Sinar Norma questions

[jwanerman]

I have two questions about the Sinar Norma camera:

1. Are all Norma 4x5 backs spring backs, or are some graflok and some spring?

2. Normal in English = Normal in German. Does the name " Norma " refer to another
word, or is it the name of a woman?
Thanks all...

[Frank Petronio]

The Norma backs are "International" backs or effectively the same as Graflock backs, I guess it was a trademark issue? But even the folding metal focusing hood from a contemporaneous Graphic will fit a Sinar. And you can take an old Sinar Norma back and attach it to the latest P2 model perfectly.

As for the name... well, Marilyn Monroe was popular at the time...

[Steven Tribe]

If it was named after a female (which I doubt), Mr Koch in Switzerland may been looking south to Italy. Bellini's opera "Norma" was starting another 50's ikon, Maria Callas.

[philipmorg]

I've heard the camera was named after the designer's daughter.

[Steven Tribe]

The Norma is from 1947 - so too early for MM and Callas.
Daughter is a good bet- Like Mercedes with Benz/Daimler.

[Adamphotoman]

I believe it was named after his wife

[Adamphotoman]

I asked another friend and he said his daughter.
I have an email into Sinar. See if they know.

How Myths start Hey!

[Frank Petronio]

I believe the Sinar Norma was designed by the Oschwald brothers, for the Koch family, the owners of Sinar. The Oschwalds went onto to design and produce the Arca-Swiss cameras. That company was sold to the Vogt family. I could be wrong, I think Kerry Thalman wrote about this years ago.

I suspect the name is a clever acronym, as most photographic products were during that period. But it would be nicer if it were named for a woman ;-)

[Tony Lakin]

The Norma backs are "International" backs or effectively the same as Graflock backs, I guess it was a trademark issue? But even the folding metal focusing hood from a contemporaneous Graphic will fit a Sinar. And you can take an old Sinar Norma back and attach it to the latest P2 model perfectly.

As for the name... well, Marilyn Monroe was popular at the time...

"the folding metal focusing hood from a contemporaneous Graphic will fit a Sinar"


Never thought to try, just took the hood off my Speed, fits my Norma perfectly.

Thanks for the tip:) :)

[Adamphotoman]

Hey all,
Should we really demystify our folk legend? Well here goes. I went to the source and emailed the Sinar company and I got a reply. Here is the cut and paste version from my email. BTW Carl Hans Koch did invent the camera and he built them in his garage.


Quick same day response.
If you are the grandson of the Carl Hans Koch Famous for the Sinar Norma. Who was the Norma named after.
Grant

Dear Grant,

unfortunately there is no juicy secret behind this name; "Norma" was just the name of the basic kit of the view camera, as "Norm" means "standard" in German. Later people referred to any Sinar camera with green and polished parts (1948 to 1969) as "Norma".

I hope you still enjoy using this camera, even if it is just named after the word "standard".

Best regards,

Carl

[GeorgesGiralt]

Hello Grant,
I can ascertain that Arca did actually make the norma. they still have the blueprints and drawings. If I'm not mistaken, the Norma prototype was not working (and unable to) when Mr Koch approached the Oschwald brothers.

[Adamphotoman]

Hi George,
I imagine that Carl may have needed help and expertise. When I come up with a concept I go to experts for advice and I go to machinists to make parts. Carl may have subbed out various parts and then assembled them. His name is on the camera not Arca Swiss.
Are you saying that Carl did not invent the Norma?

[GeorgesGiralt]

I don't know. What I'm sure of is that someone I trust has been demonstrated the full documentation of the Sinar Norma at the Arca Swiss factory in France.
He told me that the whole bunch was very impressive, from soup to nuts. There where a process drawing for every part of the camera, from design to machining.
I wonder if a sub contractor would have access to all this documentation if it has not been part of the whole design. He told me that Arca had enough data to re-build the camera....
As the Arca Swiss company has changed hands and location, and Mr Koch is dead, I think we will never know the exact truth, but my opinion is that Mr Koch build a proof of concept in his garage then got a company with greater means than it's hands to finish the design and actually machine the camera. I think he has been clever enough to retain patents and design rights and this alone is a proof of the quality of the technician and business man he was.
His design was (and still is) one of the best as proven by the price these machine still sell for today. So it's design is impressive.

[Frank Petronio]

I believe the Sinar Norma was designed by the Oschwald brothers, for the Koch family, the owners of Sinar. The Oschwalds went onto to design and produce the Arca-Swiss cameras. That company was sold to the Vogt family. I could be wrong, I think Kerry Thalman wrote about this years ago.

According to what I read, the guy who started Arca, designed the Norma. The Koch family owned/made/sold the camera.

[rknewcomb]

I have also read of a connection between Arca and Sinar. And to muddy the waters even more, Plaubel was in there somewhere.

[Adamphotoman]

Hi All,
I emailed Carl again. So from the source...


Dear Grant,

My grandfather thought of a way to escape the negative sides of being a provincial allround photographer in the inherited studio, run by his widowed mother. During WWII, where he served in the Swiss air force as a captain in a radio division, he realized the shortcomings of the leading (Linhof-) view cameras for tasks in the studio, industry, nature, architecture and reproduction (thus the acronym "Sinar") mostly by not being modular enough.

In 1948 he had the first prototype made at an advanced camera repair shop whom he had given technical drawings made by his brother in law. He liked it a lot, changed it a bit and immediately ordered 5 more to show to his fellow professionals in the Swiss professinal photographers' association of which he was also president for a while.

They liked the ideas in the new design a lot. Linhof's engineers were less excited and were not interested in purchasing the idea and sent him home with words such as "if this idea was any good, it would have been invented at Linhof already". Needless to say that some of his new ideas appeared in Linhof cameras anyway...

Supported by his wife, he decided to start to market the cameras by himself. The camera repair and manufacturing company seemed to be the right bet and a not so waterproof contract was made with the owner of it. As the sales increased to never imagined levels, the transfer prices were not adjusted to reflect the economies of scale. Also, the success led to greed by the supplier and Oswald realized, that his sons, who did not sign the contract, could not be stopped legally to jump on the bandwagon and sell such cameras in competition to their main customer. When trouble started to strike the view camera industry in the 1990ies, Arca moved from Zurich to France, probably to reduce cost. They managed to keep the company to a minimum size and within the family.

All the Sinar drawings were still in Feuerthalen in the basement, in the former factory building, where Jenoptik, who bought the company off our family, left them. However they might not all get moved to Zurich, where a pro photo dealer has become the new owner of the brand.

All the best

Carl

[Frank Petronio]

Wow that is a very nice bit of history, thank you for inquiring directly and getting the straight answer. It is interesting to read into the "personalities" of the individuals and the brands themselves.

I am a big fan of the Sinar Norma. I like Linhofs and Arcas too, we're lucky to have such great tools to use.

[Adamphotoman]

Reading the History of Arca Swiss, They did not get into building cameras until the mid 1950's. 7 years after the (Norma). The Sinar Norma original concept and plans were Carl Koch drawn up by his brother in law and then built at a camera repair shop which much later became Arca Swiss. Sheesh!!
What came first the horse or the cart?

Oh well,
All these photographic instruments are world class!!!

[Frank Petronio]

I've had the early Arcas too, and while they are affordable, good cameras, their plastic parts and use of foam light seals are definitely short comings compared to the Sinar Norma. However they are a bit lighter - Ansel Adams used the old Arcas ;-p

[David Lindquist]

I've had the early Arcas too, and while they are affordable, good cameras, their plastic parts and use of foam light seals are definitely short comings compared to the Sinar Norma. However they are a bit lighter - Ansel Adams used the old Arcas ;-p

And before that a Sinar Norma 5 X 7, plus a 4 X 5 back. In my notes from a 1972 workshop (egad!, it's a typewritten transcript!) I have "No longer has the Sinar (a heavy 5 X 7), uses a 4 X 5 Arca Swiss. Not as sturdy, but sturdy enough and doesn't rely on base tilts." He used the Sinar, among other cameras, to do the photographs for the centennial of the University of California, published in the book _Fiat Lux_. This work was done in the early 1960's.
David

[jayabbas]

Thanks to Adamphotoman for " gettin it from the source " ! I bought mine from a long time photographer here in Az and he claimed his was the 1st or 2nd Norma in the state( believe that time frame to be 1957-58 ). Ever since I have been on the lookout for historical perspective on this jewel. Except for the silly yaw problem the camera is a pleasure to use ( even in the field "Minor White style"). Would'nt it be great if we could see some of those factory blueprints. Kudos to all who use this fine tool.

[Adamphotoman]

Hi folks,
My name is actually Grant. My handle is adamphotoman... and there is a long story behind that too...boring...!
But thanks for thanking me. Moto-Go to the source to the folks that know
My first Sinar was an Alpina which was also marketed as Fox and A1.My second Sinar was a P.
The interesting thing about all of the Sinar products is that they constantly underwent changes.
My Norma or should I say Normas have all become hybrids. I have three front standards and 1 rear 4X5 standard. Each of the front standards have improvements. Minor details such as the engraving on the scales through to the newer standards having more machining to accept the newer style p backs.
So my studio version which stays semi-permanently on a tripod; uses 2 P2 style rail clamps fastened to a 19 1/4 inch Sinar made bar. I use a Norma front standard, an intermediate Norma style standard, and a P rear standard and P2 4X5 Spring Back with lifting leavers. On the front I use a long legged f2 intermediate standard compendium hood and 4 blade mask hood 2. This gives me the best of the best for us with a Betterlight to copy art.
The location Norma is all old Norma except for a newer P back. I sold several Normas to get a complete kit but I did not like the weak springs in the old Norma 4X5 Back. My scanning insert is just too heavy and needs more support=robust springs.

Here is a pic of my Norma.. The hybrid will have to wait till I make an image.
G

[Daniel Unkefer]

This is fascinating reading, and I thank you for bringing it to our attention here.

I'm also a huge Norma fan, and have been acquiring and using my Norma system for over thirty years.




Hi All,
I emailed Carl again. So from the source...


Dear Grant,

My grandfather thought of a way to escape the negative sides of being a provincial allround photographer in the inherited studio, run by his widowed mother. During WWII, where he served in the Swiss air force as a captain in a radio division, he realized the shortcomings of the leading (Linhof-) view cameras for tasks in the studio, industry, nature, architecture and reproduction (thus the acronym "Sinar") mostly by not being modular enough.

In 1948 he had the first prototype made at an advanced camera repair shop whom he had given technical drawings made by his brother in law. He liked it a lot, changed it a bit and immediately ordered 5 more to show to his fellow professionals in the Swiss professinal photographers' association of which he was also president for a while.

They liked the ideas in the new design a lot. Linhof's engineers were less excited and were not interested in purchasing the idea and sent him home with words such as "if this idea was any good, it would have been invented at Linhof already". Needless to say that some of his new ideas appeared in Linhof cameras anyway...

Supported by his wife, he decided to start to market the cameras by himself. The camera repair and manufacturing company seemed to be the right bet and a not so waterproof contract was made with the owner of it. As the sales increased to never imagined levels, the transfer prices were not adjusted to reflect the economies of scale. Also, the success led to greed by the supplier and Oswald realized, that his sons, who did not sign the contract, could not be stopped legally to jump on the bandwagon and sell such cameras in competition to their main customer. When trouble started to strike the view camera industry in the 1990ies, Arca moved from Zurich to France, probably to reduce cost. They managed to keep the company to a minimum size and within the family.

All the Sinar drawings were still in Feuerthalen in the basement, in the former factory building, where Jenoptik, who bought the company off our family, left them. However they might not all get moved to Zurich, where a pro photo dealer has become the new owner of the brand.

All the best

Carl

[Sevo]

Reading the History of Arca Swiss, They did not get into building cameras until the mid 1950's. 7 years after the (Norma). The Sinar Norma original concept and plans were Carl Koch drawn up by his brother in law and then built at a camera repair shop which much later became Arca Swiss.

Ah, I've wondered, as I actually own a hybrid - a Arca 4x5" Reflex body with Sinar Norma base attachment and a rear Arca/front Sinar bellows, and none of it looks modified or home made.

[Adamphotoman]

Well now here is another Norma question. One of my standards is loose on the rail.
The (glued in?) sliders have worn to the point that it takes quite a force to lock the standard down onto the rail. Then the metal on the standard's (rail clamp) almost touches itself. I suspect the only thing is to contact Sinar to see if any parts are available or perhaps I will need to remove the (sliders) and shim them if I can remove them in one piece or an adhesive teflon tape to build the slider up...
Ideas?

[jayabbas]

Well now here is another Norma question. One of my standards is loose on the rail.
The (glued in?) sliders have worn to the point that it takes quite a force to lock the standard down onto the rail. Then the metal on the standard's (rail clamp) almost touches itself. I suspect the only thing is to contact Sinar to see if any parts are available or perhaps I will need to remove the (sliders) and shim them if I can remove them in one piece or an adhesive teflon tape to build the slider up...
Ideas?

As a fix you can use Scotch 3m #8422 film splicing tape. Just build it up in a layer to suit your needs. This stuff sticks well and is amazingly friction free when sliding over smooth surfaces. Clean existing slider and area around it and tape should adhere quite well. Give it a try

[Richard Wasserman]

I think I would use UHMW tape. http://www.mcmaster.com/#=dk48h4

[Adamphotoman]

Thank you Richard,
I will try some of the tape. Hopefully it will bond to the plastic like material used in the Norma standards. There has to be something as the [sliders} were probably glued in the first place.
Grant

By the way, You can find a very nice and useful DVD on CLA of the Norma made by one of our members Philip Morgan. Find it under the business heading...
Grant

[jayabbas]

I think I would use UHMW tape. http://www.mcmaster.com/#=dk48h4

A better choice indeed. Looks to be just what will work. I need to get some of that stuff.:)