What Movement to Use?

[Bob Kerner]

I'm still learning how to properly apply my 4x5s movements, so forgive the simplicity of this question but it's something I don't see addressed in my LF book.

What movements should be applied to two objects-foreground and background- in the same plane of focus? For example, I'm composing something through a wrought iron fence, where the main subject is about 20 feet away and the fence is about 3 feet away. I'd like both the subject and the fence to be sharp. 135mm f5.6 lens.

How would you use the camera movements to produce this shot?

I shot it 3 ways and am waiting for the film to come back. First, focused about a third of the way into the scene and stopped down. Second, focused only on the main subject. Third, tried the "focus on the far, tilt for the near" method but couldn't get them both in focus no matter how patiently I went back and forth with the tilt and focus.

Am I at least close to using the correct method?
Thank you in advance.

[Leigh]

First, focused about a third of the way into the scene and stopped down.
Hi Bob,

That's the proper way to get optimum depth of field.

However, You can't get both subjects in focus at the distances you gave, even at f/64.

Try using the on-line DoF calculator at http://dofmaster.com/dofjs.html to see what you can expect.

The only way to do this is to move back further from the fence, so the difference in distance is a smaller percentage. You can always crop the final image when you print it.

There are no movements that will improve the results. This is a DoF problem.


- Leigh

[Bob Kerner]

Hi Bob,

That's the proper way to get optimum depth of field.

However, You can't get both subjects in focus at the distances you gave, even at f/64.

Try using the on-line DoF calculator at http://dofmaster.com/dofjs.html to see what you can expect.

The only way to do this is to move back further from the fence, so the difference in distance is a smaller percentage. You can always crop the final image when you print it.

There are no movements that will improve the results. This is a DoF problem.


- Leigh


Duh! I'm a numnutz. Forgot my basic DOF principles. And I even have an app for that on the phone, I think. I'm finding that I can so easily get caught up working the movements, that I forget the obvious limitations.

Thanks

[Frank Petronio]

What movements should be applied to two objects-foreground and background- in the same plane of focus? For example, I'm composing something through a wrought iron fence, where the main subject is about 20 feet away and the fence is about 3 feet away. I'd like both the subject and the fence to be sharp.

with....


Third, tried the "focus on the far, tilt for the near" method but couldn't get them both in focus no matter how patiently I went back and forth with the tilt and focus.

This is so conceptually wrong that you need to go back and start over with view camera movements altogether.

Sorry Bob!

[kev curry]

You should spend some time reading and understanding this article...
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/fstop.html

[Bob Kerner]

with....



This is so conceptually wrong that you need to go back and start over with view camera movements altogether.

Sorry Bob!

No need to apologize. I'm confessing ignorance and asking for help. I have a book and most of the examples are about how to get two sides of a cereal box in focus or how to correct for convergence when shooting the Empire State building.

The focus far/tilt near comes right out of Bruce Barlow's Finely Focused e-book. Obviously from your comment, I'm either misinterpreting it or applying it incorrectly.

Where should I start over?

[Frank Petronio]

You can get something near and far in focus but there has to be separation between them. An example would be Ansel Adams' rock in the foreground and distant mountains on the horizon both being in focus. There was enough room - maybe half the frame - for the front standard to tilt forward (or the rear to tilt backwards = same effect) so that he could find the right combination of tilt and focusing to get both sharp at the same time.

However if the mountains and horizon were lower in the frame, and immediately behind the foreground rock, there is no combination of tilt and focus to bring both into sharpness. It would simply be a matter of depth-of-field, same as a small format camera.

The classic view camera books explain this well I think (Ansel Adams, The Camera)(Jim Stone, View Camera Whatever...)(Steve Simmons, View Camera Cough Cough)... perhaps try thinking of it from a side view and make a little sketch?

[Nathan Potter]

Bob, under conditions where the near and far subjects can fall into a single plane projecting out from the camera, tilt or swing can be utilized to bring both near and far into focus even at large apertures, (Schiempflug technique). However this technique fails when parts of the near and far objects project out of that single plane (most always the case). Under these conditions you'll need to use DOF technique (smaller apertures) to get near and far both in focus.

I'm guessing as you describe your situation and lens you will not have enough depth of field even at minimum aperture to get near and far in focus. You would need to resort to a much smaller focal length lens (maybe a 75 mm) at minimum aperture. However such a wide angle will change your perspective even though achieving the desired result of near and far in focus (near will be much larger and the far object will be much more diminutive in the background).

Many tradeoffs in this framing game. Skillful LF workers utilize a combination of Schiempflug, swings and tilts, aperture control together, in order to manage focus over the whole frame and eventually this all becomes second nature - sort of like driving a shift vehicle - or even having sex.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Brian C. Miller]

The Principles of View Camera Focus, by Harold Merklinger (pdf) (http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/VuCamTxt.pdf)

Bob, the basic problem is that you are shooting through a fence. You can get everything in focus with a pinhole, but there's no combination of swing and tilt that you can use for this problem.

If you want to get the ground in focus as well as the far object, then the Scheimpflug rule will work just fine. But to get the fence and the far object in focus, you need a really tiny apeture, like a pinhole.

If I were shooting something framed by two trees (and limbs) then I would have the same problem. I might get the foreground and the object in focus, one of the trees in focus, or just the distant object in focus. But I couldn't get them all in focus without using a tiny apeture.

[Bob Kerner]

Thank you all. It seems (retrospectively) that I was so eager to use the movements, that I overlooked the most basic composition element, and that was being too damn close to the fence. Or shooting through the fence in the first place.

Oddly enough, after I attempted that shot, I returned to my hotel room and realized that very same picture was hanging in my room. Subliminal stuff going on in New Orleans.

The forum is a gold mine of help for novices like me and I really appreciate everyone's input. Wish I had this support in '92 when I first tried LF. I might have been good at it buy now.

[Bill_1856]

DOF: 3' - 29' focus 5'6" @ f:64.

[Frank Petronio]

Pre-popular internet it was really difficult to find information, see cameras, etc. unless you had a real-world expert friend or took a course.

What's most valuable is that everyone explains things a bit differently and there are also some wrong answers thrown into the mix, so I think you learn better this way.

[Leigh]

DOF: 3' - 29' focus 5'6" @ f:64.
According to DoFMaster 5' 6" @ f/64 yields limits of 3.6' and 12.5'.

Did you use the right focal length (135mm) for your calculations?

- Leigh

ref: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

[Bill_1856]

According to DoFMaster 5' 6" @ f/64 yields limits of 3.6' and 12.5'.

Did you use the right focal length (135mm) for your calculations?

- Leigh

ref: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Bob Atkins DoF chart for 4x5, with CoC = 150 microns. (Of course, I don't believe that I've ever had a 135mm lens which stops down to a marked f:64.)

[Leigh]

Bob Atkins DoF chart for 4x5, with CoC = 150 microns.
If you make the CoC large enough you can get whatever DoF you want.

DoFMaster uses a CoC of 100 microns for 4x5 film.


I don't believe that I've ever had a 135mm lens which stops down to a marked f:64.
One from each of the major manufacturers (all go down to a marked f/64 in Copal #0 shutters):

Schneider Apo-Symmar 135/5.6
Nikon Nikkor-W 135/5.6
Rodenstock Sironar-N 135/5.6
Fuji Fujinon-CMW 135/5.6

There may be others. That was just a quick pass through my datasheets.

- Leigh