Need Death Valley Advice re Racetrack & Saline Valley [Archive]

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Richard K.

22-Dec-2010, 11:14

I will be in Death Valley early February, domiciled in Furnace Creek. My questions:

Can I see Scotty's Castle AND the Racetrack in a one day trip (I'll start EARLY!)?

Can I get to Saline Valley for a few hours and back in another long day? What route do I take?

Do I need 4WD?

Thank you!! :D

Kevin Crisp

22-Dec-2010, 11:50

Yes on the castle and the racetrack. It is a ways and you kind of feel like you are beating up a non-4x4 without high clearance due to sometimes severe and constant wash-boarding but the road is generally passable and you can see both plus the Ubehebe crater on the way. There is a cool mine with a tramway and a few buildings near the racetrack.

I've done this drive many times in an Explorer with stiff shocks and never needed to use 4x4. All this can change in an hour; check with the park service since they put out daily listings of where you can go and what you should drive if you are going to do it. With this rain (24" and counting in the San Bernardino Mtns) the road might not be passable. Some parts of the road can turn into a clay-based mud that is impossible to drive through and even though it is "Death Valley" the quantities of water that can suddenly deluge a roadway are impressive.

I've only approached the Saline Valley from Panama Springs (in and out) and, again, I never actually had to engage the 4X4 for more than about a minute but it was a slow, rocky crawl for a lot of miles. You really get tossed around no matter how slowly you go. I wouldn't attempt it without AT tires and high clearance. This is the road taken by the rescue ambulance in this WWII story:

http://www.qnet.com/~carcomm/wreck29.htm

I took two spares just in case. No way would I attempt that with a rental car. A 2x2 truck with a shovel and an assistant, maybe. I always take a moving blanket which does wonders under the back wheels when stuck in sand. I suggest you travel with someone in another vehicle since it can take a long, long time for help to come by.

In my roughly ten trips to the Saline valley I've had to rescue/assist somebody twice. Once a guy in a 2x2 pickup saw the Panamint Dunes and tried to get there on a road that doesn't actually go there, driving down toward the visible dunes from the road into the Saline Valley. He eventually got wedged in a ravine. I saw his "help me!" note up on the "main" road and drove down to find him and pulled him out with a pull strap. The other time I came across a guy on a dirt bike, out of water and gas. I know it is possible to drive by the racetrack and go on to Saline Valley but I haven't actually done it so can't comment. That would be a long, long day if you were going to come back out again the same day.

If you haven't been before, and only have three days or so, I think I wouldn't necessarily put the Saline Valley on my immediate "to do" list, though obviously I like it. There are so many other interesting places you can drive to that are passable, like Keeler, Darwin, Rhyolite, etc.

dsphotog

22-Dec-2010, 11:52

Hi Richard,
I've done Scotty's Castle & Racetack in one day, the road to Racetrack Playa is a rough graded washboard with a few sandy spots where a rental car could get stuck.
I drove a stock height 4wd Suburban, & didn't need to use 4wd. While we were shooting, to our amazement, another photog. drove up in a compact rental car.
The key to driving in sand is maintaining momentum.
As Kevin said, things change rapidly, check conditions before using any roads in DV.

Merg Ross

22-Dec-2010, 12:21

If you haven't been before, and only have three days or so, I think I wouldn't necessarily put the Saline Valley on my immediate "to do" list, though obviously I like it. There are so many other interesting places you can drive to that are passable, like Keeler, Darwin, Rhyolite, etc.

I agree with this. Excellent report.

Ivan J. Eberle

22-Dec-2010, 12:24

With this rain (24" and counting in the San Bernardino Mtns) the road might not be passable. Some parts of the road can turn into a clay-based mud that is impossible to drive through and even though it is "Death Valley" the quantities of water that can suddenly deluge a roadway are impressive.
.

"Impressive" is understatement, today!

Kevin Crisp

22-Dec-2010, 12:28

Titus Canyon on the way back from Rhyolite too. I like the Armagosa Dunes that are reasonably close to Rhyolite although when you drive in, you have to decide when it is sandy enough to park and walk. Frequently I see the vehicles of those who went a little too far.

Twenty Mule Team Canyon is close to the hotel and very interesting. Greenwood Valley petroglyphs are a favorite but you have to hike about 1.5 miles in now. And of course you need to stand with all the other photographers at Zabriski Point just once.

Kevin Crisp

22-Dec-2010, 12:31

I tried driving in one February from Ridgecrest and the road to Trona was buried under a mud flow. In the park it was obvious there had been water flowing recently 1 to 2 feet deep in the draws.

NAOA has just reminded us that despite recent events this is going to be a dry winter.

Richard K.

22-Dec-2010, 12:42

Jim Galli

22-Dec-2010, 13:11

I am very appreciative of the replies thus far. Thank you. I guess I better not try to get to Saline Valley Road from the Racetrack, then! Has anyone done THAT? :eek:

Can I get to Aguerreberry Point in a rental?

Death Valley Phil does it with his Jeep Rubicon in good weather. Anytime we're on the racetrack road and some fool flies past us in a shiny sedan we always laugh and look at each other and say 'rental car'. I think Aguerreberry point is paved all the way up.

Kevin Crisp

22-Dec-2010, 13:16

I've seen lots and lots of rental cars do it. There is one narrow right hand turn that is in the shade and it climbs a bit. It can get icy in there and sometimes light snow lingers, otherwise it shouldn't be a problem. Even if you can't go on you can go back since it is downhill.

Go slowly on the dirt roads, the danger is in the medium sized sharp rocks that can flip up and get the tire through the sidewall. Be sure to check out the mining camp on your right on the way in. I forget the name, Harris Camp or something like that.

Dante's View (basically Agueberry Point from the other side of the valley) is well worth the trip. Biggest crowd I've seen at Agueberry was a Wisner workshop.

Kevin Crisp

22-Dec-2010, 13:30

Here's the camp I was thinking of:

http://digital-desert.com/aguereberry-camp/

A little bit of it disappears every time I stop by. There was a water tank made from an aluminum sea plane float but somebody decided they had to recyle that...

Richard K.

22-Dec-2010, 13:41

I've seen lots and lots of rental cars do it.

You mean go over the hill ( :rolleyes: :D !!) from the Racetrack onto Saline Valley Road?

Kevin Crisp

22-Dec-2010, 14:37

No, I was answering the question about whether the drive to Agueberry (never can spell that) Point was doable in a rental car. It is most definitely not paved unless this happened in the last 9 months, neither is the road to Skidoo (which is very similar and also branches off the same paved highway) and takes you to the former Skidoo townsite with an impressive stamp mill they are now trying to brace up to stop from falling over.

And for the 'go for it, it is just a rental' crowd, the recently solved 13 year mystery disappearance of 4 tourists is worth keeping in mind. February isn't summer, but still, you have to respect the desert -- always.

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20091114-23273.html

I'm leaning toward getting one of those "spot" devices so that my own long distance solo trips in Death Valley won't be quite so totally idiotic as they are now.

Harley Goldman

22-Dec-2010, 16:12

I would recommend going slow on the road to the Racetrack. I have seen many vehicles with flat tires, including 4x4's with off road tires. I also drove past a car with a punched oil pan. It is totally doable in a passenger car, but regardless of vehicle, I recommend taking your time.

Drew Wiley

22-Dec-2010, 16:47

Richard, I once broke down on the old road between the Racetrack and Saline, and its a very interesting story how I got out, which I won't relate here. The locals had
quite a few macabre stories about people found dead along that track from time to time. The current wave of storms is significant, so I would hope anyone venturing that direction would call about road conditions in advance. The Agueberry (sp?) viewpoint road isn't too rough, but snowy conditions might mandate 4WD, if open at
all. Flashflood damage somewhere is almost inevitable this winter.

Drew Wiley

22-Dec-2010, 16:54

Kevin - I was at that mining camp maybe three years ago in Feb. Still some interesting things left. As I recall, it's not very far along the Aug-whatever-bery road, just off its intersection from the Wildrose road, well before the muddier sections leading to the overlook itself.

Kevin Crisp

22-Dec-2010, 17:02

The camp is just five minutes from the paved road.

Michael Gordon

23-Dec-2010, 09:45

I've spent a considerable amount of time in DVNP and have driven all the roads, paved and rugged 4WD. My opinion? If you're staying in Furnace Creek and need to return there, trying to cram more than one destination into a day will result in a rather shallow experience but lots of miles driven.

Saline Valley is not a drive-by experience; do it right and spend several days there and camp. There is no other way to properly experience it. North Pass and South Pass can be closed to snow and ice even in Feb, so you best check road conditions before heading to Saline. Do not attempt Steel Pass or Lippincott Mine Rd without 4WD and sufficient experience.

I just drove Lippincott Road less than one week ago (connects Racetrack to Saline Valley). It is in excellent condition at the moment, but things can change quickly. I would not attempt it without sufficient off-road experience and a 4WD (and possible even a second vehicle as support).

Days are still somewhat short in Feb, and the drive from Furnace Ck to Racetrack is 2+ hours at a minimum (4WD with aired-down tires) and as much as 4+ hours one way in an lesser vehicle with fully inflated tires. Do you really want to drive at least 4+ hours RT and have only a short stay at The Racetrack? I recommend camping there, south of the playa.

I know lots of folks are averse to camping, but one MUST camp in DVNP to experience it properly and to be where you want to be in the best light. Stovepipe and Furnace Creek are park central, but SO FAR from everything outside Death Valley proper.

Good luck, Richard.

SocalAstro

23-Dec-2010, 11:28

I agree with what others have said with respect to camping near the racetrack.

Last year I found a secluded camp side about 700feet above the RT Playa and had the place to myself.

Getting the RT Playa from Saline Valley road requires a 4WD for sure. If coming from within the park (furnace creek etc) you just have to endure a rough road that will shake and rattle all sort of things loose in a car :-)

Here are some pics from my "private" campsite above the RT Playa.

Cheers,
Leon

Jeffrey Sipress

23-Dec-2010, 12:15

Michael Gordon is correct on all counts. I, too, go there all the time, and have driven nearly all the off road routes. Sure you CAN go from Stovepipe or Furnace creek to the racetrack and back in a day, but why would you? You'll have no time to enjoy the place! Keep in mind that the best time (typically) to shoot the racetrack is the late afternoon just before the shadow overtakes the playa. Then it gets cold fast. Camping there is fabulously remote and the night hiking in the area is a lot of fun.

Richard K.

23-Dec-2010, 15:37

Leon, Jeffrey and Michael;

Thank you very much for your salient advice re Saline Valley and the Racetrack. I definitely need to move closer so that I can camp here some time!

BTW, when you camp, do you actually pitch a tent? I would be inclined to clear the back half of my 4x4 and pitch a mattress in and camp that way! Hell, if it meant getting good evening and then good morning light and not driving back in the dark, I would "camp" by sleeping on the back seat of the rental even though my motel room is paid for!! Is this at all feasible and safe to do?

Kevin Crisp

23-Dec-2010, 17:06

And then sometimes weather can limit your options....

•Artists Drive - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Badwater Road (CA Hwy 178) - Open, use caution due to standing water and flood debris.
•Big Pine Road - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Dante's View Road - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Devil's Golf Course Road - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Eureka Valley Road (north and south) - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Harry Wade Road - Open, but has not been checked; high-clearance 4WD recommended due to deep sand.
•Hunter Mountain Road - Open, but has not been checked; 4WD and snow chains recommended.
•Keane Wonder Mine Road - CLOSED; road and mining area closed to all entry due to safety hazards.
•Mustard Canyon Road - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Racetrack Valley Road - Open, but has not been checked; The playa is wet, DO NOT walk on it and leave footprints.
•Saline Valley Road (North Pass) - CLOSED due to flood damage and snow.
•Saline Valley Road (South Pass) - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Titus Canyon Road - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Twenty Mule Team Canyon Road - CLOSED due to flood damage.
•Lower Wildrose Canyon Road - Open, use caution due to flood amage.
•Upper Wildrose Road - CLOSED 1/2 miles below Charcoal Kilns; Mahogany Flat Road currently not accessible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Drew Wiley

23-Dec-2010, 17:38

Another interesting feature at the north end of the park on the way to the Racetrack
is Ubehebe Crater. As others have noted, Death Valley is a big place from one end
to the other; and I'd classify Saline Valley as an excursion by itself - one can get
trapped back there a couple weeks at a time due to snow. Extra food,water, gas, spare tires (and extra film) would seem essential. But given this latest flurry of very serious storms, any 4WD road would seem to warrant questioning. And more rough
weather is on the way!

Michael Gordon

23-Dec-2010, 17:43

Richard: I NEVER pitch a tent. Mostly because I hate taking the time to set up and tear down, but also because it mostly never rains enough in California to bother (until now :eek:)

I was in Saline Valley for a couple of nights just a week ago. One night around 1230am, the rain began gently tapping me awake. I simply moved into the back of my (shell-covered) truck and went back to sleep. No biggie.

Feasible and safe? Absolutely. Way safer than Etobicoke ;) I've NEVER had trouble any in ANY backcountry, and fewer humans generally equals less likelihood of trouble. I'd feel not near as safe hanging around Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells...

Richard K.

23-Dec-2010, 21:06

Merg Ross

23-Dec-2010, 21:46

Holy *h*t !! I sure hope things get better by end of Jan. or maybe I should cancel DV and go South to Organ Pipe etc.??!!

Not necessarily. Death Valley is a big place. Just go where you can safely, and not plan long days on the road. You will find plenty of accessible areas, just not all.

It has often been mentioned what a wonderful place this forum is for information on the medium of photography, and the related technical aspects. This particular thread, although unrelated specifically to photography, is full of factual and pertinent information on the topic. For one who has spent decades past in these areas, I am very impressed with the responses.

Richard, take your trip, and heed the good advice. You will be fine, and will have a terrific experience. Just be aware of the behavior of nature.

Have a terrific trip!

Richard K.

23-Dec-2010, 22:04

Richard, take your trip

I will.

and heed the good advice.

I will!

You will be fine, and will have a terrific experience. Just be aware of the behavior of nature. Have a terrific trip!

I will!! Thanks Merg. Sincere thanks also to all who provided the exceptional advice in this thread!

tgtaylor

24-Dec-2010, 08:38

Winter is the best time for a photography road trip in the west. I've been doing mine with a small compact low-clearance Toyota Echo. If a weather system is not bearing down and the car can do it, I go for it. Before crossing any streams I walk across them to make damn sure that I'm not going to get stuck in the middle. It's usually a long walk back to the road and a tow truck is going to cost big time!

Richard Raymond

24-Dec-2010, 19:18

Was in the Valley today. Came in from Shoshone and the south passes. Still water in the roads but passable. The tide is going out at Badwater but still plenty of opportunity to get a kayak in. Plenty of water for reflections of Telescope peak off Morman Point. All the flats have swollen and are rough to walk. Can walk down to Devil's Golf Course. Golden Canyon is open. Most everything else is closed to vehicles. More rain expected next weekend. If this keeps up there should be a good flower show this spring.
Ric

Jeffrey Sipress

24-Dec-2010, 21:54

SocalAstro

25-Dec-2010, 10:46

I'm heading to DV the morning of the 25th (tomorrow) for four days. Most of my canyon hideaways for camping are inaccessable now. Still, I'm hoping to catch some good light and the unexpected magic that can just happen to you. One thing about nature photography, you get what's there when you're there!

Jeffery,

I will be heading out there tomorrow (the 26th) myself; maybe we'll see each other while out there. Im driving a silver G500 so look for me :-)

Cheers,
Leon

Richard K.

25-Dec-2010, 12:03

Jeffrey and Leon, please let us (me!) know how you made out!! Thanks!

generubin

25-Dec-2010, 20:08

About Saline Valley this coming week. I have been going to Saline for over 25 years, often during time of snow. If you call the Park Service, they will always tell you the Saline Valley roads are closed and impassable. They figure, if you are asking, you are inexperienced enough that they do not want to go after you. Lippincott Road is only 4,000 feet at highest, rarely has snow. It is a very serious 4WD road however. Most people access by the South Pass. South Pass is a graded road that does go over a 7,000 foot pass. This road under good weather and conditions is passable in a sedan. During times of storms you would want a 4WD AND YOU MUST BRING CHAINS. I have a 4WD Dodge Diesel, I bring chains for front and rear. There are many 2wd high clearance vehicles which do fine as long as they have chains. The 4wd vehicles with no chains are worse off than the 2wd with chains.

I will be heading into Saline this 28th with another vehicle via the South Pass. There is actually less snow this winter than most as the temps of this storm has been warmer than usual. As usual, we'll probably be saving the butts of some lost souls stuck in mud or ice in a rental vehicle. Me, I'll be nice and warm at night, just bought the photographer's dream from this nice fellow, check out his website: http://jayaronowcampersales.com/

If any of you make it into Saline, I'll be at the camp where we are jammin' fiddles, mandolins and guitars. Come by and say "Hello"

First pics below are from Saline Valley South Pass last February. Lat pic is my nice warm new toy.

Gene

SocalAstro

31-Dec-2010, 09:59

Jeffrey and Leon, please let us (me!) know how you made out!! Thanks!

Richard,

I got back late wednesday night from DV. The weather was great. I spent one night out the racetrack Playa and it got down to 27F.

The road to the Playa from inside the park (27 miles) was dry and not too rough. The Playa itself was dry and you could walk on it but it appears to have been wet just a week earlier as I saw some footprints on it that went out about 30-40 feet from the entrance point.

Titus Canyon road was closed most of the time. It was open on Tuesday but closed again on Wednesday due to another storm that appeared to be coming but never materialized.

Lots of the roads (Artists Drive and Devil's Golf Course) were closed due to flooding but were opened up again by Wednesday.

There was quite a bit of water at Badwater Basin which made for some nice reflections.

Overall, I would say take your chances and go out there; There are lots of things to see even if some of the roads are closed off.

I never made it out to Saline Valley road since my spare tire had a slow leak in it and I didn't want to risk getting a flat out there.

Here's a composite shot I took from the Playa (6:30PM-1:00AM) with a Canon 5D2. I took the same shot on 4x5 but it'll be a couple of weeks before I develop E6 :-)

Cheers,
Leon

Richard K.

31-Dec-2010, 10:05

Thanks for the report, Leon. When you say 27 miles to the RaceTrack, that's from where to where? Was it very washboardy? Any idea if Aguerreberry Point was accessible?

SocalAstro

31-Dec-2010, 10:26

Thanks for the report, Leon. When you say 27 miles to the RaceTrack, that's from where to where? Was it very washboardy? Any idea if Aguerreberry Point was accessible?

The 27 miles is from the Ubehebe Crater. It's about 21 miles to Teakettle Junction and another 6 miles to the Playa.

The road was OK overall Some parts were washboard-y but long stretches of it were smooth. I think It could be done in about 90 minutes or so.

Augerreberry Point was open. Wildrose Road to the Charcoal Kilns was open as well, but had deep snow 100-200 ft from the Kilns so you had to walk the last few 100 ft.

-Leon