Crash Course in Spot Metering?

[yeknom02]

I just got my brand new spot meter, a Minolta Spotmeter F. Now I'm wondering what I can learn to use this thing to its fullest potential. Let's say it's time to meter a scene. I typically point the meter to something that I think is kind pretty dark, that I'd still like to see some detail in. So far, this has only consisted of the darker portions of tree lines. (I can complain about how I take uninteresting photographs later...)

Then, I place this on "Zone 3" by hitting the shadow button, which subtracts 2.7 stops from the reading. I guess that I've really just placed it a hair above Zone 2, but it's very easy for me to just press that button.

Then I measure a bunch of other bright stuff that I don't want washed out. I do the math and if there's 5 stops of difference, I'm happy and make a note of it. I'd adjust the development time from N to N±m depending on whether the math results in an answer other than 5. I mean, I have no idea what my N developing time is, but perhaps determining that (and without access to a densitometer) could be a different discussion.

So with that, I'm going to ask (a) whether I'm doing something horribly wrong so far, and (b) whether there are any general tips on using a spot meter (my Minolta or just in general) and trying to get a basic Zone-System process down.

[Gem Singer]

Dan,

Sounds like you've got it down correctly.

When developing the film, start with the film's ISO speed and adjust from there.

Remember it's not rocket science.

[John Koehrer]

The zone system is vary sophisticated and will work miracles(!) But you're going to need more than just knowing what you have right now. There's a sophisticated process to needed to thoroughly understand it. Initially finding your true film speed(EI)and processing time. After that it's pretty much done by the numbers, plus/minus this value or that.

The book most often recommended is "The Negative" by Adams himself. IMO the more difficult to wade through. It's really dry.

"Camera and Lens" also by Adams is more basic and I think glosses over the details.

"the Ansel Adams Guide, Basic Techniques of Photography" by Schaeffer is a better compromise in my opinion.

[yeknom02]

John, I have The Negative, and I don't really find it dry. It is dense, though, and it took me a while to learn that N development stood for an expected range of 5 stops of detail-containing zones. I'm having a difficult time arriving at how I can possibly determine my base developing time, other than simply taking the manufacturer at their word. If you (or anyone for that matter) has a good idea of how to do that sans densitometer, I'm all ears. Oh, and also sans 4x5 enlarger. I would imagine there has to be a way to use a film scanner to do it...

My original hope for this thread was that I'd get some helpful tips for the spot meter. Like when I saw a video of Fred Picker walking up to the subject to take a spot meter reading. In general, I don't really like his style, but that blew my mind... that you didn't have to stand right next to the camera to take a reading.

[Leigh]

It's best to start with the recommendations of the film and developer manufacturers. They've put thousands of hours and millions of dollars into determining the right numbers for their products. DO NOT believe what you read on the internet. Everybody's different.

When you shoot a scene, make multiple exposures, both under and over the recommendations. If you're shooting black & white, I suggest +/- 1 stop, so the difference is obvious. As you develop proficiency you can reduce that spread.

Next item: Take copious notes. Make sure you have a system whereby you can correlate the notes with the individual exposures. As the films are processed, add that info to the individual entries.

Once you've built up a small library of shots, go through them on a light box and see which ones you think are best. Refer back to your notes to see if they fall into the normal or abnormal exposure range.

It's all about calibrating your individual system. You may need to adjust the film speed or development times to get optimum results for your particular shooting habits and practices.

- Leigh

[Brian Ellis]

The zone system is extremely simple. Meter the darkest area in the scene in which you want some detail or texture (i.e. something other than pure black). Take a meter reading. Reduce your exposure by one (Zone IV) or two (Zone III) stops (after you make a few photographs you'll know which works best for you, at least initially). That's your basic exposure. Then meter the brightest highlight in which you want detail or texture (i.e. something other than blank white). If that's two stops (Zone VII) or three stops (Zone VIII) brighter than the reading you got when you metered the darkest area develop for your normal time (for starters use the film or developer manufacturer's suggested time as normal). If it's only one stop brighter develop for more than your normal time. If it's four or more stops brighter develop for less than your normal time.

How much more or less you develop is established by testing (The View Camera Store will do the tests for you for about $30, I highly recommend using them rather than doing it yourself unless you just want the learning experience). They'll give you reams of information about your film speed and your normal, plus, and minus development times. But for starters you can consider 20% less than normal and 15% more than normal as your initial "less" and "more" times.

If you aren't going to test and you don't want to use The View Camera Store for tests just rate your film at half the manufacturer's speed to ensure that you get adequate shadow detail. If you find that your negatives are consistently over-exposed (too dense) try the manufacturers speed. If consistently underexposed cut the speed in half again. But I've done a lot of film speed tests both for myself and my students when I taught a zone system course and half the manufacturer's speed is right around where I and my students almost always ended up.

The meter you have isn't the ideal zone system meter. It was the first serious meter I bought but doing the math for the stop differences was a little tedious so I sold it and got a Pentax spot meter, which is ideal for zone system purposes.

This is all designed just to get you started with making good, printable negatives most of the time. After a while you'll be able to use the zone system for its real purpose, which is to work creatively and make something other than a technically "correct" negative when that suits your purposes.

[yeknom02]

Brian,

Thanks for the suggestion. What confuses me, though, is that I thought my own development times would be determined by too many personal variables for someone else to do. For example, how would the VC store be able to account for the fact that I use replenished Xtol as opposed to stock? In fact, if they're not testing with my development tools and chemistry, wouldn't they just be able to look up times off a database of previously tested film/developer combinations?

I've looked at their website but I don't see any information on this service.

[John Koehrer]

Yeah, What he(Brian) said.
Having someone else develop your negatives won't get the exact results that you will, simply for slight differences in technique/water and how you hold your lips :)

It will certainly get you VERY close. Close enough you may need the densitometer to find the difference.

[Leigh]

You can use the tests I described in post #5 above just as easily with a lab as with your own processing.

Just ask for their development details and include that in your notes.

You might start with five-shot tests, in half-stop increments, rather than the three-shot test that I suggested. You can easily distinguish them when compared.

Any decent commercial lab will have excellent quality control and repeatability, so you should expect the same results with every batch they do.

Commercial labs will do push and pull processing, for a fee. You may find that for your particular subject matter and shooting practices this is not needed.

- Leigh

[Bill Burk]

yeknom02

When you work with View Camera Store, they send you film to develop, you develop and return it, they tell you when you are in the ballpark, then you develop the rest of the film to various times.

Consistency is what matters most. Because you do the developing, you will have data that fits your processing habits.

[Brian Ellis]

Brian,

Thanks for the suggestion. What confuses me, though, is that I thought my own development times would be determined by too many personal variables for someone else to do. For example, how would the VC store be able to account for the fact that I use replenished Xtol as opposed to stock? In fact, if they're not testing with my development tools and chemistry, wouldn't they just be able to look up times off a database of previously tested film/developer combinations?

I've looked at their website but I don't see any information on this service.

You tell them what film you use, they send you six unexposed sheets of that film. You process that film in your chemistry for six different specified times and send it to back them. So if you use replenished developer to process your film their tests and the film speed/development time information they send you will be based on your film in that developer.

If you click on "BTZS Products" on the left-hand side of their home page and then scroll down you'll see a reference to their testing service. It doesn't go into any detail that I saw so if you have questions about it I guess you'd have to contact them. But I'm pretty sure they still perform this service, I believe I saw a reference to it in a post here a few weeks ago from Fred Newman, the owner of The View Camera Store.

[Panoman617]

So how would this work with E-6 film???

[Brian Ellis]

So how would this work with E-6 film???

How would what work? If you're asking how the testing service mentioned above would work, it wouldn't AFAIK but I've never asked. I've only used it for b&w film. If you're asking about how the zone system in general works with color someone else will have to answer, I only use b&w film. I use a digital camera for color.

[yeknom02]

I got in touch with Fred and we've been discussing the service. He actually sends you five sheets of film pre-expposed with a calibrated step tablet and you process each one for one of five pre-set development times. So all the development is according to your own chemistry, equipment, etc. You send the film back, and he does the sensitometry measurements and data analysis, and presents the results back to you, giving you a measure of your true film speed and your personal development times (N, N+1, etc.)

The only thing I worry about is the cost once you have more than one film or developer. I will probably have to pick one film and developer for a while.

Back on topic, I had a heck of a time metering a scene for a shot last night. I will try to scan and upload the results later.

[ki6mf]

Here is a good link for doing your testing. It covers film speed, development time etc. Iy walks you through on a step by step basis without pie in the sky verbiage.
On the landing page look for film speed test & development speed test links.

http://www.jerryo.com/teaching.htm