach-fix was a problem and that you can use the regular stuff at room temperature. Both developers kept well (2-3 months, always used it up by then) in that basement at the time.

Greg Blank
1-Sep-2011, 17:55
The only real RA process is done at 100F, RA does keep if not used up to several years 2-3 un mixed. I never liked the room temp stuff.



I'm not sure. I've kept it in a cool(ish) basement in the low 70s. I think I've heard of people refrigerating it but I haven't and can't say for certain it wouldn't cause problems.

It has also been a long time since I did RA4. (Over a decade.) I was using the regular stuff in drums (PITA) then went to Tetenal RA4AT not realizing the bleach-fix was a problem and that you can use the regular stuff at room temperature. Both developers kept well (2-3 months, always used it up by then) in that basement at the time.

Roger Cole
1-Sep-2011, 18:54
The only real RA process is done at 100F, RA does keep if not used up to several years 2-3 un mixed. I never liked the room temp stuff.

There was a problem with the RA4AT - bad bleach-fix.

But according to many reports there is no problem using regular RA4 at greatly reduced (room) temperature with increased development time. Many people are doing it (see many threads on APUG) So what they are doing then is, what, "imaginary" RA4? RA3.5 or something?

Mark Barendt
1-Sep-2011, 20:09
Thanks Mark. Is there a similar solution for the C41 and E6?

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/94134-list-color-chemicals-where-get-them.html

Some info here.

tgtaylor
1-Sep-2011, 20:35
I thought I could get away with 6 week old chemistry. Not so. I mixed up the Kodak kit on July 14. The print should be predominately blue but it's coming out reddish amber. Is that from developer that's too old? Should the blix still be okay?

I've never used anything but kits for color film or print. I'm hoping to get away from that but I don't really understand the products very well. Would I need to buy Starter AND Replenisher? It seems like this could be much more economical than kits if I have a better understanding.

Jehu,

Go to the Kodak website and download this Tech Pub which should answer the question posed in the first paaragraph: http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z130_01.pdf

I process with a rotary processor and always add a starter to the developer replenisher. Download CIS-49 on the kodak website which explains how to mix the various chemistry according to the producgt and your useage.

BTW, with Kodak RA-4 chemistry the processing temperature is 95F.

Thomas

Roger Cole
1-Sep-2011, 22:45
Kodak's recommended temperature is 95F. It works fine at lower temperatures with increased time. The higher temperature was chosen for rapid (RA - Rapid Access) processing in roller transport machines.

Retired Kodak chemical engineer weighing in on this very topic:

http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1197155

Greg Blank
2-Sep-2011, 06:35
Lets put it this way, at 100F it takes me two minutes to make a print from developer to Bleach and out of my roller transport. What is the total time at 68F? ;)


There was a problem with the RA4AT - bad bleach-fix.

But according to many reports there is no problem using regular RA4 at greatly reduced (room) temperature with increased development time. Many people are doing it (see many threads on APUG) So what they are doing then is, what, "imaginary" RA4? RA3.5 or something?

Drew Wiley
2-Sep-2011, 08:12
I have been using Kodak RA/RT in drums at 83 deg 2 min for several years now.
Wonderful results.

Greg Blank
2-Sep-2011, 08:38
I am sure. One can certainly use any time in the window of temps and get good results.

I hate drying drums. I do my 16x20 prints that way, But try making 100, 8x10 prints
for a client on a timeline of a few hours before delivery, using drums. There are many times I was glad I bought a Fujimoto and a RC dryer.


I have been using Kodak RA/RT in drums at 83 deg 2 min for several years now.
Wonderful results.

Drew Wiley
2-Sep-2011, 10:23
Drums are great for big prints or personal work, but a liability for client work on a schedule. So much of that "need it yesterday" kind of thing has transferred over
to digital workflow anyway; and along with that, folks just seem to have lower quality
expectations, since anyone can "presumably" shoot and print digital, especially in the
wedding/portrait genre. I picked up a really nice 20" roller transport processor last year
but haven't even bothered to hook it up yet. Just an ace in the hole, but now underfoot. And I've even contemplated setting up a 40-inch RA4 machine. But given
the fact that I'm just a few years from retirement, speed might not be the priority it
once was.

Roger Cole
2-Sep-2011, 12:56
I found drums a big PITA which is what lead me to room temperature work even though I had and have a Jobo. Something like a heated NOVA would be nice too; I have an unheated print pod that I bought mainly to reduce fumes. I suppose I could rig up a holding bath with aquarium heater for the developer tray without too awfully much trouble.

Drew Wiley
2-Sep-2011, 13:25
The small opening in the Jobo drums fills and drains a bit too slowly for the relatively
fast dev times of RA4. The continuous rim fill/drain of the CPI drums or something
analagous takes only a few seconds, even with the big 30x40 drum. I don't like doing
color work in trays or anything else open because I'm sensitized to the chemistry.
A little too much exposure and I get raspy and susceptible to any virus going around.
But precise temp control would involve a dimple-bottomed stainless tray with a water
jacket and thermoregulator. Or with practice, you could use the drift-by method with
a passive water jacket if ambient air temp isn't terribly out of whack. Sometimes all it
takes is a slight contant drip from a water hose to either cool or heat the water jacket
a tiny pinch. I do it all the time for black and white film dev, though not for color separation negs or related masks, which have to be dead on and require the fuss of
the thermoregulator. Ordinary mixing valves are so-so, but probably adequate for RA4;
but they need a certain amt of constant volume to work efficiently, so waste water.

Roger Cole
2-Sep-2011, 13:36
Can't use a mixing valve or drip where I'm set up now. Darkroom is makeshift in my basement and has no running water, until I get the basement built out. Works well enough - got a big 7 gallon water jug with a tap and use a holding bath, move stuff upstairs to wash. Color film is no more problem than black and white with the Jobo (CPE2, no inlet valve) so bottom line is something that works like the Jobo with thermostatic heating of a water jacket is practical. Anything with running water is not yet, and won't be for a year to two which is my expected schedule for building out the basement, allowing for other upcoming planned expenses.

Greg Blank
2-Sep-2011, 14:06
I had this issue as well as a result of not having proper ventilation. With a very warm running processor there are substantial fumes....so a fan is a requirement at 100F.


I don't like doing
color work in trays or anything else open because I'm sensitized to the chemistry.
A little too much exposure and I get raspy and susceptible to any virus going around.

LF_rookie_to_be
11-Sep-2011, 09:38
The small opening in the Jobo drums fills and drains a bit too slowly for the relatively
fast dev times of RA4. The continuous rim fill/drain of the CPI drums or something
analagous takes only a few seconds, even with the big 30x40 drum.

It'd be great to see a few pictures of the CPI cap...

tgtaylor
12-Sep-2011, 09:19
The 10 Liter Kodak Ektacolor RA Developer kit consists of 3 parts to mix: a, b, and c. The "a" part will oxidize the quickest after opening. Toss it when it changes to a dark tea color. However once opened it last for several months before going bad. For example I first opened the current kit that I am working out of on 5/20/2011 - I write the date on each of the components - and the color is good and will probably last several more months. Once opened I don't take any precautions to preserve it because I usually use it up before it goes bad. Once mixed as a working solution it deteriorates very rapidly - days - so it's best to mix it as you go. On the Kodak website you can download a tech pub that will give you detailed instructions on mixing smaller amounts from the concentrates. Simply do the math for the number of sheets or rolls you have to process. The flow is Concentrates ->Replenisher->Working tank Solution. Work the math backwards from the Working Tank amount needed to determine how much Replinsher to mix.

The Blix/Fix components will last longer. I have never had them go bad.

Thomas