Resolution test for Epson V700

[SteveH]

Hi
I finally bit the bullet and embraced digital printing and have just bought an Epson V700 with the Better Scanning 5x4" wet/dry mounts.
So far, having determined my optium height with the BS holder (2 3/4 turns out) I can see no significant difference against film scanned with the Epson holders at their best setting.
This is just dry-mounted, no doubt wet mounting would be a different issue. I am still waiting on my Epson 3880 printer so can't test print output just yet.
But with about 200 of my best negs & trannies to scan, the Epson film holder is looking pretty attractive for it's faster workflow - no tape, no alignment issues, no "document not found" preview errors, just drop in the film and shut the gate.

I'm prepared to conceed at this stage that my testing proceedure is not flawless and would like advice on how to fine tune my resolution/sharpness tests.

I was thinking about maybe contact printing a glass USAF1951 target (if I can get hold of one for less than $150) onto fine grain B&W film or maybe just shooting a big printout of a sharpened USAF1951.
Any ideas?
What is the finest grained 5x4" film now that Tech Pan has joined George Eastman in the great yellow heaven?:( I don't even see PanF available in sheets anywhere.
Cheers
Steve

[Jostie]

When we used to set up new enlargers the sharpness test we used was an exposed neg (all over exposed to mid grey) which, using a sharp blade we scratched lines into the emulsion side of the neg. With these scratches it is very easy to check focus.

[Joanna Carter]

It is perfectly possible for an Epson holder to be "accidentally" moulded to the perfect height for the scanner it is shipped with.

The main difference between the Epson holder and the Better Scanning holder is that the Better Scanning holder will hold the film flat against the glass, whilst the Epson holder allows the film to move under the warmth of the lamp.

Also, when you adjusted the Better Scanning height, did you check the height needed to be the same at all four corners?

[SteveH]

Hi Jostie
I did the same thing. I was thinking maybe my neg wasn't sharp enough so I scoured some fine knife-lines across a throw-away neg, but I was concerned that a knife cut is actually a 3 dimensional artifact so it is hard to determine exact focus. However when comparing scour lines I seemed to find even greater indication of sharpness with the Epson holders than with BS holders. I also looked at shooting-stage dust marks thinking they would be sharper than film-captured images.

Joanna:- I actually found noticable neg sag with the BS holders. Even after careful taping the center would hang slightly lower that the edges - gravity works in collusion with the (slight) natural curl of the film. With the Epson holders I imagine gravity will more likely act to flatten the neg.

BTW I am not trying to talk up the Epson holders over the BS holders, enough reputable people have posted here in favour of the BS holders, maybe I'm just lucky or more likely my testing regime is not precise enough.

cheers
Steve

[engl]

Keep in mind that it takes some time to learn how to get the best result from a scanner. If you start scanning your best 200 negs/slides right away, you are almost certainly going to rescan at least part of them if you want the best possible result.

If you have some other less critical work you could start with that, it will give you practice without the need to rescan everything as you fine tune your workflow.

[SteveH]

Also, when you adjusted the Better Scanning height, did you check the height needed to be the same at all four corners?

No, so far I am just using a single setting for the entire holder, but I am checking focus over various parts of the neg.
This would be an obvious advantage of the BS holders though; the ability to 'level' the holder against a less than flat focus plane.

Steve

[SteveH]

Keep in mind that it takes some time to learn how to get the best result from a scanner. If you start scanning your best 200 negs/slides right away, you are almost certainly going to rescan at least part of them if you want the best possible result.

If you have some other less critical work you could start with that, it will give you practice without the need to rescan everything as you fine tune your workflow.

Thanks Engl
I really don"t want to start archival scanning until I am sure I am doing it right.
I have used a 2450 for years but only for proofs and 5X7 greeting card images. I know the gist of scanning but was wondering if someone could provide a more accurate testing methodology than just 'scan a neg and see how it looks' which is what I am doing right now.
I will have to order some wet-mount gear to fully test the BS option though

cheers
Steve

[Greg Blank]

I think in all fairness to the product you will want to at least try that approach, you may find that the Better Scanning carrier then exceeds the Epson holder. I personally have alway been curious to see if the BS Carriers improve my 120 film, but since I have moved away from 120 I haven't followed up. For 4x5 I have been happy enough doing scans with the Epson holder.

Since I don't print anything except color from my scans, and all my prints are 13x19 or smaller I have plenty of resolution. If I was going bigger I might want the little tweeking I might anticipate. Never the less I might just one day soon get the 120 holder.




No, so far I am just using a single setting for the entire holder, but I am checking focus over various parts of the neg.
This would be an obvious advantage of the BS holders though; the ability to 'level' the holder against a less than flat focus plane.

Steve

[Brian Ellis]

I use a UMax holder that has always worked well with my 4990. I don't know if they're still made and I don't know if they have any real advantages over the Epson holder. I bought mine (for about $30 IIRC many years ago) only because the Epson 4x5 holder developed cracks after a couple years of use. The UMax is made out of a heavy but somewhat pliable rubber-like material, which maybe allows it to fit the contours of the glass if there is one better than the Epson holder.

FWIW I think that fooling around with other holders and worrying about testing for focus is a little premature in your situation, where you haven't yet made a print to see how the Epson holder works. Mine worked fine until it started breaking which took several years of use.

[argos33]

I think scanning a negative and/or resolution target is fine - you can even use a sharp 35mm or medium format frame wet-mounted for tests. Although your not getting the full frame, for critical sharpness comparisons it can be helpful.

I wouldn't worry about it too much - for some scanners the adjustments make more of a difference than others. And unless your printing as large as possible it's going to look great regardless.

[Heroique]

...This is just dry-mounted, no doubt wet mounting would be a different issue. ...I’m prepared to concede at this stage that my testing procedure is not flawless and would like advice on how to fine tune my resolution/sharpness tests.

I enjoy super results w/ dry-mounted film on the 4990 – fast, clean, accurate.

Here’s a helpful photo from Doug Fisher’s excellent site to help illustrate.

Note that the film is taped taught on the underside (i.e., the anti-glare side) of the glass. Typically, the (rougher) emulsion side is taped against the anti-glare side of the glass. Good-bye Newton rings... :)

I use more than the 4 pieces of tape you see here. Usually, it’s 10 pieces for 4x5 film. If one tapes the film carefully, and tightly, the film won’t sag. One should apply a bit of artistry in taping the film to the glass; the method can make a difference. It takes just a little practice…

For people simply using a piece of store-bought glass (and not Doug Fisher’s holders), you can use various things to support the glass (and adjust its height) above the scanner’s surface – post-it note pads, pennies, etc. So another key concern is making sure the piece of glass is horizontally flush as possible.

Please come back and let us know your test results!

[SMBooth]

Heroique, I thought the practice was to tape the glossy side of the film to the ANR side and then the emulsion goes down facing the scanner, Why put the two textured sides of the glass and negative together?

[Ken Lee]

Tape - lots of tape - Exactly ! :)

[Gem Singer]

Both the emulsion and the base surfaces of color transparency film are usually smooth and glossy.

Some types of B&W film have a smooth emulsion surface, but many are lightly textured.

Ilford HP-5+ exhibits a dull finish on it's emulsion side.

[Heroique]

Heroique, I thought the practice was to tape the glossy side of the film to the ANR side and then the emulsion goes down facing the scanner, Why put the two textured sides of the glass and negative together?

Mainly, it gives me the best results, but it’s not the only way; however, what’s important to avoid is putting smooth surface against smooth surface:

Some people use the second piece of glass (in the photo above) in a simpler way. First, they lay the film directly onto the scanner glass, then put the piece of anti-glare glass directly on top of it. However, in this case, one should think very carefully about which film surface is facing up or down (because you don’t want smooth surface on smooth surface).

So, one would put the film’s emulsion side down on the smooth scanner glass (rough on smooth). This of course means the film’s smooth/shiny side is now facing up. Directly on top of this surface, you lay the second piece of glass – its anti-glare surface resting directly on the film’s up-facing smooth side (again, rough on smooth).

The best height for my 4990 is about 2mm above the scanner’s surface, so unless I’m doing a quick-and-dirty job, I’ll always dry-mount my film on the separate piece of glass, using a holder of my own design.

[Brian Ellis]

I use a UMax holder that has always worked well with my 4990. I don't know if they're still made and I don't know if they have any real advantages over the Epson holder. I bought mine (for about $30 IIRC many years ago) only because the Epson 4x5 holder developed cracks after a couple years of use. The UMax is made out of a heavy but somewhat pliable rubber-like material, which maybe allows it to fit the contour of the glass if there is one better than the Epson holder.

FWIW I think that fooling around with other holders and worrying about testing for focus is a little premature in your situation, where you haven't yet made a print to see how the Epson holder works. Mine worked fine until it started breaking which took several years of use.

[Professional]

When scanning with Epson V700/V750, do you put the emulsion side up or down?

[SteveH]

When scanning with Epson V700/V750, do you put the emulsion side up or down?

I had emulsion towards the glass but re-reading the instructions I think it should be the other way round:rolleyes:
Interesting to see how much of a difference it makes.

Steve

[Ben Syverson]

I had emulsion towards the glass but re-reading the instructions I think it should be the other way round:rolleyes:
Interesting to see how much of a difference it makes.
None.

[SteveH]

I use a UMax holder that has always worked well with my 4990. I don't know if they're still made and I don't know if they have any real advantages over the Epson holder. I bought mine (for about $30 IIRC many years ago) only because the Epson 4x5 holder developed cracks after a couple years of use. The UMax is made out of a heavy but somewhat pliable rubber-like material, which maybe allows it to fit the contours of the glass if there is one better than the Epson holder.

FWIW I think that fooling around with other holders and worrying about testing for focus is a little premature in your situation, where you haven't yet made a print to see how the Epson holder works. Mine worked fine until it started breaking which took several years of use.

Brian
you're right of course; if it doesn't show up in the print its not really an issue.
My concern is that I want to archive scan. i.e. I want to scan each image only once and then work from that file, not find out later that my scanning work flow has been inadequate.
My 3880 was sent to the wrong address so it will be a few more days before I get to really play.
I worked as a darkroom monkey for 15 years and got to know my trade pretty well but the new digital workflow is seeming too easy - a sure sign that I don't know my stuff.
i'm seeing a big learning curve ahead with photoshop layering and colour management but so far scanning has seemed a breeze and the ubiquitous praise for the BS holders suggests I am not being rigorous enough in my testing.
I am even starting to suspect my negs of poor sharpness (these eyes aint what they once was):( .
cheers
Steve