Help needed at 75mm

[Rod.F]

Hi all, hoping to get some advice about 75mm lenses. I've just got a Chamonix 045n-2 (my first film camera) and am looking for its first lens. I realise that 75mm is on the rather wide side for a first lens, however living in Hong Kong and wanting to take the types of photos I do, I think that it's the right one for me.

I initially looked at Rodenstock Grandagon N, first the f6.8 but then to the f4.5. I figured I would be using it around twilight most often so the ground glass might be too dark, right? And I would prefer more movement out of the lens, to let me enjoy using a large format camera for the first time. From there I looked at the Caltar-II N version as it seems to go cheaper, both are the same lens right? This seems to be the main option from Keh.com (I'll be buying second hand) - not a place I'd necessarily buy from but it seems to have a solid reputation.

So from there I have been to ebay to looked at the alternatives, but succeeded in only overwhelming myself. The other options seem to be the Nikon 75 f4.5s, Fuji 75 f.6 and Schneider 75 f5.6 (can't afford the 72XL).
- The Nikon seems to have the widest aperture and also image circle (at 200mm), but from the two listings I have seen (at around us$450) seems to be the cheapest... which makes me wonder why? Is it lacking in any way, like no multi coating?
- The Fuji seems interesting, athough I can only find two and there's a big price difference between the two of them ($819 vs $575). The cheaper one is the only lens out of all that I have looked at that is for sale in Hong Kong, so I have asked to have a look. Does anyone know anything about this lens? I gather that it is more popular in this part of the world than in the West.
- The Schneider, actually I don't know anything about this one other than the specs look quite good.

Would I be right in thinking that the Nikon and Fuji wouldn't need a centre filter? And would all or any need a recessed lens board?

Sorry if that is too many questions, this is my first foray into large format photography and I am hoping to minimise my mistakes, or at least not make them costly! I've tried reading around but it's got to the point where I need a bit of help.
To reduce it to one question: if you had $400 to $700ish (no need spend it all :)) to buy a second hand 75mm lens for use in lowish light for architectural/cityscape coloured photos, what would you pick?

[Jim Noel]

I don't work in color so can't help you there. All lenses this wide benefit from a center filter made by the lens manufacturer.

[Brian Ellis]

Any of those lenses probably would be fine if in good condition, no need to agonize over which one to choose. Pick one based on condition (to the extent you can tell), reputation of seller (ditto), price, weight, size, image circle, and other specs. You're correct that all other things being equal, a wider maximum aperture will be easier to focus and compose. Multi-coating vs single coating isn't a big deal, I've owned a lot of single-coated lenses and they were fine though a single coated lens should sell for less than a multi-coated. No coating at all is a bigger deal.

The brand and condition of the shutter is an important consideration and you don't say anything about the shutters. I preferred Copal shutters since that's the only brand that's been made for quite a long time and will usually be newer than other brands, plus parts are probably more readily available if it needs a repair. Avoid any seller who tells you that the shutter has a problem but it can be easily and inexpensively fixed just with a CLA.

Fujis are fine lenses, the only reason I know of that they may seem to be more popular where you are than in the U.S. is that Fuji hasn't had a U.S. distributor for quite a few years. I don't know for sure if the Caltar and Rodenstock are the same lens. They probably are but the company that branded Caltars sometimes had deals with other manufacturers. I'm sure someone here can tell you for sure.

You'd probably want a center filter and a recessed lens board with any of them but I've never owned any of them. FWIW I did have an 80mm lens and used a recessed lens board but didn't need a center filter with b&w film. However, you don't necessarily have to rely on what someone says here about either of these things. You could try whatever lens you buy without these things and buy them later if it turns out that you need them.

To answer your last question, and without knowing anything more than what you say here about these lenses, I'd buy the Nikon if it and the shutter are in good condition. It apparently has the widest image circle, lowest price, biggest maximum aperture, and Nikons were fine lenses.

[William Whitaker]

I have the Nikkor SW 75mm ƒ/4.5 and it's a very fine lens. I don't shoot much 4x5, so can't give you a comprehensive review. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one again, though. I do like the fact that it's slightly faster than most of the other 75's and thus a little brighter on the ground glass.

Mine is mounted on a recessed Technika board. The camera I use it on probably doesn't need it, but I had the board already, so I chose to use it to give me a little more working room. Whether or not you need a recessed board will depend on your camera.

The need for a center filter is because of the nature of wide angle optics and not because of a deficiency in any particular lens. The filter helps to compensate for the natural fall-off of illumination toward the edge of the field. Whether or not you need to use one will depend on your printing methods and personal taste.

I think it's safe to say that most any modern lens is going to be very good. I would use speed (ƒ/4.5 vs. ƒ/5.6) and price/availability on the used market as my determining factors. The Nikkors do seem to run less expensive than others, but I've been very happy with mine. Someone with more 4x5/architectural experience may have other suggestions.

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/75swnikkor_2.jpg

[Leigh]

Another factor to consider is the "flange focal length" (FFL) of the lens. This is the distance from the lensboard to the film when focused at infinity. It's not the same as the focal length.

For short lenses, the FFL is usually a bit longer than the focal length. The three 75mm lenses in my computer database have FFLs from 81.3mm to 85.1mm.

The FFL determines whether or not you can use the lens on the camera at all, and if it requires a recessed lensboard, such as the one shown in Will's post above, or a "bag bellows". Generally you use a standard lensboard with a bag bellows, or a recessed lensboard with a standard bellows.

You can find the FFL on the manufacturer's data sheet for the lens of interest.
The Nikkor 75/4.5 has an FFL of 81.3mm. The Fujinon SWD 75/5.6 has an FFL of 85.1mm.

I have the Nikkor 75/4.5. I agree with Will that it's a very nice lens. WRT center filters as mentioned above, Nikon never made any for their lenses.


- Leigh

[Rod.F]

Thanks all for the answers so far. I will take on board the information about the shutter - admittedly something I neglected. As to the centre filter, I will likely get the lens first and see how much I need the filter. Seems I am leaning towards the Nikkor at the moment, so thanks for the picture (it's a beautiful camera) and advice with regards to coating Will and Brian. Is it possible to determine if a Nikkor has multi, single or no coating from its serial number?

Leigh, thank you for bringing the flange focal length to my attention. I checked the other two lenses, the Rodenstock Grandagon-N 75/4.5 has an FFL of 82mm and the Scheider Super-Angulon 75/5.6 has an FFL of 82.4 (coated) or 84.8 (MC). I understand what the lengths are but how I am meant to use them to determine if I can use the lens on my camera?

[Thom Bennett]

Rod,

I've been very satisfied with my Fuji 75mm. See this previous thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=56144&highlight=75mm+Fujinon

[Ole Tjugen]

Rod, the very few mm difference between all these lenses is hardly significant - unless your specific camera has some kind of "hard limit" on minimum extension or some point where a bag bellows becomes absolutely necessary.

To the best of my knowledge only Schneider and Rodenstock are old enough as lens makers to ever have made uncoated LF lenses, and since that was before WWII and thus also before the current generations of wide angle lenses, that is not really relevant.

LF lenses tend to have relatively few glass/air surfaces, so the difference between single coating and multicoating is a lot smaller than in other formats. A modern zoom lens for 35mm (or dslr) may well have 20 lens groups, giving 40 surfaces - very few LF lenses have more than 8 surfaces.

Personally I have ended up with mostly Schneider lenses, from 47mm XL to 360mm - but that is pure coincidence and if I had started over from scratch it might just as well have been some other brand. The difference is, in almost all cases, totally negligible.

[Leigh]

I understand what the lengths are but how I am meant to use them to determine if I can use the lens on my camera?
Suppose, for example, that the minimum bellows draw on your camera is 90mm.

That means you need a bag bellows or recessed lensboard to use any of the 75mm lenses under discussion, all of which have FFLs in the 8xmm range.

A recessed lensboard 5mm deep would only let you use lenses with FFLs >= 85mm. A 10mm deep board would let you use any of them.

A bag bellows will generally let you use even the shortest lenses, but not always. You must check the specs for the particular camera.

- Leigh

[engl]

I use a Fuji SWD 75/5.6 on my Chamonix 045n-2 and I'm very satisfied with this combination. I have it mounted on a flat board which does allow me to reach the edge of the image circle, however, one has to be careful about bellows vignetting in portrait orientation doing so.

I'd probably be equally happy with a good sample of any modern 75mm F4.5-F5.6 wides. I like Fuji because I've had good experiences with them, my Nikon 65/4 was not as good as I'd want.

[Brian Ellis]

Chamonix says the minimum bellows draw on your camera is 52mm.http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/45.html

So bellows draw won't prevent you from using a 75mm lens. However, without a bag bellows and/or a recessed lens board your ability to use movements may be restricted more than you like. I'd suggest buying the lens and seeing for yourself how much your movements are restricted. Then if you think you need a bag bellows or a recessed lens board you can get one.

The actual focal length of virtually all lenses varies slightly from the stated focal length. Manufacturers usually round numbers off. So any 75mm lens you buy might really be 74.6 or 75.8 or whatever. But I've never found or heard of that being a practical problem for anyone.

[Scotty230358]

I own and use Fujinon SWD 75mm with a maximum aperture of f5.6. Although my camera will accommodate this lens without using either a bag bellows or recessed board I have found it more convenient to use a bag bellows. It is a sharp contrasty lens although not as easy to focus as my longer lenses as the image on the ground glass is not as bright. However I do have the luxury of having a Boss screen fitted to my camera which makes things easier.

I have found, with this lens, that a centre filter is not essential. I am a monochrome worker so can't say if this would be the same for colour work.

[Rod.F]

Thanks Brian and Leigh for putting me right about bellows and recessed boards. I imagine that if I get a lens without a board included then I'll buy a recessed one as my first board. The Chamonix bellows seem to be ok from the specs, but I will consider bag bellows in the future if needs be. Ole, thanks for the multi coating info, I didn't realise that coating had been around for such a long time!

Tomorrow I am going to look at a Fujinon SWD 75mm f5.6 (this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170642643614&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123) one to be exact), so I appreciate your replies Scotty, engl and Thom. It's priced at about $450 (buying cash in hand). What types of things should I be looking for when I look at the lens? Looking for scratches and damage to the glass, what about testing the shutter?

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks Brian and Leigh for putting me right about bellows and recessed boards. I imagine that if I get a lens without a board included then I'll buy a recessed one as my first board. The Chamonix bellows seem to be ok from the specs, but I will consider bag bellows in the future if needs be. Ole, thanks for the multi coating info, I didn't realise that coating had been around for such a long time!

Tomorrow I am going to look at a Fujinon SWD 75mm f5.6 (this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170642643614&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123) one to be exact), so I appreciate your replies Scotty, engl and Thom. It's priced at about $450 (buying cash in hand). What types of things should I be looking for when I look at the lens? Looking for scratches and damage to the glass, what about testing the shutter?

There are lens experts here and I'm not one so I can't tell you a whole lot about what to look for with the lens except the obvious - scratches, coating rubbed off in places, dings, dents (especially on the outside ring where a filter would screw on), that sort of thing. Also look at the aperture blades and make sure they aren't bent or covered in grease or oil. Lenses can have other problems such as fungus and separation but I can't tell you what either looks like. For a non-lens expert like me and probably you, it's mostly a matter of inspecting the lens closely under a bright light and seeing if anything looks weird.

You can't really test the accuracy of shutter speeds without testing equipment. But you can put the shutter on B and T and make sure it isn't sticking as it closes. Do that three or four times in fairly quick succession, make sure it closes without sticking each time. Then check each speed from slowest to fastest and see if it sounds like the shutter is getting progressively faster as you move from one speed to the next. It can be hard to tell once you get into the faster speeds but at slower speeds you can tell. That won't confirm that the speeds are correct but at least you know they're moving in the right direction.

[Alan Gales]

I'm no lens expert either but I have seen fungus. It looks weblike when it starts. Google lens fungus for photo examples.

You can expect a few dust specks in the lens. Sometimes even brand new lenses have a speck or two. If you see a lot of dust or anything that you don't know what it is then pass.

I have never seen a lens with separation but if you google lens separation I'm sure you can find some example photos.

[Leigh]

People tend to emphasize the condition of the glass when discussing used lenses.
That's fine... I would never buy a lens that showed any glass problems whatsoever.

However, I put more faith in the appearance of the metal. That's what gets handled.

There should be absolutely no blemishes of any kind on any exterior surface.
A tiny nick or scratch could indicate that the lens has been dropped or otherwise mis-treated.

Simple wear, as opposed to damage, could indicate that the lens has been used in a commercial studio, which is not good.

In short, I expect a used lens to look like a new one in all respects. If not, I walk away.

All of my gear looks as good as the day it was unpacked. I've had some of these items for over 50 years.

- Leigh

[engl]

The only lens I have had that performed worse than expected was also the only one that was in perfect condition. My top performing lenses all have hints of being used, such as some minor scratches where the cable release has bumped into the shutter body. I'd never buy an abused lens though, such as one with a bent filter ring which implies the lens has bumped into something hard or been dropped.

I have mostly assumed that lenses that look like new look that way because they are optically poor and do not get used, or has been bought by some rich beginner and left in a camera bag. That guy would probably not have the sense or understanding to return it if was soft.

A lens which has been used in a studio is probably going to be optically great. It might have a more worn shutter, but getting shutter service is easier than finding optically good samples of lenses.

I see usage as a sign of approval from another active photographer, and unlike Leigh, consider signs of use and signs of abuse as different things.

[Leigh]

A lens which has been used in a studio is probably going to be optically great. It might have a more worn shutter, but getting shutter service is easier than finding optically good samples of lenses.
I see usage as a sign of approval from another active photographer, and unlike Leigh, consider signs of use and signs of abuse as different things.
Well, each of us holds an opinion, and they're all worth the price the reader pays. ;)

My classic example of use is the Hasselblad 500-series cameras. Those that have been abused exhibit serious paint loss on the light baffle near the bottom, where the film magazine attaches. This is simply an example of users who don't care about their equipment. It only takes a fraction of a second to seat the magazine correctly.

Just an example (and admittedly not LF :rolleyes: ).

= Leigh

[Rod.F]

Thanks all for the advice, I can see both side of the argument for lenses in perfect condition - not too sure which side to take though! Sadly I missed my chance with the Fuji lens, some early bird got in there whilst I was still at work. Had to make do with an evening, under rare crystal clear skies, shooting away with the old DSLR whilst the film camera loitered around back home. Will keep an eye out for online listings of any of the 4 named above lens over the next few weeks.

[Leigh]

I have mostly assumed that lenses that look like new look that way because they are optically poor and do not get used...
That is an absolutely indefensible assumption, presented merely to support your views.

I use my lenses quite regularly, and they're all in excellent condition.

But then I have 15 LF lenses, and I shoot other formats besides LF, so any particular lens may only get used a few times a month.

- Leigh

[Wally]

... Generally you use a standard lensboard with a bag bellows, or a recessed lensboard with a standard bellows.- Leigh

A bag bellows isn't going to make the standards any closer on my Shen Hao or any other camera that uses tapered bellows. I still need a recessed lensboard when I want to use my 75mm lens.

[Leigh]

A bag bellows isn't going to make the standards any closer on my Shen Hao or any other camera that uses tapered bellows.
It can if you have front tilt (backwards). You tilt the front standard back into the bag bellows, then reset the lensboard vertical.

There's not a lot of room for adjustment, depending on the camera, but it may be enough in some circumstances.

The technique is described in the instructions for some cameras.

- Leigh