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Professional
29-Apr-2011, 18:11
Hi,

I would like to ask a short question in a long detailed explanation so you can answer me better way.

I started to shoot LF last year, but i was worry how to develop the sheets, i used the lab to develop my first 4 sheets and i did it myself at home for the fifth one, the lab is a bit pricey for B&W [color is just fine], and i developed at home by trays, this method was painful and i hated, and i ended up with a neg having scratches [not sure from the developing or from something else].

I bought BTZS tubes, and i bought HP Combi-Plan, i didn't use both yet as i need many things to know before i do, but i really don't know how and where i can find the answer i need to start, so that i will ask the question.

I read a lot that Jobo system is nice and recommended for processing film for Lf or even MF, but people just answer me thinking i live in USA or Europe and can afford Jobo somewhere, i live in UAE and even if i use websites i can't find JOBO and i don't think the shipping option helping me at all to order one anywhere in the world, so i make this JOBO option out, wish this JOBO is still in production so i can buy it from some websites such as Freestyle or B&H or Amazon and so.

Now the question is, what is the best method for processing LF for me in my situation? BTZS video links is not helpful enough, the talking instructor is a bit not so clear for me, i may need another one with more detailed one and slower more clear speaking so i can understand all the steps one by one, also the last question is, what is the dilution amounts for the dev/stop bath, and fixer for BTZS and Combi-Plan if i use any? i want to know the amount accurate or math way rather than some saying you can use drops or use 1/4 for dev and so, i prefer to tell me use 74.59372ml than just saying use little amount to the water, little amounts or drops i may not do it properly and i am not sure if it will work really, i was not sure at all when i mixed for trays, it worked but i can't remember now what i did if i used drops or certain amount, is there anywhere telling me how much dilution i need to mix chemicals in LF processing methods? HP Combi-Plan i was not sure if i want to use it because i heard many say they have leaking and the amount of 1L is too much, but i found that i can develop 6 sheets at once in 1L, so this may be a good option than just develop 1-2 in 1L, also i don't know about the washing method for all those methods above, can you answer me in more details step by step please? My English level is not that great to understand 1-2 lines only or short sentences of answers.

Pawlowski6132
29-Apr-2011, 18:23
Would you consider revisiting tray development? Figure out why you got scratches.

tgtaylor
29-Apr-2011, 18:34
Try dip-n-dunk using Kodak hard rubber tanks.

marcant21
29-Apr-2011, 18:51
I develop my 8x10 in tubes (like the one you have) and my results have been very good. I do the developing, stop bath and fixingin the tubes and the final washing in a tray. If I'm doing 1-2 sheets, then I even wash in the tube using the ilford method.

I have a combi-plan tank for my 4x5, but it requires almost 55 ounces of chemicals so I only use it when I have 6-8 sheets. Otherwise, I use my 4x5 tubes.

Practice a bit and you'll be ok.

good luck. If you have more questions, ask away!

jnanian
29-Apr-2011, 19:41
deep tanks is a no brainer,
easy and works every time
the only down side is learning how
to do it, and standing in the dark for 10 mis

Jay DeFehr
29-Apr-2011, 20:37
Hello Professional,

An easy way to develop one 4x5 sheet at a time in a small volume of solution is to use one of these:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/5041-Arista-Premium-Double-Reel-Developing-Tank-with-two-reels?cat_id=1603

Use the tank and center core without the reels.

Put one sheet of film in the tank, emulsion side towards the center of the tank, with the core in place, and then put the funnel light trap on. When you pour the solution in the top, it escapes at the bottom of the center core, and fills the tank from the bottom up. This helps to prevent solution from splashing the film as the tank fills, but I recommend a plain water pre-wash to wet the film evenly before the developer is added.

Use a full tank of water for the pre-wash, and agitate vigorously for about two minutes.

Pour out the water, and then pour in the developer solution. If you agitate the tank continuously, by gently inverting the tank, you need only a small volume of developer solution; 200ml should be adequate. If you intend to use intermittent agitation, the tank must be filled with developer solution so that the film is completely covered during the rest periods.

When development is complete, pour out the developer, and rinse with plain water. Fill the tank, invert 5 times, dump, re-fill with plain water, invert 10 times, dump.

Pour fixer in the tank, and agitate gently and continuously for the recommended time.

Pour the fixer back into its container.

Wash using the Ilford rapid wash sequence. Fill with plain water, invert 5 times, dump. Fill with fresh water, invert ten times, dump. Fill with fresh water, invert twenty times, dump. Your film is now washed.

Fill with distilled water and add a few drops of Photo Flo.

Soak for 30 seconds to a minute, or so.

Hang to dry in a dust-free place.

The above method is safe, reliable, and inexpensive, but slow. Processing multiple sheets together requires a more complicated system.

For best results, keep all solutions at the same temperature

Good luck!

Professional
29-Apr-2011, 20:39
Would you consider revisiting tray development? Figure out why you got scratches.

the another issue for ignoring tray is that i don't have a darkroom, and in the darkness i have to sit to the side to do tray processing, was pain in.... and i really don't know why i've got scratches.

Professional
29-Apr-2011, 20:40
Try dip-n-dunk using Kodak hard rubber tanks.

Where i can find that?

Professional
29-Apr-2011, 20:46
I develop my 8x10 in tubes (like the one you have) and my results have been very good. I do the developing, stop bath and fixingin the tubes and the final washing in a tray. If I'm doing 1-2 sheets, then I even wash in the tube using the ilford method.

I have a combi-plan tank for my 4x5, but it requires almost 55 ounces of chemicals so I only use it when I have 6-8 sheets. Otherwise, I use my 4x5 tubes.

Practice a bit and you'll be ok.

good luck. If you have more questions, ask away!

That is why i bought the BTZS tubes [i can get for 8x10, but i don't have 8xx10] and HP Combi Plan, so if i dev 1-2 i will use the tubes if i know how to use, if i will dev more than 4 [6-8] then the combo tank could be a solution, but the leakage is an issue i don't want to face if it may cause a problem to my film dev.

Thanks

Professional
29-Apr-2011, 20:47
deep tanks is a no brainer,
easy and works every time
the only down side is learning how
to do it, and standing in the dark for 10 mis

In fact i feel i want to go this path as i dev my MF with one of those tanks, so i feel more comfortable if i know how to use it over the tray or the tubes, but what do you mean by standing in the dark? Is it required for deep tank?

Professional
29-Apr-2011, 21:17
Hello Professional,

An easy way to develop one 4x5 sheet at a time in a small volume of solution is to use one of these:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/5041-Arista-Premium-Double-Reel-Developing-Tank-with-two-reels?cat_id=1603

Use the tank and center core without the reels.

Put one sheet of film in the tank, emulsion side towards the center of the tank, with the core in place, and then put the funnel light trap on. When you pour the solution in the top, it escapes at the bottom of the center core, and fills the tank from the bottom up. This helps to prevent solution from splashing the film as the tank fills, but I recommend a plain water pre-wash to wet the film evenly before the developer is added.

Use a full tank of water for the pre-wash, and agitate vigorously for about two minutes.

Pour out the water, and then pour in the developer solution. If you agitate the tank continuously, by gently inverting the tank, you need only a small volume of developer solution; 200ml should be adequate. If you intend to use intermittent agitation, the tank must be filled with developer solution so that the film is completely covered during the rest periods.

When development is complete, pour out the developer, and rinse with plain water. Fill the tank, invert 5 times, dump, re-fill with plain water, invert 10 times, dump.

Pour fixer in the tank, and agitate gently and continuously for the recommended time.

Pour the fixer back into its container.

Wash using the Ilford rapid wash sequence. Fill with plain water, invert 5 times, dump. Fill with fresh water, invert ten times, dump. Fill with fresh water, invert twenty times, dump. Your film is now washed.

Fill with distilled water and add a few drops of Photo Flo.

Soak for 30 seconds to a minute, or so.

Hang to dry in a dust-free place.

The above method is safe, reliable, and inexpensive, but slow. Processing multiple sheets together requires a more complicated system.

For best results, keep all solutions at the same temperature

Good luck!

Thank you very much!

I forgot to mention that i have Paterson 3 Reel Tank, so i think i will give that a try as i prefer this method much more, i develop all my MF this way, but i wasn't sure how to place the 4x5 sheets inside and what amount of dev and liquids i need.

Thanks for your steps answers.

gerald.d
29-Apr-2011, 23:38
Hi Professional -

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread.

As you know, I'm in the UAE too (Dubai). Can I ask which lab you used?

I just shot my first 12 sheets of 5x7 Ilford FP4+ yesterday, and now I discover from UCF that they cannot develop this (I had been previously told that they could).

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 00:46
Hi Professional -

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread.

As you know, I'm in the UAE too (Dubai). Can I ask which lab you used?

I just shot my first 12 sheets of 5x7 Ilford FP4+ yesterday, and now I discover from UCF that they cannot develop this (I had been previously told that they could).

Hi again,

I am really surprised about that UCF told you they can't do it for you, in fact they processed my first 4 sheets 4x5 [2 B&W and 2 color slides], and they process all of my color films, i just develop my MF B&W at home, and i am trying to process LF at home as they are pricey for LF B&W processing.
I really don't know why they can't process, as they told me they can process film up to 8x10, but yes, i remember them told me that for C41 they can't process sheets until i have a big quantity like 15 minimum, thank God i didn't shoot with C41 yet as i am not like you to shoot more than 10 sheets in less than 1 month, i stopped after my fifth sheet, but i will start to process B&W sheets at home as soon i know the best way to do it rather than tray that i don't like, i have tubes which can process film up to 8x10 [but i need to buy 8x10 tube], so i think i can do up to 4x5 or maybe 5x7 not sure, but i think the Paterson Reel 3 tank can handle 4x5 and 5x7.

gerald.d
30-Apr-2011, 07:32
Hiya -

I called them up again to get clarification.

They can do E6 film up to 10x8 (including 5x7), but the machines they use for B&W can only handle up to 4x5 size.

Regards,

Gerald.

Bill Burk
30-Apr-2011, 09:38
Hi Professional,

A deep tank is operated in the dark.

I considered BTZS tubes and understand they provide even agitation by bobbing randomly as you process. They should be good for avoiding scratches.

Some people say you can open them in regular light after developing because, logically, you are about to pour in stop bath and fixer so the exposure at that moment will not get developed.

I develop 4x5 B&W by tray. When I started, I got scratches. With practice I got fewer scratches.

I recently started using an infra-red viewer which might have reduced scratches by reducing fumbling.

I also supervise washing, because I think many of my original scratches came from washing in a tray with turbulent water.

kev curry
30-Apr-2011, 11:33
BTZS tubes come with instructions. They are very easy to use.

I can only tell you how I use them to develop 5x4.

You need your BTZS Tubes and their tray plus another two additional trays. One for stop bath and one for fixer and a large jug for dumping used developer.

I. Load your film into the tubes emulsion side out and attach the (empty) caps.

2. Mix up your chemicals to the correct temperature.

3. Fill up the BTZS tray with water at the right temperature e.g 20'c.

4. Fill the empty BTZS caps required with 60ml of you chosen developer.

5. Turn out the lights and carefully switch caps. Your tubes must remain upright at all times while switching the empty caps for the caps filled with developer.
You must not allow developer to make contact with the film at this point. Work on a level surface and leave the tubes standing.

Heres what I do. Remove the empty cap/s from the tube/s. Hold the cap filled with developer in my left hand keeping it level and in constant contact with the work surface. Using my right hand I take the uncapped tube and screw it onto the dev filled cap leaving it standing upright at all times. Carefully push it aside and repeat.

6. Turn on the lights.

7. Fill your trays with stop bath and fixer and place along side you BTZS tray.

8. Start your timer.

9. Take hold of the upright tubes with both hands and shake vigorously for 10 second.

10. Place the tubes in the water bath and spin continuously for your chosen time. Its much easier to spin an even number of tubes.

11. When development time is reached, uncap the tubes and dump the developer into a jug.

12. Place the uncapped tubes into the tray of stop bath and spin for 30 seconds or so.

13. Carefully remove the film from the tubes and place into the fixer tray. I use the shuffle method for fixing. Remember this is all done in the light (i use dim light) so you can see what you are doing while carefully shuffling the film through the fixer.

Watch Fred Newmans BTZS videos a few time more!

jeroldharter
30-Apr-2011, 11:47
Use what you have. Do what Kev said.

"Emulsion side out" means the emulsion faces the center of the tube.

Don't be afraid to make some mistakes. Not hard to figure out with practice.

Graybeard
30-Apr-2011, 12:26
In fact i feel i want to go this path as i dev my MF with one of those tanks, so i feel more comfortable if i know how to use it over the tray or the tubes, but what do you mean by standing in the dark? Is it required for deep tank?

The sheet film goes into metal film hangers - usually one sheet per hanger but there are multiple hangers available for 4x5 and 5x7.

The tanks are deep enough to immerse the film, in its hanger, completely. You process the film by putting the hanger into a tank filled with solution. Every minute or so you lift the hanger, let it drain, then put it back in. This is how agitation is achieved.

The film is loaded into the hangers in total darkness and all processing up to the fixer is done in complete darkness. If you are loading sheet film into film holders for your camera you won't have any trouble with this. A radio in the darkroom is nice for when you are standing in the dark.

You actually don't need tanks from a darkroom equipment manufacturer. Plastic food storage containers work perfectly well, especially for 4x5. I can get sturdy ones here for 3/$5. I wash the negatives, still in their hangers, in the slot washer that I use for prints. The width of your tanks will determine how many negatives you can do at one time - I can do up to six at once with my gear.

Jim Stone's book "A User's Guide to the View Camera" (ISBN0673520064) has a section on this.

I also had problems with scratches, especially when using trays, and uneven development problems with daylight loading tanks. I've had no problems since I began using hangers.

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 14:05
Hiya -

I called them up again to get clarification.

They can do E6 film up to 10x8 (including 5x7), but the machines they use for B&W can only handle up to 4x5 size.

Regards,

Gerald.

Hey,

In this case, i have to depend on myself to process my B&W at home, i will use them for color films only, no need to waste more money for B&W on labs, and i was planning to get 8x10 in the future, so if they can't handle larger than 8x10 for B&W then they are useless.

Thanks for asking them.

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 14:09
Hi Professional,

A deep tank is operated in the dark.

I considered BTZS tubes and understand they provide even agitation by bobbing randomly as you process. They should be good for avoiding scratches.

Some people say you can open them in regular light after developing because, logically, you are about to pour in stop bath and fixer so the exposure at that moment will not get developed.

I develop 4x5 B&W by tray. When I started, I got scratches. With practice I got fewer scratches.

I recently started using an infra-red viewer which might have reduced scratches by reducing fumbling.

I also supervise washing, because I think many of my original scratches came from washing in a tray with turbulent water.

I am sure if i try to use trays again i will get better output and less and less scratches, first time will not mean end of the world, but honestly i had a lot of pain doing it in my bathroom as it is the only place and i don't have a darkroom, so with pain and end up with scratches it is too much for, believe me if i use another method more comfortable even taking longer time and i get scratches i will not complain, i developed MF rolls and the last 3 rolls i did few weeks-month ago i got blank rolls, i was sad but i didn't complain and at least i enjoyed it and no pain, i still have one roll waiting and i may lose this one as well, so i prefer to develop sheets this way of processing rolls over the trays, if i have to use the trays then i think i should do that in our photography club where they have the darkroom and i can stand to develop my sheets in trays, not to sit near to the floor in my bathroom.

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 14:18
BTZS tubes come with instructions. They are very easy to use.

I can only tell you how I use them to develop 5x4.

You need your BTZS Tubes and their tray plus another two additional trays. One for stop bath and one for fixer and a large jug for dumping used developer.

I. Load your film into the tubes emulsion side out and attach the (empty) caps.

2. Mix up your chemicals to the correct temperature.

3. Fill up the BTZS tray with water at the right temperature e.g 20'c.

4. Fill the empty BTZS caps required with 60ml of you chosen developer.

5. Turn out the lights and carefully switch caps. Your tubes must remain upright at all times while switching the empty caps for the caps filled with developer.
You must not allow developer to make contact with the film at this point. Work on a level surface and leave the tubes standing.

Heres what I do. Remove the empty cap/s from the tube/s. Hold the cap filled with developer in my left hand keeping it level and in constant contact with the work surface. Using my right hand I take the uncapped tube and screw it onto the dev filled cap leaving it standing upright at all times. Carefully push it aside and repeat.

6. Turn on the lights.

7. Fill your trays with stop bath and fixer and place along side you BTZS tray.

8. Start your timer.

9. Take hold of the upright tubes with both hands and shake vigorously for 10 second.

10. Place the tubes in the water bath and spin continuously for your chosen time. Its much easier to spin an even number of tubes.

11. When development time is reached, uncap the tubes and dump the developer into a jug.

12. Place the uncapped tubes into the tray of stop bath and spin for 30 seconds or so.

13. Carefully remove the film from the tubes and place into the fixer tray. I use the shuffle method for fixing. Remember this is all done in the light (i use dim light) so you can see what you are doing while carefully shuffling the film through the fixer.

Watch Fred Newmans BTZS videos a few time more!


Use what you have. Do what Kev said.

"Emulsion side out" means the emulsion faces the center of the tube.

Don't be afraid to make some mistakes. Not hard to figure out with practice.

Thanks!

In fact i didn't know what amount i use for dev on the tubes, and you answered it, so what about the stop bath and the fixer?

I really not brave enough to try transferring the sheet after developer to stop bath and fixer in dim light, i really want that but how can i be sure it will work due to what you told me? Can't i do the same thing i did with developer with stop bath and fixer [switching caps]?

Using the tubes, what will be the time for developing, same as i use for rolls with small tanks?

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 14:21
The sheet film goes into metal film hangers - usually one sheet per hanger but there are multiple hangers available for 4x5 and 5x7.

The tanks are deep enough to immerse the film, in its hanger, completely. You process the film by putting the hanger into a tank filled with solution. Every minute or so you lift the hanger, let it drain, then put it back in. This is how agitation is achieved.

The film is loaded into the hangers in total darkness and all processing up to the fixer is done in complete darkness. If you are loading sheet film into film holders for your camera you won't have any trouble with this. A radio in the darkroom is nice for when you are standing in the dark.

You actually don't need tanks from a darkroom equipment manufacturer. Plastic food storage containers work perfectly well, especially for 4x5. I can get sturdy ones here for 3/$5. I wash the negatives, still in their hangers, in the slot washer that I use for prints. The width of your tanks will determine how many negatives you can do at one time - I can do up to six at once with my gear.

Jim Stone's book "A User's Guide to the View Camera" (ISBN0673520064) has a section on this.

I also had problems with scratches, especially when using trays, and uneven development problems with daylight loading tanks. I've had no problems since I began using hangers.

Post images of the hangers you use or you recommend of another manuf./brand, maybe i don't know which type of hangers i should use, also i am here in my country[UAE] not sure we have what you have or can find everything you have there, so please link me or post a sample of hangers and i will see.

aluncrockford
30-Apr-2011, 14:44
What I suggest you do is make a call to these people

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/categories/34/film-processing-equipment?page=7

There are a lot of other solutions but the Jobo expert is as good as it gets and you do not need a dark room, you load in a tent,Harrison, fuji dark box and away you go , the only other thing you will need is a roller base, you can process what ever format you want and it just as simple to do B&W as colour

Bill Burk
30-Apr-2011, 16:34
Thanks!

I really not brave enough to try transferring the sheet after developer to stop bath and fixer in dim light, i really want that but how can i be sure it will work due to what you told me?

Using the tubes, what will be the time for developing, same as i use for rolls with small tanks?

Hi Professional,

For the BTZS tubes, you prepare a large tray of stop bath and fixer, for example 32 ounces each. At the end of developing, be brave and open the tubes in regular light. Pour developer out and roll the open tube in the large tray of stop bath. Stop bath will go in and out of the tube freely. Same with fixer.

Light exposes the film when you open the tube in light. But you stop the developing so fast that the film is not ruined.

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 17:00
What I suggest you do is make a call to these people

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/categories/34/film-processing-equipment?page=7

There are a lot of other solutions but the Jobo expert is as good as it gets and you do not need a dark room, you load in a tent,Harrison, fuji dark box and away you go , the only other thing you will need is a roller base, you can process what ever format you want and it just as simple to do B&W as colour

Funny that i looked at them many times and i was going to order that so expensive machine which allow to develop B&W, C41, and E6 from 35 up to 4x5, but it was not my first priority to get it, but i may put it into consideration in the future if it will be available that time, i will start to use the kits i have rather than trays and see if they will work fine with me and i can minimize/eliminate issues.

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 17:02
Hi Professional,

For the BTZS tubes, you prepare a large tray of stop bath and fixer, for example 32 ounces each. At the end of developing, be brave and open the tubes in regular light. Pour developer out and roll the open tube in the large tray of stop bath. Stop bath will go in and out of the tube freely. Same with fixer.

Light exposes the film when you open the tube in light. But you stop the developing so fast that the film is not ruined.

Ok, cool, so i understand now that as long i developed the film the if i quickly move the film in to the stop bath then the light sensitive will be less affect or less sensitive than the film not developed at all, well, i have to give that a try, if it worked fine as you said then it may become my preferable or favorite process.

kev curry
30-Apr-2011, 19:53
Thanks!

In fact i didn't know what amount i use for dev on the tubes, and you answered it, so what about the stop bath and the fixer?

I really not brave enough to try transferring the sheet after developer to stop bath and fixer in dim light, i really want that but how can i be sure it will work due to what you told me? Can't i do the same thing i did with developer with stop bath and fixer [switching caps]?

Using the tubes, what will be the time for developing, same as i use for rolls with small tanks?

Just be brave, WORK IN THE LIGHT all will be well. I and many others do this all the time without a single problem. Do some test shots of the budgie riding a bike and jump right in.

Just use enough stop bath in a tray to allow it to make contact with the film when the tubes are lying flat in the solution. You will be spinning the tubes remember, so the film will get a good soaking as the tubes spin.

Just make sure you have enough fixer to properly fix your given number of sheets. Read the fixer instructions.

As for development times, that depends on many factors. Once you decide on what film and developer combination your going to use you could ask here for times as a starting point. You really have to do your own testing to establish your personal film speed/s and dev time/s or alternatively have someone else do it for you. Fred Newman of the ''View Camera Store'' does great film tests by post and email.

Processing film in BTZS tubes is fantastically easy and efficient once you do it a few times.

Stop worrying and over thinking everything you wont die if you make an arse of it;-)

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 20:42
Just be brave, WORK IN THE LIGHT all will be well. I and many others do this all the time without a single problem. Do some test shots of the budgie riding a bike and jump right in.

Just use enough stop bath in a tray to allow it to make contact with the film when the tubes are lying flat in the solution. You will be spinning the tubes remember, so the film will get a good soaking as the tubes spin.

Just make sure you have enough fixer to properly fix your given number of sheets. Read the fixer instructions.

As for development times, that depends on many factors. Once you decide on what film and developer combination your going to use you could ask here for times as a starting point. You really have to do your own testing to establish your personal film speed/s and dev time/s or alternatively have someone else do it for you. Fred Newman of the ''View Camera Store'' does great film tests by post and email.

Processing film in BTZS tubes is fantastically easy and efficient once you do it a few times.

Stop worrying and over thinking everything you wont die if you make an arse of it;-)

I am so worry worry, how dim the light should be, hehehe :D

OK, i will be brave and shoot something sooner or later and will give it a try, i have bought films for tests, so i will give those a go and see.

So if you said i have to ask here about time, then the films that i will use for tests are: Acros 100, Arista EDU Ultra 100 and 400, say i will shoot all of them at box speed, what will be the time for those on D76 [or Ilfosol 3 when i run out the D76, because i have almost 1L or less of D76 working solution].

How much enough is enough for stop bath and fixer?

BetterSense
30-Apr-2011, 22:02
For 4x5 I have tried just about every method, here are my thoughts:

Deep tanks and hangers: I don't mind standing in the dark, and I get absolutely no scratches, but with some film I have had uneven skies. Tanks are also only economical if you used replenished developers, because my tanks hold 1.75 liters.

Trays: I still have to stand in the dark, and my hands get developer on them, but I get perfectly even negatives if I use 1L of developer in an 8x10 tray. If I get in too big of a hurry, I can get scratches. I still use tanks and hangers for washing and fixing.

Daylight tanks: For developing a sheet or two, I have used "taco method" with normal MF/35mm daylight tanks with good success.

BTZS: I found it annoying to get the back/antihalation coating washed off the film, and I can't develop by inspection. I like to DBI, so BTZS tubes are out.

Professional
30-Apr-2011, 22:37
For 4x5 I have tried just about every method, here are my thoughts:

Deep tanks and hangers: I don't mind standing in the dark, and I get absolutely no scratches, but with some film I have had uneven skies. Tanks are also only economical if you used replenished developers, because my tanks hold 1.75 liters.

Trays: I still have to stand in the dark, and my hands get developer on them, but I get perfectly even negatives if I use 1L of developer in an 8x10 tray. If I get in too big of a hurry, I can get scratches. I still use tanks and hangers for washing and fixing.

Daylight tanks: For developing a sheet or two, I have used "taco method" with normal MF/35mm daylight tanks with good success.

BTZS: I found it annoying to get the back/antihalation coating washed off the film, and I can't develop by inspection. I like to DBI, so BTZS tubes are out.

Ah cool, good you end up with your impressions about different methods of 4x5 processing, will see what i will end up with as well.

Graybeard
1-May-2011, 05:12
[QUOTE=Professional;720028]Post images of the hangers you use or you recommend of another manuf./brand, maybe i don't know which type of hangers i should use, also i am here in my country[UAE] not sure we have what you have or can find everything you have there, so please link me or post a sample of hangers and i will see.[/QUOTE


The simplest thing is for you to go to eBay and search "film hangers". There are always many photographs in that category.

I use mostly the Kodak hangers, purchased secondhand, because that is what was available.

kev curry
1-May-2011, 05:15
It might be an idea to start a new thread asking if folks will share their film speeds and times for Acros/Foma/D76 in BTZS tubes to get you started.

If you want to just get started right away (highly recommended!!) with some test shots and put a tin lid on needless worrying about absolutely nothing, look up the ''Massive Development Chart'' or the recommendations of the manufacturer for the film/dev your using. Get the development time suggested and then reduce that time by a further 15-20%. Continuous agitation in tubes reduces dev time. Ignore box speed completely! Film makers love to lie about film speed. Shoot the film at half the box speed and take a note of everything you are doing for future reference.

Dont concern yourself with the anti-halation layer on the film. People that develop film in trays standing in the dark don't even know its their because they never see it...they only know about its existence on a theoretical level because someone told them so;-) That's why the film is removed from the tubes at the fixing stage, that way the fixer can get to the back of the film to magic it all away! You'll be able to observe this phenomenon first hand by virtue of the fact that this experience is the exclusive preserve of the super cool tube spinning BTZS aficionado;-)

So... its best to do the fixing in a tray or do as Fred Newman does in the videos and use hangers. I personally don't use hangers you dont need them. Its just something else to get hung up on (pun intended). You'll just put off developing film for the next 6 months because you'll be to busy reserching and soarcing the best and most wonderful hangers ever made. Then you'll have to spend another 3 months reaserching the best methods of how to load the film on to the damn things;-)

Anyway...you'll be fixing your film in the light so you can shuffle through the stack with care and do it easily without scratching with a bit of practice.

Practice and Mistakes are powerful teachers make friends with them starting today!

PS; if anyone has 1/2 dozen free hangers to give away I'll take them. Cheers;-)

jeroldharter
1-May-2011, 08:29
...
So... its best to do the fixing in a tray or do as Fred Newman does in the videos and use hangers....
PS; if anyone has 1/2 dozen free hangers to give away I'll take them. Cheers;-)

I use a slosher tray for that.

Once the open tubes are in the stop tray, I remove the film and place it in one of the six compartments of the slosher which is sitting in a tray of fixer. I always get a kick out of watching fixer clear - there is a sense of anticipation to see what turns out. I think a slosher would require less handling than using hangars and easier cleanup. Photographers Formulary sells them

Jim Noel
1-May-2011, 09:12
I have just about every known method of LF film development from trays to dip & dunk. to several tube methods including Jobo Expert tanks.
When I have a negative, or a group of negatives, which I want to be very sure about the development with smooth skies,correct contrast, etc., I always go to a tray one size larger than the film with 50% more developer than usual recommendation. The method has not failed me yet. No scratches, no weird streaks, no uneven development.

barnacle
3-May-2011, 06:45
One approach which I haven't seen mentioned is the old Patterson Orbital daylight tank. It was intended for prints, but it is quite happy with four 4x5 or two 5x7 or one 8x10 negatives. Once it's loaded - you can do it in a dark bag - then it's all done in daylight.

I'd include a pre-wash before development to shift the anti-halation layer and to ensure the easy wetting of the developer.

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps%20how%20orbital.html

I don't think it's available new any more, but it may turn up from time to time.

Neil

Michael Kadillak
3-May-2011, 09:15
Gaseous burst agitation. Consistent, absolutely repeatable results and all you have to do is flip a switch and sip a cup of coffee. The only moving part is the solenoid valve. It was the industry standard for over 40 years and it is how the professional labs do c41, e6 and DR5. All you need to know is the Kodak operating standards so the 4A hangers work perfectly as designed.

If tray development is not getting you the results you want give it a look. Similarly, when the JOBO does the dirt dance this is an excellent plan B. When you see the results it will quickly be your plan A.

Bob Salomon - HP Marketing
3-May-2011, 09:19
Gaseous burst agitation. Consistent, absolutely repeatable results and all you have to do is flip a switch and sip a cup of coffee. The only moving part is the solenoid valve. It was the industry standard for over 40

Lot longer then that. Though it was eplaced in larger labs by dip & dunk, roller transport and cine processors. But you did have to do more then sip a drink. You had to move those hangers from bath to bath in the dark.

Michael Kadillak
3-May-2011, 10:09
Lot longer then that. Though it was eplaced in larger labs by dip & dunk, roller transport and cine processors. But you did have to do more then sip a drink. You had to move those hangers from bath to bath in the dark.

You are correct Bob. You do have to put the coffee down toward the end of the development period to move the hangers to the stop and the fix. That is where the night vision monocle comes in handy. It allows you to see what you are doing during these transfers along with allowing you to pull a hanger out of the developer to do a development by inspection preview. This way you can do N-, N and N+ simultaneously.

jon.oman
3-May-2011, 13:12
Okay, what is the light source used in conjunction with the night vision goggles? I assume you have to have some source of light for this, since your darkroom should be dark!

BetterSense
3-May-2011, 13:37
He probably means IR goggles. I have IR goggles myself. Although some NVG's work so well that they would probably work even when light levels were low enough to not effect film.

Michael Kadillak
3-May-2011, 14:22
Okay, what is the light source used in conjunction with the night vision goggles? I assume you have to have some source of light for this, since your darkroom should be dark!

Some IR monocles have an Infrared light source attached to them as a part of the system. Testing will determine if the wavelength of the IR light produced by the monocle is sufficiently within the IR spectrum so as to not fog sheet film. I find the easiest process in this regard (as opposed to either assuming if testing is not your thing) is to bounce an external LED infrared light source off of an opposite wall in your darkroom that will more than adequately illuminate the room. I have another infrared LED light bank behind a diffused $1.50 Walmart standard light globe on the wall behind my developing sink that I can turn on with a foot switch for Development By Inspection. I hold up the shoot of film and see the IR light coming from behind the sheet film and evaluate the highlights to determine if the sheet film is fully developed.

The IR system assist with loading holders or 120 film spools and also with cutting down sheet film to smaller sizes.

jon.oman
3-May-2011, 19:17
What brand name and model of IR monocle are you using? This sounds insteresting.

Michael Kadillak
3-May-2011, 19:25
The subject has been bantered around a bit in the last few years. I wrote an article at michaelandpaula.com on the subject and a fair amount has been archived here on this forum.

I can PM you if you do not find your answer.

jon.oman
3-May-2011, 21:40
Thanks for the tip, I found my answer.

John DeFazio
7-May-2011, 15:51
In response to Post 289 re: film processing, I have a comment that may help you.
I also am fairly new to LF photography. I chose to develop my negative the exact way that I processed the 35mm and size 120 negatives. The only differences were the quantities of developer, stop-bath, fixer, and photo flo. I followed the directions on the film data sheet without any difficulty. I suppose the only real difference in processing the LF film was not the film itself, rather working with a 4x5 tank and the large film holders. Other than that, it was business as usual.
I suppose that working with such a large sheet of film compared to the 35mm and size 120, can be a little intimidating. But that's ok, cause it was a bit scarry when I devoloped my first 'small' roll of film a long time ago. So, today, just go for it, and 'press-on'. John D.