Mysterious 8x10 WA, any clue?

[cyberjunkie]

I found the lens in picture.
The owner reported that the lens covers 8x10", and possibly 24x30cm.
There are no make/model inscriptions on the barrel. The only infos i got are that the rotary diaphragm has the following stops: 18, 22, 32 45 and 64.
On the other side of the barrel there is the inscription "F.27", probably the FL in centimeters.
It's a french sale, and the text of the auction is - guess what - in french :)
When i saw the picture i immediately realized that i've seen the same lens somewhere, probably on the Web.
The barrel looks to be nickel or chrome plated. I don't think it's aluminium with a transparent varnish, because it's looking too nice. Old aluminium barrels get a lot of oxide, with time.
I looked for Darlot wide angles at first, then for Dallmeyers, but i didn't find a matching picture.
So i am turning to the experts out there for help.
Any clue?

Thanks in advance


have fun

CJ

[Steven Tribe]

WA Rapid Rectilinear (Hemi-spherical?)?

[cyberjunkie]

WA Rapid Rectilinear (Hemi-spherical?)?

That's exactly what i guessed.
I placed my bid (without thinking that i would win the item), because i felt that i had seen somewhere a Darlot Hemispheric WA with a very similar shape and finish.
I made a short research, found nothing, and then i did not care anymore, because i thought that my bid was too low to win. Things turned up otherwise.
I did some more searching today, but to no avail.
I couldn't find a vintage WA with the same shape/finish, and the listing of the most common vintage wide angles does not show any lens with 27cm EF and f/10 max aperture.
The owner has very few infos: the lens is unmarked, the rotating stop has a max aperture of f/10, and on the opposite side of the barrel there is a mark that reads "F.27". Of course there is a chance that the seller didn't read it correctly, or maybe it's just not the focal length.
From the picture, the front lens looks quite big for an f/10 lens with 8x10" coverage.
Maybe the seller is right when he says that the lens will probably cover 30x40cm: if it's true, it could well be a 27cm focal, with at least 100 degrees coverage.
As soon as i get the lens , i'll look for more clues (hand made inscriptions, writings on the side of the glasses, etc.).
As far as the optical plan is concerned, i think you're right, Steven!
Its' not a double gauss because the lens shows some balsam problem. So probably it's a WAR with very curved elements (hemispherical).

It's strange that the more experienced users didn't see something familiar in this lens.
I'm quite sure that i saw it in picture somewhere on the Web, or maybe i just saw something very similar with the same kind of finish. Who knows... :)

have fun

CJ

[Ole Tjugen]

It doesn't look like a WA Rectilinear to me.

But it DOES look like a Weitwinkel-Aplanat, in fact it looks very similar to my Busch Ser.C WW-Aplanat! But - I don't think it's a Busch, since he tended to engrave the barrels very very clearly, and besides the longest Ser.C was a 240mm.

It might be a Steinheil - Steinheil is (in-)famous for putting most of the information on the flange. Steinheil also made WWA's up to 405mm, and WW-ReproAplanats to 1423mm!

Remember that there is a very clear difference between WAR and WWA in the thickness and curvature of the glasses. The weight alone sshould tell you which it is, the fact that there is a wheel stop also indicates WWA to me: The cell spacing was too tight for the contemporary iris mechanisms, so WWA's tend to come with wheel stops.

To me the barrel looks like brass. I think the light colour is only a result of the seller using auto-white balance on the digitoy...

[goamules]

...It's strange that the more experienced users didn't see something familiar in this lens. I'm quite sure that i saw it in picture somewhere on the Web, or maybe i just saw something very similar with the same kind of finish. Who knows... :)


The only thing to see is it's a wide angle landscape of some sort. Even with the strongly curved glass and possible nickle finish, it could be any number of things and makers. One picture is not enough to identify.

If it has a smaller rear glass than the front, for example, it is a Dallmeyer Wide Angle Rectilinear clone made by someone. Without engraving, it could be made by anyone.

[Fotoguy20d]

It reminds me a bit of lens I posted about on APUG (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum44/79420-looking-info-brass-lens.html) (not sure why not here too). I never got any more info on mine.

Dan

[Ole Tjugen]

Dan, that drilled notch code is very characteristic of - someone. Can't remember who. But I'll look it up, I have one very much like it, but I think that's a casket set. I must not have seen your question of APUG!

[Ole Tjugen]

I found it - Dan's, at least. See APUG. :)

[cyberjunkie]

It might be a Steinheil - Steinheil is (in-)famous for putting most of the information on the flange. Steinheil also made WWA's up to 405mm, and WW-ReproAplanats to 1423mm!


Thanks for your suggestion, Ole!

I checked the .pdf of a 1892 Scovill catalog.
The WA (Weitwinkel) Aplanat for Copywork have longer focal lengths.
Then there is the Extreme Wide Angle version, with different barrel shape and small, thin and not-so-convex glasses.
The most likely candidate is the Rapid WA Aplanat ,that is very similar to my lens, indeed.
The barrel shape is very close, the max aperture is around f/10, and the glass curvature looks very similar as well. As you wrote, the two groups are very thick, so the lens should be somewhat heavier than a WAR Hemispherical.
Unfortunately the focal is not present, there is a gap between the 9 1/2" and the 15 3/8". The former covers full plate at max aperture, while the latter covers 10x12. The coverage is expanded by a great margin if the lenses are stopped down.
There is a chance that another FL was added later on, for 8x10 coverage (10 1/2" or 10 3/4" = about 27cm).
The invaluable resources on Cameraeccentric are of no help this time, the three pdf's range from 1921 to 1929. Too late, just Cassars, Unofocals and Orthostigmats.
Anybody out there owning an early '900 catalog?

have fun

CJ

[Ole Tjugen]

I have looked in all my books, but unfortunately they also tend to be either 1920's, or just listing the range of focal lengths.

Looking back to your original post you said the rotary stops went 18, 22, 32, 45, 64 - so why are you now looking for an f/10 lens? In the original documentation that was Steinheil's "Landschaftsaplanat", the Weitwinkelaplanat is the f/18 one. With the focal length stated in cm and not inches it's not likely to be a Scovill import but an "original German" lens.

However, as I have discovered there were lots and lots of lens makers in Germany at the time, and even more lens distributors. Even Hartmut Thiele's "Deutsche Photooptik von A-Z" is far from complete, I have several lenses in my collection which are either not listed or which differ significantly from what is described there.

Whatever it is and whoever made it, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by its performance.

[cyberjunkie]

If it has a smaller rear glass than the front, for example, it is a Dallmeyer Wide Angle Rectilinear clone made by someone. Without engraving, it could be made by anyone.

I have seen the lens you are selling (Balbreck Aine Wide Angle No.2).
My lens looks to be very similar. The glasses and the upper part of the barrel are an exact replica, from what i can see. The finish is nickel-plated instead of laquered brass, and the base of the lens is a little larger and smooth, instead of the knurled finish of the Balbreck lens.
I will take your advice and see how it performs wide open. The stop wheel is held in place by a non-original screw (unblackened!), and probably there is a missing shim/s, as it fits very loosely. As i already have to try to fix this problem, i will take the chance to shoot the lens w/o wheel.
If i like the result, what you'd do in my place: resize the smallest stop to full-open size, or leave the lens as is?

BTW, what's the max aperture of the Dallmeyer and Balbreck lenses (with wheel on)?
In my lens, the largest stop is f/18, and there is an "F 27" engraving: it should be the E.F. but i didn't check it in a proper way.

have fun

CJ