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Richard K.
25-Mar-2011, 16:11
I won an apparent Grubb B lens on eBay today - I was looking originally for a Grubb-C Aplanatic Pat. 1857 in order to share acquaintance with one of what Watkins apparently worked with. I looked up information in Vademecum and it seems that this meniscus style lens may have been labelled B even though they were usually labelled C previously? Were the other Bs RRs? What do I have here and from what year? My B lens has serial number 2890 and one sold a while back in another venue and labelled C has serial number 2795, same dimensions as mine (mine is 12" focal length). But, they look like the same lens design to me - see below (mine, labelled B is on the right). Can someone please elucidate? Thank you!

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/RichardK47/Grubb.jpg

Wimpler
25-Mar-2011, 23:29
I'll browse my literature and come back to you.

Steven Tribe
26-Mar-2011, 01:40
There has been a previous discussion with illustrations.
It is obvious that the VM's suggestion about the meaning (type of product) of the A B etc is wrong and that there seems to be a connection with size.
I have the same lens as you - labelled A sn 1686.
Many have an additional smaller number(?) after the large letter. Mine looks like A followed by small 6. Main barrel is just over 57mm in diameter.

CCHarrison
26-Mar-2011, 04:40
The attached image is from Milan Zahorcak from his ebay listing of the lens.

Dan

Richard K.
26-Mar-2011, 05:59
Thanks guys, any idea what year that serial # puts it at?

Steven Tribe
26-Mar-2011, 07:24
Dear Richard. This was my answer to you last time you asked me (February last year).

"Check out the recent thread here (December) on Grubb. This objective is identical to the one I have - my serial number is 1686. This is the Dublin period probably 1858/1859. Patent date is 1857 I think. There is no other info available on line."

If some could measure their barrel diameter (like I have done) we might be able to say something about the letter/number code. This includes both the loose washer and the rotary later variation.

Steven Tribe
26-Mar-2011, 15:15
I have just been in and re-read the VM on Grubb. There are quite a lot of serial numbers and sizes given there and "letters" and focal lengths. Perhaps if aplanatic owners here could do a check of letters/numbers, serial number, focal length and barrel diameter, we could could crack the "Henry Grubb" code?

Richard K.
26-Mar-2011, 15:20
I'll post my information as soon as I get the lens, which is winging over as we read this...

Richard K.
26-Mar-2011, 15:37
I have just been in and re-read the VM on Grubb.


Steven, I went back and reread the December posts and I am more confused than ever...I hope that a few measurements and posts might help here. Seems a bit random to me...:confused:

CCHarrison
30-Mar-2011, 10:22
After exhaustive searching, I found ads for Grubb's lens....1883

Dan

PS - I think, like Steven, it has to do with barrel size/depth - flange size??. Here is a nice image of an 'A' model http://www.peterloy.com/_images/gallery_images/1297444459-1.jpg

Steven Tribe
30-Mar-2011, 10:54
Well done. In all modesty, you forgot to mention that you also found the sizes for the aplanatic doublet (which Grubb claimed was purloined by Dallmeyer re. the RR!) which appears to be very rare.
But I don't understand why all the Grubb aplanatics we have found, have such low numbers if they were still available in the 1880's?

The new "A", c/o Peterloy, looks like the same size (proportions) as my "A".

A bit more information about Grubb is that the original London agent for Grubb at the start of the 1860's was (Israel) Joseph Solomon of Russell Square who ceased trading around 1872. Perhaps Watson took over the agency at this time?

CCHarrison
31-Mar-2011, 04:25
In trying to crack the Grubb code, I ran across references to Grubb's telescopes.... I found an 1888 Grubb Telescope catalogue with plenty of references to "Class B" and "Class C" telescopes. And then references to Specifications "A" and "B" which appear to relate to build quality... Please see this link to an 1888 Grubb Catalogue (http://www.sil.si.edu/digitalcollections/trade-literature/scientific-instruments/files/51620/imagepages/image1.htm).. I am now thinking the letters on the photo lenses have to do with max aperture size of the lens or stops supplied?

Dan

PS - it references Grubb's swith to Watsons as agent too...

Steven Tribe
31-Mar-2011, 04:53
Tempting to think of A,B and C as quality gradings - a great shock for B and C owners!
I don't think it can be correct as there are, at least, E's around (5 quality grades seems unlikely).
If it is aperture size, then there should be more As than Bs etc.?

CCHarrison
31-Mar-2011, 09:57
I think it has to do with aperture size. Remember Grubb's lens was touted as using faster apertures than similiar landscape lenses of the day. Given Grubb's focus on aperture - it must relate to that...

Dan

Steven Tribe
16-Aug-2017, 06:48
I have found a mention of the Grubb code system in an 1861 photographic note!
Just a passing remark, but it means that C coded lenses are designed for 10x8" coverage. So A and B are for smaller formats. I would imagine that the numeral indicates the maximum speed of the lens.

Steven Tribe
18-Aug-2017, 03:07
Here is a very basic list of Grubb serial numbers which I have gathered during the last few days.
There is an advert in a British Journal in the late 1850's which I yet to get hold of.
The sizes which dominate are A (1/2 plate?), B (full plate plate? and C (10x8"). I have a seen a source which mentions A to E sizes, but have only seen a single D size. Additional "Digits" are only sometimes present. I have seen : 0, X, 2 and 3.

The size marking didn't start until after serial number 546, but was in operation by at least 756.

The Grubb models seen were:

- Ordinary Petzvals.

- Patent Petzvals. These had a bayonnet type flange mounting, which allowed some turn of the barrel. It is uncertain as to whether the patent referrs to the mounting, or whether the Petzval employs the patent "aplanatic" lens as a front achromat!

- A heavy duty Landscape Patent Aplanatic lens, where a very visible screw-in system with a single aperture opening cause change in the F values. This apparently has a scale system marked - but doesn't correpond to any known f scale.

- A neat pill-box style Aplanatic landscape meniscus. The system is an obvious development of the above model, but with only two positions. There is the usual system of various sized washer stops for the pill box. This, by far, the commonest model found. It is regularly offered incomplete, where the front section has been removed. It is easily recognised as there are pairs of screws in the side of the barrel.

- A late landscape model (new engraving style without A,B,C etc) giving size of plate covered. Aperture control is by wheel stops - similar to Dallmeyer's landscape series.

Serial Numbers.

264 patent aplanatic auction 2018
359 1/4 plate Petzval
483 patent 18"
509 patent helicoid aplanatic
546 patent helicoid aplanatic
647 patent (helicoid?) aplantic - Science Museum/South Kensington London
696
756! patent helicoid aplanatic
756 C Error?
790 Petzval ebay july 2018
870 landscape
879 landscape

Introduction of A, B, C etc. sizing engravings?

986 A2 petzval - the "A2" has a different style engraving.
993 A2 petzval
1066 A3
1449 A2 small Petzval
1539 C landscape 43cm
1554 C
1686 A
2071 A3 Petzval 140mm
2241 A
2409 D aplanatic
2410 D aplanatic
2719 C
2795 C
2890 B
3147 Ao
3510 D
3631 Ax

ANCD sizing given up? 2409/10 stereo pair engraved both D, suggest that D was used for stereo pairs. 2409/2410 aplanatics are quite small!

5046 Watson engraved double celled aplanatic
5204
5218
5308 New engraving style "10x8". Wheel stop aplanatic.

I will update this list when I can add more flesh to the bones!

Willeica
26-Oct-2017, 04:37
I am based in Dublin and have written this article about Grubb family and their later lens making relationship with the Parsons family.

http://macfilos.com/photo/2017/4/9/grubb-and-parsons-optical-and-engineering-giants?rq=Grubb

I am also the proud owner of the following Grubb lenses

509 mentioned and pictured in the article but not on Steven's list
3631 which is on Steven's list

In addition I know that 879 is now in the hands of a Grubb relative.

Grubb addressed the Royal Dublin Society about his lens design on March 26th 1858. I have a copy of what is said to be his address but they look more a printed version of speaking notes

171226

I am a member of the Royal Dublin Society (RDS) and tomorrow a group from the RDS will go to view the Grubb Telescope at Dunsink Observatory near Dublin.

To finish off my introduction, I am a collector of mainly small format cameras such as Leicas and a keen amateur photographer, but my growing interest in Grubb, because of the Dublin connection, is stimulating my interest in larger formats.

William

pgk
8-May-2018, 05:06
This link adds another lens to the list: https://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co15783/aplanatic-camera-lens-by-grubb-camera-lens unfortunately no photo but they state that lens number 647 was a patent aplanat and that it was made in 1857 - I wonder if an email would produce more info and perhaps a photo?

Steven Tribe
8-May-2018, 05:40
I had added this patent aplanatic to the list. It will be the early version with helicoid front.

pgk
8-May-2018, 12:58
Thanks. Do you think that their dating is correct?

Steven Tribe
8-May-2018, 13:13
Yes!

I used to often take a bus to visit the Science Museum in my childhood. Most time was spent in the early "interactive" section, though! Very grateful to Prince Albert and the procedes of the Great Exhibition of 1851!

I always wonder about Grubb and his obvious decision to drop photographic optics where he could have made contibutions after the "aplanatic".

pgk
8-May-2018, 13:37
Here's another: http://www.mwclassic.com/product/howard-grubb-dublin-12-inch-estimated-aplanatic-10x8-single-element-very-early-brass-lens-with-rotating-wheel-apertures/ s/n 5308 covers 10x8. The script used seems much more industrial than that in most other photos of Grubbs. Could it be that by this time the photographic lenses were seen as less mainstream products for the company I wonder?

Steven Tribe
8-May-2018, 14:23
Damn!
More radical editing of the serial no. list/types required!
Completely different engraving. The A, B, C etc sizing given up. Last known lens. Etc!

Grubb is recorded as moving his photographic lenses to England towards the end of his production.

pgk
9-May-2018, 01:59
The engraving looks much 'cruder' to me - I wonder if this is the clue to dating this lens? Thomas Grubb was (if you read willeica's article) chief engineer to the Bank of Ireland where he developed a consistent technique for the printing of banknotes. I can't see him accepting such a crude engraving. He died in 1878. But would this lens design still be valid after his death or would its production run have been much shorter? The engraving looks as though its produced by a different process? Could it possibly be that by the time that this lens was produced they were being made elsewhere (England as you suggest?) or even under licence?

[5046 and 5308 are both 'Howard Grubb' and have Block capital engraving].

Willeica
9-May-2018, 04:13
Howard would have pretty much taken over the business before his father died, having joined the firm in 1864. I think that the Great Melbourne Telescope was a turning point as regards Astronomy. My article since has been published in the 'Orbit' the Journal of the Irish Astronomical Society. They tell me that they are organising an anniversary to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the Grubb Telescope in Dunsink Observatory on 13th June 2018, which would make its 'birth date' 13th June 1868. I have photographed the Dunsink telescope and in one photo I put my two Grubb lenses beside their younger, but much bigger, brother. I also did this with one of the two coelostat machines made by Grubb which are in the observatory. One of those machines was used to prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity early in the last century.

The Grubb firm moved to St Albans in 1918 before moving to Newcastle as Grubb Parsons in 1925. By 1918 a lot of its business was related to periscopes for the Royal Navy. Last week a friend in our local camera club told me that his wife's grandmother worked on periscope manufacture in the Rathmines factory before the move to St Albans. She did not move to St Albans, but some male members of staff did so. They later returned to Ireland. The equipment from the Rathmines factory was moved to St Albans and on to Newcastle. It was still in use late in the 20th Century as is shown in the BBC video which I linked from my article. They still had the original instruction books for the equipment marked 'Rathmines, Dublin' for a date in the 1880s, if I remember correctly.

6 Grubb brass photographic lenses were on sale at Breker Auction last year after I bought my first one. I bought one and another one was also bought on the day of the auction. Another one was bought after the auction by a member of the wider Grubb family who is known to me. I also tipped off a collector in Texas who bought the remaining 3, so all 6 Grubb lenses went to good homes. One of the later lenses in the auction an Aplanatic Doublet No 5046 from 1975 had ordinary lettering on its side and is marked 'Howard Grubb Dublin'. It is also marked 'Watson and Sons, 313 High Holborn, London Agents'. I do recall reading some material from the 'photographic press' and 'club magazines' of the day which indicated that Grubb was facing a lot of resistance from the photographic establishment in England and this may explain why he used an agent and later decided to concentrate his talents elsewhere.

I visited Thomas Grubb's grave in Mount Jerome Cemetery some months ago and I have some photos. Howard's grave is in Deansgrange Cemetery and I intend to visit that soon.

The Grubb story is a fascinating one and not just in the field of brass lenses.

William

Steven Tribe
9-May-2018, 04:20
I have just read the Lens Vade Mecum on Grubb. The move to England was in 1918 and was probably concerned mostly his other interests. LVM talks quite a lot about the new design/engraving and gives some 5xxx serial numbers. It does say Dublin and Howard Grubb on the late models. His production was so small and the late lenses look well produced so I think he had someone else make these. The landscape aplanatic had a good reputation, so was still a saleable article in the 1880's.

Later:

Thanks for the first-hand information - quite a rare thing these days!

Willeica
9-May-2018, 08:40
In my earlier post, '1975' should read '1875'.

William

pgk
15-May-2018, 11:31
Another for the list: 483 Grubb Dublin Patent (18”)

Steven Tribe
30-Sep-2018, 02:53
I have added what looks like a stereo pair ( 2409/2410 aplanatic D) to-day to the serial number/type listing.
As these are quite small, I must conclude that "D" lenses are not those those that cover more 8"x10", but are for the standard stereo size of the period. I remember that Dallmeyer had specific lens series that were designated "stereoscopic" during this period.

These two tiny lenses (glass diameter just over 1") were listed as two separate items. 2409 had another front lens added. there was a simplied aperture system on these D lenses.

Two23
30-Sep-2018, 19:27
I am the owner of Grubb Petzval No. 359. Looks like quarter plate, marked, "Dublin."


Kent in SD

pgk
3-Oct-2018, 04:35
I have added what looks like a stereo pair ( 2409/2410 aplanatic D) to-day to the serial number/type listing.
As these are quite small, I must conclude that "D" lenses are not those those that cover more 8"x10", but are for the standard stereo size of the period. I remember that Dallmeyer had specific lens series that were designated "stereoscopic" during this period.

These two tiny lenses (glass diameter just over 1") were listed as two separate items. 2409 had another front lens added. there was a simplied aperture system on these D lenses.

Well I took the risk and bought 2409. The added front lens has proven to be a Ross Symmetric No.3 of 5" focal length from about 1875-1880 and complete, except for its wheel stops. I'm pretty sure that the only reason it was fitted to the Grubb lens is because the thread (~38mm diameter) happened to be the same - does anyone know the specification of this thread? I'll sell on the Ross lens I think, as its of little interest to me and whilst it was an interesting addition, I very much doubt that it actually should have been fitted to the Grubb.

Which leaves the Grubb lens. Its coverage is surprisingly large - Whole Plate I think, viewing it roughly on a 10" x 8" screen - and larger than I'd have anticipated for a stereo lens. Any comments about this would be appreciated. I can probably get a new 'top hat style brass frontage made for the Grubb, or perhaps simply fit a shutter on the front in order to use it instead. I'm assuming, as above, that since the lens is engraved 'patent' that its optics are in fact of Grubb's Aplanatic patent design?

Steven Tribe
4-Oct-2018, 13:30
I didn't think there was any risk - either with 2409 or 2410 and I made bids only on 2409 because of the flange being present! It is certainly aplanatic!
I was surprised the stereo "crowd" didn't try and get this pair as there can't be many Grubb stereo sets which are still intact - except those still on their original cameras.

Amedeus
4-Oct-2018, 14:42
I didn't think there was any risk - either with 2409 or 2410 and I made bids only on 2409 because of the flange being present! It is certainly aplanatic!
I was surprised the stereo "crowd" didn't try and get this pair as there can't be many Grubb stereo sets which are still intact - except those still on their original cameras.

Hahaha ... I was going to bid on both and missed the second one because of an IT failure ...

Ohhh well ...

pgk
5-Oct-2018, 01:29
Thanks for the replies. I intend to use the lens so I may get a replacement brass section made as I know someone who probably can do this. From measurements made off the photos of 2410 it looks like the figures were all very simple (in 1/8" increments for the most part by the look of it). Anyway FWIW, and I hope Stephen doesn't mind, here's an updated list of Grubbs which includes text of their engraved information where available, information (in brackets) and whether a photograph (P) has been taken/viewed/seen. Any more info/photos welcomed!

264 Grubb Patent P
359 Grubb Dublin (petzval 1/4 plate?)
483 Grubb Dublin Patent P
509 Grubb Patent (helicoid aplanatic) P
546 Grubb Patent (helicoid aplanatic)
552 Grubb Patent Sold by W. Morley. 70 Upper St
588 Grubb Patent
647 Aplanatic (sciencemuseum.org.uk made in 1857)
696 Grubb Patent
756 (C?) Grubb Patent (helicoid aplanatic) P
790 (ebay - described as '10”x8” landscape’ (petzval?) P
870 (landscape?)
879 A Grubb Patent (landscape?) P
986 A2 (petzval - the "A2" has a different style engraving style)
993 A2 Grubb Dublin (petzval?) P
1066 A3 Grubb Dublin (petzval) P
1449 A2 (small petzval)
1539 C Grubb Patent (landscape? 43cm) P
1554 C Grubb Patent (on ebay - no glass) P
1686 A (1858/9?)
1918 A0 Grubb Patent
2071 A3 Grubb Dublin (petzval? 140mm) P
2215 B Grubb Patent Doublet P looks identical to 2216/7
2216 B Grubb Patent Doublet - Stereo Pair with 2217
2217 B Grubb Patent Doublet P (engraving only)
2227 Grubb Doublet Aplanatic Meniscus (Single) (Waterhouse Stops)
2241 A Grubb Patent P
2409 D Grubb Patent (approx. 5 1/2" & appears to cover whole plate) P
2410 D Grubb Patent (probably as 2409 - stereo pair?) P
2603 Grubb Patent (8” f/8) - 1862 Hasbroeck
2627 E Grubb Patent Aplanatic Meniscus (Single) (7in?)
2676 A3 Grubb Dublin (ebay - missing the front glass) P
2719 C ???
2729 B Grubb Patent Aplanatic Meniscus (Single) (10in?)
2795 C ???
2890 B ???
3147 A0 Grubb Patent P
3465 Grubb Doublet
3510 D Grubb Patent (Barrel engraved ' Sold by Morley 70 Upper St. 6012'. Morley's number of 6012 is also on the flange) P
3631 Ax Grubb Patent (1864?) P
- - - Could be around 1878 when Thomas Grubb died? - - -
5046 Howard Grubb Aplanatic Doublet (Watson engraved double celled aplanatic) P
5148 Grubb Doublet
5204 Grubb Doublet
5218 ???
5308 Howard Grubb Dublin Aplanatic 10 x 8 P

Steven Tribe
5-Oct-2018, 06:04
No problem - I normally update the original list of serial number and types without a completely new posting.

Morley was quite a high volume seller of stereoscopic sets, so the D lens 3510 supports the idea of D being reserved for stereo paired lenses. 1554 C looks to be very strange item!

pjd
5-Oct-2018, 21:21
I found it a little surprising that attention was indirectly drawn to those lenses (active auctions on eBay) before the auctions ended. Against forum etiquette, if not rules.

Steven Tribe
5-Oct-2018, 23:04
Yes, looking at posting #29 now does give the impression of a rule break!

The posting during the ebay listing was just the first two paragraphs, which are innocent.

The last paragraph (and attached photo) was added AFTER the listing had ended.

pgk
8-Dec-2018, 06:04
This advert of Grubb Lenses from circa 1870 may help somewhat!

185253

185254

Steven Tribe
9-Dec-2018, 12:30
Well, we were not really in error!!

One problem is that that so few of the larger aplanatics (larger than D) have survived and he used C and D for small stereoscopic sets as well as larger mono lenses.

pgk
9-Dec-2018, 13:11
Indeed, but this may be less surprising if we conjecture that Grubb might actually have built bespoke lenses. Having looked at photographs of all those I can find which have been posted on the web, its pretty clear that the variation in design is immense. Given that Grubb built most telescopes to order, I personally strongly suspect that this way of operating probably also applied to photographic lenses. Perhaps few large lenses survive because few were ever built, due to both expense and the need to order them from Dublin at a time when London was probably considered to be a 'centre' for photographic equipment.Just my conjecture though.

Fionnbharr
22-Dec-2018, 03:36
Hi Stephen,
I have 2719. It is simply engraved "C Grubb Patent 2719".
If you'd like an image let me know.
Fionnbharr

Steven Tribe
22-Dec-2018, 12:02
Hi Stephen,
I have 2719. It is simply engraved "C Grubb Patent 2719".
If you'd like an image let me know.
Fionnbharr
pgk has made the last revised list so he can edit it - I would have to go back to earlier list. We already have 2719 in the list but without details.

pgk
22-Dec-2018, 12:30
Thanks Stephen. I have a big revision coming up - the V&A hold some more too (ex-RP collection), but information is scant so far.

Scott Sharp
8-Jan-2019, 09:16
I have a Howard Grubb Dublin Aplanatic Doublet number 5290. It has block lettering on the barrel with a slot for Waterhouse stops.

It has a 12-inch focal length comparing it to my known 11-inch Dallmeyer Rapid Rectilinear. If the Dallmeyer RR lens is f/8 then
this Grubb Aplanatic lens is slower, projecting a slightly darker image.

Reading the earlier posts I ran across this: "aplanatic doublet (which Grubb claimed was purloined by Dallmeyer re. the RR!) which appears to be very rare."

Does this mean the Aplanatic Doublet is similar to the Rapid Rectilinear with four elements in two groups? And are the two lens groups symmetrical?

Great thread, looking forward to any information.

Steven Tribe
9-Jan-2019, 08:16
The Lens VM talks about this double aplanatic - that is, two single aplanatic lenses mounted very much like the Ross Symmetrical and the Dallmeyer RR. I don't think there are any other double aplanatic lenses in the current list. I was beginning to think that there must have a misunderstanding about it's real existance! It is certainly a late production after manufacture was moved to the UK. INteresting to compare performance of these Ross, Grubb and Dallmeyer versions!

pgk
9-Jan-2019, 09:27
Actually there are other examples I believe, engraved either Patent Doublet or Aplanatic Doublet. I have 2215 which is engraved 'Grubb's Patent Doublet' and I suspect this to be two patent lenses effectively mounted in the same way as a Dallmeyer RR. Whilst Thomas Grubb did patent his doublet lens, later on was scathing about patents (as referenced in a letter quoted in a book on the Grub's history). It looks as though lenses similar to those covered by Thomas's patent had actually been produced by others before his patent - there were letters in the Photographic Journal to this effect. And Thomas complained in exactly the same way as those opposing his patent had, about Dallmeyer's! It looks as though the Grubb's continued to build lenses despite the Dallmeyer patent and engraved them with their own name and 'patent' too - I doubt that this was challenged.

Unfortunately the information about the Grubb's serial numbers and their dates is too scant to pin down what was actually produced when so far. I've been trying to figure out when Howard's name appeared on Grubb lenses but I suspect that it was well before the move away from Dublin (as some have Watson's name on as the retailer this would suggest 1883 onwards). However my guess is that Grubb photographic lenses effectively ceased production during the 1880/90s at the latest. As I have previously stated, I think that the Grubb's probably built photographic lenses to order and customer's specification which is problematic in that their designs vary substantially, their serial numbers aren't easy to tie down timewise and so far I have found a that there seems to be a gap between 3,500+ and 5,000 (Thomas and Howard's names engraved). Whether this is actual and represents any shift in production or anything is an open question. There is a lot of information to be found here: https://archive.rps.org although sifting through it is a bit clunky. Search on Grubb and many letters appear as do other interesting bits of information such as Thomas Grubb's design for a versatile camera (very messy by the look of it!).

FWIW I have so far found Howard's name on very few Grubb lenses - serial numbers suggesting only around 300 so far and 5290 is the latest I can find. The implication is that production had tailed off by the time that Howard was running things in his own name.

Willeica
10-Jan-2019, 04:24
Paul (PGK) and I have been in touch about various Grubb details. I'll try to throw in some details to provide context from a Dublin perspective. The advertisement above which carries the address 141 Leinster Road could not have appeared before 1864 when Thomas Grubb moved to that address. Around the same time, when the Great Melbourne Telescope was ordered the main part of the business moved from Canal Road to what is now known as Observatory Lane. I have not seen any evidence that photographic lenses were produced at Observatory Lane. Just after that Howard took over the business due to the failing health of Thomas. During the 1850s Thomas had been involved in disputes about lens designs and patents with various parties and Paul has sent me various documents from the RPS annals which document this. There is also some material which relates to this from a photographic society in Birmingham. Thomas Grubb made an address to the Royal Dublin Society (of which I am a member) in 1858 about his aplanatic lens design which I attach below. This a relatively brief piece which deals with the issues in broad terms. I have recently gone through the RDS archives and I cannot find any more than this.

I wonder where the details in the Lens Vademecum have come from? I suspect that a lot of the documents relating to lens types moved to St Albans (perhaps because of fear of a German invasion of Ireland) when the company went there in 1918. By that time it seems that the photographic lens business had long since disappeared and even the astronomical business had declined. The main business at that stage was periscopes for submarines and, perhaps, gun sights, but the ending of World War One caused a dilemma for the company until the alliance with Parsons led to a move to Newcastle. There is some late 20th century TV footage of a lens grinding machine from Grubb Parsons which had instructions addressed Rathmines from 1880s, presumably Observatory Lane. One might assume, therefore, that the other documentation eventually found its way to Newcastle. There is some Grubb documentation in Dunsink Observatory and in the Dublin Institute of Advance Studies. I might seek to see it some day, but I suspect that it relates to the astronomical work by the Grubbs with telescopes, coelostats (one of which was used to prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity) etc.

As for users of the Grubb lenses, there is a famous photo of College Green in Dublin taken from the Bank of Ireland building in the early 1850s which is assumed to have been taken by Grubb who as Chief Engineer to the Bank of Ireland at that stage. Carleton Watkins, whose photos of Yosemite in the 1860s led to Abraham Lincoln signing legislation to introduce the concept of national parks, is said to have used a Grubb C lens. Paul (PGK) may have evidence of other well known users.

I have Grubb 509 and 3631 in my collection. The former is from the mid 1850s and is clearly the type of lens described by Grubb at the RDS in 1858. 3631, which is smaller, seems to be the same design apart from the fact that it has no helicoid, but just a push and pull holder for washer stops. I had always assumed that it was from the early 1860s. I see some mention of 1870s for this, but somehow I think that the design would have been different at that stage. The later lenses with Howard Grubb's name on them seem to me to not be as heavily constructed as those from the time of Thomas, perhaps lending credence to the theory that some of them were manufactured elsewhere with the Grubb name being engraved on them. Howard did not seem to have the same interest in photography as his father and anything that I have found in the RDS relating to Howard and photography mainly relates to astronomical photography.

The 1858 address to the RDS is below (the uploader keeps telling me that I do not have permission to upload this document. I will try again in another post)

William

Willeica
10-Jan-2019, 04:26
Grubb 1858 address to RDS

186265186265

William

Steven Tribe
3-Apr-2019, 01:50
There are two new aplanatics around. In the later smart pull-out style. I am no longer the "keeper of the list"! Paul?

3447 size C
2591 size D

pgk
3-Apr-2019, 02:54
Yes, I'd noted these two thanks Steven. The list needs updating and I'll get around to it at some point. I am now convinced that Grubb (and probably Wray in their first decade or so, even though much later into the photographic lens trade) produced lenses almost as one offs. There are very few identical Grubbs and early Wrays show substantial variation. Having read Conrad Beck's book (~1900) on lens making I do wonder just how small scale some production actually was?

Willeica
4-Apr-2019, 01:21
I have prepared an updated version of my Grubb and Parsons article, using Grubb lenses owned by myself and Paul (pgk). It will appear in the magazine of the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB), Photographica World. I will post something here when the article is published.

William

pgk
9-May-2019, 06:39
Substantial Revision of known surviving Grubb Lenses (won't paste in more effectively - sorry):

Serial Number Letter Designation Primary Engraving Additional Engraving Mount Additional Information
160 None Grubb Dublin Patent Rack & Pinion/Portable
245 Focusing??? One off mount?
264 None Grubb Patent No. 264 Helicoid Focusing
359 - - - Rack & Pinion
483 None Grubb Dublin Patent - 18”
509 None Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 509 micro engraved on rear element Helicoid Focusing Helicoid Aplanat
52? - Grubb Patent? - Aplanatic Meniscus (single) 6in?
546 - - - Helicoid Focusing Patent Helicoid Aplanatic with pivoting cap
552 Grubb Patent Sold by Morley. 70 Upper St. N 4154 Morley was at 70 Upper St. from 1857
588 Grubb Patent Lens Vade Mecum – Helicoid Focus Mount
623 Grubb Patent Portable On a sliding box camera
647 ??? 90mm = D? Grubb Patent Aplanatic - sciencemuseum.org.uk - made in 1857 - 90mm diam x 70mm high 0.65Kg pers corr.
696 C Grubb Patent Portable Aplanatic landscape lens focal length approx 45cm. D ~95mm (uncollapsed) d ~75mm with flange (~1858?)
756 A Grubb Patent Helicoid Focusing In helicoid focussing mount
790 None Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion Probably a Petzval lens
798 Rack & Pinion 5” x 7” Camera
800 Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion Probably a Petzval lens
815 Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion(?) Described as Patent Helicoid Aplanatic??? Perhaps a Petzval Projection Lens?
840 Grubb Dublin Probably a Petzval lens
870 Described (LFP) as a Landscape Lens
879 A Grubb Patent Portable With integral hinged cap? Cut down 'hood'?
986 A2 Petzval per LFP – engraving said to have a different style
993 A2 Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion Probably a Petzval lens
1045 Portable
1066 A3 Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion Petzval
1449 A2 Described (LFP) as a Small Petzval Lens
1531 Portable
1533 Grubb Patent On Sands Hunter Camera
1539 C Grubb Patent Portable Landscape ~43cm
1554 C Grubb Patent Stereo??? Only brass remaining
1685 Grubb Patent Portable
1686 A No glass
1706 Grubb Patent Helicoid Focusing
1829 A3 Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion(?) Probably a Petzval lens
1859
1892 Christies – Described as incomplete
1918 A0 Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 1918 micro engraved on rear element Portable
2071 A3 Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion Petzval(?)
2135 D Grubb Patent Portable
2215 B (?) Grubb Patent Doublet Grubb Patent 2215 micro engraved on rear element None Probably a Stereo Lens – see 2216 & 2217
2216 B Grubb Patent Doublet None Stereo Lens (with 2217)
2217 B Grubb Patent Doublet None Stereo Lens (with 2216)
2227 Grubb Patent Doublet Lens Vade Mecum
2241 A Grubb Patent Portable
2338 B2? Rack & Pinion Petzval (?)
2409 D Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 2409 micro engraved on rear element None Stereo Lens (originally with 2410)
2410 D Grubb Patent None Stereo Lens (originally with 2409)
2451
2591 D Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 2591 micro engraved on rear element Portable
2603 Grubb Patent 1862 per Hasbroeck 8” f/8
2627 B or E ??? Grubb Patent Portable Lens Vade Mecum – probably a Stereo Lens ('e'?)
2658 C Grubb Patent Portable http://cameraheritagemuseum.com/images/Agfa%20to%20Grubb%203/pages/grubblens_jpg.htm
2676 A3 Grubb Dublin Rack & Pinion Missing a lens element. Probably a Petzval lens
2692 B1 Grubb Dublin Probably a (projection – used as anyway) Petzval
2719 C Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 2719 micro engraved on rear element Portable
2729 B (or E???) Grubb Patent Portable Lens Vade Mecum – 74mm flange suggests 2.5” element which would be a B
2795 C
2854 B Grubb Patent Portable
2885 C Grubb Patent Portable
2890 B
2914 D Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 2914 micro engraved on rear element Stereo??? See 2915
2915 D Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 2914 micro engraved on rear element (see 2914) Stereo??? Rear element engraved with previous lens's serial number! Flange thread 1.9” diam. Non-extending mount with front loading Waterhouse stop. Stereo. Same construction as 2409
3147 A0 Grubb Patent Portable? Missing extending aperture mechanism?
3197 Grubb Patent
3198 Grubb Patent
3318 D Grubb Patent Portable
3447 C Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 3447 micro engraved on rear element Portable
3465 Grubb Patent Stereo??? Lens Vade Mecum ??? 1862 ??? Doublet ??? “achromatic periscopic”??? Marked Patent
3510 D Grubb Patent Portable
3631 Ax Grubb Patent Grubb Patent 36?? micro engraved on rear element Portable Said to be 1864? Evidence???
5013 - Grubb's Aplanatic ? x 6 ½ Sole Agents Watson & Sons 313 High Holborn London Watson & Sons suggests post 1883
5046 - Howard Grubb Dublin Aplanatic Doublet London Agents Watson & Son 313 High Holborn London Watson & Sons suggests post 1883
5148 Grubb Patent Doublet Lens Vade Mecum
5196 - Grubbs Aplanatic 5 x 4 Sole Agents Watson & Son 313 High Holborn London Watson & Sons suggests post 1883. Mount is 'crude' pos. by Watson?
5204 Grubb Patent Doublet Lens Vade Mecum
5218
5290 - Howard Grubb Dublin Aplanatic Doublet
5308 - Howard Grubb Dublin Aplanatic 10 x 8 Rotating Stops
5316 B1 Grubb Dublin Probably a (projection – used as anyway) Petzval
5321 B1 Grubb Dublin Probably a (projection – used as anyway) Petzval






??? A Science Museum – fitted to an 1862 (?) Pantascopic camera by Johnson & Harrison
??? Sliding box plate wet camera. For 9.25 inch square plates. No focusing screen or darkslides. Grubb's patent lens F=approx.7 inch f/3.5. Brass mount with rack and pinion focus and slot for Waterhouse stops. With one Waterhouse stop. RPS cat Part 4 Section 29 No 5/16. 13196 on the lens.

Willeica
9-May-2019, 08:45
Thanks Paul for all the work involved in this. I am the proud 'new owner' of D lens No 2591 (joining 509 and 3631 in my collection - see attached photo) and which came marked with f stop 14.4 plus 3 washer stops marked f 18, 24 and 72. As you have already pointed out, these markings would date from a later period than the 1860s when the lens was manufactured as the f stop system had not been developed by then. There seems to be a pattern emerging from these studies pointing to most of the production being concentrated in the 10 year period from the mid 1850s to the mid 1860s when the Grubbs (Thomas and son Howard) seem to have decided to concentrate more on telescopes. My article on Grubb for the Photographica World magazine of the PCCGB should appear in the not too distant future. I am meeting the editor of the magazine at Photographica Camera Fair in London on 19th May and I believe that based on Paul's researches (with relatively tiny inputs from myself) there may be more than enough for another article before long. I am also hoping to photograph the Grubb workshops, homes and graves using my smallest Grubb lens (an A x) on a modern digital camera. I live only a few miles away from where the lens was manufactured over 150 years ago.

William

191145

Chauncey Walden
9-May-2019, 10:53
I just starting reading this thread and was interested to see in the ad posted in #38 the comments from Samuel Bourne. I have several images by Bourne and all I can say is that if any of them were taken with a Grubb lens that it was one heck of a nice lens!

Steven Tribe
9-May-2019, 12:25
Post #38 is an add which starts by saying that every Aplanatic lens has written on the concave surface "Grubb Patent xxxx".

Lens with brass engraving 2215 - a simplified stereo aplanatic - actually has the aplanatic lens cell from it's stereo twin 2214!

pgk
9-May-2019, 12:35
2915 has element 2914 installed! I've read the advert several times without twigging that it said that each lens was numbered on the glass!!! The list will be updated if I can get serial numbers out of several museums - some lenses are in long term storage unfortunately.

Willeica
10-May-2019, 00:57
All 3 of my Grubb lenses have the engraving and so far I can confirm that 509 has that number engraved along with 'Grubb Patent'. I need a stronger loupe to confirm the other two, but they both have an engraving; very faint on 2591. Will confirm details here when I have them.

As well as Bourne and Thomas Grubb himself, there are photos by Carleton Watkins (Yosemite) and Francis Bedford (Middle East Tour by Prince of Wales) where a Grubb lens was used for some of the photographs taken.

William

pgk
10-May-2019, 01:26
A Print was sold at Christies which was described as :

Francis Bedford - 'Water Gate Raglan Castle', 1850s
Albumen print, 91⁄2 x 111⁄2 in., mounted on card, signed, titled and inscribed This specimen for Ldy Rosses kind acceptance. lens 15 inches, focus stop 5/8 inch - and Mr. Grubb's 3 inch lens. medium stop. in pencil on mount.

Which I suppose goes to prove that well known photographers have always tried to use the best equipment available and have always been interested in the equipment used, although in this case I suspect that the Irish connections were also of interest, hence the inscription. The lens referred to would have been a Grubb 'C' Aplanatic (15" focal length & 3" diameter.).

Willeica
10-May-2019, 02:14
Lady Rosse was presumably Mary Rosse the wife of William Parsons the Earl of Rosse and famous astronomer who was helped by Thomas Grubb in respect of the castings for his giant telescope at Birr. Mary was an accomplished photographer and was also the mother of Sir Charles Parsons, the inventor of the Steam Turbine and also the man who saved the Grubb firm when it ran out of steam (pardon the pun) in the 1920s. The result was the firm Sir Howard Grubb, Parsons and Co Ltd which continued to manufacture telescopes and other optical devices until 1985.

William

Steven Tribe
10-May-2019, 05:21
I have a teeny weeny problem with 552!
Morley apparently engraved his name/address and reference number on both new and secondhand items sold from his establishment. This is proved because lenses exist which have the usual Morley data, but two Morley "serial numbers". The second one with quite a lot higher number. This could mean that Morley sold the lens from new, and then secondhand later to a new owner. Or sold it twice second-hand. So the Morley address doesn't always show the date of production!

pgk
10-May-2019, 06:08
I have a teeny weeny problem with 552! Morley apparently engraved his name/address and reference number on both new and secondhand items sold from his establishment......So the Morley address doesn't always show the date of production!

Interesting because I suspect that J Solomon was Grubb's first representative (the 1859 advertisement refers to an earlier (April 9, No 82 of the Photographic Journal which I cannot find - most 'bound copies have had their adverts removed) advert by J Solomon in London) so this makes sense. That said, The Patent for the Aplanatic was filed on 8/10/57 and sealed on 6/4/58 so I'd be dubious of any lens engraved patent being made prior to October '57. The Science Museum hold 647 which they say was from 1857. I'm writing stuff up but my best guess is that most of the 'early' lenses were built between 1857 and 1865 because in 1865 Thomas Grubb took on the manufacture of the Great Melbourene Telescope (worth searching the web for - it was damaged in a severe bush fire and is, I think, being restored but with difficulty due to its exacting construction) which was an enormous undertaking and potentially meant that any lenses sold after this date were from stock.

That said, there are some fascinating vagaries which William and I are discussing.

Steven Tribe
14-May-2019, 00:48
The listed large aplanatic (15.5") with sn 160, reached £840. This must be a record for a aplanatic and rivals prices for early French pill box lenses and Taylor RV(P)s.

It is easy understand that Grubb decided to use his entrepreneur skills in other areas than ordinary photographic optics. There was plenty of price competition and most companies were happy to just survive until the mass market of the 1890's and beyond!

Have there been any "modern" analyses of the optical properties of the Aplanatic design compared with the Rapid Rectilinear and the Ross rapid symmetrical?

pgk
14-May-2019, 02:44
Considering it wasn't actually an Aplanatic it was a high price .....

Grubb's Great Melbourne Telescope probably shifted the business's emphasis significantly. Also competing with London makers from Dublin was probably not that easy.

I've tried the Doublet and intend to do a lot more testing idc. I will also have a chat with a friend who is a lens designer and see if there is anything we can sort out. One problem is aging and heavy use of Grubb lenses. Many seem to have had a long service life and it often shows. I'd really like to have mine refurbished but finding a company to realign using Balsam is proving tricky though I may have found one at last.

Amedeus
14-May-2019, 12:15
I followed this one closely and it was a desirable object for me, but not at this rate. Looked very similar to the two Ross landscape lenses I have from a construction perspective and even my Dallmeyer looks very similar but that shouldn't be a surprise based on the connections.


The listed large aplanatic (15.5") with sn 160, reached £840. This must be a record for a aplanatic and rivals prices for early French pill box lenses and Taylor RV(P)s.

It is easy understand that Grubb decided to use his entrepreneur skills in other areas than ordinary photographic optics. There was plenty of price competition and most companies were happy to just survive until the mass market of the 1890's and beyond!

Have there been any "modern" analyses of the optical properties of the Aplanatic design compared with the Rapid Rectilinear and the Ross rapid symmetrical?

Willeica
15-May-2019, 01:18
No 264 sold at auction for €1,000, probably at least €1200 with commission. That must be the record for a Grubb Aplanatic. I obtained 509, which is very similar to 264, for much less than this. As Paul says, No 160 does not appear to have been wholly original.

William

peter brooks
23-Jun-2019, 09:18
I've just acquired a Grubb lens - it is engraved:

B3
Grubb
Dublin
2680

It is missing the rack and pinion, and lenshood, and the flange and sliding sleeve have been soldered (with a huge amount of solder) to a large brass plate.

Slot for waterhouse stops, and it looks as though there was a guide or partial blanking piece mounted internally for these - there is a bolt hole on the opposite side of the lens to the slot.

It is fairly large - 6.25" (159mm) tall, 3.75" (95mm) in diameter, the glass being 3" (76mm) across - and quite heavy, weighing in at 3.6lbs (1.65kg). It might just go on a Sinar board.

[After fabphoto73's post below]

Eek! It appears to be missing one of the rear elements - it's going back...

fabphoto73
23-Jun-2019, 11:06
I have a B2 petzval No.1560. Focal length is 9" (back focus is 7"). It's pretty fast F3 approx. I looked at a B3 petzval a while back, I almost bought it but then noticed the focal length was around 6 1/2 inch which didn't sound right considering the diameter of the glass being 3", so opened it up and it was missing one of the rear elements. Hope it's not the same one but you say there are two elements in your rear group? Can't remember where but I read after that the B3 should be around 12" focal length.

peter brooks
23-Jun-2019, 11:48
Hmm. Looking again this could be the same lens that you looked at. Have sent you a PM.

pgk
24-Jun-2019, 05:04
I've just acquired a Grubb lens - it is engraved:

B3
Grubb
Dublin
2680

This is the only 'B3' lens I've come across and 'B3' is not shown in the adverts found to date. Oddly enough a few of Grubb's portrait lenses seem to have suffered loss of a rear element including another with a serial number close to this one.

Steven Tribe
7-Oct-2019, 02:34
Serial number 5277 Howard Grubb fullplate aplanatic doublet to be added to post #52!

Just confirms that Howard Grubb's UK relancing was not a great succes as all found serial numbers are very close to each other.

Willeica
8-Oct-2019, 01:35
Two more to add. 1503 which is an A3 Petzval and is used by its owner (from Rathmines Dublin, near where the Grubbs had their telescope factory) to do lovely wet plate portraits on a Calumet C-1. Also 5045 a 'Howard Grubb/Watson ' Aplanatic Doublet. This may have been part of a pair with 5046. I suspect that these later lenses may have been part of an early exercise in 'badge engineering', but I am not sure in which direction this went. Contemporary Grubb catalogues do not show any camera lenses at all. If anyone has Watson catalogues from the 1880s/1890s it would be useful to see if any of the 'Howard Grubb' lenses appear. The records of the Royal Dublin Society, where I am a member, show some lenses 'by Grubb' for astronomical photography produced around this time. This was a subject in which Howard had a great interest, but it is not clear if these lenses were all produced by Grubb. If I recall correctly, there is a record of at least one lens having been bought in from another manufacturer for astronomical photography. Paul Kay (pgk) told me that 1503 and 5045 brought the number of known extant Grubb lenses to 101 and, so, with 5277, that would make 102. We still have a long way to go.

The existence of 5045 came to my attention following the publication of the latest version of my article on Grubb and Parsons in the magazine of the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB). This latest version features lenses owned by pgk as well as some of my own lenses. I also included a photo of Yosemite taken by Carleton Watkins in the 1860s. He was known to have used a Grubb C lens for his landscapes.

William

pgk
8-Oct-2019, 04:01
Serial number 5277 Howard Grubb fullplate aplanatic doublet to be added to post #52!

Just confirms that Howard Grubb's UK relancing was not a great succes as all found serial numbers are very close to each other.

It may well be that Howard was simply shifting earlier stock ......

Willeica
9-Oct-2019, 11:28
Could be true, Paul, but the later lenses look quite different to the early ones, so if Howard was shifting old stock it was probably the lens elements rather than completed lenses.

William

Willeica
12-Dec-2019, 13:30
My 4th Grubb lens. No 482 and probably a C Aplanatic. Unlike my other Grubb lenses, this one appears to be stamped on the barrel rather than engraved, but it does have Dublin on it. It does seem to be genuine as it has the usual Grubb micro engraving of 'Grubb Patent ' followed by the matching serial number. Paul (pgk) suggests that this may have been a working prototype which was not originally for sale. He also suggests 1858 or thereabouts as the date for the lens. We have been discussing this by email and I am leaning towards his views.

198402
198403

William

Steven Tribe
16-Dec-2019, 04:13
I think this may be the source of the debate Grubb/Dallmeyer patents. It is about the single aplanatic lens versus the modified landscape lens of Dallmeyer. I seem to remember another discussion about the Grubb double aplanatic lens vs. the Dallmeyer RR patent?

This is from a collection of Traill Taylor’s articles published in 1892.

Willeica
17-Dec-2019, 05:02
Thanks Steven. This more or less reflects what Rudolf Kingslake said in his later book ' A History of the Photographic Lens'. What would really assist with these issues would be some sight of the Grubb factory records. I am still looking here in Dublin where the lenses were made and Paul (pgk) has turned up a lot of material from the UK. Paul has done a list with over 100 Grubb lenses, known to exist today, and a pattern of sorts has emerged from that. The micro engraving of serial numbers on the rim of the front glass is fascinating. All four of my lenses, being Patent Aplanats, have this, albeit it is very hard to read. Thomas Grubb did this to avoid fakes being made, but this did not avoid his design being incorporated into other 'improved' designs.

Living in Dublin a few miles away from where the lenses were made, I have an obvious reason to be interested in the lenses. The search goes on.

William

pgk
17-Dec-2019, 06:26
And another little bit of information which might be of interest. Classified advertisements from 1888 for used Grubb Lenses - they were still expensive lenses and in the case of the 'C' Patent Aplanatic - £5 - it had probably been unavailable for something between 15 and 20 years. The other two appear to be Petzvals and again were probably uncommon lenses by 1888 and costly used.
198526198527

peter brooks
23-Dec-2019, 10:40
Another B3 - number 2697 - turned up on UK ebay.

This was missing the front element but had both the rear elements (2680 was missing one of the rear elements and has a stuck front element). I contacted the owner of 2680, and he was successful in winning 2697.

Today a marriage was made - the rear elements of 2697 fit into 2680, albeit slightly more tightly. So there is now a complete B3 out there. For the record 2697 also contains the two internal plates (either side of where the waterhouse stop would sit) that are missing from 2680.

198715

Ooh, I do like a happy ending :)

pgk
23-Dec-2019, 12:02
Excellent. I wondered if someone with another 'half' B3 would buy this. The only odd thing about the B3 Grubb Petzval is that it isn't listed in the contemporary advertisements I've tracked down so far. Looking at the B1, B2 and C1 and C2 Grubb Petzval specifications it should have around 3" diameter front and back lenses, be around 9" 'back focus' and could just about cover whole plate perhaps/maybe. So if you can post the actual figures they would be interesting to compare to the others.

fabphoto73
23-Dec-2019, 15:36
Here is an advert for Grubb that lists the B3, from a Richard W. Thomas Catalogue c1875
198726

pgk
23-Dec-2019, 16:12
Thanks, that's a really useful advert. Can you confirm the date, as I'm still researching Grubb lens dates, please?

fabphoto73
23-Dec-2019, 16:59
Yes 1875 according to the source (google books). Here's an even earlier one from Joseph Solomon Catalogue 1861.
198727
198728

Willeica
23-Dec-2019, 17:24
Paul (pgk) and I have an advertisement for Grubb lenses which carries similar references to Mr Bedford etc. This also carries the address of his home 141 Leinster Road, Rathmines, Dublin. Thomas Grubb moved into that house in 1863 or 1864, according to Dublin Street Directories. That would be the earliest time at which the advertisement could have been produced. It does not contain a reference to B3 lenses, which must have come later. I brought Paul to see that house and other Grubb properties when he was in Dublin last March. We did not go inside as it has long since ceased to be owned by the Grubb family and it is now let out in bedsits.

William

pgk
24-Dec-2019, 02:07
Thanks, very useful. The Advertisement which I am really keen to see is a Solomon one in the "Photographic Journal" for 'April 9th (No. 82)' which is referred to in a later advert dated 15-10-1859 as it contains prices, so I'm assuming it was from the year 1859 - which looks correct from copies of the magazine that I have located. The problem I have is that all the copies I have found have been bound, and with the adverts removed. A Solomon advert dated 1870 does show Petzvals, but omits the B3.

peter brooks
24-Dec-2019, 02:15
Excellent. I wondered if someone with another 'half' B3 would buy this. The only odd thing about the B3 Grubb Petzval is that it isn't listed in the contemporary advertisements I've tracked down so far. Looking at the B1, B2 and C1 and C2 Grubb Petzval specifications it should have around 3" diameter front and back lenses, be around 9" 'back focus' and could just about cover whole plate perhaps/maybe. So if you can post the actual figures they would be interesting to compare to the others.

2680 convalesced with me for a few months but is now back with it's owner. Great advertisements, the c.1875 one answers your queries I think. Interesting that the B3 is numbered 4a, which would imply that it has been slotted in as an afterthought to an original plan.

A quick projection of the complete B3 against some mount board suggested that it would cover full plate.

pgk
24-Dec-2019, 03:48
All makes good sense. What really perplexes me are the production dates of Grubb lenses. And more and later adverts are not helping!

Willeica
24-Dec-2019, 03:49
Thanks, very useful. The Advertisement which I am really keen to see is a Solomon one in the "Photographic Journal" for 'April 9th (No. 82)' which is referred to in a later advert dated 15-10-1859 as it contains prices, so I'm assuming it was from the year 1859 - which looks correct from copies of the magazine that I have located. The problem I have is that all the copies I have found have been bound, and with the adverts removed. A Solomon advert dated 1870 does show Petzvals, but omits the B3.

I would be interested to see what any advertisement from 1859 says about C lenses. I have both 482 and 509, Aplanatics from the 1850s, both about C size. The former is Grubb portable mount, whereas the latter is helicoid. I would be interested to see if the lenses were sold in one type only or in both versions.

William

pgk
1-Jan-2020, 14:48
Interestingly the results from a rather 'tired' early (1860~65) Grubb Patent Doublet (2 x Aplanatic lenses around a central stop) are surprisingly good today. Accepting that this is from an A7II so its just the central area of the image, it has plenty of detail and only flare and an associated(?) rather odd colours palette which differentiates the results from a modern lens. Distortion and chroma are low.
198919

Willeica
24-Feb-2020, 16:12
The latest addition to my collection, 5045 Howard Grubb/Watson Aplanatic Doublet from the 1880s, arrived today. It is very similar to 5046 which was mentioned already in this thread. It came with a flange and a Waterhouse stop.

201089

William

Willeica
25-Feb-2020, 03:07
My other 4 Grubb lenses, all Aplanatics from the 1850s and 1860s. From left to right, they are C 482, prob C 509 helicoid, D 2591 and Ax 3631.

201095

William

Steven Tribe
14-Mar-2020, 03:05
2 more surfaced.

770 and 2175 . Both aplanatics - can be found in Germany - enough said! Both a bit out of the ordinary.

Willeica
14-Mar-2020, 03:08
A couple of unusual Grubb lenses at auction.

770 looks like an Aplanatic, but is said to be achromatic portrait f5.5, obviously added much later as f stops, as we know them, did not exist in the 1850s/60s.

2175 is said to be an Aplanatic, but has an unusual conical structure and comes with two washer stops. No obvious engraving.

William

pgk
14-Mar-2020, 13:16
Both look modified to me. It would be essential to check that both have the serial number micro-engraved on the lens glass in order to determine just how unoriginal either actually is.

Edit. Having looked carefully at the photos my guess is that 770 was modified well after it was manufactured because the roughly engraved 'Portrait f 5.5' suggests the engraver was used to f numbers which is suggests this engraving was made in 1870s or very probably later. The aperture stops appear to be large and fitted below the position of the original but I'm not sure of the effect of doing this - softening the image perhaps?. 2175 looks like an 'A' series stereo lens (and its physical size/focal length is close to those ascribed in adverts to the 'A' Stereo Grubb too) in an odd and decidedly unoriginal mount. I just wonder if at some point it was modified and repurposed with other old lens parts so that it could be used in an enlarger? If so its dark brown colour may be as a result of exposure to darkroom chemical fumes?

Willeica
15-Mar-2020, 07:02
I agree with Paul's (pgk) assessment of the 770 and 2175 lenses. Paul has better eyesight than I have and there is, indeed, some engraving on 770. It has a very dark colour like my 482, which I showed earlier and which might have been the result of having spent a lot of time in the workshop or lab. I suspect that 482 might have been used by the Grubbs in their workshop, hence the stamping rather than the engraving. There have been a few Grubb lenses appearing recently which have had mount or barrel alterations. As I know from my own experiments, the optical quality of the lenses is superb and, therefore, the existence of altered mounts and barrels and other features for different cameras and work types is hardly surprising.

William

Willeica
14-Jul-2020, 15:22
I have now acquired Grubb Aplanatic C lens 4039.

205850

This means I now have the earliest and the latest, currently known, Aplanatic C lenses - 482 (unmarked but the same size lens) and 4039. There are, perhaps, earlier and later lenses out there. The lens from 482 screws into the body of 4039, but the reverse does not apply. The flange from 4039 does not fit on 482, but the washer stop, made for me by pgk, fits on both lenses, albeit it is slightly loose on 482. The body of 482, which is probably pre-main production, is slightly taller than that of 4039. I will publish a full 'class photo' of my 5 Grubb Aplanatics when I get one done.

William

pgk
16-Jul-2020, 03:57
Yes. Although not marked as such (it probably pre-dated the code letters) it looks very much like it was probably what would later be coded as a B2 Petzval by Grubb - quite a popular lens I think.

Andrew Plume
16-Jul-2020, 05:53
I have now acquired Grubb Aplanatic C lens 4039.

205850

This means I now have the earliest and the latest, currently known, Aplanatic C lenses - 482 (unmarked but the same size lens) and 4039. There are, perhaps, earlier and later lenses out there. The lens from 482 screws into the body of 4039, but the reverse does not apply. The flange from 4039 does not fit on 482, but the washer stop, made for me by pgk, fits on both lenses, albeit it is slightly loose on 482. The body of 482, which is probably pre-main production, is slightly taller than that of 4039. I will publish a full 'class photo' of my 5 Grubb Aplanatics when I get one done.

William

Very nice indeed William, thx for showing us

regards

Andrew

Willeica
16-Nov-2020, 10:43
Here is my latest Grubb item a C Type Aplanatic No 582 with plain engraving or stamping. It does have the engraved 'Grubb Patent No 582' as proof of authenticity on the rim of the glass (poor photo attached). Some data about f stop calculation is written inside inside the top cap, but this would have been added much later. A class photo of my Grubb lens collection is also shown below.

209569209570209575

William

Ron (Netherlands)
16-Nov-2020, 11:40
A class photo of my Grubb lens collection is also shown below.

William

Great collection, ....how big are these Grubb landscape lenses (diameter lens for instance)? - (I have some, not from Grubb, but most of mine are quite tiny - will soon put a picture on flickr)

pgk
16-Nov-2020, 12:52
Grubb 'C' Patent Lenses has a 3" diameter glass. 'A' was 2" and they went up to 'G' (6"). There were smaller lenses for stereo use, Doublets (see below) and Petzvals. Later Grubb's were by Howard, Thomas's son and varied with many being Doublets. Still working on a history of Grubb lenses but its looking as though Thomas Grubb was the first maker to produce the Doublets which would become better known as Rapid Rectilinear lenses, in 1864 ..... tbc

Steven Tribe
16-Nov-2020, 13:53
........but its looking as though Thomas Grubb was the first maker to produce the Doublets which would become better known as Rapid Rectilinear lenses, in 1864 ..... tbc

This has already been noted on the literature - mostly in the 19th Century - in Trail Taylor’s collected articles. Grubb is reported as being annoyed, but didn’t get involved in the Steinheil/Dallmeyer debate, as far as I know.

Ron (Netherlands)
16-Nov-2020, 14:31
Grubb 'C' Patent Lenses has a 3" diameter glass. 'A' was 2" and they went up to 'G' (6"). There were smaller lenses for stereo use, Doublets (see below) and Petzvals. Later Grubb's were by Howard, Thomas's son and varied with many being Doublets. Still working on a history of Grubb lenses but its looking as though Thomas Grubb was the first maker to produce the Doublets which would become better known as Rapid Rectilinear lenses, in 1864 ..... tbc

Thanks!

Willeica
16-Nov-2020, 17:10
Great collection, ....how big are these Grubb landscape lenses (diameter lens for instance)? - (I have some, not from Grubb, but most of mine are quite tiny - will soon put a picture on flickr)

This collection as presented is slightly less than two feet across, maybe 21 or 22 inches.

William

Willeica
16-Nov-2020, 17:25
Grubb 'C' Patent Lenses has a 3" diameter glass. 'A' was 2" and they went up to 'G' (6"). There were smaller lenses for stereo use, Doublets (see below) and Petzvals. Later Grubb's were by Howard, Thomas's son and varied with many being Doublets. Still working on a history of Grubb lenses but its looking as though Thomas Grubb was the first maker to produce the Doublets which would become better known as Rapid Rectilinear lenses, in 1864 ..... tbc

Thanks Paul

My collection is as follows, Front Row from left to right 482 C Aplanatic, 582 C Aplanatic, 3631 Ax Aplanatic. Back Row from left to right 509 Aplanatic (slightly smaller than C) with helicoid, 2591 D Aplanatic, 4039 C Aplanatic and 5045 Aplanatic Doublet. Some of the washer stops I have received with the lenses are shown at the front. I also have an original Waterhouse stop for the Doublet.

I have taken excellent photographs using the small Ax with a bellows to focus in front of a digital camera. I have some old wooden cameras which I may eventually use to shoot 4 x5 sheet film using these lenses when I can get the cameras adapted. Covid is not helping that project.

William

pgk
17-Nov-2020, 02:19
This has already been noted on the literature - mostly in the 19th Century - in Trail Taylor’s collected articles. Grubb is reported as being annoyed, but didn’t get involved in the Steinheil/Dallmeyer debate, as far as I know.

By this time Thomas Grubb was heavily involved in building the "Great Melbourne Telescope" and would have been very busy with what was a huge and highly prestigious (and probably lucrative ) project when Dallmeyer's patent was granted. His agent Solomon did detail the fact that the RR had already been made and said so in the press but it appears that Grubb simply never pursued the matter and Dallmeyer was credited (wrongly) by many with the invention of the Rapid Rectilinear from then on. Kingslake's book perpetuated the myth because Kigslake must not have had access to original copies of the photographic press, many of which are available online today. I have tracked down the existence of 5 copies of Grubb's original Doublet, one of which I own. I also have details of the day on which it was made (25-06-1865). However the first Doublet was made by Thomas Grubb on 09-09-1864 so it was in production well before Dallmeyer's patent.

Ron (Netherlands)
17-Nov-2020, 02:55
By this time Thomas Grubb was heavily involved in building the "Great Melbourne Telescope" and would have been very busy with what was a huge and highly prestigious (and probably lucrative ) project when Dallmeyer's patent was granted. His agent Solomon did detail the fact that the RR had already been made and said so in the press but it appears that Grubb simply never pursued the matter and Dallmeyer was credited (wrongly) by many with the invention of the Rapid Rectilinear from then on. Kingslake's book perpetuated the myth because Kigslake must not have had access to original copies of the photographic press, many of which are available online today. I have tracked down the existence of 5 copies of Grubb's original Doublet, one of which I own. I also have details of the day on which it was made (25-06-1865). However the first Doublet was made by Thomas Grubb on 09-09-1864 so it was in production well before Dallmeyer's patent.

Great info Paul, any photo's of your collection?

pgk
17-Nov-2020, 07:38
For some reason I cannot upload images at the moment! Will try later.

Willeica
24-Nov-2020, 13:28
209882

This is an example of an engraving on Grubb Patent 2215 Patent Doublet from pgk's collection. He was unable to upload it himself. It is also shown here in a piece about my collection and engravings on the British Photographic History website.

https://britishphotohistory.ning.com/profiles/blogs/signing-19th-century-lenses-a-common-practice

The same question is asked here about whether there is evidence of such 'lens signing' by other manufacturers. There is a reference here to the signing of Darlot lenses with 'Darlot Paris 10'.

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_L83.html

Comments are welcome.

William

Ron (Netherlands)
7-Jun-2021, 14:32
This one was sold today and seems to have reached a new high level of pricing (for a Grubb in what seems not so well - altered - condition although it can be considered an early one):

<edit> taken away the dead link to the auction site: its serial is 1194 which was present in the now dead link.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1BoAAOSwq-lgtPcy/s-l1600.jpg

<edit> Later in july/aug 2021 is was again on offer on PHOTRIO by the one who had bought it on Ebay

eunified61
2-Aug-2021, 04:33
New to site....looks like I bought fabfoto73's B2 No1560 lovely lens fast and shallow probably could take it down a stop if anyone has a waterhouse stop?????

pgk
4-Aug-2021, 03:57
With such lenses its probably going to be a matter of making your own. I do so from either thin black plastic or card and its a relatively easy thing to do. Alternatively pm me you email address and I will pass it on to a friend in Dublin who might be able to give you a contact who can make such stops.

abruzzi
4-Aug-2021, 09:01
I don't know if this will help, but I stumbled across this site last night:

http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Home.html

He sells a simple meniscus lens in a PVC tube, and provides a bunch of waterhouse stops for them. He doesn't list the stops for sale separately, but if you contact him, he may have something that works for you, provided he can ship internationally.

Ron (Netherlands)
4-Aug-2021, 12:44
I don't know if this will help, but I stumbled across this site last night:

http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Home.html

He sells a simple meniscus lens in a PVC tube, and provides a bunch of waterhouse stops for them. He doesn't list the stops for sale separately, but if you contact him, he may have something that works for you, provided he can ship internationally.

Reinhold is a fellow member

abruzzi
4-Aug-2021, 13:34
Reinhold is a fellow member

Cool, I didn't know that. I've been working on 3D modeling a piece to front mount my packard shutter using Cokin P adapter rings (and modeling a few Cokin P adapter rings for unthreaded lenses) when I stumbled across his site where he adapts packard shutters to Cokin P. So it looks like he had the same idea, which is cool. I'll probably keep working on my model just because, but its good to know that it isn't a crazy idea.

Mark Sawyer
4-Aug-2021, 14:09
The single-element macro auxiliary lenses for 35mm cameras are meniscus/Wollaston lenses. If you get them in 58mm, they screw right into the back of a Compur #3 or Copal #3 shutter. If you've already got another lens with that size shutter, you have a working modern shutter and adjustable aperture already mounted on a board that fits your camera. And you can buy a set of 3 or 4 different focal lengths for well under $20.

Willeica
5-Aug-2021, 00:23
New to site....looks like I bought fabfoto73's B2 No1560 lovely lens fast and shallow probably could take it down a stop if anyone has a waterhouse stop?????

Is 1560 a Petzval and does it have a Waterhouse stop slot? The only Grubb lens that I have with a Waterhouse stop slot and an actual original stop is an Aplanatic Doublet from the 1880s. 1560 is much earlier, but it could have a slot. I have original washer stops for a number of my Grubb Aplanatics, but they are all bespoke sizes made to fit the 'pill box' on top. One of my sets has f stop numbers marked in pencil, but those markings were obviously done much later. It also has the native aperture of the lens written inside.

I believe that 3 D modelling using digital methods might be the best way for you to go.

William

pgk
5-Aug-2021, 00:55
The B2 is a Petzval. I've made a plastic Waterhouse stop for mine and will dig it out and photograph it when I have time plus I'll add the specifications too.

Willeica
6-Aug-2021, 00:56
The B2 is a Petzval. I've made a plastic Waterhouse stop for mine and will dig it out and photograph it when I have time plus I'll add the specifications too.

That is, of course, correct, Paul. The point I was trying to make is that Grubb lenses were not in my experience, I have 7 of them, made in standardised sizes. So, any fittings such as stops or baseplates have to be bespoke. Lenses made in the 1850s and 60s were long before the standardised sizes and fittings which we became used to during the 20th Century.

William

eunified61
23-Aug-2021, 12:09
That is, of course, correct, Paul. The point I was trying to make is that Grubb lenses were not in my experience, I have 7 of them, made in standardised sizes. So, any fittings such as stops or baseplates have to be bespoke. Lenses made in the 1850s and 60s were long before the standardised sizes and fittings which we became used to during the 20th Century.

William

I made some at the expense of a couple of 5x7 aluminium plates they are working nicely

Willeica
8-Dec-2021, 10:26
My latest Grubb lens is an Aplanatic 12x10 No 5350, made by Howard Grubb in aluminium, and dating, I believe, from the 1890s. It has a diaphragm aperture control with the RPS scale f11.3 which was introduced between 1895 and 1902. The other f stops are f16,22,32, 45 and 64. The lens element is orange coated which may indicate astronomical, scientific, industrial or military use. Someone has suggested that it might have been for meteorological purposes as the orange filter would enhance the contrast in cloud formations. Suggestions about possible uses would be most welcome.

222153

222154

222155

222156

Comments welcome.

William

gfranzen
26-Mar-2022, 18:36
Responding to an earlier post in this thread re Watkins use of a Grubb C in Yosemite in 1861 - it seems that to cover 18x22 a focal length close to 30 inches would be necessary. Could any Grubb cover the mammoth plate format? Im doing research for a book on Watkins and find information on his tools difficult to find.

pgk
27-Mar-2022, 01:47
The Grubb Patent Aplanat with the code C had a 3" diameter lens, a 'true focus" of 15" and was advertised as covering from 10” x 8” to 12” x 10”, which could be varied by moving the washer stop holding mechanism in or out. Back in ~1860 the cost of the lens was £5 0s. 0d. Thomas Grubb did argue in the British Photographic Press with Sutton (who invented the Sotton Panoramic Lens) about lens coverage, and Grubb maintained that lens coverage should be defined as actual, usable coverage rather than the overall circle which was illuminated (actually he and Sutton were very antagonistic towards each other in the press generally over technical optical matters, as were many others with Sutton). Thomas Grubb probably ensured that the C lens could only physically operate from 10” x 8” to 12” x 10” in its mount. Mine certainly covers 10" x 8" and by using front shift it will cover more but my camera won't really let me do tests much beyond the 12" x 10" even shifting the front. My guess is that Thomas was right though and that 12" x 10" was the lenses limit for decent 'quality' images. I would be really very interested to know if you are able to determine and photographs by Watkins which were taken on the Grubb C lens. I've tracked down one or two taken by Bedford and Bourne which are confirmed as having been shot on Grubb Cs, but only one by Watkins which appears was probably/possibly taken on his Grubb C.

The only other comment I would make is that the Grubb F lens was advertised as having coverage from 18” x 16” to 22” x 20” and the G lens 22” x 20” to 26” x 22” so these would come closest to fitting your 18" x 22" coverage. I have not been able to track any examples of either as having survived, and at £14 and £20 they would have been very expensive. I do just wonder if it would be easy to mistake a written G for a C ..... ?

If you need any further information please pm me.

Willeica
28-Mar-2022, 04:29
I agree with everything that Paul (pgk) has said. An F or a G Grubb lens would have given the coverage necessary with focal lengths of 25" and 30 " respectively. The books about Watkins refer to a C lens as having been used, but you may need to go back to source documents to establish the basis for that. It is possible that a G was mistaken for a C. The table to which Paul refers can be seen on Post 80 here or in my article here http://britishphotohistory.ning.com/profiles/blogs/signing-19th-century-lenses-a-common-practice . I have seen calotype negatives taken in Ireland by Thomas Grubb himself from the early 1850s which were 10x8, implying a lens size of around that of the C. I have also seen some smaller prints by Grubb of around 7x5 or 8x6, which were displayed in an exhibition in 1857 and which may have been taken by a lens of around the A size. My biggest Grubb lens is a D, but that would not produce 18x22. The other issue is the size of the camera used by Watkins and the extension that was possible.

William

gfranzen
28-Mar-2022, 12:39
This is an amazing thread - an amazing forum.
Another possibility referenced here.
https://archive.rps.org/archive/volume-8/724646-volume-8-page-169?q=Grubb%20globe
There is an early letter somewhere where Watkins mentions a "globe" lens
The 1861 images ( I have seen original prints -Bancroft Library) are distinctly soft near the edges. The later new series from the 70s are very sharp into the corners. Watkins was a perfectionist. Whatever he used in 1861 was upgraded later. Bit that is another story.
Jerry

pgk
28-Mar-2022, 13:36
There is an early letter somewhere where Watkins mentions a "globe" lens

The dates of the Globe lens would need delving into: https://antiquecameras.net/harrisonglobelens.html and the date of the letter looking at.

I have no doubt at all that Grubb was producing his Patent lenses in 1857 and possibly (as pre-patented lenses) slightly earlier They were certainly in use by 1857/8 by photographers as is evidenced in the photographic press of the time.

Whilst researching Grubb, William (Willeica) and I have found a lot of evidence for dates which has then proven to be completely wrng when hard evidence has turned up! Its a difficult area of research. So for example, Kingslake wondered whether Dallmeyer came up with the Raid Rectilinear by combining two Grubb Patent Aplanatic lenses. In fact Grubb hade made and supplied such a lens two years before Dallmeyer patented it. But it wasn't until we saw a copy of a ledger confirming manufacture date that we could show that this had happened. Tracking down such material is hit and miss and very difficult.

Willeica
29-Mar-2022, 01:45
As regards what Watkins had, Tyler Green in 'Making the West American' mentions a 'cutting edge' Grubb C lens. I do, however, remember some mention of a Globe lens in connection with Watkins, but I cannot recall where.

The RPS link is interesting in that it refers to an image of Trinity College, which may be one that I have seen in a print. There is minor central barrel distortion in this image which may have been taken in the early 1850s. It is an image of about 7x5 or 8x6 and it is printed on flimsy but glossy paper and had been folded into a quarter size. It may well be the print of Trinity College which was entered into the 1857 London Society Exhibition at around the time that he made his patent application. It does , however, contain the distinctive handwriting of Thomas Grubb on the back, where he had written 'Note the railings in front of the College are in a curve' . The edges in the image, which may date from the early 1850s, are sharp and there is no sign of corner softness. As I indicated above, I believe that this image may have been taken with an A size lens. The notation on the back includes 'indecipherable' 70 degrees and 'College' 60 degrees.

I have a photograph of this print taken with a smartphone, but I cannot share it on a public forum as the print is still in private hands.

William

Ron (Netherlands)
29-Oct-2022, 04:29
Isn't the list on #52 updated anymore? Samples of the Grubb lenses in later posts like the ones from Williams' collection are not in the list - at least not all....

pgk
29-Oct-2022, 06:58
I will get around to it befor too long Ron. Just a few more records of existant lenses to add in.

Ron (Netherlands)
29-Oct-2022, 07:31
Responding to an earlier post in this thread re Watkins use of a Grubb C in Yosemite in 1861 - it seems that to cover 18x22 a focal length close to 30 inches would be necessary. Could any Grubb cover the mammoth plate format? Im doing research for a book on Watkins and find information on his tools difficult to find.

This was written by a member from another photo forum which might be of interest:

"In a book I have it is said he possibly used a Grubb-C in his early 1860's work but had to cut off the corners due to the lack of coverage for his mammoth plates and dicarded it for a wide-angled lens which he used for the 1865-66 Yosemite Survey pictures. They began to show much more space in the photos and he ceased cutting the corners of the photos after the purchase of the wide lens.....From a great book I bought at the Amon Carter Museum in Ft.Worth called CARLETON WATKINS--THE ART OF PERCEPTION"

<edit> perhaps the above was already known to some fellow members, since I just encountered this thread:https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158212-Which-lenses-did-Carleton-Watkins-use-in-1861-for-his-mammoth-plate-camera

Ron (Netherlands)
17-Nov-2022, 04:13
Another one for the list to add? has a clear serial number (perhaps bought by one of our fellowmembers):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thomas-Grubb-B-Patent-Brass-Photographic-Lens-2391-with-Lens-Flange-amp-Hood-/295336878498?nma=true&si=CiMZKHE3MsAmA2NwX10OficcQ2E%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~3cAAOSw~KNjcYyE/s-l1600.jpg

pgk
17-Nov-2022, 10:01
Another one for the list to add? has a clear serial number (perhaps bought by one of our fellowmembers):

It certainly was:o! I await delivery but it is a Doublet consisting of two of Grubb's Patent Aplanatic lenses around a central stop. The lens described by Kingslake as being the potential forerunner of the Rapid Rectilinear. The serial number dates it to before Dallmeyer patented the Rapid Rectilinear though nand it is ot the earliest of Grubb's Doublets to have survived. I have another which is missing hood and flanfe so I intend to get copies made from this one.
I now have a number of Grubbs and most seem to have been (heavily) used, including two from India, one of which appears to have been repolished at some point. If only they could talk and explain where they had been and what they had photographed (and who used them).

Ron (Netherlands)
17-Nov-2022, 12:35
Congrats Paul! A very nice sample indeed.

Not long ago nr. 3500 - a landscape lens - was sold:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/295310963050?hash=item44c1e7b16a%3Ag%3AO5cAAOSwOt1jVyuS&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoN25Qk2NP1igMJcqReYunVvo7mgdLYr9Ml%2FulGVMfvwjVCdbKsRToPNVH6OmZ6CqKDBj9%2BmdMwfjrpyNDGdaz4SsE18KzHIgko89OH5P8WEy0jFOyXv0arMGIoInAnyionmFyTgyLhEbhkPcW%2BSy65wGJqCUghvY8nwv89x921hE5G7kfS9bRqjR2fRFROHCScBJSxxNwGtH%2BKecJvtXRZk%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9rlovGQYQ&nma=true&si=LFF8UP1eYMhAv1o4ZgkHEojyg2I%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

...in a less beautiful state:


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/hPcAAOSw8BJjVyuT/s-l1600.jpg

pgk
17-Nov-2022, 12:43
Congrats Paul! A very nice sample indeed.

Not long ago nr. 3500 - a landscape lens - was sold:
...in a less beautiful state:

Its OK:)

Ron (Netherlands)
17-Nov-2022, 12:58
A comparable landscape lens with a much lower serial has been sold recently. It had the following inscription: "Ao Grubb Patent 1444":

https://kpmg0072.home.xs4all.nl/Grubb/Grubb%20nr%201444.png

From the description that was part of the offering one could ascertain that there were quite some anomalies with this one...but nevertheless nice to add to the list I guess

Any clue yet about the suffixes regarding Ao and Ax?

pgk
17-Nov-2022, 13:24
Any clue yet about the suffixes regarding Ao and Ax?

Yes. There were 3 lenses made by Thomas Grubb with the 'A' designation:

Code - Diameter - Focal Length - Coverage
Ax - 2" - 7.5" - 6” x 5”
A0 - 2" - 8.25" - 6” x 5” to 9” x 7”
A - 2" - 9" - 6” x 5” to 9” x 7”

The Ax was a 'later' lens and is a shorter focal lenth so maginally wider but it appears that this is at the expense of coverage. I have A0 and Ax but no A as yet. The only A lenses I have found as still potentially existing are fitted into Pantoscopic cameras but I am still trying to confirm this.

I'm writing up a history of Grubb lenses and have ~30k words written so far. Its quite fascinating as Grubb was well outside the mainstream in many ways (location, backgound and wide optical understanding - he used ray tracing) but his lenses were used by many influential photographers.

Ron (Netherlands)
17-Nov-2022, 13:56
Many thanks for this info Paul, and yes the designation and suffix explanation makes sense.



The only A lenses I have found as still potentially existing are fitted into Pantoscopic cameras but I am still trying to confirm this.


I guess you have seen nr. 2241 which is in the list and seems to be a pillbox lens with an 'A' without suffix.

Willeica
17-Nov-2022, 17:20
Congrats Paul! A very nice sample indeed.

Not long ago nr. 3500 - a landscape lens - was sold:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/295310963050?hash=item44c1e7b16a%3Ag%3AO5cAAOSwOt1jVyuS&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoN25Qk2NP1igMJcqReYunVvo7mgdLYr9Ml%2FulGVMfvwjVCdbKsRToPNVH6OmZ6CqKDBj9%2BmdMwfjrpyNDGdaz4SsE18KzHIgko89OH5P8WEy0jFOyXv0arMGIoInAnyionmFyTgyLhEbhkPcW%2BSy65wGJqCUghvY8nwv89x921hE5G7kfS9bRqjR2fRFROHCScBJSxxNwGtH%2BKecJvtXRZk%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9rlovGQYQ&nma=true&si=LFF8UP1eYMhAv1o4ZgkHEojyg2I%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

...in a less beautiful state:


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/hPcAAOSw8BJjVyuT/s-l1600.jpg

Willeica
17-Nov-2022, 17:26
Is this the one which quoted myself (by name) in the listing? I made an offer to the guy after it did not sell, but the seller never came back to me which was ironic. I've been too busy to go after this with a lot of other things including organising and speaking at conferences in relation to Leica which is my other big collecting interest. I believe that the item is now gone.

William

Ron (Netherlands)
18-Nov-2022, 01:00
Is this the one which quoted myself (by name) in the listing? I made an offer to the guy after it did not sell, but the seller never came back to me which was ironic. I've been too busy to go after this with a lot of other things including organising and speaking at conferences in relation to Leica which is my other big collecting interest. I believe that the item is now gone.

William

Indeed William, your name is in the original listing (which can be viewed by hitting the hyperlink). It is the same seller which sold the Doublet to Paul.

Willeica
18-Nov-2022, 17:35
Indeed William, your name is in the original listing (which can be viewed by hitting the hyperlink). It is the same seller which sold the Doublet to Paul.

So he will quote my name, but won't reply to my offers? This is right up there with the guys who produced the recently published brass lens book (which I bought) which contains a photo I took, without my knowledge or permission, and has quotes from articles (name acknowledged) I have written about Grubb lenses. All this was done without consulting me and/or asking my permission. If they had contacted me they would have got a lot more information about the findings which Paul and I have made over the last few years, so, in a sense , if you can say this about a book about 19th Century items, the book is out of date. The only good thing is the fact that one of the lenses which I own (an Ax) is shown in the book. The book is OK, but could have been a lot better with a bit more consultation, common sense and common decency.

William

Ron (Netherlands)
19-Nov-2022, 05:04
This is right up there with the guys who produced the recently published brass lens book (which I bought) which contains a photo I took, without my knowledge or permission, and has quotes from articles (name acknowledged) I have written about Grubb lenses. All this was done without consulting me and/or asking my permission.
William

Guess I bought the same book with the photo of 'The Leviathan'......and landscape lens Ax 3631
The photo of the landscape lens seems to have been taken from the Auction site....

most interesting info in this book about Grubb for me was the excerpt of and info about the 'Grubb lens ledger'.

pgk
19-Nov-2022, 06:17
.....most interesting info in this book about Grubb for me was the excerpt of and info about the 'Grubb lens ledger'.

I have been able to date several of my lenses to the day they were 'manufactured' or more likely completed which is quite extraordinary.

Whilst I have downloaded many photos of existing Grubb lenses I would only use them for personal reference and never publish them without consent. They are © after all.

Ron (Netherlands)
19-Nov-2022, 08:12
Whilst I have downloaded many photos of existing Grubb lenses I would only use them for personal reference and never publish them without consent. They are © after all.

Copyright law (domestic and international) is quite complicated and raises many questions, especially with regard to publicly available content on the internet; not easy to judge what is wright or wrong. In case of a book the publisher seems to be responsible to ascertain whether the book is not conflicting with copyrights and the like.

pgk
19-Nov-2022, 09:04
Copyright law (domestic and international) is quite complicated .....

Well, not really. Photographic © is usually the photographer's, although there are exceptions. Unauthorised usage, especially when there is a relatively easy way of contacting the person who showed the photo on the web, breaches © and as such can carry penalties (usage fees, sometime punitive). It requires a civil action if it is to be enforced of course, but in William's case it would be very straihtforward were he to puruse it, though probaby not worthwhile. Linking to a photo on the web can avoid this, but using a photo in a publication without consent is a bit of a no-no really.

Willeica
19-Nov-2022, 16:46
Guess I bought the same book with the photo of 'The Leviathan'......and landscape lens Ax 3631
The photo of the landscape lens seems to have been taken from the Auction site....

most interesting info in this book about Grubb for me was the excerpt of and info about the 'Grubb lens ledger'.

Paul and I have some of the entries in that ledger. For example, I have the one for 3631, which is in my collection, so I know the exact date that it was finished in 1875. It looks like the lenses were finished in batches in Rathmines after the Great Melbourne Telescope had been finished and just before work commenced on the Vienna Observatory. I have several photos of the Rathmines building from the 1870s, including one which had been taken by a gentleman who had come over from Vienna. It should still be in the Vienna Observatory archives. It is nice to have both the works record for my lens and also a picture of the building in which it was made in the 1870s. I do intend to use the lens to take some photos of of the spot at which it was made. The building is, however, long since gone. I have brought Paul (pgk) to that spot. I have also photographed the Ax lens and my Grubb Helicoid lens sitting on the graves of both Thomas and Howard Grubb and also on one of the Grubb coelostats at Dunsink Obervatory which were used to prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity. I have also had the geometry set of Thomas Grubb in my hands and I know where it is still located. There is a lot more, some of which I cannot mention here.

The photo of Ax 3631 probably came from the Breker Auction website. Speaking of Vienna, I have full permission to use the images of items at the Leitz Photographica Auction, once I acknowledge the source. The guys in Vienna know and trust me

I know all about the copyright issues. All I can do is to repeat what I have already said, which is that the guys who produced the book lost out by not getting in touch with me. Surely, the fact that a Grubb collector lived in Ireland, just a few miles from where the Grubb factory was located, would have rung some bells for them.

William

Ron (Netherlands)
25-Nov-2022, 15:47
An early bird for the list, which sold for a fine price a few days ago, an 'E' aplanatic:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/qN0AAOSwdfRjfDRP/s-l1600.jpg

pgk
26-Nov-2022, 02:05
An early bird for the list, which sold for a fine price a few days ago, an 'E' aplanatic

The largest of the Grubb Patent stereo lenses - 7" focal length and intended to cover 4" x 4". It sold fast

pgk
29-Nov-2022, 11:12
Another Grubb lens arrived today - a Doublet. It was made on 6th October 1865 and I have another made on 22nd June 1865, both of which are designated as being 'B' lenses so they should be identical. Or so I thought. They are not. Not vastly different but the earlier is slightly bigger and the flange is not interchangeable. The joy of bespoke manufacture using steam powered lathes! This is the sixth Grubb Doublet that I have tracked as surviving, via the web. They are not plentiful.

Ron (Netherlands)
29-Nov-2022, 12:01
Congrats on the acquisition. do you want to reveal their serial numbers? or post any pictures?

(since the list here became rapidly outdated I started to have my own updated)

pgk
29-Nov-2022, 15:20
I need to convert my spreadsheet so that it works in a post. I have currently tracked nearly 140 surviving Grubb lenses (father and son) with a few others buried in museum collections which seem to be difficult to access and get information about. Some have lost their glass though and at least one is an amalgam of two Petzvals! Many have been used hard and show it and I own one which appears to have been lightly repolished at some point (I bought this one from India where someone has clearly worked on it, and quite well by the look of it. Few have really pristine optics and all the Patent lenses from Thomas have rice writing on them. I have about 30k words written about the Grubbs, their photographic lenses and the contemporary users of them (Francis Bedford, Samuel Bourne, Carleton Watkins and Thomas Annan as examples).

Willeica
29-Nov-2022, 17:13
Another Grubb lens arrived today - a Doublet. It was made on 6th October 1865 and I have another made on 22nd June 1865, both of which are designated as being 'B' lenses so they should be identical. Or so I thought. They are not. Not vastly different but the earlier is slightly bigger and the flange is not interchangeable. The joy of bespoke manufacture using steam powered lathes! This is the sixth Grubb Doublet that I have tracked as surviving, via the web. They are not plentiful.

Paul, I believe we have found that many Grubb lenses are effectively bespoke. Have you two that are exactly the same as regards both designation and dimensions? None of mine are the same despite having the same designations e.g. C lenses.

William

peter brooks
30-Nov-2022, 01:53
I need to convert my spreadsheet so that it works in a post...

A Google Sheet works well - you can set permissions on it so you can edit it and others can just view it. Being web based you can then put a link to it in any post.

Karl French did this with the Cooke Portrait Lens Serial Numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zan_PR-3rcPkejlblOhAjLPdZQ_saO3HLEG2a-dmsKc/edit?usp=sharing), and I (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery) made one for the TTH RV, RVP and CAP lenses (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pifCxXQhHzosgOPgL1IeFu2EoJVVgChFlw1WvH_Kw1s/edit?usp=sharing).

If you use Excel you certainly wouldn't have any problem using a Google Sheet. You can paste your data in straight from Excel. Inserting or deleting rows is a bit different, as is copying and pasting, but it's easy to get the hang of.

(There are obviously pros and cons to Google - I have a Google account for this purpose alone! :) )

pgk
30-Nov-2022, 02:46
Paul, I believe we have found that many Grubb lenses are effectively bespoke. Have you two that are exactly the same as regards both designation and dimensions? None of mine are the same despite having the same designations e.g. C lenses. William

William. The later 'C' Patent lenses seem pretty close and as though their dimensions were at least intended to be the same. Otherwise only the Petzvals really look as though they were very similar. Most of Grubb's lenses seem to have slight differences. This even includes placement of the washer stop in relation to the glass and I wonder if there was some consideration of the user's requirements (I have a stereo lens which is far better at closer distances than at infinity for example). Flanges vary in style and depth and thread(!), the washer stop retaining rings vary as does the length of the washer stop tubes. Some lenses are heavily built and other more lightly. From the surviving ledger it is clear that lenses were batch built so perhaps each batch, which could be separated by months, simply had a machinist assigned to make the brasswork without any absolute guidance other than following a roughly dimensioned design? I doubt that we will ever know now.

Grubb lenses are intriguing because from the known and surmisable production information it appears that there was small but continuous demand for the lenses over many years - production probably spans something between 40~50 years, with the odd later specification lens appearing (the Ax being an example which was introduced around ~10 years after the patent). One thing which all Thomas Grubb's Patent lenses share is minute rice writing on the glass though.

I'll work on the spreadsheet later.

pgk
30-Nov-2022, 04:34
Struggling as I don't use Google but here's a pdf:233070
Lenses in bold have been examined by myself. Any details of known additional lenses would be much appreciated.

Ron (Netherlands)
30-Nov-2022, 12:43
Thank you Paul for providing your informative list.
A quick check against my list reveals that I have two lenses with a serial number that are not on your list yet. However I have to double checked the source, before I can provide you with these.

pgk
30-Nov-2022, 12:48
Thanks Ron. Any info much appreciated - and pix if at all possible.

pgk
1-Dec-2022, 04:00
Something which might interest any owners of Grubb lenses which are missing their flange, is that Thomas Grubb seems to have been an early adopter of the 1841 Whitworth screw thread. In 1847 it was used (1.25" x 16tpi) by the Royal Astronomical Society as their standard for telescope eyepieces which is where Grubb might have got the idea from. All the Grubb flange threads I have been able to look at appear to have Whitworth form threads although diameter and tpi do vary substantiall across the lens range, and some flanges from the same designation lenses are clearly of very similar (the same) thread but are too tight/loose to be usable - bespoke and hand made using steam powered lathes led to some tolerance problems by the look of it!

pgk
28-Dec-2022, 08:07
So here's an oddity. This is a late Grubb lens engraved as being from Sir Howard Grubb. Dating it is not easy. It is certainly post 1883 as the London Agent's details confirm this. But it is a late lens and not far off Willeica's aluminium lens which has the highest know serial number. So its far more likely to be from the 1890s. It has been modified which is shown by the impingement on the engraving which seems to have occured when the rotary stop mechanism was fitted. But what is most intriguing is that the glass itself is inscribed with Grubb Patent and the serial number. This accords with Thomas Grubb's practice from much earlier and indicates that whilst this lens is much later (30~40 years later), it is still of the 1857 patented design. It looks very much like the glass is similar, or the same as one of Thomas Grubb's 'A' coded Patent lenses, although obviously the brasswork is completely different. As such it would have been well out of date when manufactured and superseded by newer designs some of which may have been using Jena glass and would have been of better performance. I'm intrigued to know why. Does anyone have any suggestions?
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif

Willeica
28-Dec-2022, 15:26
Very nice, Paul. This looks very similar to my aluminium Grubb lens No 5350 which has a diaphragm (starting with the RPS scale No f11.3) and orange coated glass elements. Because of the last mentioned feature, it is difficult to see if it contains the usual engraved on glass writing. However, this is obviously not a lens for the general market, but rather for some, as yet undiscovered, scientific purpose. The barrel is engraved ' Howard Grubb - Dublin- Aplanatic 12 x10 - 5350. There is no reference to a London or any other Selling Agent.

William

Ron (Netherlands)
29-Dec-2022, 07:11
Thanks Ron. Any info much appreciated - and pix if at all possible.

Hi Paul, after double checking it appears there is only one which seems to be missing in your list: nr. "3823 B3 Grubb Dublin" portrait lens.
(I have also nr. 5291 in my list, but can't find its source - so that one must be left out).
A photo of 3823 can be found in the book of Agostini page 300.

pgk
29-Dec-2022, 07:40
Thanks Ron. FWIW the largest Grubb Petzval I've tracked down as still existing is here: https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/studio-camera-lens/1005305/viewer#?#viewer&c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=-1858%2C314%2C5339%2C2537&r=

fabphoto73
29-Dec-2022, 10:30
234081

Here are two that don't appear to be on the list. Stereo pair 907 & 908. Not mine and can't remember the source.

pgk
29-Dec-2022, 10:39
Thanks. Stereo lenses are always of interest. My researches suggest that Samuel Bourne was a user of these but unfortunately very few stero photos are attributed to him as he preferred 12" x 10 prints from his Grubb 'C' Patent Lens. I would like to find evidence that Francis Bedford used Grubb stereo lenses; they certainly knew each other and corresponded.

Ron (Netherlands)
30-Dec-2022, 04:57
Thanks Ron. FWIW the largest Grubb Petzval I've tracked down as still existing is here: https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/studio-camera-lens/1005305/viewer#?#viewer&c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=-1858%2C314%2C5339%2C2537&r=

Intriguing Paul!
The description of St Andrews says it is lens nr. 1128, but looking closely at the picture it must be serial nr. 1428.

pgk
30-Dec-2022, 05:21
Intriguing Paul!
The description of St Andrews says it is lens nr. 1128, but looking closely at the picture it must be serial nr. 1428.

The Engravings can be difficult to make out. I have a couple which are very awkward to determine absolutely. Odd that for a maker who designed engraving machine for the Bank of Ireland, engraving is not always as well done as might be hoped!

fabphoto73
2-Jan-2023, 07:31
This may be of some interest from a 1860 Photographic Journal: An excerpt of correspondence between Thomas Grubb & Thomas Sutton regarding his Aplanatic lenses. Mr. Sutton refers to a photographic print he received from a professional photographer taken by a pair of Grubb lenses. Then later as a P.S. makes reference to the print belonging to Mr. Bedford( if I have read it correctly). I believe it is Francis Bedford since he is mentioned a few times elsewhere in the volume and having used Grubb lenses.

pgk
2-Jan-2023, 08:11
Sutton and Grubb spent a lot of energy in acrimonious debate in the photographic press. They did not get on at all. Sutton was an interesting character, clearly from a very privilged background and a wrangler from a prestigious university. He lived in London then Jersey and eventually moved to Pwllheli in North Wales which is where he dies - an up an coming seaside town in Victorian times but rather a backwater even soas it required curved plates. His Globe lens was somewhat impractcal and proved to be a dead end. His gripe was about Grubb's Patent lens concerned distrtion, which certainly existed, but could if need be be minimised by moving a stop on Grubb's lens closer towards the glass, at the expense of field of view. What started the argument off is not clear but Sutton does not seem to have appreciated Grubb's use of ray tracing and general understanding of optics. There was also disparaging comment by Sutton about Grubb being from Ireland which did little to support his arguments and by today's standards looks rather pathetic. Whilst Sutton had his positive aspects, his arguments with Grubb were something of a low point. Francis Bedford was evidently a satisfied Grubb user and even sent Lady Rosse a print upon which he wrote it had been taken on a Grubb lens, knowing that Lady Rosse knew Thomas Grubb; hardly the action of a disatisfied customer!

Ron (Netherlands)
3-Jan-2023, 07:29
Sutton and Grubb spent a lot of energy in acrimonious debate in the photographic press. They did not get on at all. Sutton was an interesting character, clearly from a very privilged background and a wrangler from a prestigious university. He lived in London then Jersey and eventually moved to Pwllheli in North Wales which is where he dies - an up an coming seaside town in Victorian times but rather a backwater even soas it required curved plates. His Globe lens was somewhat impractcal and proved to be a dead end. His gripe was about Grubb's Patent lens concerned distrtion, which certainly existed, but could if need be be minimised by moving a stop on Grubb's lens closer towards the glass, at the expense of field of view. What started the argument off is not clear but Sutton does not seem to have appreciated Grubb's use of ray tracing and general understanding of optics. There was also disparaging comment by Sutton about Grubb being from Ireland which did little to support his arguments and by today's standards looks rather pathetic. Whilst Sutton had his positive aspects, his arguments with Grubb were something of a low point. Francis Bedford was evidently a satisfied Grubb user and even sent Lady Rosse a print upon which he wrote it had been taken on a Grubb lens, knowing that Lady Rosse knew Thomas Grubb; hardly the action of a disatisfied customer!

Weren't the Sutton globe lenses made by Thomas Ross? ...clearly a competitor to Grubb, so we might understand better Suttons (unsympathetic) position from that angle of view....

pgk
3-Jan-2023, 08:20
Weren't the Sutton globe lenses made by Thomas Ross?

A history of Sutton's Globe lens is here: http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_L129.html

Sutton foresaw no problems with the curved field image. Unfortunately for him they didn't catch on. His 'rare' lenses now command high prices despite being an economic failure when produced. Such is the way of the world!

Willeica
3-Jan-2023, 08:32
Weren't the Sutton globe lenses made by Thomas Ross? ...clearly a competitor to Grubb, so we might understand better Suttons (unsympathetic) position from that angle of view....

Sutton's main claim to fame was as the taker of the world's first colour photograph, working with James Clerk Maxwell. He had an eye to the lens market and worked with Ross on the 1858 Sutton Triplet. I have heard it said that there was concern in London that Grubb might undercut London makers by virtue of the lower level of wages in Dublin at that time, but none of that could, even by the standards of the day, forgive Sutton's apparently racist opinions as expressed openly in the pages of the Journal.

Bedford acted as a user and 'influencer' for a number of lens manufacturers. I found writing in pencil on the back of a Grubb print which seems to say Mr F Bedford. I have sent that to Paul (pgk) for his opinion as to whether it is Bedford's name. It is not clear if that was written by Thomas Grubb, but there is other writing in pen, on the back of the same print, which is clearly from Thomas Grubb and which is obviously related to his patent application which was 'live' at the time of the writing.

Thomas Grubb did not have a university education and his son Howard was pulled out of Trinity College Dublin, without completing his degree, in order to work on the Great Melbourne Telescope. The Grubbs found other areas to exploit with their great abilities and work ethic and their achievements were widely recognised. The fact that they did not fully engage long term with the camera lens market does not detract from their achievements in the field of photographic lenses. I have used their lenses and have found them to be of the highest quality. A distinguished professor of optics to whom I showed some Grubb lenses recently was also very impressed.

William

pgk
3-Jan-2023, 09:33
For anyone interested in the Grubbs there is the book by Ian Glass: "Victorian Telescope Makers Te lives and letters of Thomas nd Howard Grubb", However only one out of 250+ pages refers to photographic lenses the rest being predominantly about the telescopes and other scientific instruments that the Grubbs were both famous for. Thomas Grubb seems to have been interested in photography by at least 1850ish but the 1866 contract for the Great Melbourne Telescope (worth a lot back then) seems to have been the factor which decided the future direction of business and from then on photographic lens production appears to have become somewhat sporadic, often probably bespoke, and astronomy's gain was photography's loss. The Grubbs may well have been 'instinctive' opticians with an understanding of what they were tying to achieve opticalyl allied with practical and precise engineering skills which enabled them to make things happen within the technial confines of the times they lived in.

Ron (Netherlands)
6-Apr-2023, 00:13
nr 3638 has been sold:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145010573930?hash=item21c34dc26a:g:shsAAOSwefhkJPnU&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8HuO7xMgfoFbKdCzN6hPm01spM6pFY9Ad4x9EEnulH%2Fp%2BNOCLu8LD2BvcHYe%2BeqaXdK68ys67fGIreHV2Tg%2FMwdXw2tlTKN9dZRR9oRAAk%2BhuZHZkF4mPuKzILoL0LWoDOjp6ZhbT00ffC3k%2FZJDmgWTr%2Fq9nJZ6UrFNmYkuk4GDZ12slmretu1ORhpZO%2F2ne12PvvnkbcfIikAojorfsqp8rPsrfivBYbwQF2cPL3ty89uAN2CNPl7uBDmG2YUIXjQNcgYxnXSq7%2BCFt%2BYzEShKY%2FOU4xKCBAqqfxPXrLsss5r%2BYBMr3wKi%2FQjwEpVROA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_TfjdbqYQ
together with a microscope tube?

pgk
6-Apr-2023, 01:16
The stereo lenses now seem to being climbing in price. I find them surprisingly good centrally although they quickly fall off in terms of resolution. One thing which helps is that the pillbox design minimises flare which can be a real problem in such early lenses, as the sample attached illustrates.
237377

Ron (Netherlands)
6-Apr-2023, 03:06
The stereo lenses now seem to being climbing in price. I find them surprisingly good centrally although they quickly fall off in terms of resolution. One thing which helps is that the pillbox design minimises flare which can be a real problem in such early lenses, as the sample attached illustrates.
237377

nice experiment!

Willeica
6-May-2023, 15:56
My latest Grubb lens, a Petzval type A2 CDV and Portrait lens, has arrived. It is No 2558. I suspect it may be from the late 1860s. It is generally in good condition, apart from having a bent pinion with no wheel, but the lens will move in and out. I see that, according to the Salomons ad, this lens was for CDV and 4x3 images. It did not come with any Waterhouse stops, even though it was originally supplied with 7 of them.

238506238507


I have also been offered an article which Howard wrote in 1879 about stereoscopy. I am to get it on Monday and, if it contains anything of potential interest to members here, I will post it.

William

Ron (Netherlands)
7-May-2023, 03:16
My latest Grubb lens, a Petzval type A2 CDV and Portrait lens, has arrived. It is No 2558. I suspect it may be from the late 1860s. It is generally in good condition, apart from having a bent pinion with no wheel, but the lens will move in and out. I see that, according to the Salomons ad, this lens was for CDV and 4x3 images. It did not come with any Waterhouse stops, even though it was originally supplied with 7 of them.

238506238507


I have also been offered an article which Howard wrote in 1879 about stereoscopy. I am to get it on Monday and, if it contains anything of potential interest to members here, I will post it.

William

Nice find! I would be interested to know the thread and diameter of the screws used in the pinion assembly and the length and diameter of the pinion.

pgk
7-May-2023, 03:28
Nice find! I would be interested to know the thread and diameter of the screws used in the pinion assembly and the length and diameter of the pinion.

I have a similar lens. I'll try to get around to measuring the threads (I have Whitworth thread guages and Grubb used Whitworth threads) and the pinion sizes when I get time and post details.

Ron (Netherlands)
7-May-2023, 05:27
I have a similar lens. I'll try to get around to measuring the threads (I have Whitworth thread guages and Grubb used Whitworth threads) and the pinion sizes when I get time and post details.

That would be great; thanks in advance

pgk
11-May-2023, 11:44
Hmmmm. Dug my copy out. The screws are different suggesting that they, or some of them, have been replaced. I will remove them and see if they share the same thread and if it is still a Whitworth thread!

Willeica
23-May-2023, 15:18
I am doing a large ongoing job, cataloguing and describing the camera and lens collection of the Photographic Society of Ireland, which was founded as the Dublin Photographic Society (PSI) in 1854. Thomas Grubb was a founder member and Secretary and Howard Grubb was later a President of the Society. Two Grubb lenses were previously described as being in the collection. Last week I came across one of them, which is No 3878, an Ax lens from the mid-late 1870s, which is mounted on a Sliding Box Camera from the 1850s/60s. No 3878 has better brass than No 3631, which is in my collection, but my one has glass which is in better condition. The lens in the PSI Collection came with 3 washer stops. The collection is in the National Photographic Archive which sits under the National Library of Ireland. The collection contains many other exceedingly rare items such as two Ives Kromskop stereo colour cameras from the 1890s. One of these is said to have the original manual with it.

239080
239081
239082

William

pgk
6-Feb-2024, 07:38
Intiguingly I have been carefully examining a lens engraved Howard Grubb and which I am thinking is probably from the 1990s )certainly post 1883 but more likely 1895+). Surprise, surprise it too has 'rice writing' on the glass of 'Grubb Patent serial number'. Also intriguingly, it looks very much like one of Thomas Grubb's 'A' type Patent lenses but fitted into completely different brasswork and with a rotating stop mechanism at the front. If I'm right then this would suggest that Grubb Patent lenses were on sale for around 40 years even if only in small quantities.

Also FWIW I have tracked around 150 Grubb surviving lenses to date although not all are complete and some details are scant to say the very least. I also estimate that complete production from both Thomas and Howard is probably less than 4500 in total, or which ~300 were from Howard.

Ron (Netherlands)
7-Feb-2024, 14:28
239080
239081
239082

William

Very nice lens and sliding box camera, William. Could you tell us about the dimensions of the camera, and does it have a makerslabel?

pgk
7-Feb-2024, 14:51
I am sure that William will reply (I know that he's somewhat busy) but the lens has 2 inch diameter glass fitted in the rear black ring which will give you some idea.

Ron (Netherlands)
7-Feb-2024, 15:09
I am sure that William will reply (I know that he's somewhat busy) but the lens has 2 inch diameter glass fitted in the rear black ring which will give you some idea.

Thank you Paul; that would make the width and hight of its likely square front probably somewhere between 7 and 8 inches.....

Steven Tribe
9-Feb-2024, 04:48
Not sure if there have been previous links to this advert section of a publication or if the link is dead - but here is the key to A,B etc markings.

pgk
9-Feb-2024, 11:40
Thanks Steven. ould you provide dates for the second two please?

The Advert I'd really like to get hold of is the ‘original’ advertisement of April 9th, 1859 in “The Photographic Journal” (No 82) which is referred to in later advertisements as showing the prices of lenses. I believe that this may be the first advert which lists the available early lenses

Willeica
9-Feb-2024, 17:27
Very nice lens and sliding box camera, William. Could you tell us about the dimensions of the camera, and does it have a makerslabel?

The size of the image is max 5x5 inches , but the screen is ruled for 3 1/2 x 4 and 21/4 x3 inches. This is not uncommon with 19th Century cameras and a lot of the cameras I have catalogued recently have this type of pencil ruling on the rear screen. There is no maker's name on the camera, but it is typical of Sliding Box cameras from the late 1850s/early 1860s.

A bonus for you if you are interested in Ross and Dallmeyer lenses is my recent talk on YouTube on the fitting of Ross and Dallmeyer lenses to early Leicas. There is a picture of some of my Grubb lenses in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOqNGCAIOsU&t=137s

William





William

Willeica
9-Feb-2024, 17:44
Not sure if there have been previous links to this advert section of a publication or if the link is dead - but here is the key to A,B etc markings.

We have quite a few advertisements by Grubb. Any that are marked 141 Leinster Road are after 1863/4 when he moved there from Leinster Square. I have brought Paul (pgk) to these addresses. I have seen a photo taken by Grubb from the window of his Leinster Square House in the early 1850s. It is in collection which I am trying to have saved to a safe archive. I have also acquired recently some landscape photos recently which were taken by Francis Bedford in Wales c 1870. Mr Grubb had mentioned in his early/mid 1860s advertisements that Bedford was a user of his lenses. I will post some of these along with some recent acquisitions and also have a look again at my Grubb/Watson Aplanatic Doublet and aluminium Howard Grubb Aplanatic Doublet to see if they contain any engraving in the light of Paul's recent discovery.

William

Willeica
10-Feb-2024, 09:38
My latest Grubb lens, an A3 Petzval Type No 1268.

246415
246414
246416

William

Willeica
10-Feb-2024, 09:45
I mentioned that I would check my Grubb/Watson Aplanatic Doublet No 5045 and my Aluminium Aplanatic No 5350, the highest Grubb lens Number I have seen, for engraved 'rice writing' on the glass in the light of Paul's (pgk). I have checked again and I can find no such engraving. Neither lens has a Patent engraving on the lens barrel. All of my Grubb Patent Aplanatics have the 'rice writing' engraving.

My full Grubb collection is below. The rarest items are No 509 with the helicoid and No 5350 in aluminium at far left and far right in the back row respectively.

246417

William

Willeica
10-Feb-2024, 10:12
I mentioned my recent acquisition of photographs of North Wales (Portmadog, Anglesey,Snowdon etc) taken by Francis Bedford c 1870. In the mid 1860s Thomas Grubb was advertising the use of his lenses by Mr Bedford. I like to think that Bedford was using a Grubb lens (or lenses) at the time he captured these splendid landscape images.

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William

Mark J
10-Feb-2024, 10:37
Wow , these are great. Look at all the fishing boats at Porthmadoc ; and how big the Dinorwig slate quarry already was in 1870 ( in the last shot ) .
Thanks !

Willeica
10-Feb-2024, 10:47
This might belong properly in a stereo thread, but as it relates to a paper delivered by Howard Grubb in January 1879 to the Royal Dublin Society (RDS) very shortly after his father Thomas had passed away, I think it belongs here. Howard looked at the Stereoscope designs of Charles Wheatcroft (reflecting 1838) and David Brewster (lenticular 1849) and concluded that while the former was superior optically, the latter was a winner in terms of compactness, convenience and cheapness. Howard went on to suggest some improvements in the Stereoscope, but, as far as I know, his firm never produced such an item. They were too busy with building observatories around the world, creating the standard rifle sight, making periscopes for the Royal Navy, as well as making the coelostat which was used to prove Einstein's Theory of General Relativity (last picture below) and many other items. I have enclosed just the first page of his talk, but I have the full talk in a pdf which I can send by email to anyone who wants it

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William

Willeica
10-Feb-2024, 10:56
Wow , these are great. Look at all the fishing boats at Porthmadoc ; and how big the Dinorwig slate quarry already was in 1870 ( in the last shot ) .
Thanks !

Thanks, Mark. I really love them. He was a great photographer and whatever lens he was using was not bad either. I have passed through this area many times after travelling from Dublin to Holyhead and Paul (pgk) lived nearby up to a few years ago, so the area is one I can relate to. On a clear day and in particular atmospheric conditions you can see the mountains of Snowdonia from Dublin, where I live.

William

Willeica
11-Feb-2024, 01:44
Wow , these are great. Look at all the fishing boats at Porthmadoc ; and how big the Dinorwig slate quarry already was in 1870 ( in the last shot ) .
Thanks !

Two more by Bedford from c1870, as you like them so much. Can you identify the building beside the mound or just the location?

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William

Steven Tribe
12-Feb-2024, 00:21
Thanks Steven. ould you provide dates for the second two please?

The Advert I'd really like to get hold of is the ‘original’ advertisement of April 9th, 1859 in “The Photographic Journal” (No 82) which is referred to in later advertisements as showing the prices of lenses. I believe that this may be the first advert which lists the available early lenses

All three Pages are screen shots of a single advert from 1868.
Found when I was doing a Google search for “Alexis Millet”!

https://books.google.com/books/about/Photographic_Wrinkles_remedies_and_recip.html?id=UTFkAAAAcAAJ

Willeica
15-Feb-2024, 16:46
My latest discovery, a lovely Howard Grubb Aplanatic No 4009 for 10x8 plates from the 1880s. It has a diaphragm with the range f16-f64, although it does go wider to perhaps f12 or f14 at the wide end. The diameter of the lens is 2.5 inches. There is no sign of any 'rice writing' engraving on the edge of the glass, but there is no patent claim on the lens. This item is part of the collection of the former Photographic Society of Ireland (founded in 1854 as the Dublin Photographic Society) which I am cataloguing at our National Photographic Archive (part of our National Library). Howard Grubb was President of that Society in 1888/1889. The lens is in lovely condition and I am wondering whether Howard might have presented the lens to the Society. The serial number would belong to a pre-diaphragm era, so more research is needed.

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Not dissimilar to my own aluminium Howard Grubb lens 5350 for 10x12 (orange coated glass element)

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Comments are welcome, of course.


William

Mark J
15-Feb-2024, 17:50
Sorry I missed these. Is that Llyn Dinas in the second shot ?

Willeica
16-Feb-2024, 01:26
Mark, various locations were mentioned in the auction lot, but were not matched with the photos. I will send you the complete set of auctioneer's images and also the list of names given by the auctioneer and maybe you can match and identify them for me? It is great that you can identify locations from how they looked 150 years ago. It says a lot for the unspoilt nature of North Wales.

William

pgk
16-Feb-2024, 02:02
Sorry I missed these. Is that Llyn Dinas in the second shot ?

Looks like Llyn Gwynant to me. The building is still there but had boarded windows last time I saw it. At the vally bottom to the right of the photo is the campsite.

pgk
16-Feb-2024, 02:13
4009 is a real oddity in that the serial number places it firmly amongst the earlier type lenses originated by Thomas Grubb, but it is clearly marked as being from Howard and is obviously of much later design and it even features an aperture diaphragm. Of the currently tracked and known lenses there are very few lenses of serial number 4000+ and all those from Howard bear serial numbers from 5000-5350 (the highest known serial number). So what does this lens represent? A use of unused serial numbers? But then why start using 5000 serial numbers? Anything is possible. Perhaps the list of used serial numbers was lost and they restarted with a new batch at 5000?

Mark J
16-Feb-2024, 15:03
Looks like Llyn Gwynant to me. The building is still there but had boarded windows last time I saw it. At the vally bottom to the right of the photo is the campsite.
You're right, and my mistake was thinking that Dinas was the higher lake, I just checked the map !
Is the previous picture looking up from Llyn Dinas towards Gwynant, then ? - or is it in Ogwen ?

Willeica
16-Feb-2024, 17:35
My view is that this was a factory test lens donated by Howard to the PSI sometime after he had been President in 1888/89. It used an earlier lens element with later features similar to those of 5350 which I own. That is why I posted a picture of it above. I had thought this lens was lost until we 'found' it again last Wednesday.

William

pgk
17-Feb-2024, 03:44
Is the previous picture looking up from Llyn Dinas towards Gwynant, then ? - or is it in Ogwen ?

I think its Nant Peris (much smaller than today!) looking up the Pass of Llanberis.

pgk
27-Mar-2024, 06:30
Today I received an A3 Petzval by Grubb and dating from the early 1860s. The glass was absolutely filthy and there was even an old sticker on the rear element. Careful application of Zeiss lens cleaner using several microfibre cloths soon dealt with this and revealed almost immaculate glass with virtually no marks whatsoever on it. Included was a double ring flange (adapters rings by the look of it) which was a close but incorrect fit, and 7 Waterhouse stops which work so well that they are almost certainly either original or made for the lens. It is now sitting on a camera waiting to be used.

Mark J
27-Mar-2024, 11:42
Very good indeed !

Willeica
27-Mar-2024, 17:13
Paul, the stops are very interesting and it is the first time I have seen anything like them. You should post a picture here when you get a chance. I only have one Grubb Waterhouse stop, on an Aplanatic Doublet with Grubb and Watson markings, and it is quite different to the ones which came with your A3 Petzval.

William