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PolarBear1973
17-Mar-2011, 05:55
I read somewhere that fiber prints should be washed for 60 minutes after leaving the fixer. Is this true? Someone told me that if I wash it 5 minutes in water, then 5 minutes in permawash, then another five minutes in water it would be sufficient.

Any help is appreciated

Thanks,
Brian

davemiller
17-Mar-2011, 07:22
Whilst the use of a wash aid can reduce over all washing time that which you mention seems much too short to me. I would stay with the 60 minutes minimum.

davemiller
17-Mar-2011, 07:31
If you want to explore the mechanics of print washing further this link (http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296#content_start) may help you.

Oren Grad
17-Mar-2011, 08:12
It's possible to get an adequate wash in much less than 60 minutes using the Ilford fixing sequence - look at the data sheet for any of the Ilford FB papers for details. But the required steps may or may not be compatible with the rest of your workflow.

More generally, the required washing time depends on many things - the paper, whether or not you're using a hardening fixer and how long you're fixing, which wash aid you're using and how long you're using it, possibly your water as well.

Regardless of whether you're following any particular product's instructions, if you want to be reasonably certain that your wash is adequate, you need to use a residual hypo test like this...

http://stores.photoformulary.com/Detail.bok?category=ALL&no=153

...to determine the effectiveness of your wash with your materials and methods under your darkroom conditions.

Leigh
17-Mar-2011, 08:46
The most important point is to not leave the print in the fixer too long. Use a rapid fixer and follow the instructions.

Follow that with a Permawash-based washing protocol and you'll be fine. Much shorter wash time than just water.

Make sure your wash actually works. Hypo is heavier than water, so the wash tray should drain through the bottom.

Use a residual hypo test as Oren mentioned. Make sure it works with the type of fixer you're using. There are different formulas.

- Leigh

Scott Walker
17-Mar-2011, 08:56
If you want to explore the mechanics of print washing further this link (http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296#content_start) may help you.

Great article Dave, thanks for sharing

Jim Burk
17-Mar-2011, 22:40
We are advised at school to have 7 minutes in the first fix, 7 minutes in the second fix, 20 minute wash, 3-5 minutes in Perma Wash, another 20 minutes of wash, squeegie and dry.

Vaughn
17-Mar-2011, 22:48
...Make sure your wash actually works. Hypo is heavier than water, so the wash tray should drain through the bottom...Leigh

I believe this has been completely debunked. A bottle of working strength fixer does not stratify when sitting for several days. Even the slightest water movement would also prevent the hypo for settling, if it actually had any tendency to do so.

Oren Grad
18-Mar-2011, 07:57
I believe this has been completely debunked. A bottle of working strength fixer does not stratify when sitting for several days. Even the slightest water movement would also prevent the hypo for settling, if it actually had any tendency to do so.

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296&garpg=4

CG
18-Mar-2011, 15:47
Permawash will reduce wash times dramatically with fiber prints, as will any other sulfite based wash aid. There are many wash aids on the market:

Arista Hypo Wash
Clayton Archival Wash
Fotospeed WA50
Heico Permawash
Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent
Zonal Pro Archival Wash Aid
and many more...

And for that matter you can mix your own with sodium sulfite in a jiffy. Though I do like the convenience of liquid concentrates.

They all work pretty much the same. It doesn't matter which you use. Their sulfites help the washing process and you get washing that's better and faster. But none of them is magical. If you use the shortest times listed by the most optimistic mfr., you may not get as good washing as you think.

I think Permawash's published times are a bit short. Maybe they will work when every other part of the process is perfect, but if your fix was a little old or you fixed a little too long or or or... Better to overdo the wash aid and final wash times a little to be sure of good processing. Use fresh wash aid. Don't keep it around forever or use it on too much paper. I dump mine too early and never regret it. Better to waste a little cheap solution than to find out that prints are failing prematurely. I use published times on the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent package or their darkroom dataguide books with any of the wash aids since Kodak tends towards giving a bit extra for safety.

SamReeves
19-Mar-2011, 09:45
I've been doing the 5-5-5 Permawash method for quite a while. As long as your using the rapid fix and having short fixing times, it should not be an issue.