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mikew
2-Apr-2011, 13:41
Hi everyone,

I've recently began experimenting with Pyrocat-HD and Pyrocat-M. For whatever reason, my minimal agitation tray processing methods that work with D-76, Rodinal, and HC-110 don't yield completely even development in large areas of even tonality when processed in Pyrocat. I can get a neg (FP4) to within +/- log .05 but it still looks slightly uneven and there's an issue with finger prints. So I've tried experimenting with different kinds of tubes from BTZS to PVC and ABS tubes.

My questions are:

1. Does anyone have experience using 5x7 film in 8x10 BTZS tubes? I know that there will be an issue with getting the film in and out but I figured that the presoak would mitigate that. Would it work? I was going to try once my tubes arrive in the mail.

2. If I were using 2" ID PVC tubes for 5x7 film to be put in a 8x10 or 11x14 beseler drum, is there a way of fabricating the tubes to minimize scratching? Once cut, the edges of the tubes have to be sanded but I'm wondering about the inside surface of the tube and whether it needs to be sanded with as fine of a sandpaper or even steel wool as possible. I ask because some of the ABS tube I bought has small burrs inside (though I was using the ABS for a more BTZS-style tube). Sanding is obviously problematic but I can't think of any other way to get that interior surface as smooth as possible.

Any insight into this would be great.

Thanks,

Mike

Kevin J. Kolosky
2-Apr-2011, 19:23
I have often wondered why one couldn't use very very thin pieces of foam with tubes.
that way solution would more easily migrate to the back of the piece of film, and you would also avoid scratches. It would have to be very thin, and very cheap.

Is there a reason why it would not work.

Micheal Clark
2-Apr-2011, 20:15
I've used the abs tubes with 5x7 film and have not had any problems with scratching of film but if there was some burr's inside the tube I would sand them down with some 220 grit paper for sure.Don't have a motor base ,just roll the tube back and forth in the sink.

Curt
2-Apr-2011, 20:43
I've used the abs tubes with 5x7 film and have not had any problems with scratching of film but if there was some burr's inside the tube I would sand them down with some 220 grit paper for sure.Don't have a motor base ,just roll the tube back and forth in the sink.

Mike, are you using Pyrocat HD with the tubes?

mikew
3-Apr-2011, 09:49
Kevin - That's a really interesting idea but I'm sure there's a reason why foam isn't used. I'm assuming it's because people have had enough success without foam so it hasn't been needed.

Micheal - That's good to know. Did you make them yourself? And if so, what type of cap fitting did you use? The BTZS tubes that I've made with ABS don't have the typical kind of BTZS cap that holds the chemistry. Would this cap be a custom fitting or do I have to change hardware stores?

Curt - I haven't heard of any major issues with processing with Pyrocat-HD in tubes; at least, very few that aren't related to human error.

Thanks guys.

Jay DeFehr
3-Apr-2011, 11:06
The exotic approach to the film/tube contact problem involves some special tools and techniques. With the tube sealed closed, apply heat to the mid section with a heat gun. It helps if the tube is rotating, to keep the heat even. As the tube wall warms, the internal pressure will cause a barrel distortion. It doesn't take much distortion to do the job of allowing developer to circulate behind the film. As for scratches, I've never had that problem, but I'm careful to smooth everything before introducing film.

DarkroomDan
3-Apr-2011, 12:08
I have been using homemade 2" ABS tubes for years to develop 5X7 and, more recently, 5x12 film in Pyrocat HD. Except for a couple of times when I got careless and scratched a negative with my fingernail when removing the film from the tubes, I haven't experienced any problems with the tubes marking my negatives.

I load the film, fill the tube with my presoak water and close the tube with a slip-on cap. I fill another cap that I fabricated with the developer. This piece consists of another cap glued to an appropriate length of 2" ABS that is also glued to a 2" slip-on coupling. I fill this unit to near the joint line with my developer - for 5x7 this is about 100ml. When everything is ready, I dump the presoak and attach the developer unit being careful to keep the whole thing vertical until I am ready to start development.

I manually rotate the tubes while they are floating in a water bath.

At the end of development, I dump the developer and drop the tubes in a tray of weak stop bath. After all the film is in the stop, I turn on my regular safelight and remove the film from the tubes - no, this doesn't fog the film. I then tray fix and wash.

I know that Fred Newman at The View Camera Store (http://www.viewcamerastore.com/) has videos showing all of this. You might want to look around his site to see if you can find them.

Dan

Erik Larsen
3-Apr-2011, 12:52
I have often wondered why one couldn't use very very thin pieces of foam with tubes.
that way solution would more easily migrate to the back of the piece of film, and you would also avoid scratches. It would have to be very thin, and very cheap.

Is there a reason why it would not work.

I don't see why it wouldn't work. I use fiberglass window screen to line my jobo print drums to develop 8x10 and 11x14 film and it works hassle free. It lets chemicals get the back side of the film and it makes it easier to get the film out of the drum. It might work for the btzs tubes as well?
regards
erik

mikew
3-Apr-2011, 19:24
Jay - I've never thought of augmenting the shape of the tube but it makes sense. Thanks for that. I've always wanted a heat gun.

Dan - Thanks for the info. I really appreciate that. My 'real' BTZS tubes should be arriving shortly although I'm familiar with the process associated with them and not worried about 8x10 stuff - at least at the moment. It's a relief to know that there are ways of fabricating similar tubes for 5x7. With the cap that you made, were these just miscellaneous ABS parts that you glued together with ABS glue I assume? Or did you doctor specific pieces? Thanks again!

Micheal Clark
3-Apr-2011, 21:17
Mike, are you using Pyrocat HD with the tubes?
I have used the Rollie pyro once or twice,mostly use Xtol or D-76.

Micheal Clark
3-Apr-2011, 21:41
Kevin - That's a really interesting idea but I'm sure there's a reason why foam isn't used. I'm assuming it's because people have had enough success without foam so it hasn't been needed.

Micheal - That's good to know. Did you make them yourself? And if so, what type of cap fitting did you use? The BTZS tubes that I've made with ABS don't have the typical kind of BTZS cap that holds the chemistry. Would this cap be a custom fitting or do I have to change hardware stores?

Curt - I haven't heard of any major issues with processing with Pyrocat-HD in tubes; at least, very few that aren't related to human error.

Thanks guys.
One end cap is cemented to the main tube and on the other end a collar is cemented. The other cap is cemented to a short piece of tube,this is used as the lid which will slip into the collar and not cemented.It leaks a little but not enough to bother with.

Mike

frednewman
4-Apr-2011, 08:24
Hi Mike

I have posted a video on youtube.com on using 5x7 film in the 8x10 BTZS Tubes. I had gotten a phone call from a photographer in Australia wanting to process 5x7 film in the 8x10 BTZS tubes. So I told him I would test it first and then do a video on youtube.com, so he could see how it works.

To find the videos on youtube.com, just do a search on the word "viewcamerastore".

5x7 film does work fine in the 8x10 tubes and even getting the film out of the tubes was no problem - just watch the video. You might also want to watch the video on using the 8x10 BTZS tubes. You still have to use 8 oz of developer in the tube as you would with 8x10 film so you have enough developer to cover the film area.

I have not used any of the pyro developers, but I don't see any reason why they won't work with the tubes.

I hope this helps.

Fred Newman

mikew
4-Apr-2011, 09:59
Thanks for that Mike. I see that I was missing a few things in my thought process. I had some issues with gluing too. Nothing major.

Fred - I completely missed that 5x7 vid. I'll track that down. Can't wait to start testing. Thanks!!

Bob Farr
4-Apr-2011, 11:59
Hi,

I've used the black abs tubes to stand develop 5x7 & 5x12 FP4 in Pyrocat-HD [1:1:150]. After some unpleasant experience with scratches on the back of the film I switched to BTZS 8x10 tubes. This works very well with 8 oz of developer, though Pyrocat-HD [1:1:100] does not seem to work well with rotary agitation. At the end of the developing cycle it is necessary to open the tubes as soon as possible. Sometimes the film slips down into the cap with one end sitting in the developer, resulting in over development in this area. Once becoming aware of this difficulty I didn't have any problems with this process. I experimented with XTOL & DDX with the BTZS tubes and had some good results. But have returned to tray processing with Pyrocat-HD [1:1:100].

DarkroomDan
4-Apr-2011, 14:37
Dan ... With the cap that you made, were these just miscellaneous ABS parts that you glued together with ABS glue I assume? Or did you doctor specific pieces? Thanks again!


The parts are standard ABS plumbing fittings that I picked up at Lowes or Home Depot Yes, they are just glued together with ABS glue. Which reminds me, the glue is strong smelling and seems to persist for at least several days. I would recommend storing them outside the darkroom for a while after you first make them. I would also leave them open so the tubes air out before you use them.

I have not had problems with the tubes scratching the backs of my negatives. If you decide to make some of these, you might want to inspect the tubing before assembling and maybe wrap some sandpaper around a dowel and sand any rough spots. You will definitely have to sand the cut ends of the tubes.

Dan

sanking
4-Apr-2011, 18:35
I have not had problems with the tubes scratching the backs of my negatives. If you decide to make some of these, you might want to inspect the tubing before assembling and maybe wrap some sandpaper around a dowel and sand any rough spots. You will definitely have to sand the cut ends of the tubes.

Dan

The best way to smooth the inside of the tubes, and the edges, is with acetone. Acetone melts ABS plastic and leaves no rough edges.

Sandy

mikew
6-Apr-2011, 10:02
Thanks for all this great info everyone. I really appreciate all the help.

ElRooster
6-Apr-2011, 13:39
Thanks for that Mike. I see that I was missing a few things in my thought process. I had some issues with gluing too. Nothing major.

Fred - I completely missed that 5x7 vid. I'll track that down. Can't wait to start testing. Thanks!!

Here is a link to that 5x7 video

http://www.youtube.com/user/viewcamerastore#p/u/3/iHeHLqynKUc