Tiny but precise stick on levels for levelling the standards?

[l2oBiN]

Looking for a tint bubble level or other type of level that I can stick to the horizontal and vertical axis of the standards. Does anyone know where I could get some (preferably an ebay seller)?

[l2oBiN]

perhaps this would be cool as well..anyone selling it on ebay?

http://toolmonger.com/2008/04/14/six-in-one-card-level/

[Drew Wiley]

Don't expect anything like that to be particularly level. First, the surface you mount it
to would have to be perfectly flat and also true relative to your groundglass. You'd
have to precisely bed it in epoxy in such a manner that it remained true when set up.
Tape won't do it. And it would have to be a decent miniature level. I don't know anyone who makes something like this except Starrett or Stabila. Expect to pay 25
to 40 bucks. Not bad, but more money than any cheapo line level or keychain "level"
in acrylic. (Most on-board view camera levels aren't all that level either, if you check
them with a quality standard.)

[Bob Salomon]

Kaiser makes them.

[Lachlan 717]

Try looking up stick-on Bullseye levels.

Or carry a small Torpedo level with your kit.

[Leigh]

McMaster-Carr at www.mcmaster.com has a large selection of small levels in both bulls-eye and tubular styles.

And they list the accuracy of each. They're only $2 to $3 each, so buy several different ones and see which you prefer.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

The longer-larger the level, the more accurate it is. So these little camera levels are only good to with a couple of degrees at best.

You are better off with a good independent level that will fit within the confines of the ground glass and the rim of your lens, the only two planes that really matter.

http://www.starrett.com/download/338_p439_444.pdf

[Lachlan 717]

http://www.starrett.com/download/338_p439_444.pdf

Some really cool stuff here, Frank!

[Leigh]

So these little camera levels are only good to with a couple of degrees at best.
Sorry, Frank. Absolutely untrue.

Some of the little bulls-eye levels are accurate to 0.035"/foot (10 arc minutes).

The little tubular acrylics are accurate to under 1/2 degree for less than $3.

If you want real accuracy you get the Starret 199Z, rated at 0.0005"/foot.
It's the industry standard for precision levels, but it costs $750.00.
I have two of them.

- Leigh

[falth j]

I too, for years have tried to find ways to keep my level and perpendicular but not with much success, :mad: until I was able to incorporate a large lake as a reference level body...

I bought one of those gps satellite survey systems, a precision kinetic satellite surveying system designed and implemented using a Global Positioning System (GPS).

A receiver is interfaced to a real-time kinetic (RTK) base station to achieve high precision centimeter scale positioning capability.

The receiver system is connected to a laptop personal computer where GPS receiver coordinates are captured and stored with the appropriate ExpertGPS software. The GPS data is layered on top of a GIS map with geospatial features.

Everything was working fine until the recent Japanese earthquake which threw the earth position off slightly altering rotational speed, and now I find that the lake has tipped and there is more water bunched up at one end of the lake changing lake levels, and thus affecting the levelness of my camera for which I have an algorithm to counter these recent changes, and once again I’m able to achieve a certain degree of levelness.

When my wife is with me, she generally eyeballs everything, and it works out pretty good, and she gripes that having too much technology isn’t always a good thing… :eek:

[Leigh]

Something to consider...

If there are sharp verticals or horizontals in the subject, use a gridded GG and align same with the subject.

If there are no such lines, nobody will know whether the camera was level or not.

- Leigh

[Henry Ambrose]

Or a plumb line hung over the back of the camera - line it up with the grid on the ground glass.

But Leigh is right about the small levels being plenty accurate enough. Just be sure to get a good one.

[jeroldharter]

This might work for you:

http://cameralevel.com/

http://cameralevel.com/images/hinged-camera-level-up.jpg

http://cameralevel.com/images/standard-level.jpg

[Doremus Scudder]

The real question here is, how accurate do you need a camera level to be?

Even rather accurate levels have to be mounted. If the mounting (glue, double-sided tape, screws, etc.) results in the level not be aligned correctly, then inaccuracy is introduced. Also, most after-market levels need to be attached to a flat surface on the camera, or a hot shoe (which most large-format cameras do not have), relying then on the parallelism and perpendicularity of the mounting surface, i.e., on the quality of the camera manufacturing process. Not only that, film holders don't all seat in exactly the same place, the film has some play inside the holder and is not held exactly perpendicular, etc., etc.

Bottom line, you likely will not get an on-board camera level that is extremely accurate in machinists' terms. However, you will most likely get close enough for camera leveling. Even with architectural photographs, my cheapo level gets me close enough that only tweaks are needed to line up the image with the grid on the ground glass (which I'm now more certain is aligned with the camera and film edges now that I've spent time adjusting its position...).

I use my levels to get the camera close. If there are important verticals and horizontals in the scene, I use the grid on the ground glass to refine (this is the only way to get parallel horizontals anyway and, if things are aligned to the grid, the image on the negative will be square, even if skewed a bit in relation to the film edges due to errors in ground-glass positioning and film and film holder seating). I find that using the grid trumps the on-board level every time. You will likely find that managing a scene with lots of parallel horizontals and verticals is best done with using the grid as well.

To help improve your level's accuracy, you can "calibrate" the level you are mounting to your gridded ground glass . Set up a shot with reliable horizontals and verticals in it (a modern building, etc.), level with as long a spirit level as you can use, then do fine adjustments using the grid to align with; make sure your camera is locked down at zero position, align a vertical in the middle using side-to-side tilt on your tripod head and then use the front-to-back tilt on the tripod head to bring verticals at the edge of the scene parallel. When you're sure the image is well-aligned, test fit your bull's-eye level or the like and see how it reads. Adjust with shims or whatever to make it read true and fasten it down however you like. This will likely be more accurate than any factory built-in level as long as you don't change the position of your ground glass.

I have a bull's-eye level on a Wista DX that I did this with, using thicknesses of double-stick Scotch tape to shim and mount, which is very accurate and has been stuck on the camera for going on 14 years.

Have fun,

Doremus Scudder

[mark anderson]

as a carpenter tha has bought many levels over the years, some well over $100 i can tell ya that it ain't that easy. when buying a level i check all the vials at the store. for horzontal i go to a counter top and set the level down and mark each end with a coin or something. check the bubble, it dose not have to be centered but check where it reads. then i flip the level end for end, it should read the same, many go back to the rack at this point.

to check the vertica go to a vertical post, big steal suport post is best. put the level on it with the botom on the floor and up one edge so you can find the same spot for the second reading. to take the second reading just spin the level 180 deg to put the other side in the same spot. again the reading should be the same.

on most levels with multiple horizontal and vertical vials at least one will be off, i just mark it so it won't be used on the job site.

there have been many times that i have walked out of a store that had 10 levels in stock and i walked out empty handed.

[Bob Salomon]

This is the Kaiser version. It has a self-adhesive base and also has 3 holes in its metal housing for attaching permenantly so it is very easy to shim it for most accurate calibration.

http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_produktanzeige.asp?nr=6386

[John Jarosz]

I just bought two of these. They seem to be OK for my use.

Hotshoe Level (http://tinyurl.com/3ffmo92)

[Drew Wiley]

Typical story, Mark ... but that's the difference between generic stuff nowadays and
hand-tuned made-in-Germany levels, which are almost never off (I should know ... we sell more of them here than anyone else in the country, and I mean, hundreds of them
per month). But I'm one of those guys who keeps on hand Starrett machinists levels in my shop to check other levels, and Starret squares to check other squares. For view camera architectural work I sometimes packed a pendulum-style angle finder, which is more accurate than a little bubble level anyway. But a simple grid on the groundglass is really the ticket for proper alignment. With basic pano work you might be able to get by with something simpler. I started ignoring the levels on my Sinar monorail a long time ago - you can correct them, but why bother.

[ic-racer]

The longer-larger the level, the more accurate it is. So these little camera levels are only good to with a couple of degrees at best.

You are better off with a good independent level that will fit within the confines of the ground glass and the rim of your lens, the only two planes that really matter.

http://www.starrett.com/download/338_p439_444.pdf

None of those look very suitable for making either the lens or groundglass perpendicular to gravity.

You would need an "L" shaped contraption, perfectly 90 degrees, with a bubble level on the top side.

[Drew Wiley]

Ice racer - that little Starrett cross-test level is way too fussy for field work - it's made in such a manner that if you're just a gnat's hair off, the bubble will leave center.
I do use one of these for calibrating mounted copy cameras, which also have an
attached level adjusted accordingly. But too slow and fussy to use for general photog.
Again, a pendulum-style angle finder with a squared base profile is far far quicker to use. Another quick method for indoor architecture at least would be to use a self-leveling lasercrosshair and then match the grid lines on the groundglass to this. Yet once again you need something quality if you expect reasonable accuracy (I use a
PLS2).

[speedfreak]

As a carpenter as well, I use levels to make my living. The guys I works with buy the crap at home depot and get routinely dropped and thrown in the back of the truck at the end of the day. I'll let you guess what their work usually looks like. For me, I realized early on that you get what you pay for with levels and it's not the place to skimp! I have a full set of Stabila levels that live in their case until used and are babied while being worked with. They are top notch levels and I love to work with them.
While out with the camera, I'll use the stabila torpedo level to get me in the ballpark then use the grid lines on the GG to get everything dialed in. There are so many damned levels on my setup: bullseye on tripod, two on tripod head, two on the rear standard of the technikardan and one on the front standard. Trying to get them to all agree is impossible. So... simplicity is your friend. Find a nice level that is accurate and use that in conjunction with the grid on the GG and your money!

[Jean-Louis Llech]

Hi, everybody,
for a large format camera, these bubble levels which can be mounted on hot shoes need a hot shoe ! I know, this is quite stupid to say that. But I don't know which view or field cameras have one.
And on MF cameras with a hot shoe, I wonder if the hot shoe is really right-angled with the film plane. Not sure it is or not. Never checked it.
The Starrett Cross Test Level No. 136 seems interesting, but I don't see how to fix it on the groundglass or the lens plate. Huge (7x7cm) for a Linhof plate.
On a LF camera, the levelling of the tripod is something essential. Second, the levelling of the camera. And I agree with the idea that there is already a useful tool for that : the groundglass.
I use an angle finder protractor, with a large 360° dial, for levelling the tripod and the camera. The one I used was bought by McMaster Carr. When it was recently broken, I use one from Empire Level (Model 36 Protractor). Only $11.09.
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Level-36-Magnetic-Protractor/dp/B00004YYG4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1305276959&sr=8-1
Regards,
Jean-Louis

[Bob Salomon]

Hi, everybody,
for a large format camera, these bubble levels which can be mounted on hot shoes need a hot shoe ! I know, this is quite stupid to say that. But I don't know which view or field cameras have one.
And on MF cameras with a hot shoe, I wonder if the hot shoe is really right-angled with the film plane. Not sure it is or not. Never checked it.
The Starrett Cross Test Level No. 136 seems interesting, but I don't see how to fix it on the groundglass or the lens plate. Huge (7x7cm) for a Linhof plate.
On a LF camera, the levelling of the tripod is something essential. Second, the levelling of the camera. And I agree with the idea that there is already a useful tool for that : the groundglass.
I use an angle finder protractor, with a large 360° dial, for levelling the tripod and the camera. The one I used was bought by McMaster Carr. When it was recently broken, I use one from Empire Level (Model 36 Protractor). Only $11.09.
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Level-36-Magnetic-Protractor/dp/B00004YYG4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1305276959&sr=8-1
Regards,
Jean-Louis

Linhof has an accessory shoe on all of their current cameras. All older Technika cameras and most of their Kardan cameras. Wista has one on their metal technical cameras.
In addition, Kaiser makes add on accessory shoes (view cameras do not have a "hot" shoe. That is a term from 35mm cameras that is being used in place of accessory shoe. A hot shoe has a flash contact in it. An accessory shoe does not. Kaiser also makes add-on hot shoes but the synch cord on these is not long enough to use them on a view camera unless one also buys a longer Kaiser synch cord.

[Jean-Louis Llech]

Yes, Bob, you are right, as usual. I apologise myself for this stupid mistake.
But, my real mistake is that I always have the finder residently set on it.
That's why I did not finally consider it like a "hot shoe", and I never used it for setting a bubble level.
I aged (very badly, IMO)