Convertible Symmar 150/265 tested..

[Cor]

I finally did a test with my old Schneider Symmar 150 mm 5.6 lens, which is convertible to 265 mm by un-screwing the front element. I used the 265mm configuration once (on my Tech III not so handy, it uses up the full bellows at infinity), and was not impressed: it was quite soft. I have read otherwise so I wanted to do a more careful test.

It ain't conclusive in the sense that I own only one such lens (but the 150 mm is in my opinion a good performer, I am satisfied with it, granted I never tested it against the latest APO Symmar-S, but I only do B&W and use modest enlargements), and exposed only 2 sheets.

Last Sunday, under a grey sky I exposed 2 sheets of MACO (aka EFKE) PL100 at 50 ASA and souped it in ID-62, and used a Jobo310 on a roller for the first time (to many new things in one experiment, but it worked out ok).

I enlarged both negatives full frame to a sheet of 8*10 B&W paper and scanned these: (I did not apply any sharpening, which I usually do a bit)

Symmar 150mm at f22, 1/2 sec exposure

http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/Hantumahuizen150f22.jpg

Symmar 265mm at f32, 1/2 sec exposure

http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/Hantumahuizen265f32.jpg


And here are 2 100% crops:


Symmar 150mm at f22, 1/2 sec exposure

http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/Hantumahuizen150f22crop.jpg


Symmar 150mm at f32, 1/2 sec exposure

http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/Hantumahuizen265f32crop.jpg

As you can see (I hope) the test is pretty clear, at least I will not use this lens in the 265mm configuration.

Does this confirm the experience of other 150/265 Symmar lens owners?

Best,

Cor

[rdenney]

Did you refocus the lens after stopping down in the longer configuration? The aperture is in front of the lens, and there will be a focus shift as you stop down.

Of course, when converted the lens is a triplet, but it should still perform pretty well when stopped way down.

Rick "who has a 180 convertible Symmar but has not used the longer focal length for anything critical yet" Denney

[Cor]

Hi Rick,

Good point, but I guess it would have been very hard/impossible to re-focus at f32, the light wasn't that bright to start with.

Were would the plane of focus be after stopping down, behind the wall of the church, of in front of it ? The tombstones and other details in front of the wall are also soft.

At an assumed distance of 25 meters to the church wall from the camera DOF at f32 (265 mm) would be 13.25 m in front of the wall and infinity behind the wall (Bob Wheelers Vademecum), that should take care of an assumed focus shift?

Best,

Cor

[Vaughn]

Sort of -- but to keep it apples to apples, it might be better if one's comparisons have the focal plane at the wall of the building for both images. While the DoF will make the wall to be acceptably sharp if the focus is not right on the wall, it still will be not as sharp as possible...and that is what you are trying to find out.

But your results may still be the same.

[Scotty230358]

Steve Simmons, in his book using the view camera, suggested that performance does fall off when using a convertible lens at its longer focal length.

[Ole Tjugen]

Performance DOES fall off when a lens is converted, but not as much as that!

First of all, don't rely on DOF to save you when doing critical sharpness comparisons - it just doesn't work for that.

Second, when focusing the converted lens move the aperture while inspecting the GG with a good loupe. You should be able to see how the image is affected by changing aperture, and thus chose the correct way of focussing with "focus shift". It's something that cam be seen much more easily than it can be explained, but I promise you that with a little practice you will never again worry about focus shift - because you focus the correct way in the first place.

The Symmar, when converted, suffers from chromatic aberration in the outer half of the frame. So in order to make a fair comparison, use the centre of the frame, or a strong monochromatic filter.

[Floyd Waller]

I have the same experience with my Linhof select 150/265. It is sharp as a tack at 150 but goes really soft at 265, however my similar 180/315 is very sharp at both focal lengths. I am very pleased with the results at 315 except for the camera being a huge wind sail with that much extension. Both are later model black face shuttered Linhof selected Symmars. I got the 180/315 first and so impressed with it that I was sorely disappointed when I tried the 150/265 at 265. Oh well, it is still a very good 150!

[Cor]

Ole & Vaughn: I see your point.

OTOH the first image I shot in the 265mm configuration was a long street from the beginning of the street, lined with sticking out shop signs: I focused on a sign about halfway the street, even I was off due to focus shift, something in that scene should have been sharp (dis regarding camera shake), and it was not

All in all I do not think I will use that lens in 265mm, although I will check for this focus shift, just to check what happens.

Floyd: it is nice to see a conformation, although it's strange that your 180/315 does no show it, it is the same lens design. That 315mm is out of the question with my bellows though.

best,

Cor

[Vladik]

Seems to me more like a motion blur. Look at the eaves, there´s quite obvious double line, don´t you think? It wouldn´t be any wonder, if you need full extension of your camera.

[IanG]

I have the same experience with my Linhof select 150/265. It is sharp as a tack at 150 but goes really soft at 265, however my similar 180/315 is very sharp at both focal lengths. I am very pleased with the results at 315 except for the camera being a huge wind sail with that much extension. Both are later model black face shuttered Linhof selected Symmars. I got the 180/315 first and so impressed with it that I was sorely disappointed when I tried the 150/265 at 265. Oh well, it is still a very good 150!

Something sticks in my mind about the older 180mm Symmar, Ole or someone like Dan Fromm or Kerry Thalman may remember but I think the design was slightly different to all the other Symmars this may well be why it performs differently - better split.

Ian

[Cor]

Seems to me more like a motion blur. Look at the eaves, there´s quite obvious double line, don´t you think? It wouldn´t be any wonder, if you need full extension of your camera.

Cannot exclude it, but the relative heavyTechIII with my carbon tripod is a pretty solid combination (even at max bellows), and it wasn't that windy, it was 1/2 second exposure, but like I said..cannot exclude it, but I do not think so, I paid attention..

Best,

Cor

[l2oBiN]

I think there is definitively motion blur in the image. Reshoot it taking care to avoid motion blur.

[DanK]

Seems to me more like a motion blur. Look at the eaves, there´s quite obvious double line, don´t you think? It wouldn´t be any wonder, if you need full extension of your camera.


I think there is definitively motion blur in the image. Reshoot it taking care to avoid motion blur.

+1

[cjbecker]

Sorry to bring this older thread, But does the front element just unscrew like the rear one does. I have this lens and i can’t get the front element off.

[dsphotog]

Yes, C.J. it's supposed to unscrew.

[cjbecker]

Well bummers, I can't get it off.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

If it's stuck threads due to corrosion (and not impact damage), try "Kroil". Best darn penetrating oil in the world. Judiciously applied drop or two will wick into the threads overnight to get you unstuck.

[GeorgesGiralt]

Hello !
Get a tube from a bicycle and cut a square in it.
Use the square rubber pad as a "glove" to help your hand stuck to the front element and it should help you unscrew it ! (at last you would have all the torque in your hand availlable !)

[cjbecker]

I will investigate it more. I might be using some of that to loosen up the threads.

[E. von Hoegh]

I will investigate it more. I might be using some of that to loosen up the threads. Kroil truly is great stuff, but "a drop or two" is WAY too much. Unless, that is, you want it to creep into all sorts of places it shouldn't. Kroil will creep EVERYWHERE.
I don't think you can get the oil directly onto the threads, either, which would be the only place to apply it.
Best to try the rubber inner tube approach.

[cjbecker]

What the rubber inner tube approach?

[redu]

I think the loss of sharpness is a mutual product of diffraction (f22 -> f32) and simplification of the optical system. Nothing unexpected here.

[gtmatias]

Hello,

I'm starting in 4x5. I really like that way of taking pictures (and because I like the control in architecture contest) . I only have one problem: budget.

For that reason I started building pinhole cameras. Now, after some time, my first lens camera has been built. First lens: Schneider Super Angulon f8.

Now, I've started looking for a 150mm'ish and found this cheap and convertible (fantastic!) lens.

What do you all think comparing is later ones and Sironar's?

This is my setup (right now)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160101/aab62d4115dfa81baa985c8c9cfbeee1.jpg

Thank you!

[John Kasaian]

Hello,

I'm starting in 4x5. I really like that way of taking pictures (and because I like the control in architecture contest) . I only have one problem: budget.

For that reason I started building pinhole cameras. Now, after some time, my first lens camera has been built. First lens: Schneider Super Angulon f8.

Now, I've started looking for a 150mm'ish and found this cheap and convertible (fantastic!) lens.

What do you all think comparing is later ones and Sironar's?

This is my setup (right now)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160101/aab62d4115dfa81baa985c8c9cfbeee1.jpg

Thank you!
Symmars are fine lenses. If you do your part, it should serve you very well.

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. OP, how much extension does y'r camera have? I ask because I can't tell from the picture.

A 150 mm lens will need ~ 150 mm extension to focus to infinity, more to focus closer. A converted 150 Symmar will need, according to Schneider, 325 mm of extension to focus to infinity. So using the rear half of a 150 Convertible Symmar may not be possible with your camera as it seems to be.

[gtmatias]

Thank you John,

If there is any other lens suggestion according to that budget?
For obvious reasons (age) most of the reviews suggest more recent lens. Either way, there great older lens (or obscure).

Dan, because of the focal length, I've been using a bag bellows to provide more movement.

As for the camera itself, I designed it to be compatible to lens from 72mm to 210mm+. It has no Racks or pinions. It has only one sliding Base with a breaks to fix the focus.
So, if with a small amount of work, it's possible to put it working with bigger focal lenghts

More images:

Closed (with lens)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160101/4f9cd438918c111996753abb763aff4a.jpg

Opened
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160101/47d3e26a840dcde253f80e689658e716.jpg

150mm'ish configuration (with the 90mm lens)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160101/c4227dfe9beef72d9f5f673b392a7343.jpg

Thank you

[Dan Fromm]

There are many 150/5.6 lenses that will suit you. Any from the big four (in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock, Schneider) will be better than good enough. Convertible Symmars are probably the least good of the lot and they're good enough. Price and condition matter much more than brand.

[John Kasaian]

Keep in mind that what test ultimately matters most is the one done with your own "eye" Any of the lenses from the manufacturers Dan Fromm listed are going to be just fine(I'd add Kodak, Ilex, Wollensak, Zeiss, Goerz and others to the herd as well) for a "taking" lens.
I suggest when critiquing your own lens, trust your own eyes, not the numbers on somebody Else's chart. Variations between different samples of the same lens by the same manufacturer do exist. Charts are excellent guides, but it can be a little like not going outside because the computer says it's raining instead of looking out the window and seeing for yourself.
My 2-cents and probably worth lot less :o
If you shoot your Symmar in the 265 configuration, a yellow filter will help performance. This seems to be the case with all convertible lenses--I've forgotten why exactly but I'm sure Dan Fromm or one of the other lens gurus here can supply the nitty gritty.

[Andrew Plume]

good build - well done you

good luck

regards

andrew

[gtmatias]

Thank you for the "yellow tip"

I've been reading a bit about this subject and many opinions differ about this lens, for example. Some hate it, some say it is one of the sharpest lens. I understand the age problem, regarding optical qualities. It's a thing that, for now, must be "somehow" ignored. Even so, I would like to have nice results.

I found this Rodenstock Sironar N (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/150mm-f5-6-Rodenstock-Sironar-N-MC-lens-in-Prontor-Professional-01-shutter-EXC-/262211897027?hash=item3d0d0c06c3:g:tsYAAOSw4UtWSfJT) which uses a Prontor. I like this one because it is possible to make multiple exposures without touching the lens. What do you think about this one comparing in terms of optics with the Symmar?

[Bill_1856]

Seems to me more like a motion blur. Look at the eaves, there´s quite obvious double line, don´t you think? It wouldn´t be any wonder, if you need full extension of your camera.

Agreed. Shaky tripod, perhaps?

[Bob Salomon]

Thank you for the "yellow tip"

I've been reading a bit about this subject and many opinions differ about this lens, for example. Some hate it, some say it is one of the sharpest lens. I understand the age problem, regarding optical qualities. It's a thing that, for now, must be "somehow" ignored. Even so, I would like to have nice results.

I found this Rodenstock Sironar N (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/150mm-f5-6-Rodenstock-Sironar-N-MC-lens-in-Prontor-Professional-01-shutter-EXC-/262211897027?hash=item3d0d0c06c3:g:tsYAAOSw4UtWSfJT) which uses a Prontor. I like this one because it is possible to make multiple exposures without touching the lens. What do you think about this one comparing in terms of optics with the Symmar?

I am not sure what you mean by "not touching the shutter". The Prontor Professional is a self cocking shutter but you do need to still trip the shutter release for each exposure. Either by hand or with a cable release. Just like you would with a Copal or Compur or any other mechanical shutter. You just don't have to recock the shutter before each shot.

[gtmatias]

I am not sure what you mean by "not touching the shutter". The Prontor Professional is a self cocking shutter but you do need to still trip the shutter release for each exposure. Either by hand or with a cable release. Just like you would with a Copal or Compur or any other mechanical shutter. You just don't have to recock the shutter before each shot.

Sorry, I meant not having to touch the lens, because of the self cocking shutter. Because of that I use the cable instead of the hand!
You're right!

[Bob Salomon]

Sorry, I meant not having to touch the lens, because of the self cocking shutter. Because of that I use the cable instead of the hand!
You're right!

You do know how the two cable release sockets on this shutter work?

[gtmatias]

For what I know, one is used when taking the picture and the other opens the shutter for focusing. Why?

[Bob Salomon]

For what I know, one is used when taking the picture and the other opens the shutter for focusing. Why?

The second one also is the press focus to be able to view at taking aperture. As you press the cable release in that socket you will feel a slight detent and that is the taking aperture preview position. Press further and it is fully open for focusing and composing. It is much easier to use if you can also find the remote controller for the shutter. Then you just turn the knob to open aperture, open shutter or to taking aperture with open shutter of to shutter closed aperture at taking aperture, ready to fire. The other two positions block the shutter's release.

[gtmatias]

But what about the lens? Symmar Vs Sironar N?
lol

[Bob Salomon]

But what about the lens? Symmar Vs Sironar N?
lol

Sironar-N covers 72 degrees at f22 at infinity. Symmar covers 69 degrees. You should like the N better.