Using a Speed Graphic Focal Plane Shutter in other LF cameras for barrel lenses?

[Asher Kelman]

For studio work dependent almost entirely on flash for lighting, a accuracy of the shutter speed is not important. For natural light and long exposures, the cap-uncap Galli method would work too. Between these extremes, a shutter for barrel lenses would be wonderful. I now need this to mount in the wall for a walk-in camera obscura (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=77580) I'm making. I'll be using this for Apo lenses such as the Nikkor 760mm, Germinar 750mm, Red Dot Artar 47 1/2 inches.


Keery Thalmann suggested to me that one can repurpose the focal plane shutter of a Speed Graphic for barrel lenses in other LF cameras. What a great idea!

1. Has anyone done that and can share pointers on repurposed Speed Graphic or similar shutters? It's a painful thing to rip apart a perfectly good speed Graphic. Still, it seems to be a very brilliant way of getting a shutter, way more advanced than a Packard, for so many different lenses. So, what are the limitations in the diameter of lens for such use? Is there a shutter workshop that you know has done this? Of course, I will ask SK Grimes, but perhaps someone already has experience and a straightforward solution or even another newer focal plane shutter that could be adapted.


2. Thornton Pickards: I'll add that I own a bunch of Thornton Pickard shutters but I fear the cords breaking. In fact one did when I was testing it! If they can be reliably repaired, then that would be great. I'll call Carol of Flutot when they open this afternoon.


3. Any effect of lens diameter and focal length on front camera mounted curtain shutters? Does the curtain shutter of a speed Graphic or Thornton Pickard in front of the lens or behind the lens standard give different speeds with different diameter lenses and focal lengths or to the various factors cancel themselves out? I know front-mounted Packards are used with the Apo Germinar 750mm, but then is the speed different dependent on lens use when a larger diameter lens is fitted instead?

This subject was brought up here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=51309) discussing a so-called Focal Plane Shutter, (a gravity driven shutter that fits on the front of a lens), but the matter of whether shutter speed raised there and seemed to be a valid objection. After all, a small aperture lens would have a shorter time for passage of light than a wide lens!

So, does one need correction factors for the different barrel diameters and focal lengths for any front-mounted curtain shutters?

Thanks,

Asher

For the hi-tech folk, I did check on an LCD shutter, but they are limited to very narrow angle work or else the reflections and scatter floods the camera with unwanted diffuse light! Still, there may be something that will appear and if you find it, tell us!

[rdenney]

I have the carcass of a quarter-plate Pacemaker Speed Graphic that may someday become a project like this. I would mount the box backwards behind the front standard of a monorail view camera, probably fashioning a way to mount it Sinar-style so I can put it on my Sinar F. The smaller size would be plenty big enough for nearly all barrel lenses that can be mounted far enough forward.

Realize that you are limited to faster speeds only. The slowest my Pacemaker-era shutter will go is 1/30. Slower than that, and you need a felt had over the lens. That leaves a pretty big gap for a lot of large-format work, it seems to me. If the lens is one of those super-fast aero-ektars, though, it won't be a problem.

It's a little down on my project list, however. And if I found myself with an extra half a kilobuck, a Sinar Copal shutter would be a far more elegant solution.

Of course, you can always mount a barrel lens on a Speed Graphic.

Rick "not really sure it rises above doing it just because it can be done" Denney

[Asher Kelman]

I have the carcass of a quarter-plate Pacemaker Speed Graphic that may someday become a project like this. I would mount the box backwards behind the front standard of a monorail view camera, probably fashioning a way to mount it Sinar-style so I can put it on my Sinar F. The smaller size would be plenty big enough for nearly all barrel lenses that can be mounted far enough forward.

Realize that you are limited to faster speeds only. The slowest my Pacemaker-era shutter will go is 1/30. Slower than that, and you need a felt had over the lens. That leaves a pretty big gap for a lot of large-format work, it seems to me. If the lens is one of those super-fast aero-ektars, though, it won't be a problem.

It's a little down on my project list, however. And if I found myself with an extra half a kilobuck, a Sinar Copal shutter would be a far more elegant solution.

Of course, you can always mount a barrel lens on a Speed Graphic.

Rick "not really sure it rises above doing it just because it can be done" Denney


Thanks, Rick!

Asher

[domaz]

Adapting a Sinar Shutter might be a better idea. It has slow speeds too which makes it much more usable than a Speed Graphic IMO. KEH has a whole flurry of Sinar Shutters right now (http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Large-Format/system-Large-Format/category-Shutters?s=1&bcode=LF&ccode=38&cc=79048&r=WG&f). Some for well under a "kilo-buck".

[Jim Jones]

A 4x5 Anniversary SG with speeds down to 1/10 could be cut down and kludged onto a reversing back for many 4x5view cameras. This provides some extension for those long barrel lenses, too. One might also convert it to a Graflok back. A SG in original configuration is a great camera, but sometimes does even better when extensively modified. The Anniversary shutter may be friendlier to the amateur mechanic than the Pacemaker version.

[Asher Kelman]

Adapting a Sinar Shutter might be a better idea. It has slow speeds too which makes it much more usable than a Speed Graphic IMO. KEH has a whole flurry of Sinar Shutters right now (http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Large-Format/system-Large-Format/category-Shutters?s=1&bcode=LF&ccode=38&cc=79048&r=WG&f). Some for well under a "kilo-buck".
Thanks so much, Domaz,

Those Sinar shutters are very much a bargain if they do the job. There's a nice discussion on using the Sinar shutter here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=28760). I still have to find the specs to see what diameter it can go to.

Does it account for the diameter of the lens or is it "One shutter speed fits all!"

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

A 4x5 Anniversary SG with speeds down to 1/10 could be cut down and kludged onto a reversing back for many 4x5view cameras. This provides some extension for those long barrel lenses, too. One might also convert it to a Graflok back. A SG in original configuration is a great camera, but sometimes does even better when extensively modified. The Anniversary shutter may be friendlier to the amateur mechanic than the Pacemaker version.

Thanks, Jim,

I don't mind a bit of complexity! It's the best shutter solution! Which is the best made most accurate shutter for this purpose?

Asher

[Steven Tribe]

I have twice seen the focal plane section and 4x5" a back from a Speed Graphic mounted on the back of a mahogany plate to fit a larger camera, on offer on that auction site. Very well done too, in both instances. The separately sold rear focal shutters from F&S are, unfortunately, rare and expensive.

[Jim Galli]

Domenico Foschi had one like this that he used on a Kodak 2D 8X10. It was big clunky ungainly and a huge stress on the front standard which had to hold the weight of the mechanism and also account for the heavy brass lenses now being cantilevered out in front.

Also when it is in front you are NOT getting the advertised speeds. I once calculated that the eighth inch slit on one of those actually takes about 1/12th of a second to travel. At the focal plane right next to the film that means that during that time only the fraction of the film directly in front of the slit is being exposed. Out in front of a lens the light will go through the slit and fan out everywhere. I don't know how to calculate what an effective shutter speed would be in that case. Easier on a movie camera where you have knowns like shutter angle and rotation speed to work with.

Another thought; with a moving slit you cannot have any flash sync., something that seems to me would be a show stopper for your application. Far easier to let the flash decide the speed than fiddling with shutters. Packards and Sinar's can sync up easily with flash.

All of that aside, it did in fact work and Domenico got excellent results with his. Me, I've learned to live within the constraints of a Packard's 1/25th speed which is quite repeatable. The Sinar is far more elegant.

[Asher Kelman]

Domenico Foschi had one like this that he used on a Kodak 2D 8X10. It was big clunky ungainly and a huge stress on the front standard which had to hold the weight of the mechanism and also account for the heavy brass lenses now being cantilevered out in front.

Well, Jim,

If Domenico's camera withstands the weight, for sure my wall will hold it, LOL!!


Also when it is in front you are NOT getting the advertised speeds. I once calculated that the eighth inch slit on one of those actually takes about 1/12th of a second to travel. At the focal plane right next to the film that means that during that time only the fraction of the film directly in front of the slit is being exposed.

That's what I was worried about!


Out in front of a lens the light will go through the slit and fan out everywhere.

That I didn't think of!


Another thought; with a moving slit you cannot have any flash sync., something that seems to me would be a show stopper for your application.

So that's clarified and important info and much appreciated!


Far easier to let the flash decide the speed than fiddling with shutters. Packards and Sinar's can sync up easily with flash.

But the shutter transit time will be shorter for a narrow lens barrel, but I can calculate and even measure that.


All of that aside, it did in fact work and Domenico got excellent results with his. Me, I've learned to live within the constraints of a Packard's 1/25th speed which is quite repeatable. The Sinar is far more elegant.

Which Sinar shutter to choose that will take barrel lenses of the size I am using?

It seems that I should think of getting SK Grimes to make a series of slip on adapters for one Packard shutter. It seems that one really needs to measure the shutter speeds for each lens anyway.

Thanks, as always, Jim for your sharing of your experience!

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

Asher, have your vision checked again.

You plan to shoot with ISO 3 paper. You plan to shoot at f/16 or smaller. Take out a light meter and ask it how long an exposure will have to be in your "subject" room's ambient lighting. I betcha that 1/25 will be more than 2 stops too fast. Remember, you're going to use flash lighting that will be considerably brighter than ambient.

If so, you're home free with a Packard, and the largest Packard has a maximum aperture of 3 1/2", may force you to shoot no wider than f/16. See http://www.packardshutter.com/ for info on sizes and prices.

It would be a great kindness if you thought through the problems you're trying to solve before asking us to validate poor solutions to them.

You might also want to brush up on photographic basics; some of the questions you've raised here suggest that you're not as strong on them as you should be. If you want to take yourself back to school, the best beginners' text I know of is A. A. Blaker's book Field Photography. Blaker is a brilliant teacher and does a good job of laying out how to think like a photographer. After you've worked through Field Photography, visit John Williams' book Image Clarity.

I give you a related exercise. I used to shoot flowers and insects and such with a Nikon loaded with KM, ISO 25. My standard flash rig had me shooting at marked f/16 - f/22, effective aperture varying with magnification but typically from f/22 - f/32 (too small, but that's not the exercise's point). At 1/250, my little camera's highest flash sync speed, how much exposure did I get from ambient? Assume high noon, no shade. I hate using ND filters. Next question, why was I so pissed when Kodachrome processing went away and I was stuck with using ISO 100 film?

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, have your vision checked again.

You plan to shoot with ISO 3 paper. You plan to shoot at f/16 or smaller. Take out a light meter and ask it how long an exposure will have to be in your "subject" room's ambient lighting. I betcha that 1/25 will be more than 2 stops too fast. Remember, you're going to use flash lighting that will be considerably brighter than ambient.

If so, you're home free with a Packard, and the largest Packard has a maximum aperture of 3 1/2", may force you to shoot no wider than f/16. See http://www.packardshutter.com/ for info on sizes and prices.

It would be a great kindness if you thought through the problems you're trying to solve before asking us to validate poor solutions to them.

You might also want to brush up on photographic basics; some of the questions you've raised here suggest that you're not as strong on them as you should be. If you want to take yourself back to school, the best beginners' text I know of is A. A. Blaker's book Field Photography. Blaker is a brilliant teacher and does a good job of laying out how to think like a photographer. After you've worked through Field Photography, visit John Williams' book Image Clarity.

I give you a related exercise. I used to shoot flowers and insects and such with a Nikon loaded with KM, ISO 25. My standard flash rig had me shooting at marked f/16 - f/22, effective aperture varying with magnification but typically from f/22 - f/32 (too small, but that's not the exercise's point). At 1/250, my little camera's highest flash sync speed, how much exposure did I get from ambient? Assume high noon, no shade. I hate using ND filters. Next question, why was I so pissed when Kodachrome processing went away and I was stuck with using ISO 100 film?

Dan,

My first response was "res ipsa loquitur", as your writing really just expresses a part of you and your mindset today and as little reality beyond that. However, for the sake of clarity, and not being simply dismissive and for sharing how I approach this project, I'll try to answer all of your points in a fitting manner.


Asher, have your vision checked again.

For as kind as you sometimes can be, you are also somewhat of a rasping bear and just get going, letting of raging noise, without getting your brain into gear. Shake out of it!


You plan to shoot with ISO 3 paper. You plan to shoot at f/16 or smaller. Take out a light meter and ask it how long an exposure will have to be in your "subject" room's ambient lighting.

Ambient lighting is irrelevant for the planned portrait work with 32,000 watt.seconds flash! What are you smoking? Why would you ever imagine I'd think otherwise? That's where your fundamental problem is. Let me explain further. The shutter is mostly needed for it's synch capability, as I'm recording the reflection off the a sheet the thickness of Ilford paper with a digital camera to the side of the back of the lens inside the camera. The two will be synched together for the shutters and flash and I'll see the image on a 27" screen in the studio. When I'm happy with that and check focus inside the camera with a loop, (aperture wide open), then I'll place 8x10 sheets of Ilfochrome paper in key places on the vacuum easel and expose these as test. I'll process them in my new Jobo processor and then when they are perfect, will expose the full length 72" x30-50" Ilfochrome paper.

Now why would I also want a real speed like 1/25 second? Well I may try continuous lights to provide a portion of the light and save money! Its roughly $1-4 for each W.S, of flash power. so if 1/2 can be provided by continuous light, (bought used), then that's a huge savings.

I am going to visit a movie industry film grip store and do light meter readings and see if there's a cost savings on reaching the light levels I need.



I betcha that 1/25 will be more than 2 stops too fast. Remember, you're going to use flash lighting that will be considerably brighter than ambient.As far as the Ilfochrome is concerned, there is no ambient light unless I get cinematography floodlights as mentioned above! That I might do.


If so, you're home free with a Packard, and the largest Packard has a maximum aperture of 3 1/2", may force you to shoot no wider than f/16. See http://www.packardshutter.com/ for info on sizes and prices.

A Inside Diameter Opening Inches
B No. 5
C No. 6
D No. 6 Synchro
E No. 5 Electric
F Add for 4' Tube+Bulb w/fitting
G. Overall Size sq. inches


A......B........C........D........E........F........G
1½......$130..$160....$215....$330....$38....3¼
1¾.....$130...$160....$215....$330....$38....3½
2........$130..$160.....$215....$335....$38....4
2¼.....$140...$165....$220....$340....$38....4½
2½.....$140...$165....$220....$350....$38....4¾
2¾.....$150...$175....$230....$365....$38....5
3........$160...$185....$240....$390....$38....5¾
3½.....$170 ...$200....$260....$460....$38....6½
3¾.....$250...$295....$385.....$600...$38.....7
4.......$280....$330....$420....$670....$38....7½
4½....$320....$375....$475.....$725....$38....8
5.......$360...$415.....$525.....$875...$38....8½
6.......(CALL........FOR........PRICE)............10
7.......(CALL........FOR........PRICE)
8.......(CALL........FOR........PRICE)



Again you need to check first, LOL! Shutters are in stock up to 5" in diameter. A 7" one is also available. My 760 Nikkor is just over 10 cm in diameter at the rim and then it goes to about 11.5 cm. So a 5" shutter would work fine. The Germinar might also fit, but we'll just have to wait until it arrives. I can always get the 7" Packard. No issues at all!


It would be a great kindness if you thought through the problems you're trying to solve before asking us to validate poor solutions to them.
Dan, honestly, it's about time you got off this arrogant way of talking down to people. It's neither necessary nor appropriate. The fact that you also happen to be a storehouse of catalogued knowledge on lenses is a reason for still valuing you input, but that the attitude does what for you?


You might also want to brush up on photographic basics; some of the questions you've raised here suggest that you're not as strong on them as you should be. If you want to take yourself back to school, the best beginners' text I know of is A. A. Blaker's book Field Photography. Blaker is a brilliant teacher and does a good job of laying out how to think like a photographer. After you've worked through Field Photography, visit John Williams' book Image Clarity.

Dan, once again, you are so laughable here, it's just a blast when you go off like this!


I give you a related exercise. I used to shoot flowers and insects and such with a Nikon loaded with KM, ISO 25. My standard flash rig had me shooting at marked f/16 - f/22, effective aperture varying with magnification but typically from f/22 - f/32 (too small, but that's not the exercise's point). At 1/250, my little camera's highest flash sync speed, how much exposure did I get from ambient? Assume high noon, no shade. I hate using ND filters. Next question, why was I so pissed when Kodachrome processing went away and I was stuck with using ISO 100 film?

Dan,

Over the past 3 years I've delivered thousands of portraits. My work is used for branding, PR, advertisements in prestigious magazines, full page spreads and the most sophisticated brochures and campaigns. All are with studio flash and ambient light. If you give me you snail mail address, I'd be happy to send you a sampling of my work and then perhaps, you might put aside your unacceptable condescension.

In any case, had I thought, that anyone here really needed such very basic educational advice on how lighting works, for sure I'd send it privately. I have never ever done what you commonly do. I've looked at Photo.net at your comments to other folk and it's time to be a little more thoughtful. You are a good man, you just seem to get carried away.

Asher.

BTW, book suggestions are always appreciated.

[Jim Jones]

Even though the SG shutter transit time is slow, the actual exposure should be as indicated on the shutter. The shutter could be placed anywhere between the subject and the film, and this should still be true. It's like painting with light. I haven't actually tested it, though. It might take hours that I don't have to set up an optical bench and an oscilloscope as a shutter tester.

[rdenney]

Well, Jim,

If Domenico's camera withstands the weight, for sure my wall will hold it, LOL!!



Okay, now I know what you intend this for.

I don't think the Sinar shutter will be big enough for the size lenses you are considering. I saw an ad in the For Sale forum for a 40" Artar or something similar, and it had a flange diameter of 135mm for the f/14 lens. The Speed Graphic shutter is the size of the format, so even the 4x5 shutter will only be 4" nominal, maybe as much as 100mm, in the shorter dimension. That may be big enough. But it's much bigger than the Sinar shutter.

For your application, you could just build a shelf on the back side of the wall and clamp a Speed Graphic down onto the shelf. Remove the bellows and front standard, and drop the bed. Then, mount the lens on the other side of the wall. (I'm assuming the wall will be very thin--less than an inch--in the vicinity of the lens mounting. I would probably have a 3/4" plywood plate that I would use as a lens board, made large enough to mount the Speed on the back of it.)

When you unscrew the six screws holding on the back, the focal-plane shutter curtains will be right there, and you'll be able to see what there is on the part you just removed that you'll need to put back somehow. But you might just be able to remove the ground glass and go from there.

Given the aperture you'll need for depth of field greater than a nanometer, you're going to need lots of light. But you knew that already.

Edit: You won't be able to use electronic flash with the Speed Graphic focal-plane shutter. There is no setting of that shutter that provides a fully open shutter at any one instant. It achieves high effective speed by moving a slit, so you must have light that is continuous enough to be on during the entire transit time. You talked of strobes above, and if so, you'll be better off with the Packard shutter--it fully opens and then closes like a leaf shutter, but unlike a focal-plane shutter.

Rick "who has never handled lenses in this size category" Denney

[Asher Kelman]

Okay, now I know what you intend this for.

Yes, it does take a while to get across the needs of a crazy project like this. Thanks for your patience. If there are parts you think I have overlooked or not sufficiently defined, let me know.


I don't think the Sinar shutter will be big enough for the size lenses you are considering. I saw an ad in the For Sale forum for a 40" Artar or something similar, and it had a flange diameter of 135mm for the f/14 lens. The Speed Graphic shutter is the size of the format, so even the 4x5 shutter will only be 4" nominal, maybe as much as 100mm, in the shorter dimension. That may be big enough. But it's much bigger than the Sinar shutter.

When the lenses arrive, I'll post the dimensions so further suggestions can be made.


For your application, you could just build a shelf on the back side of the wall and clamp a Speed Graphic down onto the shelf. Remove the bellows and front standard, and drop the bed. Then, mount the lens on the other side of the wall. (I'm assuming the wall will be very thin--less than an inch--in the vicinity of the lens mounting. I would probably have a 3/4" plywood plate that I would use as a lens board, made large enough to mount the Speed on the back of it.)

When you unscrew the six screws holding on the back, the focal-plane shutter curtains will be right there, and you'll be able to see what there is on the part you just removed that you'll need to put back somehow. But you might just be able to remove the ground glass and go from there.

You didn't menton which Focal Plane "Graphic" type shutter would be best for this project with still life or floodlights with film. (Not use with 3 ISO paper, heaven forbid!).


Given the aperture you'll need for depth of field greater than a nanometer, you're going to need lots of light. But you knew that already.

DOF should be somewhere around 2.5 inches!


Edit: You won't be able to use electronic flash with the Speed Graphic focal-plane shutter. There is no setting of that shutter that provides a fully open shutter at any one instant. It achieves high effective speed by moving a slit, so you must have light that is continuous enough to be on during the entire transit time. You talked of strobes above, and if so, you'll be better off with the Packard shutter--it fully opens and then closes like a leaf shutter, but unlike a focal-plane shutter.

Rick "who has never handled lenses in this size category" Denney

Rick,

Your advice on mounting the Speed Graphic shutter will be of value with conditions where long exposure are possible as with still life or using faster film. Thanks very much for giving me a headstart on that. It's low cost and I should be able to do that myself.

For now, however, not having a synch capability, that shutter is ruled out for the main part of my project. Everything is geared for 3 ISO Ilfochrome paper. So I'll get going with ordering the front-mounted Packard shutter and adapters for each lens. I just have to receive my incoming lenses and as long as I can cover 750mm - 47 1/2, likely, most, (if not all the further lenses I'll buy), will fit too, with different ring adapters.

To start off, just to look at image circles, resolution, fall off and test the shutters, I'll use a fast film with patches of 4"x5" B&W film at strategic places in the image circle. I have to decide on a test target. I'll use a flat Imatest target and also a still life, moving the still life and Imatest target to be imaged on successive different parts of the image circle.

This way, I will not have to worry about getting enough flash power for the 3 ISO Ilfochrome paper and be able to calibrate the optical aspects of the system before spending a lot on flash to feed the 3 ISO of Ilfochrome paper at f 22.

Asher

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I don't think the Sinar shutter will be big enough for the size lenses you are considering. I saw an ad in the For Sale forum for a 40" Artar or something similar, and it had a flange diameter of 135mm for the f/14 lens.

It will depend on many factors, but lenses this large are definitely pushing the limits of the Sinar shutter (if you expect full coverage with no mechanical vignetting). My Sinar Norma era shutter has an opening of 75mm. A 42" Artar has a 110mm mounting flange thread size with a rear barrel diameter of about 101mm, but the diameter of the rear element is much smaller - about 78mm.

So, depending on what aperture is being used, how close the Sinar shutter can be placed to the rear element, etc. the shutter may, or may not. cause mechanical vignetting. It would be easy enough to check by making a few test exposures with a piece of cardboard with a 75mm diameter hole in it placed behind the lens.

It's looking more and more like a large Packard shutter may be the best solution.

Here's a photo, from the SK Grimes web site, of a 750mm f9 APO Germinar with a front mounted Packard shutter:

http://www.skgrimes.com/images/lenspics/750zeiss.jpg

Asher,

Have you thought about what kind of lensboards you're going to use? I suggest the ARCA-SWISS 171mm size. They are the largest readily available metal boards. To go bigger, you'd need to go with a wooden boards. For lenses this big and heavy, I'd feel safer using metal boards.

Kerry

[Asher Kelman]

Kerry,

Thanks for being so helpful! The front-mounted Packard looks great! I'll have a bellows made as a hood to recess the lens back,1-2 feet, into the camera room from a much larger wooden rim in a "lensboard" in the wall between studio and camera obscura.

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

Have you thought about what kind of lensboards you're going to use? I suggest the ARCA-SWISS 171mm size. They are the largest readily available metal boards. To go bigger, you'd need to go with a wooden boards. For lenses this big and heavy, I'd feel safer using metal boards.

I like the idea of the Technica 171 mm. It will be able to take the weight of the largest lenses! Maybe Adam can make an adapter board for a Sinar type lensboard. (They already have the 161.9 mm Cambo, (6 3/8"), in stock at S.K. Grimes and that takes Sinar boards). One of these solutions would also allow use some of my Chamonix (Sinar) lensboard-mounted lenses for whatever size paper or film they can cover. So, for example, a 600 mm Germinar, mounted on an 8x10 Chamonix board might be used on a smaller sheet of Ilfochrome, but still ULF, and with no need for a film holder. The vacuum easel should hold any size. I can see myself doing a variety of sizes in addition to 72 high x 20-50 inch wide Ilfochrome. Such paper can be still processed in the Jobo CAP-2 with a 3063 Drum.

However, the life-size Ilfochrome 72-84" high by 20-50" wide paper, will be rolled, dropped in a tube and processed in a pro lab.

Anyway, that's the grand scheme of things.

Asher

[Joerg Krusche]

Asher,

there was/is an Apo Germinar 750 Copal 3 factory mounted by Carl Zeiss-Docter Optics that would allow to get rid of some of the shutter issues ..You do not find them too often.. and if so they may be not cheap,

joerg

[Jim Jones]

. . . Edit: You won't be able to use electronic flash with the Speed Graphic focal-plane shutter. There is no setting of that shutter that provides a fully open shutter at any one instant. It achieves high effective speed by moving a slit, so you must have light that is continuous enough to be on during the entire transit time. You talked of strobes above, and if so, you'll be better off with the Packard shutter--it fully opens and then closes like a leaf shutter, but unlike a focal-plane shutter.

Rick "who has never handled lenses in this size category" Denney

The flash contacts on the focal plane shutter of my Pacemakers close a little before most slits begin to traverse the film gate. This permits the light from a slow-burning focal plane type flash bulb to build up to near maximum before the exposure begins. One exception is the "T" position. There the contacts close just after the shutter fully exposes the film gate to sync with any flash. A fast finger on a smooth running Pacemaker shutter could sync at about 1/4 second.

Another idea: the "T" flash contacts could be relocated to close just before the shutter curtain closes for an equivalent of rear curtain sync.

[Asher Kelman]

Asher,

there was/is an Apo Germinar 750 Copal 3 factory mounted by Carl Zeiss-Docter Optics that would allow to get rid of some of the shutter issues ..You do not find them too often.. and if so they may be not cheap,


Joerg,

That's a great idea if one appears. I wonder whether or not that takes away several stops? I'd be impressed if it was still f 9.0 or abouts. Still, one needs to mount he 47 1/2" Red Dot Artar. That, perhaps, might go in an Ilex #5.

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

The flash contacts on the focal plane shutter of my Pacemakers close a little before most slits begin to traverse the film gate. This permits the light from a slow-burning focal plane type flash bulb to build up to near maximum before the exposure begins. One exception is the "T" position. There the contacts close just after the shutter fully exposes the film gate to sync with any flash. A fast finger on a smooth running Pacemaker shutter could sync at about 1/4 second.

Another idea: the "T" flash contacts could be relocated to close just before the shutter curtain closes for an equivalent of rear curtain sync.

Jim,

That's something worth playing with. Do you think one can do that without destroying the Pacemaker or would one just sacrifice the grand old camera for the cause?

I'd still go for a prime solution right now with the Packard, as there are so many parts to put together and test in the entire camera.

Asher

[jp]

I've got a speed graphic for this sort of project the OP has proposed. I haven't adapted it yet. I intend to sandwich it between two lensboards and have it in front of the fron standard. One board to attach it to the camera, one to mate with another lensboard.

While it technically could be installed behind the standard to balance things weight wise, you'd have to remove it to cock it and open it, which would be a PITA.

Also on ebay check out 150627763348 ; more than my budget but a great idea.

The Sinar shutter is very nice, but it does not have a big enough diameter for lots of the old lenses.

If you stick with a 1-speed packard, you can use ND filters to provide more exposure options for a given aperture. I'm mostly interested in soft focus and thin DOF stuff for real old lenses, so I can't just stop it way down to get a workable leisurely shutter speed outdoors.

[Tracy Storer]

Sinar shutter sitting on my desk, max opening = 2.95" or 74.9xmm.
I think a Packard will suffice. 5" ones are probably not "in stock" but can be made. (I had to wait a couple weeks for a new 5" #6 a couple months ago, but it is nice)

[Hugo Zhang]

Asher,

I asked Ron to make a slip-on focal plane shutter that I use for my Xenotar 460mm lens which has a front diameter of 5 1/2" and it works.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=51309

Good luck with your project.

Hugo

[cyrus]

There was actually an 8x10 back attached to a Graphic on ebay last night. My first reaction was to whince at the butchering of the Graphic

[Asher Kelman]

Asher,

I asked Ron to make a slip-on focal plane shutter that I use for my Xenotar 460mm lens which has a front diameter of 5 1/2" and it works.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=51309

Good luck with your project.

Hugo

I read about that guy! Reminds me of Littman! Very independent and poetic descriptions! Didi you time it?

Asher

[Jim Jones]

Jim,

That's something worth playing with. Do you think one can do that without destroying the Pacemaker or would one just sacrifice the grand old camera for the cause?

I'd still go for a prime solution right now with the Packard, as there are so many parts to put together and test in the entire camera.

Asher

There should be plenty of Pacemaker SGs with good shutters, but in other ways beyond restoring to full functioning. There are also enough Pacemakers to satisfy those with the desire and money for a really clean one. I certainly wouldn't butcher a really nice camera, but a fixer-upper is better put to any use than thrown out.

[Kimberly Anderson]

A student of mine just bought a baby Speed Graphic ( 2 1/4 x 3 1/4) and I'm thinking of getting one myself. Chopping it up and making it a front mounted shutter don't bother me much...just looking for ideas to see if anyone else had finished this project and if so, how it was working.

:)

[Leicaf16]

Domenico Foschi had one like this that he used on a Kodak 2D 8X10. It was big clunky ungainly and a huge stress on the front standard which had to hold the weight of the mechanism and also account for the heavy brass lenses now being cantilevered out in front.

Also when it is in front you are NOT getting the advertised speeds. I once calculated that the eighth inch slit on one of those actually takes about 1/12th of a second to travel. At the focal plane right next to the film that means that during that time only the fraction of the film directly in front of the slit is being exposed. Out in front of a lens the light will go through the slit and fan out everywhere. I don't know how to calculate what an effective shutter speed would be in that case. Easier on a movie camera where you have knowns like shutter angle and rotation speed to work with.

Another thought; with a moving slit you cannot have any flash sync., something that seems to me would be a show stopper for your application. Far easier to let the flash decide the speed than fiddling with shutters. Packards and Sinar's can sync up easily with flash.

All of that aside, it did in fact work and Domenico got excellent results with his. Me, I've learned to live within the constraints of a Packard's 1/25th speed which is quite repeatable. The Sinar is far more elegant.

Hi Jim, hope you are well. I read your comment last night and it took a while to get my head around it. Surely the curtain speed is constant no matter where it’s placed. But then as I thought more about it I realised that because of the “fanning out” effect the film is being exposed for longer than if the slit was right in front of the film. So the shutter speed is still constant, but maybe the effective aperture of the slit is what is causing the increase in exposure? Just a thought. Knowing stuff is not my strong point :)