Does anyone know...

[Ari]

...what some photographers use to write directly on their negatives?

Sometimes it looks like an X-acto knife, sometimes it looks like a Sharpie fine point.

In this photo of Samuel Beckett by Richard Avedon, there's an "8" in the top left-hand corner.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2vkkkrm.jpg

And yes, it's a slow night. :)

Thanks

[Bill Burk]

I'm guessing a quill with india ink.

[akfreak]

Sometimes they made all sorts of instructions for the printer. Karsh used to soup his own negs, Then use all sorts of markers, and masks to convey to the printer to his vision. After that work could begin in the darkroom making a final print. Here is an interesting example of this in action. Portrait of Artur Rubinstein showing crop marks,

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6074/6095472947_9cf6f146c2_b.jpg

[akfreak]

Also Some cameras had a little stylus that would let you make a mark on the film between shots thru a window,/slot, this would show up on the negs when developed. Vintage Kodak No. 1 Folding Pocket Camera had this feature. Here is a link showing the stylus (http://images.shopgoodwill.com/105/8-23-2011/sa6907856823-T9.jpg) used for marking between frames. It is always missing, rare to see one with it still there

[Ari]

So a fine-pointed metal instrument is the answer, I guess.
Thanks!

[greenrhino]

That would be a rapidigraph pen.

[Ari]

The Rapidograph pen uses ink; much of the time I see what look like scratched numbers.
Thanks, greenrhino.

[Jim Noel]

I use a Rapidograph to write exposure and development information on the edge of every negative.
If I want the writing to appear as black on the print, which is extremely rare, I use a fine point stylus to scratch into the emulsion.

[Ari]

Thanks, Jim.
It seems to me that a marking of some kind is necessary on single-sheet negatives, especially if one shoots multiples of the same scene as back-up.

[Bill Burk]

A 000 or 0000 rapidograph would do well, Avedon's looked more like quill because of the scritchiness. Rapidographs require "maintenance" while a quick rinse will take care of a "crow's quill".

[Ari]

Thanks, Bill.
Now to get a Rapidograph, and try to stop my hands from shaking. :)

[E. von Hoegh]

I use a Staedtler pigment marker. An extra fine Sharpie or one of the Pilot extra fine markers does the same thing. An art supply store will have what you need. Make that "ultra fine" There seem to be more of these at really reasonable prices than ever. A rapidograph is expensive and fussy. Let the india ink dry in it and you'll likely be buying a new one.

[Tom Monego]

When I was starting out in the late 60s, most photographers used plain pen handle with a fine pen point on it. Too much ink was always a problem, right now an ultra fine sharpie would be a good choice. Watch out on new calligraphy pens, my wife who has done calligraphy for as long as I have known her just bought a new set of pens and had problems with them releasing too much ink.

Tom

[Graham Patterson]

I use a fine point pen intended for overhead projection cells. It also works on most type of negative envelopes and file sheets.

Though OHPs seem to be going the way of the epidiascope.

[Robert Hughes]

Back in the day they'd use steel nibbed pens with india ink to mark whatever was in need of marking. You can buy them new at any art supply shop.

[Ari]

Free-flowing ink? Left-handed guy with severe caffeine addiction?
I think that would spell disaster for my negs :)

Thanks, Robert.

[Robert Hughes]

You could also try a pencil. But I'd probably use a fine Sharpie.

[Louie Powell]

The best answer is a Rapidograph pen with India ink. As Bill said, a 3/0 or 4/0 nib is great (but from experience I can attest to the fact that nibs that small are a maintenance nightmare!). I've been using a 1/0 nib - it's a bit large, but it doesn't have to be cleaned as often.

Rapidograph pens are made by Kooh-n-Noor - and there are competing products. I used Rapidographs to take notes when I was in college, and my experience was that the brand-X alternatives were a PITA. These are all 'technical pens' meaning that they are designed to be used with India ink, and include a mechanism to prevent the ink from drying and clogging the feed. The Kooh-n-Noor design is pretty good, but it still requires that the pen be periodically flushed out with fresh water (and perhaps a bit of dishwashing detergent), and if you have access to an ultrasonic cleaner, that's an even better solution.

If you want to work at it, a dip pen with India ink is also a possibility. Use the finest nib you can find, and practice to avoid getting 'blobs'.

There are some modern-technology alternatives - a Sharpie will work, as will a Staedler-Mars "Pigment Liner" pen. Both have ink that will dry on negatives (the Staedler-Mars ink may take some time, so you may need to devise a way to set the negatives aside for a day or so). But my experience with them is that the ink isn't dense enough to produce a really clean white line on the rebate when the negative is printed. In this respect, the Staedler-Mars is marginally better than a Sharpie.

[jnantz]

Also Some cameras had a little stylus that would let you make a mark on the film between shots thru a window,/slot, this would show up on the negs when developed. Vintage Kodak No. 1 Folding Pocket Camera had this feature. Here is a link showing the stylus (http://images.shopgoodwill.com/105/8-23-2011/sa6907856823-T9.jpg) used for marking between frames. It is always missing, rare to see one with it still there

these cameras took autographic film ... which was made from around 1914- the early 1930s ...
the film had something like carbon paper sandwiched between the negative,
and the paper backing ... the stylus allowed you to write on the negative.

[jayabbas]

I use a Staedtler Marsmatic 700 with 00 tip ( .30 mm) or 0 (.35mm). Mars 745 ink. Allow time to dry and beware if lefty like me.

[adam satushek]

Thanks OP for the post, i am interested in numbering a bunch of my 4x5 and 8x10 color negs and this has been helpful. I have the sleeves numbered, but id rather number the actual negs.

A rapidograph seems like agood way to go. I'm curious though, for those who have used used them, does the ink reactivate when wet? I ask because I am going to be fluid mount drum scanning so id need an ink that won't bleed in Kami.

And for those using a sharpie, do you have concerns about archivability? I have been advised to, and have used, sharpie to sign the back of large inkjet prints, but have wondered whether this is good practice.

[Ari]

Thanks OP for the post, i am interested in numbering a bunch of my 4x5 and 8x10 color negs and this has been helpful. I have the sleeves numbered, but id rather number the actual negs.

A rapidograph seems like agood way to go. I'm curious though, for those who have used used them, does the ink reactivate when wet? I ask because I am going to be fluid mount drum scanning so id need an ink that won't bleed in Kami.

And for those using a sharpie, do you have concerns about archivability? I have been advised to, and have used, sharpie to sign the back of large inkjet prints, but have wondered whether this is good practice.

Two excellent questions, so I'll bump this up.
Thanks to everyone for all the replies thus far.

[jp]

Sharpie isn't very permanent unless you give one to a two year old.

I write on RC test prints sometimes when under the enlarger, and often half the writing is gone after it's been 10 minutes going through the wet side.

I've written on wires to identify circuits with sharpies and after ten years they are severely faded to the point they are hard to read now. This was in a locked dark electrical cabinet. The surface was romex plastic sheathing.

I've touched up negative pinholes with a sharpie, but won't be wet-scanning them. If they fade away, I'm no worse than when I started.

I use sharpies on the tops of the printfile negative pages and it seems to last well on that over long periods of time, faring much better than the electrical wire. Perhaps it's because the pages in a binder are less exposed to air, I'm not sure.

[Bill Burk]

My 000 Rapidograph with Pelikan ink has been serving me well to write on negs since this thread started. It takes a bit of shaking to get it going and I know it is going to need a good cleaning. But it works fine. I am confident in the archival longevity. It does survive casual wiping but full on scrubbing will remove some of it. Another advantage is that I can read it with the infrared viewer. Other pens are invisible.

[patrickjames]

A small pen like the ones mentioned above is best I think. The one I use, which hasn't been mentioned yet, is a Sakura Pigma which is a pigment ink pen.

I am curious too whether the different inks survive wet mounting. Anyone know?

I am rather fond of fountain pens and Noodlers makes some inks that they call "bulletproof" that are designed to withstand all types of chemicals to prevent forgery. If you are using a dip pen those might be the way to go. Just throwing it out there.

[Robert Hughes]

I'm a fountain pen collector also! A word of caution for FP newbies - don't try to put India Ink through a fountain pen, it will clog up the ink channels and permanently ruin the pen. But India Ink in a steel nibbed dip pen is fine.

[polyglot]

I am rather fond of fountain pens and Noodlers makes some inks that they call "bulletproof" that are designed to withstand all types of chemicals to prevent forgery. If you are using a dip pen those might be the way to go. Just throwing it out there.

I just found this thread while looking for neg-marking pens... I too am a fountain-pen nerd and make occasional use of Noodler's, e.g. for envelope addressing and signing Very Important Documents. However I think it's worth noting that Noodler Black is probably not going to be a good idea on film because it relies on reactions with cellulose in the paper for its permanence and that's just not going to happen on a bit of acetate or estar (polyester). It'll probably dry down to greasy/smeary instead of impermeable, though I haven't tried it as I ordered a rapidograph and india-ink last night. India ink definitely dries a lot harder than Noodler because of its shellac content.


... now back to the grave, zombie thread!