Change scanner glass Epson V750 to anti newton

[jsch]

Hi,

I plan to change the scanner glass in my Epson V750 to an anti newton glass, because I use it only to scan 8x10 inch film. I found the attached drawing. I guess no. 109 is the scanner glass, does anyone know the exact measurements and the thickness of this glass? Thank you.

Best,
Johannes

[Walter Calahan]

Sounds like a good idea.

I simply flip my 8x10 emulsion up, and place an anti-newton ring glass on top. 99% I get no newton rings.

[jsch]

Sounds like a good idea.

I simply flip my 8x10 emulsion up, and place an anti-newton ring glass on top. 99% I get no newton rings.

Which side of the neg do you put on the scanner glass? In my experience the emulsion side gives less trouble with newton rings. To keep the film flat I put a second anti newton glass on top of the film.

Best,
Johannes

[Leigh]

Anti-newton glass should be used in contact with the smooth (non-emulsion) side of the negative. That's where the Newton rings appear.

But the glass in the V750 lid doesn't touch the negative in the first place, so there should never be any Newton rings in the scan.

An anti-NR glass on top of the negative to keep it flat would be in addition to the glass installed in the lid, and would not interfere with it.

- Leigh

[Gem Singer]

The Epson V750 scanner is designed with the sensor in the bottom section and the light in the top section.

Replacing the clear scanner glass with anti-Newton glass will result in sensor needing to read through the textured (lightly frosted) anti-Newton glass before it reads the negative.

Your scans will not be sharp.

It's the wrong thing to do.

[Peter De Smidt]

A Screen Cezanne scans through an anti-Newton textured bed. According the Seybold Report, the Cezanne is capable of capturing about 6000 spi. It's not intuitive, and so I tested it by replacing the textured bed with optical glass. When I wet-mounted film to the clear glass using Kami, there was no increase in scan quality over using the textured scanning bed.

[Gem Singer]

Peter,

Bob McCarthy's Screen Cezanne has a fixed sensor above, with the light coming up from the bottom. The opposite configuration of the Epson V750.

During scanning, the bottom section with the light moves while the sensor in the top section remains stationary. The Screen Cezanne's sensor reads the negative first, then passes through the textured anti-Newton glass.

The AN glass does not come between the sensor and the negative.

Un-like the SC, both the light and the sensor move during scanning with the V750.

[Leigh]

I guess my previous post wasn't clear, so let me try again...

The light is in the lid. It passes through the negative, emulsion down, then into the lower housing where the optics and sensor are located.

It would only make sense to put an anti-NR glass above the negative. If you put it below, the texture of the glass would degrade the image.

- Leigh

[Peter De Smidt]

Hi Gem,

Well, I have a Cezanne, and I guarantee you that the lens and sensor are in the bottom (below the bed.) I know that because that's what it says in the manual, and because I've opened up the scanner. The lights sources do not move. The whole bed with the negative moves, which is the reason for the huge wing to the scanner's left. With a transparency, the upper bulbs are used. They shine down through an anti-newton cover plate, the negative, the anti-newton bed, and bounce off of a mirror into the lens, which focuses the light on the sensor. I've removed my bottom bulbs since I only scan negatives and not reflective media.

In any case, a Screen clam-shell holder is textured on both interior surface, the one below and above the negative. I'm looking at one right now.

Also note that some excellent traditional printers, such as Howard Bond, use AN glass both above and below the negatives in their enlargers, since some contemporary films have very shiny emulsion sides, as well as shiny base sides.

[Bob McCarthy]

Eugene, the lamps are above and the sensor is beneath the moving table. Maybe you were thinking reflective scanning where the lower lamps are lit.

The sensor reads through the sandwich = anti newton acrylic below - film - hold down clamp acrylic above

Bob


Peter,

Bob McCarthy's Screen Cezanne has a fixed sensor above, with the light coming up from the bottom. The opposite configuration of the Epson V750.

During scanning, the bottom section with the light moves while the sensor in the top section remains stationary. The Screen Cezanne's sensor reads the negative first, then passes through the textured anti-Newton glass.

The AN glass does not come between the sensor and the negative.

Un-like the SC, both the light and the sensor move during scanning with the V750.

[Gem Singer]

I was mistaken about the position of the sensor in the Screen Cezanne. Sorry about that.

For my own satisfaction, I just performed a scan with my Epson V750 where I placed a 5x7 negative so that the scanners' sensor would need to pass through a piece of anti-Newton glass before reading the film.

Scanned it as 16 bit grayscale at 2400 dpi. Sent it to Photoshop and blew it up to 100%. At that magnification, I was just barely able to detect the texture of the anti-newton glass. At 200%, it was easily seen.

Perhaps the higher quality of the lens and focusing mechanism of the Screen Cezanne, as well as it's finer textured anti-Newton glass, accounts for the difference.

I still feel that it's not a good idea to allow the sensor of the Epson V750 to pass through anti-Newton glass before reading a negative or transparency.

[Peter De Smidt]

Perhaps the higher quality of the lens and focusing mechanism of the Screen Cezanne, as well as it's finer textured anti-Newton glass, accounts for the difference.


I think you're right. I was very surprised by the results of my tests. It's very counter-intuitive.

[Leigh]

Scanned it as 16 bit grayscale at 2400 dpi.
Why would anybody buy a scanner that's rated 6400 dpi and use it at 2400?

If you want to evaluate degradation, scan the same film at 6400 with and without the ANR glass below it.

Then you'll get some meaningful results.

- Leigh

[Gem Singer]

Leigh,

Scanning a 5x7 B&W negative at 6400dpi seems to take forever. It was much faster to do it at 2400dpi.

I wasn't attempting to evaluate degradation. only curious to find out if the texture of the AN glass would be visible at my usual scanning settings.

I usually scan everything on my Epson V750 at 2400dpi. Seems to be the sweet spot for my scanner. The largest prints I make are 16"x20".

Also, I only wanted to use enough dpi's to find out if the anti-Newton glass would have an effect on my scanners' sensor. Which it did.

[Peter De Smidt]

Many people on the forum with V750s and V700s scan at around 2400 spi. The reason is many have found that scanning at higher sampling rate with those scanners doesn't yield much, if any, real improvement. What matters is optical resolution and not interpolated resolution.

[Jim Cole]

Ok guys. Some of you have hijacked the OPs thread about the V750 with talk about the Cezanne. I'm sure he apreciates the off topic posts.

[Peter De Smidt]

The original post was about using anti-newton glass in a V750. The Cezanne uses anti-newton glass (well, plastics really), and I brought it up in an attempt to help the original poster. That's hijacking a thread?

[Gerry Meekins]

No matter which side of the emulsion that I place face up I still get rings. I have an Epson V750 and I am trying to scan TMax and with a sheet of anti newton ring glass on top of the negative. I am new to scanning so it may just be my work flow.
I read somewhere years ago that this would also occur when enlarging TMax with the LPL anti newton ring glass negative carrier due to only one surface being anr glass. I never owned a glass 4 X 5 carrier so I never experienced the problem.
Anyone else have this problem with TMax?

-Gerry

[Gem Singer]

Jim,

This thread was not hijacked.

The original poster was inquiring about replacing the clear glass platten on his Epson V750 with anti-newton glass.

My contention is, although works with the high-end Screen Cezanne scanner, it is not a good idea on the Epson V750.

See the discussion about Newton Rings and the history of solving the problem, on the Focal Point website: www.fpointinc.com

[Gem Singer]

Gerry,

Both the emulsion side and the base side of T-Max film is smooth. Placing either side against smooth glass will cause Newton Rings.

You need to use AN glass above and below the film.

On the other hand, the base side of HP-5+ is dull (slightly textured). It can be placed against smooth glass without causing Newton Rings.

[sanking]

The original poster was inquiring about replacing the clear glass platten on his Epson V750 with anti-newton glass.

My contention is, although works with the high-end Screen Cezanne scanner, it is not a good idea on the Epson V750.

See the discussion of Anti-Newton Rings, the history of solving the problem, on the Focal Point website: www.fpointinc.com

Regardless of whether the anti-newton glass works with the Cezanne I agree with Gem that it is *probably* not a good idea for the Epson V750 because the results are likely highly dependent on the exact nature of the anti-newton glass that would be used to replace the original glass. Also, scanning directly on the glass does not place the film at the plane of optimum focus, as it varies from about 0.5mm to as much as 3.0mm above the glass. I think you could get just as good, or better, results with a lot less trouble merely by floating (with shims) a piece of thin anti-newton glass about 0.5mm above the surface of the scanner glass (AN glass up) and placing the film directly on this surface.

Sandy King

[Gerry Meekins]

Gem,

I read some your earlier post on scanning on the glass and thought that
your use of HP-5 was a clue to the great results you are getting. I may have
to pull out the old 5X7 and try some HP5 now!

Thanks,
-Gerry


Gerry,

Both the emulsion side and the base side of T-Max film is smooth. Placing either side against smooth glass will cause Newton Rings.

You need to use AN glass above and below the film.

On the other hand, the base side of HP-5+ is dull (slightly textured). It can be placed against smooth glass without causing Newton Rings.

[jsch]

Hi everyone,

I'm the OP. I only work with 8x10 film. Let me share/repeat some experiences/findings/intentions:

Plane of focus: This is a problem with the V750. I got my first one replaced by Epson because they could not repair the following problem: The plane of focus was always 3 mm above the scanner glass. But for 8x10 film and reflective media it should be on the scanner glass. Only for smaller film a different optical system should work with a plane of focus 3 mm above the scanner glass.

I have tested different V 750 scanners (4) with the same negative and also compared with the Creo Eversmart II (2540 dpi optical resolution). The result: The Creo has a small resolution advantage and no newton ring problems. But a big workflow disadvantage.

Disadvantages of Creo: scan duration, max. file size 1GB, you can't stitch because two scans with identical settings are always slightly different.

Resolution: My "feeling" is that the V750 true resolution is around 1900-2100 dpi (for 8x10 scans, smaller formats can make use of the other/better optical system in the scanner). The Creo might have real 2540 dpi but if you scan twice the scans are not identical - but all are better than V750.

Newton rings: The Epson shows them very much if the negative is thin. The Creo virtually shows no newton rings and uses anti newton glass above and below the negative. The top glass is hold by springs. If you close the scanner the top glass pushes the negative softly to the bottom glass. In addition the bottom glass feels always warm so it evaporates moisture in the negative. That reduces also the possibility of newton rings. You just wait a few seconds before you close the scanner so that the moisture can escape from under the negative.

With these experiences I want to pimp the V750:
1. Step: I "warm up" the negative outside the scanner because I don't know how the Epson would react if I heat up its interiors.
2. Step: I use mainly HP5Plus and put the emulsion side on the scanner glass. Then I put an anti newton glass on top of the negative. To limit the pressure I use "spacers" outside of the negative (cut from film that is slightly thicker than HP5Plus). The glass lies more on the spacers than on the negative but prevents the negative from curling.
3. Step: Replace the bottom scanner glass with an anti newton glass.
4. Step: Built in a possibility to micro adjust the bottom scanner glass for optimal focus.

Any help and thoughts are appreciated.

Best,
Johannes

[sanking]

File size with the Eversmart is issue of OS 9 operating system. It can be increased, Apple has a patch for this. However, I too have a problem in making two scans with identical setting using the Eversmart scanning application that are exactly alike in terms of density. But the scans merge fine with Photoshop, even though it may be necessary to do a bit of work to even the density before you flatten the file.

I have an Epson V700 and an Eversmart Pro, but should be no difference in resolution to the scanners you tested. I tested both with a high resolution chrome on glasss target (225 lp/mm). Most I could get with the V700, when using the film area guide which one would use for 8X10, was less than 1800 dpi. With the Eversmart Pro I get more than 3000 dpi. Quite a huge difference in my testing. BTW, the Creo Eversmart Pro and Pro II has real resolution of 3175 dpi, not 2540 dpi. If you did not see any difference in your testing it may be because the 8X10 negatives used in the testing did not carry any more than the equivalent of about 1800 dpi. This is very likely in my experience with 8X10 and larger negatives.

The Eversmart Pro/Pro 11 was not originally fitted with AN glass on top of the scanner bed, though it does have AN on the glass above the bed (over the negative). The original glass on the scanner bed has a coating similar to the coating on lenses, to reduce flare.

As I opined earlier in the thred, I believe there is a simpler and better solution for you than replacing the original glass of the Epson V700/V750 with AN glass. Just float a piece of glass above the bed, using shims to determine best focus, and fluid mount the negative to the botton of the glass. Or, if you do not want to fluid mount, use a piece of glass above the bed with an AN layer on top, and just place the negative on this surface. Both methods replicate the system of the BetterScanning holders, which gives optimum results in my experience with the Epson V700/V750 scanners.

Sandy King

[Jeremy Moore]

As I opined earlier in the thred, I believe there is a simpler and better solution for you than replacing the original glass of the Epson V700/V750 with AN glass. Just float a piece of glass above the bed, using shims to determine best focus, and fluid mount the negative to the botton of the glass. Or, if you do not want to fluid mount, use a piece of glass above the bed with an AN layer on top, and just place the negative on this surface. Both methods replicate the system of the BetterScanning holders, which gives optimum results in my experience with the Epson V700/V750 scanners.

Sandy King

Sandy, one issue with doing it this way (and I'm of course talking from memory as I haven't scanned on a V700/V750 in a while :rolleyes: ) is you will not be able to scan the entire 8x10 negative. If you use the "film holder" setting you are limited as to the width of your scan and it's under 8"

I found I couldn't get above ~1650 ppi actual resolution with the "film area guide" setting compared to ~2350 ppi with the "film holder" setting on my best V700 (I have access to a large number of them in my lab). 1650 ppi with 8x10 is still A LOT of image.

I'm scanning my 8x10's now with an Epson 10,000XL as it has manual focus settings. I sandwich the negative between 2 sheets of anti-newton glass and scan at an actual 2400ppi. Makes for huge files.

Edit: Here we go...
http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/mstation.html

The useable scanning area targets the more narrow field of view for the Epson® V Series' second "high resolution" scanning lens.
Thus the scanning area is approximately 225 mm x 145 mm (8.85" x 5.71") for fluid mounting and slightly less at 215 mm x 145 mm (8.46" x 5.71") for dry mounting.

[sanking]

Sandy, one issue with doing it this way (and I'm of course talking from memory as I haven't scanned on a V700/V750 in a while :rolleyes: ) is you will not be able to scan the entire 8x10 negative. If you use the "film holder" setting you are limited as to the width of your scan and it's under 8"


Jeremy,

This is true. In order to scan a full 8X10 are you must choose film area guide, not film holder, and that decision automatically selects the lower resolution lens.

But that is true regardless of how you scan 8X10 film, whether directly on the scanner bed glass, or on a piece of glass floating over the scanner bed glass. So far as I know there is no way to scan a full 8X10 sheet with the higher resolution lens. Perhaps there is, but I don't know how.

Sandy

[Jeremy Moore]

Jeremy,

This is true. In order to scan a full 8X10 are you must choose film area guide, not film holder, and that decision automatically selects the lower resolution lens.

But that is true regardless of how you scan 8X10 film, whether directly on the scanner bed glass, or on a piece of glass floating over the scanner bed glass. So far as I know there is no way to scan a full 8X10 sheet with the higher resolution lens. Perhaps there is, but I don't know how.

Sandy

There isn't, that's my point: I don't see any reason to shoot/scan 8x10 on the v700/v750 using the high res lens if the largest I can scan is barely over 5"x7" (why not just shoot a 5x7 then). This is one of the reasons (among others) I have switched over to scanning my 8x10s on the 10,000XL.

[Asher Kelman]

There isn't, that's my point: I don't see any reason to shoot/scan 8x10 on the v700/v750 using the high res lens if the largest I can scan is barely over 5"x7" (why not just shoot a 5x7 then). This is one of the reasons (among others) I have switched over to scanning my 8x10s on the 10,000XL.

Jeremy,

Thanks for your insights on the v700 series and the limit of 5x7 for max resolution.

So with the Epson 10,000 XL, have you determined the max O.D. range? Can one scan for darks, mid-tones and then highlights and combine to expand the dynamic range or one does not have that control? Also do you find advantage to using wet-mounting with this scanner.

Lastly, given the $2400 cost, why didn't you go for a used high end scanner, say from Genesis?

Thanks,

Asher

[Greg Bartley]

Hi,

I plan to change the scanner glass in my Epson V750 to an anti newton glass, because I use it only to scan 8x10 inch film. I found the attached drawing. I guess no. 109 is the scanner glass, does anyone know the exact measurements and the thickness of this glass? Thank you.

Best,
Johannes

So Johannes, how did you go with updating your scanner with anti newton glass........did it work ?

all the best

Greg

[jsch]

Hi Greg,

I had a talk with the company where I bought the anti Newton glass. In the end I trusted their advice (http://www.kienzle-phototechnik.de/home_english/home_english.html). I left the glass in the scanner alone and put the film with the emulsion side on the scanner. Then I put an anti Newton glass on top of the film to hold it down. Now I get only Newton rings with thin negatives (HP5+). So far I can live with it. I only scan 8x10 inch HP5+ negatives.

Best,
Johannes