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lecep
12-Apr-2011, 03:10
Hello,

I might be one of the easiest part but i still can't get it right. Please check the sky on this picture to understand my problem: http://www.pbase.com/hrodez/image/133842671
Film is foma 100, devellopped in R09
My procedure is (with jobo tank- 2509n reel) :

- I empty the tank of remaining chemicals
- Film is washed with continious water during 10 min at 20 c
- I agitate the reel up and down inside the tank (still with water runing from the tape) to force remaining chemicals out during 5 min-
- i add 3 drops of wetting agent and agitate 2 min
- i remove the films and set them to dry in a durst t100 during approx 30 min at max heat.

This gives great results with 135...and horribles with 4x5. What is wrong here?

Thanks for your advices

Ari
12-Apr-2011, 07:43
I wash for about 8 minutes under running water, then empty the tank of all water.
I then fill the tank with clean, filtered water, add a few drops of wetting agent, and agitate for about 20s.
Then I hang the film to dry in a non-heated room.
From pre-soak to hanging, my film is wet for a total of 19 minutes (+/- 1 minute, depending on developing time with different emulsions).

I would suggest you reduce your wet time wherever possible, and perhaps see if your t100 is set too high. You could reduce the temperature by a half, and still have dry film in a convenient amount of time.
And maybe inspect your 35mm film very closely to make sure that the results are indeed great

Brian C. Miller
12-Apr-2011, 09:09
What is happening is that the water is drying on the film. Dry the film without heat.

The tank for the 2509 isn't too good for washing film. Use a hypo clear solution, and then wash for about five or six minutes with three exchanges of water. I have the Jobo hose wash accessory, and there is nothing to keep the water flowing directly over the film like the roll film tanks. I suppose that I could get a round piece of plastic cut to direct the water onto the film, but without that it will just go up the center without doing anything.

Nathan Potter
12-Apr-2011, 09:33
I'd guess Brian is correct. Never allow rinse water to evaporate on the film surface. Even if it is filtered and deionised it will leave a residue. The residue will contain dissolved salts and organic material to a greater or lesser degree depending on how thoroughly you remove the processing chemistry or the cleanliness of the rinse water.
At the end of the process use water as clean as you can get your hands on with a few drops of uncontaminated photoflo. The idea behind the photoflo is to sheet most of the volume of remaining water off the surface of the film leaving volumetrically little left to evaporate and hence little residue remaining in water spots on the film surface.

As they say - "cleanliness is next to godliness" when processing film.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

cyrus
12-Apr-2011, 14:46
Do a final rinse using distilled (not "spring") water. There's no need to apply heat. The fact that the roll film comes out fine while sheet film doesn't suggests that you don't hang up the sheet film to dry like you do the roll film?

lecep
13-Apr-2011, 02:27
OK, thanks for your answers.
I took another look at my films and there is no white residue as when I was not using wetting agent, it looks to be inside the emulsion.

However, I will try to cut washing with some hypo clearing agent and demineralised water. I will also dry the next batch colder.

Also, would it make sense to rinse briefly after using wetting agent to remove the excess of it? My film feels fat when i hang it, maybe there is too much of it?

One last thing: anybody squeezing the sheets after washing like with 135?

dsphotog
13-Apr-2011, 02:34
I'd try re-fixing that neg, with constant agitation. It might clear the blotches, then wash etc.
& yes, use distilled water with wetting solution, for the final rinse.

cyrus
13-Apr-2011, 08:56
If your film feels sticky and "fat" then yes you're probably using too much wetting agent. If you use distilled water for a final bath and hang up the negatives to drip dry there is no real need for wetting agent. I've noticed that half of one drop for 3 rolls of film in a developing tank is more than sufficient.

Richard Wasserman
13-Apr-2011, 09:39
I don't know if it's available in Norway, but I find that Edwal LFN is much better than Kodak Photoflo. Switching brands solved a similar problem I used to have.

lecep
18-Apr-2011, 03:13
I got the solution: I use a single drop of wetting agent (from foma) and dry 15 min cold, then 20 at full heat.
I still have som tiny traces on the edge of the film but it is ok.

Thansk for you advices!

Doremus Scudder
18-Apr-2011, 06:03
Iecep,

You might consider that your blotches are coming from another part of your processing. Such severe blotching could be due to uneven developing. Do you presoak? How do you immerse your film in the developer? Could you be contaminating the tank with fixer that gets onto the film before developing? Or, is the negative getting wet unevenly before you add developer? (This last is my guess as to the problem, and, if so, no wonder you have marks like this.)

I'm asking all these questions because I have never seen even bad washing and way too much PhotoFlo leave such marks on film. Try drying your tank completely before loading. Pre-soak by adding water and agitating for at least two minutes. Empty and let drain for 30 seconds. Then add developer as quickly as you can and begin agitation. If you are doing this already, then make sure you are using adequate stop before fixing. Also, make sure you drain completely and add solutions as quickly as practical.

FWIW, a longer wash will not hurt your film. A HypoClear treatment followed by at least ten minutes in running water is minimum. I use pyro developers and therefore no HypoClear. I wash for a minimum of 30 minutes, sometimes an hour... No ill effects. Wash time is not your problem.

Hard water can leave deposits and stains, but these usually are able to be felt on the outside of the negative and show profile in glancing light. Plus, they don't have the "droplet" look your negatives show. Nevertheless, use a distilled water final rinse with PhotoFlo added. I find Kodak's recommendation to be a bit strong and mix my PhotoFlo to about 2/3 strength. If I were you, I'd remove the film from the tank and give them the final rinse in a tray. If you wash in hard water, agitate the film in the distilled water solution for at least two minutes to make sure there is adequate water exchange in the emulsion. Longer will not hurt. You need some time for ion exchange between the hard water in the emulsion and the distilled water, not only time for the PhotoFlo to do its job.

I gently squeegee my film between two clean fingers and hang it by the corners. If I were you, I'd get rid of the film dryer. In my experience, film dryers cause more problems than they solve. Just hang the film in a dust-free place and, if you've squeegeed, they will dry in a few hours. Are you really in that much of a hurry?

Hope this helps some,

Doremus Scudder

edtog
18-Apr-2011, 10:31
I spray my 5x4 negs with distilled water/wetting agent using an old kitchen sprayer, just before they go into the drying cabinet, might be worth trying if you are having problems.

tgtaylor
18-Apr-2011, 11:33
To the above I'll add:

1. Don't agitate the Photo-Flo. Agitation causes it to foam-up. Instead just pour it in the tank and let it sit for 60 seconds only and then return to its storage bottle. If using one shot, then drop two drops into the tank and let it sit for 1 minute and pour out.

2. However you have more problems than just dried residue. See that light band across the top of the negative? That's not from photo-flo. Using the same tanks as you are that identical band started showing up on some of my 4x5 B&W negatives and always in the same location - the same as in yours - and only with B&W not with C-41 or E-6. My solution was to stop using that tank to process B&W by hand inversion and to use Kodak hard rubber tanks for dip-n-dunk B&W processing which delivers superior results IMO.

Is there anyone else out there that has experienced the same phenomena using the 2509N tank and reel that can shed more light on this problem?

Thomas

lecep
19-Apr-2011, 05:14
Oremius: the waves are going in the direction they had whil hanging in the drying cabinet so i think it happened whil drying. However, i wonder if it is due to some chemicals that were note rinsed... as it looks to be insode the emulsion .

I have bought a bag of Kodaks hypoclear that i am now using for paper and film (i put 10 ml stock solution in the jobo tank) and wash for 30 min.
Tried this yesterday and results are much better, have nothing even on the edges.

I am also rinsing a lot more between each steps in the jobo with half a liter.

Thomas: The white stripe appears only on some shots processed with Rodinal, not Tmax...I don t know why.
I used to process in bakkelit kodak tanks....what a mess :) Also, my 4 year old son is in love with the cpe2...

A last: Could you have a look at theses scans in full res and give me your tough about sharpness and development? The first is developped in Tmax, second in Rodinal(if small, clik on original size below the picture):
http://www.pbase.com/hrodez/image/133842627/original
http://www.pbase.com/hrodez/image/133842671/original

mpirie
19-Apr-2011, 05:47
Iecep,

I don't think the fault you've got came from drying, washing or wetting agents. I use 2059n tanks and reels for my 5x4 film too on my CPE2 and have seen the same markings.

One thing to check is for light leaks from your film holders. A light strip along one of the short edges is either from a leaking light trap at the darkslide end or at the hinged loading end. Most lilkely the former.

My markings were due to not using the two black film restraints that come with the reel. They are designed to break up the flow of the chemicals so that you don't get uneven development/stop/fixing.

You can also try a pre-soak to ensure the film is fully wet before the developer is added. I think you can add one or two drops of wetting agent to the pre-soak to make sure the soak is even.

Mike

lecep
19-Apr-2011, 06:29
i do presoak, there is a LOT of blue anti halo stuff to remove from the film prior to development

Brian Ellis
19-Apr-2011, 07:36
I don't know if it's available in Norway, but I find that Edwal LFN is much better than Kodak Photoflo. Switching brands solved a similar problem I used to have.

Same here. I used LFN and thought it was much better than Photoflo. IIRC (it's been a long time) if you follow the dilutions Kodak suggests on the Photoflo bottle you end up with a solution that's much too concentrated.

Jim Noel
19-Apr-2011, 09:19
Using Photo-Flo on film which is still on the reels is asking for problems later. Over time Photo-Flo will build up on the reels and act as a catalyst increasing the development along the edges of the film. Switching to LFN and/or removing the film from the reels and doing the final rinse in a tray is much safer.

Randy
19-Apr-2011, 09:49
It just looks to me like it is drying to fast/to hot. I never use wetting agents and seldom use distilled water rinse as a final soak. For sheet film final wash, in trays, I just fill with water and let soak, dumping, refilling, and agitating every 6-8 minutes for about an hour, then I hang along a rod in the bathroom, close the door and any heater/AC vents and let it dry undisturbed over night. I never get any kind of streaking.

tgtaylor
25-Apr-2011, 20:02
To the above I'll add:

1. Don't agitate the Photo-Flo. Agitation causes it to foam-up. Instead just pour it in the tank and let it sit for 60 seconds only and then return to its storage bottle. If using one shot, then drop two drops into the tank and let it sit for 1 minute and pour out.

2. However you have more problems than just dried residue. See that light band across the top of the negative? That's not from photo-flo. Using the same tanks as you are that identical band started showing up on some of my 4x5 B&W negatives and always in the same location - the same as in yours - and only with B&W not with C-41 or E-6. My solution was to stop using that tank to process B&W by hand inversion and to use Kodak hard rubber tanks for dip-n-dunk B&W processing which delivers superior results IMO.

Is there anyone else out there that has experienced the same phenomena using the 2509N tank and reel that can shed more light on this problem?

Thomas

Here's a follow-up for anyone still following this.

Today I processed 4 sheets (2 TMax 100 and 2 Fuji Acros) at the same time using a Jobo 2521 Tank and 2509N Reel with a Jobo CPA-2. The developer was Xtol 1:1 @ 68F for 9.75 minutes. There was no light band appearing on the negative which leads me to conclude, in order of possibility with respect to hand inversion, that:

1. The light band is a result of inadequate filing of the tank. If that's the case then the remedy would be to fill the tank until it overflows slightly out of the spigot.

2. The light band is due to inadequate flow at that position on the negative. If that's the case then the remedy would be to agitate with a pronounced circular motion.

Thomas