Sinar Pan/Tilt Head Advantages?

[dagabel]

Hi All,

I have a very basic question - could someone explain the advantages of the Sinar pan/tilt head for Sinar monorails (I have an F1)? There are many recommendations for them on this forum, but I'm just trying to understand how the 1-way tilt is better than, say, a 2-way tilting geared head such as the Manfrotto 410, etc.

Weight is not a primary concern, since I don't walk more than a couple of miles with my F1 (and my tripod is the Feisol CT-3371).

Thanks very much!
Duane

[Frank Petronio]

The camera rotates in yaw from the tripod mount. It would be better to think of the tripod mounting block as part of the tripod head and treat it like a quick-release for the camera.

Sinar also makes (or made?) an adapter so you can mount a non-Sinar smaller format camera using the tripod mounting block.

All of the Sinar tripod mounting blocks fit into retractable key stops on the head, so they fit very nicely and feel integrated.

The two-axis design is very simple, lightweight, and strong -- the same head will hold a heavy 8x10 tilted downwards. It also has a low profile, which makes transporting the tripod easier since there are no long handles or delicate geared or ball head mechanism to bang around in a tripod bag or grip kit.

The classic older movie tripods, like the Ries, meant for heavy 35mm movie cameras and the like, are also two-axis designs. But the Sinar has a larger, smoother pivot.

Nothing is the matter with the better Gitzo, Manfrotto, Arca, etc. designs except that they are heavier, weaker, and have crappier quick releases. The geared Manfrotto 410 is a nice head but a different design philosophy, it is much more complex and delicate, as you'd expect a geared head to be.

If you have a Sinar, these are the best part of the entire Sinar system, their single best product. When you see one, you'll "get it", it simply feels right.

If you don't use Sinar, I like the Linhof 3-way heads best.

I got a tattoo of a Sinar Pan-Tilt in a private area, I love them so much.

[cdholden]

Frank,
Back when I was wandering the Everglades with a 35mm and long lenses, I thought my 405 (the 410's big brother) was the best thing since sliced bread. I used it for a year or so until I accepted a very generous offer for it and a set of 3036 legs with my Deardorff 8x10. I'm currently using a Majestic tripod and geared head. I wouldn't hesitate to go back to the 405 with a solid tripod if one were to show up at my front door.
How does one have more appreciation for the Sinar with 2 axis control over something solid with 3 axis control? Is it just the feel? It seems like if both are solid, the 3 axis option would be of more use.
I must confess. My no-no spot is sans tattoo... at least for now. But then I've never used the Sinar pan/tilt head.

Chris

[Richard Wasserman]

Frank nailed it. If you are using a Sinar camera, the Sinar head is simply the best.

Come on Mr. Petronio we want tat photos!

[Frank Petronio]

You have 3-axis controls with the Sinar but you need the tripod mounting block and a Sinar camera (or adapter).

While a geared head will be... geared, the Sinar moves very smoothly and locks very securely, holds a great deal of weight, and is a very simple, elegant design.

If you've only used choppy, stiff 3-ways heads like the Gitzos, then moving to a geared head would be nice. But if you had a smooth head like the Sinar you might not ever feel the need ;-)

Of course if your view camera is something other than a Sinar then you're out of luck, the adapter is meant for smaller cameras.

Ahh the tattoos are sagging, it now looks like Zorba the Hutt.

[rdenney]

Consider your F mounted on a Sinar head:

You have yaw (horizontal pan) in the head. You have roll (side to side tilt) using the round rail in the rail clamp. And you have pitch (fore and aft tilt) using the tilt control in the head. The quick release is in the easy way the rail drops into the rail clamp. Nothing is duplicated, and the design can be extremely robust despite small and relatively light packaging.

With a 410, you have all three movements and the (Manfrotto-non-standard) quick release in the head, which means two roll mechanisms and two quick releases. Movements are duplicated at extra weight and bulk that comes without extra rigidity.

Frank has it right--it works because the head, tripod adapter, and rail attachment mechanism work as an integrated design with no waste.

Rick "who tried the 410 first with an F and learned the expensive way" Denney

[dagabel]

Thanks Frank!

So with the Sinar head the tilt is front-to-back, correct? If so, how is side-to-side leveling accomplished? With the tripod legs? I'm currently using an old borrowed Bogen 3-way head, and I confess I use it for side-to-side leveling instead of really dialing in the legs precisely.

Thanks for your patience with these basic questions!

Duane

[dagabel]

Oh thanks Rick - now I can visualize it!

Thanks again all, I appreciate your responses.

Duane

[Brian K]

Frank is right on. If you use a sinar then you should use the pan tilt. Unless you do still life in the studio in which case you want the sinar vapo geared mounting block which has incredibly smooth and fine adjustments.

When I was using my sinar for my landscape work i would leave the plastic ring on the rail and then pop it into the rail clamp which was always mounted on the pan/tilt head. It was a really fast quick release. If you plan on using a heavier sinar or a long rail, or just like to carry the camera around attached to the tripod then get the rail clamp II which has a metal strap/bracket that goes over the plastic ring and locks in place far more securely than just the rail clamp I does.

[dagabel]

Brian - thanks for the additional response.

As I'm looking at a few candidates on the auction site, I notice that some are labeled "Norma." Would this fit the rail clamp of my F1?

Thanks!
Duane

[Frank Petronio]

Yes those are green and maybe the knobs have a different profile but otherwise they are the same quality and design as the later black ones.

I rarely see them go for less than $200 but I wouldn't pay over $300 for one.

[dagabel]

Thanks Frank. I now have one on the way, so we'll see how it works out; I'm looking forward to using it.

Duane

[cdholden]

Frank, If photography isn't treating you well, maybe you should consider the used camera market.
It looks like you just made a sale. I must confess I'm curious too.
How about a mall kiosk for starters?

[Frank Petronio]

I didn't have any horse in this game (or any others really). I just like to see people use these great cameras (and Linhofs and other high quality brands). I think it's a shame how people get these pretty-wooden-complex-toy cameras and then grow frustrated and quit....

[Greg Lockrey]

I didn't have any horse in this game (or any others really). I just like to see people use these great cameras (and Linhofs and other high quality brands). I think it's a shame how people get these pretty-wooden-complex-toy cameras and then grow frustrated and quit....

Or try to do a cheaper work around for a TANK that really isn't that cheap. ;)

[BennehBoy]

I had a 410 head, it really could not cope with the weight of my P2: Obviously your F1 is lighter, but think about glass, holders, filters, hoods, focusing cloth etc, with all that stuff it would pendulum like hell. I picked up a Sinar Pan/Tilt after reading Franks enthusiastic endorsements, and can wholeheartedly say it is brilliant. Rock Solid, compact, and just a joy to use - oh and I shoot an 8x10 converted P2 now and it never moves once locked in.

[andreios]

"Thanks" to this thread I am hunting for one as well - to replace my old Arca Swiss monoball, which to be honest has its best years passed... Obviously it's not the best idea to use a ball head with a monorail, but that was what I had. Hope it'll get better with the sinar head.

[Peter De Smidt]

"Hope it'll get better with the Sinar head."

It will. I have an Arca B1. I love it for digital and medium format rangefinders, but I'm not a fan for using it with a Sinar. It does work pretty well with an Arca camera, which is no surprise.

I also have a Manfrotto 410. It's a very good head for getting precise placement. I use it with a Toyo AX 4x5, and when I shoot digital macro. While certainly usable with a Sinar 4x5 in some situations, I don't recommend it generally.

[Ed Richards]

The pan/tilt is really key to the design of the camera. Sad that it usually costs as much as the camera. With the pan/tilt and the Sinar binocular viewer, the camera is really fast to use.

[andreios]

I've been offered a pan/tilt head from FOBA brand - does anyone know them? Are they usable? Thanks!

[Peter De Smidt]

Foba stuff tends to be very high quality.

[Frank Petronio]

The Foba isn't the same item but some of the heads are the same diameter as the Sinar, it depends on the head. I doubt they have the keystops that the Sinar head has.

[cdholden]

After some recent gear sales and trades, I arrived at work to find one of these Sinar heads waiting for me in my cubicle.
I've not had a chance to put it to use yet, but I'm really surprised by how small it is. I was expecting something about twice its size.

[Louis Pacilla]

After some recent gear sales and trades, I arrived at work to find one of these Sinar heads waiting for me in my cubicle.
I've not had a chance to put it to use yet, but I'm really surprised by how small it is. I was expecting something about twice its size.


Hey Chris it can't be beat when using a Sinar. I don't use it with other cameras because of the lack of two way . But man it's nice with a Sinar.

[cdholden]

I'll be taking the 5x7 P along for the ride when I go back to the Knoxville/Gatlinburg area in a couple of weeks.

[jesskramer]

Duane,

I am pretty sure I have an extra one at home that I can offer to you for a reasonable price.

I can send you some pics of it if you like.

Jesse

[cosmicexplosion]

Duane,

I am pretty sure I have an extra one at home that I can offer to you for a reasonable price.

I can send you some pics of it if you like.

Jesse

Am also interested if it goes with an 8x10 sinar

andrew

[cdholden]

Yes, they work with 8x10. I have 5x7 and 8x10 backs. I put the 8x10 on to put it under stress. No such luck. It didn't appear to be stressed. While smaller than I expected, it is very solid design and construction.
I grabbed my digisnapper and took a few pics of mine last night. I'll post photos later today.

[rdenney]

I have a Sinar tilt-head and also an Arca-Swiss Monoball (the first design that is between the B-1 and the B-1g in size). Looking at the structure, the Sinar head is easily several times stronger (and stiffer) than the ball-head. And that ball-head is not exactly accused of being flimsy.

Comparing it to a Bogen 3047 and a Manfrotto 229, both of which have been their biggest and strongest head at various times, the Sinar head is a stronger design. The lack of a lateral axis allows a very strong design without being bulky. Of course, the round Sinar rail in its rail clamp provides the lateral rotation. None of the three axes of movement are duplicated when that head is coupled to a Sinar camera, and the result is less bulky and heavy without any compromise at all in strength. Putting a Sinar on a three-axis head provides redundant movements on at least one axis, which can't help but add bulk and weight for the same strength and stiffness.

Rick "who admires efficient designs" Denney

[Frank Petronio]

Ditto, the legs will collapse before the head fails.

Another near-equivalent head is made by FOBA and it is not Sinar-specific, but similar quality, and it has movements in all 3-axis. However it is larger and heavier, and very expensive:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/247458-REG/Foba_31_0118_ASMIA_Double_Pan_Tilt.html

I actually owned one for a short while, when I got it at a bargain price. It really requires a #5 Gitzo to be balanced and it would hold almost any 8x10 or ULF camera you could imagine. It feels like you could use it to adjust the Super-Collider or something on the forefront of human achievement....

Linhof also makes a pan-tilt: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31380-REG/Linhof_003668_90mm_Leveling_Pan_Tilt_Head.html and I am sure it is wonderful. And their 3-axis head is nearly $2000.

For the money, the Sinar is the champ!

[cosmicexplosion]

Rick "who has made me larrf" Denney


ok so not your original quote,

but your sign off has won a fan and i just wanted to have a go, you know like doing a Hendrix lick on the guitar.

Andrew

[peter ramm]

I have an 8x10 P2 mounted on one of those dual rail clamp arrangements. Whole thing is quite heavy with a big lens mounted. I find the Sinar rail clamp (first gen) tends to let go in tilt, unless I tighten it as hard as I possibly can. The Foba clamp is better as things get heavy. Is this normal or is my Sinar clamp out of whack?

Photo: I think I can I think I can....

[Frank Petronio]

Well... maybe you found the limit? But you could always insert a higher friction washer into the stack, or thicken the stack of washers around the main cylinder.

But probably the Foba head is ultimately more robust, it is heavier.

[rdenney]

Well... maybe you found the limit? But you could always insert a higher friction washer into the stack, or thicken the stack of washers around the main cylinder.

Or reposition things a bit to balance better on the head when the camera is tilted.

Rick "who doesn't have the book handy to see if there is not supposed to be grease on those friction washers" Denney

[Frank Petronio]

Doh...

Well that sure is a really pretty camera, I know it weighs a ton.

[Armin Seeholzer]

I have the Arca Mono Ball the Plaubel and the Sinar. My Sinar holds a P full downwards, but I need a bit more force then with the Plaubel, witch is the stronger of the two, but also heavier. But the Sinar needs about every 30 year maybe a service.

Im not so happy with the monoball, but I'm not a fan anymore of any Ball heads!

Cheers Armin

[Steve M Hostetter]

The sinar pan tilt head will only do two movments and that is pan and tilt.

You use you rail clamp for leveling by loosening it and leveling the camera left to right.

If you had a leveling rail clamp you wouldn't have to loosen it but I've never seen a used leveling rail clamp on the used market.. A new one is like 2200.00

The advantage to the sinar pan tilt head is as Frank mentioned, low profile, light weight, positive stop with tension knob, cosmetics match the camera

[Mark Sampson]

Now if I could only afford one; having read through this thread I'm convinced that it's the best head to go under my 4x5 Norma. Then I could dump that 3047 for good and all...

[Frank Petronio]

He's talking about this one, quite rare:

SINAR GEARED RAIL CLAMP
411.71.000

http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/accessories/60-sinar-p3-zubehoer/195-kamerabasis

[dagabel]

Duane,

I am pretty sure I have an extra one at home that I can offer to you for a reasonable price.

I can send you some pics of it if you like.

Jesse

Jesse - thanks much for the offer, but I actually acquired one shortly after I initiated this thread. And ... I love it!

Thanks everyone for your contributions.
Duane

[peter ramm]

Or reposition things a bit to balance better on the head when the camera is tilted.

Rick "who doesn't have the book handy to see if there is not supposed to be grease on those friction washers" Denney

Actually, the balance shown is not too bad. That 200mm is heavy! More generally, things get complicated with the dual clamp rail. Note that each of the standards is almost conflicting with the rail clamp closest to it. Really, the front clamp should be behind the standard but then you can't focus wide angles. There is probably a permuation of standards and clamps that will allow better balance. I just need to identify it.

I think Frank said it best and I have found the limit. Anyone want to trade a more massive head for a Sinar?

Actually, this brings up a whole 'nuther topic. Moving that monster from place to place is REALLY scary. Balancing it on a plate while trying to screw in the 3/8 bolt is really a job for two people. I would love to work out a very sturdy quick release that I could put on the bottom of the flat rail. Guess I could make a couple of holes and bolt an AS adapter under there. Any better suggestions?

[cdholden]

Here's a few pics of mine. Don't mind the mini-grill or fire pit off to the left.

59233 59234 59235

[Peter De Smidt]

Peter,

Mount the plate with two attached rail clamps to the tripod. After that, lower the camera rail onto the rail clamps and tighten one of them. Trying to mount the whole camera to the tripod head by yourself is not a good idea.

You might also investigate whether the plate really helps. In my case it didn't really. the whole thing was about as springy with it as without. I found a bigger gain in stability moving from the old style rail clamp to the newer one that has the piece that goes over the top, which is called (I think) a "rail clamp 2". Going back to your picture, I see that you already have one. That's a good thing.

[Frank Petronio]

I thought the purpose of the large plate with two rail clamps was for longer set-ups with long lenses? But for a 200mm lens it seems like overkill since the P2 should be pretty rigid in stock configuration... but you would know better having compared it both ways?

[William Whitaker]

What Frank said. I have the large Sinar plate for use with my Norma 8x10. But the reason I have it is for longer lenses at portrait ranges. It seems like it would be more work than it's worth for a 200mm lens.

Me personally, I wouldn't think of mounting the 8x10 on an AS quick release, especially as an add-on. It's simply not adequate.

[peter ramm]

Peter,

Mount the plate with two attached rail clamps to the tripod. After that, lower the camera rail onto the rail clamps and tighten one of them. Trying to mount the whole camera to the tripod head by yourself is not a good idea.

You might also investigate whether the plate really helps. In my case it didn't really. the whole thing was about as springy with it as without. I found a bigger gain in stability moving from the old style rail clamp to the newer one that has the piece that goes over the top, which is called (I think) a "rail clamp 2". Going back to your picture, I see that you already have one. That's a good thing.

I need to move the camera from my office to the "studio" (actually an aircraft hangar) every time I use it. Means taking it off a storage stand and putting it onto something I can shoot with. That's why I look for a convenient way to go from support to support.

I am not sure "rigid" applies to any of this stuff. I was shooting with just the rail clamp 2 but was having issues with sharpness on the 200mm, and possibly other lenses. Hence the plate which is a real PIA. It does keep the camera rail from bending though. I have actually had two rail sections separate suddenly without it. Now that calls for fast reflexes.

Actually, I don't know if the vibration problem was in the head or the support. Things got better when I stopped using the 5 series Gitzo and went to the Foba stand. Even with that the whole thing is far from rigid once it gets up above six feet or so (10' stand).

So I will follow your suggestion and try the single rail clamp on the studio stand - at least with short lenses. With the longer ones, I think I will feel safer with the plate and stick with the Foba head.

[Frank Petronio]

Just curious, you could see a difference at each step?

Adding the twin clamp base?
Going from the tripod to the stand?

(Other suspects could be vibration from the large shutter. Film flatness. And the nature of the testing itself)

My experience has been that you can make any 8x10 shake when you're manipulating it, loading the holder, etc. but if you allow it to "settle" before making the exposure that it returns to a steady neutral position.

If you take your precautions I would say you're in the minority as to how people use these cameras, and I wonder if they would also see the differences?

Frankly I wonder, since the ultimate steady camera support would be bolting the camera to a concrete structure, so at what point do you notice the difference and get improved sharpness?

[Armin Seeholzer]

Peter on this pictures up there this Gitzo ist not strong enough for a Sinar 8x10 in my opinion. I prever the old norma clamp over the newer ones its lower in profile its a pitty for very short lenses like my 47XL with 4x5 but works good with all my 8x10 lenses!

Armin

[peter ramm]

I didn't mean to steal this thread and my problems are pretty specialized. Frank, I will try to watch the settling time. As to what made a difference - dunno. I added the twin clamp base and went to the stand at the same time. Real reason for the twin clamp base is that, one day, I was tilting the camera on the Sinar head (single rail clamp) and the camera rail separated at a join with one standard heading for the concrete floor. Didn't know I could still move so fast.

The Sinar rail design can't handle much bending torque so (when tilting) it is a fine thing between keeping the head clamped enough to provide a bit of hold, and loose enough to tilt easily. Adding the plate completely avoids the separation problem.

That said, it should not be an issue with short lenses. There I am not using a great long camera rail with its associated leverage on those little union joints. Peter's observation is encouraging and I will now go back to the single clamp with those lenses.

As to concrete, point taken. You only need so much stability for film photography but my problems were not subtle. Plate after plate had that fuzzy look. My own suspicion is that the problem arose when I got lazy and started using the Gitzo more. Armin is right and the little tripod just doesn't cut it for a fully squawked studio rig. It is rock solid with my digital stuff but feels really springy with the 8x10. I'll stick with the old studio stands (IFF and Foba). Once I have done that for a while I can start a new thread reporting any consistent observations.