Arca Swiss M Line Two vs RL3d vs F-Line C w/Micro Orbix

[NoBob]

Without having anywhere to check out these cameras firsthand, I've had to search online for info and reviews, but not sure which would be best for me.

I photograph architecture commercially and want more movement than the 5dMk2 and Canon 24mm shift lens give. I want to be able to combine vertical rise or fall and lateral shift. Something the Canon system doesn't allow you to do.

Prefer the extra shift offered by the RL3d over the RM3d and the ability to use large format film (like to have the option to try it one day).

Would like to start out with medium format film to get used to using view camera movements, and starting off by getting cheaper/older lenses.

I'm guessing the learning curve with the RL3d won't be as steep as the one with the M Line Two and the F-Line C.

Eventually I'd like to upgrade to digital lenses and a digital back.

Any ideas which camera would suit me?

[B.S.Kumar]

If you're just starting out with view cameras, I suggest an inexpensive monorail with bag bellows and a roll film holder. It is important to see if you like the slower pace before committing to a relatively expensive system like the Arca. I use a Toyo 45DX, a Linhof Color and a Sinar P2, and occasionally a Wista 45D with a digital back, roll film and a Betterlight scan back. The Toyo is the best bang for the buck for architecture, with geared shift and rise/fall. It costs so little that you can simply keep it as a backup or for when you want something more rugged.

For information on the Arca, check Darr Almeida's posts here and Chris Barrett's posts on Luminous Landscape.

Kumar

[NoBob]

Thanks Kumar, I like the slower pace, no issue there... Just got my heart set on an Arca.

[Ed Kelsey]

Good write up on the M2 here

http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=800

[jeroldharter]

I have an Arca Swiss F-Line Metric with Orbix which is what you are looking for. That with a bag bellows would be perfect for your application. the M-Line would be overkill. As far as lenses, they would be much cheaper than the camera so just get some modern wide angle focal lengths from the main 4 manufacturers.

However, I agree with B.S. Kumar - for starters, pick up a used Toyo monorail with geared movements plus modern lenses. See if you like it before committing to the Arca. That is what I did. Also, working with wide angle lenses indoors on a view camera is not the most fun. The image is dim and focusing takes some practice. You would probably want the larger aperture wide angles for your work.

[NoBob]

Yeah, saw that, thanks Ed.

[Daniel Stone]

if you're eventually wanting to go the digi-back route, I'd go for a camera that has the finer-geared movements that digital needs. Shooting film(even rollfilm IMO), the "movements" and extreme accuracy that is needed when focusing on the g/g gets to be problematic with digital backs. The focus plane on MF sized chips is so small, it makes film look like childs play :o. However, using a camera such as the M2, Sinar P3, or other view cameras(or tech cameras like the Arca RL3D/RM3d(i)), which ARE designed for digital(or hybrid in the RL3D's case) usage primarily, they're built with less "slack" in the movements, and some more precision in terms of fit and finish. This is purely my opinion, but having assisted people who have used 4x5 and 8x10 Sinar/Horseman, Cambo Legend, etc... for years to photograph architecture, product, anything else they want, now shooting with a MF setup, focusing is all that more critical. Also, b/c you're generally shooting at F/8-11 to get the best "sharpness" out of your $40k piece of kit(digi back alone ;)), you'll probably result to focus-stacking and then merging shots in PS. Its standard practice today, and the results can look tremendous.

However, I know a few people that use their Sinar P2 that they've had since it came out in the 80's, and with some TLC/CLA every few years, they're more than happy with the results it helps bring. A view camera(digitally-designed or film) used in conjunction with a sliding back makes still life(or architecture in C. Barrett's case) very quick. It also makes it so you don't have to resort to removing and re-installing a g/g assembly to take a shot.

This is just my $.02, but from a practicality standpoint, cameras built for digital usage from the get-go CAN make things faster, and more accurate. But everyone's opinions differ, this is just mine made from observations over the past 2 years.

-Dan

[Peter De Smidt]

My experience mirrors Dan's.

[John Schneider]

You might also want to contact Rod, the USA rep and national expert on all things Arca: Rod.Klukas@Arca-Swiss.com

He also posts here occasionally but darned if I can recall his handle.

[evan clarke]

6x9 F metric..The ultimate little roll film camera, The M-line doesn't give you much more than extra weight...Evan Clarke

[Rod Klukas]

The problem here is focusing the short lenses is almost impossible to consistently be sharp.
The detail is so small that it just can't be resolved. The R cameras from Arca can take care of that in a much easier and far more accurate manner.
Using the helical focus and the rise/Fall or Tilt/swing and shift of the RL3d or the Rm3di, one has a far les bulky but far more precise camera. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.

[NoBob]

Thanks all.

Thing is I want to start out with older non-digital lenses and a film back...

What can the F-Line do that the RL3d can't?

Searched around, but can't find any pics of the RL3d in operation. There's a video showing how you can switch backs but it doesn't show any movement positions - http://www.arca-shop.de/ Is there a specs PDF showing how it operates anywhere?

[NoBob]

So if you get for example a Rodenstock 100mm f5.6 Apo Sironar S, you'll need a Focus Mount on an RL3d with digital back but not the F Metric w/Micro Orbix with digital back?

[NoBob]

Okay, did some more searching. Someone over at getdpi posted youtube videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-zTjoLPb1U

http://www.youtube.com/user/hpgp100

Luckily I can speak French...

[jeroldharter]

Thanks all.

Thing is I want to start out with older non-digital lenses and a film back...

What can the F-Line do that the RL3d can't?

Searched around, but can't find any pics of the RL3d in operation. There's a video showing how you can switch backs but it doesn't show any movement positions - http://www.arca-shop.de/ Is there a specs PDF showing how it operates anywhere?

I don't see where the R3 can tilt. That is a very important movement.

[NoBob]

Bascule = tilt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XvhiiZJNEk

[jeroldharter]

Bascule = tilt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XvhiiZJNEk

Pretty slick. Thanks.

[Rod Klukas]

The rl3d does have tilt built in to the body, + or - 5 degrees. It allows the user to have the most precise camera in terms of movement and focus available.
Especially with wide angles, this precision is critical.
There is also a lens board available for the F line cameras which can allow use of the R mounted lenses should you want to have both cameras.

[Clyde Franklin]

If you want to avoid the inconvenience and extra cost of future selling and reinvestment, add are reasonably sure of eventually going MF Digital, an Arca R-series with R mounted lenses will be your most precise and proficient option(with digital back).However, if you presently want to avoid the outlay of a MF Digital back and the R mounting of lenses,the Arca M2 will be your second most precise and portable option. The M2 is also an excellent choice for later digital use. (see Christopher Barrett's blog.)

[NoBob]

Thanks,

Arca-Swiss F-Metric C 6x9 View Camera
±40mm Front/Rear Shifts
40mm Rise f/ Both Standards
(looking for tilt and swing amounts)

Arca Swiss M Line Two
Vertical shift 70 mm
Horizontal shift 70 mm
Swing 30°
Tilt 90°

Do you see a significant difference in range of movements? Maybe you see the figures and think you couldn't do this or that? Something a newbie won't see?

What am I missing here, in this B&H picture of the Arca-Swiss F-Metric C 6x9 View Camera? I don't see 40 mm. I see 30 mm each direction...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/390983-REG/Arca_Swiss_013269_F_Metric_C_6x9_View.html

[Clyde Franklin]

Any difference in the movement specs between the F 6/9 and m2 6/9 will have no bearing upon practical application. The significant point is that the m2 was designed with digital use in mind, and therefore likely to have tighter and more durable specs. This consideration is relevant to 6/9 film use as well.

[NoBob]

Rm3d, not RL3d review:

http://vimeo.com/5304769

[NoBob]

Some info from Robert White

Arca has recently changed their digital adapters, making them slimmer. This has also led to the cameras being supplied with a thinner ground glass back. To keep the system the same they have also made the roll film holder adapter thinner to match. However this has led to a problem. Using the new ground glass back and film holder adapter it is not possible to mount a film back in he portrait format, only landscape. Therefore we must supply your with he original ground glass back and roll film holder adapter. The prices are the same but if you go digital at some point you will not only have to buy a digital adapter plate but also a new ground glass back. if this is not done you will get focus misalignment.