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View Full Version : KB Canham Comes Through - 8x10 T Max Available



Michael Kadillak
16-Dec-2010, 15:13
Today Keith Canham made a post on his website that he has received permission from Kodak to offer 8x10 T Max 100 and T Max 400 as a special order in 10 sheet boxes. Keith is also offering a 10% discount for orders that brings down the unit cost very favorably. Yes, this is a special order with a 200 box minimum order but relatively speaking that is very consistent with how Kodak has dealt with this issue previously.

Kodak can cut costs by producing this film as the need arrises and not maintaining year round production activities so we have a window of opportunity to stand up and be counted.

If you have any questions please contact Keith.

Thanks and please pass the word to everyone that shoots 8x10 T Max.

Merry Christmas!

SW Rick
16-Dec-2010, 15:16
Good news! Now we'll see if 200 boxes are ordered.

Jan Pedersen
16-Dec-2010, 15:22
At 69$ per 10 sheet box i think it will take a long time to fill the order!

Michael Kadillak
16-Dec-2010, 16:07
At 69$ per 10 sheet box i think it will take a long time to fill the order!

With the 10% discount it comes down to $62 per box.

I contend that if this is "your" film and it goes from being discontinued to available via Special Order at not a significant increase in costs you jump at the possibility.

If you have not discovered the marvel of this film (best reciprocity correction in the market, impeccable manufacturing standards along with the ability to build usable film density equal to the moon), you don't know what you are missing.

I also recognize the reality that for some film costs are a mountain that is very challenging to climb particularly in this economy. In a perfect world we would acquire the best film possible for our "vision". All I can say is it is what it is.

I only hope that there are enough 8x10 T Max users out there to make this work. To lose access to this quality emulsion in this fine format would be a crying shame. I know that I am going to step up.

Daniel Stone
16-Dec-2010, 17:07
Michael,

you shoot 8x20 as well don't you? I know there's got to be some others on here interested in 8x10 TMY2, would Kodak do that in addition to the 8x10 TMY2? Same run, just cut some into the 8x20 format?

I don't shoot it, but just an idea... Kinda like Ilford, they cut it from the master roll into various sizes....

-Dan

Ken Lee
16-Dec-2010, 17:12
With the 10% discount it comes down to $62 per box.

Is that $6.20 per sheet ?

Daniel Stone
16-Dec-2010, 17:16
With the 10% discount it comes down to $62 per box.

Is that $6.20 per sheet ?


plus shipping :o

-Dan

Frank Petronio
16-Dec-2010, 17:44
Just for perspective....

Portra 400NC = $99.99/10

TXP = $54.95/10

B&H prices before taxes and shipping.

Ilford HP5 = $78.95/25 or $3.16 per is about half the price of TMY.

But processing costs remain the same, as well as other equipment, travel, etc. so the difference between using it or the film you want to use is only $3 a sheet.

John Bowen
16-Dec-2010, 18:21
When taking a photo safari, the following costs are incurred:
Gasoline $0.25/mile
Tolls $50/trip
Meals $20-$50/day
Rooms $50-$200/day
Film $72/day ($6/sheet x 12 sheets)
Chemicals $10/day for film and paper developers and fix.
Photo Paper Figure 1/5 of the film cost to proof the negatives $15/day
Sometimes Workshop tuitions $400-$600

Film (even at $6/sheet) is still less than 1/4 of the total cost. I think I'll spring for the $6.20/sheet TMY.

BUT, it sure makes the stuff I bought last week for $5.40/sheet (including shipping) and the stuff I purchased for $3/sheet back in 2007 look like bargains!

The only thing worse than spending $6.20/sheet is waking up one day to find it is unavailable. It will never be cheaper or more available than it is now, so stock up while you can.

Brian C. Miller
16-Dec-2010, 19:04
And the photographs you make: priceless!
(Ahhh, how did a moth get on the film?)
(Is that my thumb there?)
(Uhh, reciprocity, right...)
(Oh, move the f/stop the other way...)
(Angels? No.... ah, nuts, not a light leak!)
(Stupid wind!)
(Ow ow ow ow! Tripod leg spikes and Birkenstocks do not mix!!! Owweeee!)

Allen in Montreal
16-Dec-2010, 19:33
At 69$ per 10 sheet box i think it will take a long time to fill the order!

The "nay sayers" win the point.

First we lost 50 sheet boxes
Now it is prepaid special order.

At 7 dollars a sheet before Mr. Canham's offer to kick in a 10 percent discount it is a massive increase in a short period as Kodak maneuvers themselves in to a risk free higher margin production run position on emulsions they feel they have a strangle hold on.

Boys, at least call a joker a joker, we have had a stick poked into our eye and there is little most of us can do about it. Lets just stop playing nice and stop touting the line we are Blessed by Farther Yellow for making the special run for us.

They are wetting themselves laughing at the thought of how the ledgers will be looking soon.

But they forgot one AddSum in the ledger.

=sum(TMY/HP5) :mad: :mad:

As a side note, I blame Jim Kitchen for some of my anger with Kodak! :D
I gave up on them and then he published all his amazing data on TMY in X-tol, luring me back in to buy some Yellow again. Damn you Jim! :)

Nathan Potter
16-Dec-2010, 19:41
John, you hit the nail on the head. For most of my extended road trips the cost of the film is almost negligible. Gas, car wear and tear, lodgings and food are the killer - not to mention the shrink for the wife when we return.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Chris Strobel
16-Dec-2010, 19:42
And the photographs you make: priceless!
(Ahhh, how did a moth get on the film?)
(Is that my thumb there?)
(Uhh, reciprocity, right...)
(Oh, move the f/stop the other way...)
(Angels? No.... ah, nuts, not a light leak!)
(Stupid wind!)
(Ow ow ow ow! Tripod leg spikes and Birkenstocks do not mix!!! Owweeee!)

Lol, or how about I better make a second exposure to correct development in case the first one doesn't come out right, but the first one always does so you don't need the second sheet after all.:D

jp
16-Dec-2010, 19:44
This is getting me thinking about starting to hoard some film, at least to get a buffer between batch orders like this, and perhaps to hedge against future price increases or discontinuation.

How long can 400 speed film be kept with no fogging in the freezer? I was thinking of getting some boxes of film and wrapping them in lead flashing and putting them in the freezer. But then I thought bare lead mixed with food maybe isn't such a great idea. Then I thought about perhaps a lead vest like used in radiography, and read they are made of lead wool, which sounds even worse than solid lead to be putting in food storage. Maybe I'll wrap the film in lead and then ziplock bag it. I could get a second chest freezer, but I'm afraid the electricity costs might eat up any potential benefit from hedging my film supply

Michael Kadillak
16-Dec-2010, 19:51
When taking a photo safari, the following costs are incurred:
Gasoline $0.25/mile
Tolls $50/trip
Meals $20-$50/day
Rooms $50-$200/day
Film $72/day ($6/sheet x 12 sheets)
Chemicals $10/day for film and paper developers and fix.
Photo Paper Figure 1/5 of the film cost to proof the negatives $15/day
Sometimes Workshop tuitions $400-$600

Film (even at $6/sheet) is still less than 1/4 of the total cost. I think I'll spring for the $6.20/sheet TMY.

BUT, it sure makes the stuff I bought last week for $5.40/sheet (including shipping) and the stuff I purchased for $3/sheet back in 2007 look like bargains!

The only thing worse than spending $6.20/sheet is waking up one day to find it is unavailable. It will never be cheaper or more available than it is now, so stock up while you can.

That is how I see it John.

Super XX in ULF sizes was exorbitantly expensive per unit in the late 1980's but somehow people that felt that they wanted to have this film as a vehicle to express themselves optimally found a way to make it work. Where there is a will, there is always a way. I know that I just need to get on the phone and close some additional deals. No biggie.

John Bowen
16-Dec-2010, 19:52
One of the benefits of TMY is it's ability to build density. I doubt a little fog will have more than a negligable impact. Just print through it.

With other films, that don't build density as well, the fog might cause some major issues.

Drew Wiley
16-Dec-2010, 19:54
The expiration date on the TMY I just got is still three years away at shelf temp. Frozen it should be longer, and TMX should be even longer than that. But I don't plan
to keep more than a 3 yr supply OH anyway. In other words, I'd be game for joining
a batch order 2 yr from now.

Michael Kadillak
16-Dec-2010, 19:55
This is getting me thinking about starting to hoard some film, at least to get a buffer between batch orders like this, and perhaps to hedge against future price increases or discontinuation.

How long can 400 speed film be kept with no fogging in the freezer? I was thinking of getting some boxes of film and wrapping them in lead flashing and putting them in the freezer. But then I thought bare lead mixed with food maybe isn't such a great idea. Then I thought about perhaps a lead vest like used in radiography, and read they are made of lead wool, which sounds even worse than solid lead to be putting in food storage. Maybe I'll wrap the film in lead and then ziplock bag it. I could get a second chest freezer, but I'm afraid the electricity costs might eat up any potential benefit from hedging my film supply

I have had TMY on ice for about five years - no problem. TMX will last even longer.

Michael Kadillak
16-Dec-2010, 20:01
With the 10% discount it comes down to $62 per box.

Is that $6.20 per sheet ?

Yes sir. The film is in fact that good.

If that puts your shorts in a knot, while you are sitting down ask someone that shoots 20x24 what they are paying for sheet film if they can find it?

Welcome to a niche market......

Ben Syverson
16-Dec-2010, 20:19
Sounds totally reasonable to me... I'm used to $10/sheet with 400 NC.

If you really like this film that much more than the competition, $6-7 per sheet is absolutely nothing.

jeroldharter
16-Dec-2010, 20:21
Someone mentioned that the Kodak special orders were packed in different boxes and prone to dust. Does anyone know if the 8x10 films will be packed in the same yellow box that we are used to? I don't want to pony up for a bunch of dusty film.

As an aside, I know the line that anyone who knows what he is doing can use any film, etc. So the likely, cheaper, more available alternative to TMY is HP5. Does anyone prefer HP5 to TMY?

SW Rick
16-Dec-2010, 20:25
OK, just put on my flack jacket...

So B&H sells TMY-2 @ $72 for 50 sheets of 4x5. That's $1.44 per sheet.

If my math is correct, 8x10 is 4x 4x5. 4 sheets of 4x5 cost $5.76.

8x10 is a niche of 4x5. The price of $6.20/sheet is less than a 10% premium over the price of the higher volume 4x5 sheets.

I don't understand the problem here.

Fire when ready...

Oren Grad
16-Dec-2010, 20:35
So the likely, cheaper, more available alternative to TMY is HP5. Does anyone prefer HP5 to TMY?

I do. But it's not like TMY. If you really prefer and depend on the characteristics of TMY, best to buy TMY if you can manage it.

jim kitchen
16-Dec-2010, 20:40
Damn you Jim! :)

Dear Allen, et al... :)

TMY, and its most recent sibling, happens to be an amazing film, and I truly enjoy how it works with XTOL. When Kodak decides to reevaluate TMY's market share a few years or months from now, for whatever reason, and whether their marketing decision is unfavourable and, or they introduce TMY-3 because we are willing to pay a premium for this film's exceptional characteristics, I will take comfort knowing that I exercised a traditional Boy Scout motto by exploring an alternate film, developer, and maybe a new development process, going forward today.

jim k

Michael Kadillak
16-Dec-2010, 21:53
Does anyone prefer HP5 to TMY?

Not here. I gave Chauncey Walden a free 24 sheet box of HP5 in 11x14 so I could free up the space in my chest freezer for TMY. That said if you shoot under normal conditions for sliver enlarging papers it can work just fine.

If you are an alternative process or print with Lodima you use TMY because of your inherent need for a greater delivered density range and the potential to kick it up a notch and have the operating elasticity for N+ development to your full expectation. HP5 is just not the tool for this job. Period.

Bruce Watson
17-Dec-2010, 08:16
Boys, at least call a joker a joker, we have had a stick poked into our eye and there is little most of us can do about it.

If you insist on looking at it that way -- the stick that is poked in your eye is held by 8 x 10 users. Kodak is just responding to their actions, and being a convenient fall guy that you can point to.

Kodak hasn't abandoned you. It is 8 x 10 users that have abandoned Kodak. If people don't buy the film, Kodak isn't going to make it available. Why should they? What is it about any of us, myself included, that is so special that Kodak should subsidize our art?

Come on now. Y'all can't really believe that Kodak put in the R&D to create TMY-2 expecting it to have a life of just a few years. But if photographers like us refuse to buy it, that's what's going to happen to TMY-2. If we abandon it, Kodak will abandon it.

Greg Y
17-Dec-2010, 08:24
I'm pleased that Keith C is keeping TMax going, as did Glazers and the view camera store with runs of TMY2 last year. I'm sorry to see that the 5x7 boxes have been reduced to 25s. 50s are convenient, and sure save on boxes....10 holders and one sheet left over doesn't go very far...

Michael Kadillak
17-Dec-2010, 08:56
Thanks Bruce and Greg.

We all recognize that there will be those that like to sit back and find 101 reason not to look at this situation as an opportunity and continue to fire bullets. If that makes them feel good that is great. All I know is that is not going to put this marvelous sheet film in my holders now and in the future. That is really all that matters.

Over the years we all have heard posts from photographers about their favorite film or paper that was pulled from the market and how they lament not being able to maintain access to it. Then we see the situation replaying in front of us with the opportunity to do something about it or play the broken record of "Another One Bites The Dust".

Kodak dropped over a million dollars two years ago to make TMY(2) even better. They also kept the UV coating off of the sheets for alt processes users. Increased costs? Yes. many items we consume now costs more. Even Adox and Efke increased their costs recently over 25%. This business is also now a niche market from which costs are not passed over a broad seller base as was the case years ago. This is just a reality of where we are NOW. Many of us do not want to acquiesce to the market drivers with digital. I can coat paper but I do not want to coat plates.

Are we so naive to think that if Kodak stops selling 8x10 that other manufacturers will likely follow? Ilford sent out a student survey for folks to fill out. That tells me that they are similarly in a quandry as to how they posture their business for the future. I pray that many of you are not waiting for Ilford to announce their formal transition from the analog business before you take this issue seriously.

Drew Wiley
17-Dec-2010, 12:06
Ilford (Harman) is pretty well married to the analog market, especially given its increased commitment to enlargement paper with the acquisition of Kentmere. Its
digital paper interest was sold to Oji along with Ilfochrome. Specific products within
the overall mix which sell poorly are always susceptible to review. But lets remember
the importance of sheet square inches. Every single time one of us 8x10 shooters pops
the shutter, that's equivalent to two rolls of 35mm film being sold, or four sheets of
4x5.

Brian C. Miller
17-Dec-2010, 14:27
Actually, it's one roll of 35mm. If you do like I did (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=660389&postcount=23), you'll find that one 135-36 covers just one 8x10 holder. (And yes, I'm planning to do it again! Bwahahahaha!)

Drew Wiley
17-Dec-2010, 14:55
Brian - why not just make a 1" x 36" panoramic view camera ?

Brian C. Miller
17-Dec-2010, 15:05
It's the high cost of that 36" coverage lens. However, if the lens moved while the film stayed stationary, that could work...

Ken Lee
17-Dec-2010, 18:19
On further consideration, the price strikes me as reasonable - especially when we consider all the other expenses.

One 13x19 sheet of Canson Platine inkjet paper costs around 4 dollars - and to me it's definitely worth it.

Years ago, a friend told me she took a class in Photography. The instructor's very first lesson was for each student to get to the top of a tall building, and toss a $5 bill into the wind.

Tim Gray
17-Dec-2010, 20:00
Only $5? :D

Rayt
17-Dec-2010, 20:38
My friend took a photography class and day one the instructor told him to remove the UV filter and then proceeded to smash it to bits. My friend was not a happy camper that day!

Jay DeFehr
17-Dec-2010, 21:23
Anyone familiar with the principle of a tipping point? The principle was famously applied to the racial balance of neighborhoods, but applies equally well here, I think. As long as there was a large number of film users, film was available at a relatively low price. As users abandon a market, the balance shifts, and film becomes less available and more expensive, which drives more users to abandon the market, until a tipping point is reached, and film is discontinued altogether. The idea that the remaining users can somehow make up for the lost ones is ludicrous. Anyone willing to pay the going rate will do so, for as long as they're willing and the film is available, but once a film becomes a special order, that's probably enough to reach the tipping point, and it will become more and more difficult to find participants for these special orders. I love TMY-2, it's my favorite film, but luckily I don't have to shoot 8x10 to "express my vision", and I suspect there are many others like me. I wish TMY-2 would remain available and affordable in all formats, but I'm not naive enough to think I can buy it back to health, and there's no point in my getting emotional about it.

When I told my wife I was thinking of selling off my 8x10 gear and buying a good DSLR, she said, "Over my dead body". It sounds a lot more scary in Russian.

John Bowen
18-Dec-2010, 05:34
When I told my wife I was thinking of selling off my 8x10 gear and buying a good DSLR, she said, "Over my dead body". It sounds a lot more scary in Russian.

LOL...

So Jay, I guess we can look forward to your large film order? :D

Still LOL

Ken Lee
18-Dec-2010, 05:51
When I told my wife I was thinking of selling off my 8x10 gear and buying a good DSLR, she said, "Over my dead body". It sounds a lot more scary in Russian.

My wife has said the same thing, basically. She has always had a good sense for enduring quality and value.

John Brady
18-Dec-2010, 06:58
Of course this happens just as I was planning to start shooting t-max again!

I can live with the price but does it have to be ten sheet box's? It's still cheaper than the velvia I've been shooting.

Count me in for a ten box case or two.

www.timeandlight.com

Jay DeFehr
18-Dec-2010, 09:14
My wife has said the same thing, basically. She has always had a good sense for enduring quality and value.


Julia says digital photography is "empty" and "has no life", but I don't think that's fair, or accurate. I tried to explain the tipping point principle to her, but she remained unmoved, and doesn't care if we get stuck with a lot of useless equipment. A very emotional response. Then she suggested we buy a freezer and fill it with film, and I thought of MAS with his walk in freezer full of old, fogged SXX and Azo. I'm not going down that road.

The only process that demands an 8x10 film negative for an 8x10 print, that I know of, is silver chloride contact printing paper. I've seen Sandy's carbon prints made from digital negatives, and I would happily give up silver chloride paper for that kind of quality. Is there something more enduring than a carbon print? A 4x5 TMY-2 negative developed in Halcyon will make a very large print without sacrificing image quality. I don't know much about digital photography, but I think the D5's 21 MP would have little trouble making an 8x10 digital negative. I don't use a lot of camera movements anyway, and when I do, it's usually to compensate for the shallow dof imposed by my system.

I like film. I like everything about it; choosing and testing different films for their unique characteristics, processing it in different developers to bring out those qualities I like, and printing it on silver paper, in my darkroom. Film is nothing short of miraculous, and I'll continue to use it until it becomes prohibitively expensive or unavailable. TMY-2 has become prohibitively expensive in 8x10, so I'll use something else in that format, and continue to use TMY-2 in the formats I can afford. I know there will come a day for every film in every format, when it becomes prohibitively expensive or unavailable, and It will be a sad day on each occasion, but I won't give up photography because my favorite materials are no longer affordable or available, I'll transition to what is affordable and available, and continue to do my best to make photos that mean something to me. If I can't make images of enduring quality with digital equipment, I don't think there's anything film can do for me to improve them.

Jan Pedersen
18-Dec-2010, 09:53
For those interested in more TMY-2 before Canhams deadline, Adorama just got more in stock.
To save 10$ per box is not all that bad.

jeroldharter
18-Dec-2010, 12:39
For those interested in more TMY-2 before Canhams deadline, Adorama just got more in stock.
To save 10$ per box is not all that bad.

Thanks for the tip. I just ordered a bunch. Don't know whether to be all in or all out.

BTW, how could Adorama get more, if more does not exist? If Adorama can get more, why can't anyone else? I have always been a Kodak fan, but they are bungling the management of this one.

John Bowen
18-Dec-2010, 12:57
Thanks for the tip. I just ordered a bunch. Don't know whether to be all in or all out.

BTW, how could Adorama get more, if more does not exist? If Adorama can get more, why can't anyone else? I have always been a Kodak fan, but they are bungling the management of this one.

I just ordered some more too. If they fill my order, I won't be participating in the Canham order.

I heard through the grapevine that, Badgers was supposed to receive some more after they announced it was discontinued. I believe it is all spoken for. B&H has not yet listed TMY as discontinued. Yesterday, they changed TMX from "temporarily unavailable" to "discontinued." Today TMX is no longer listed on B&H's website.

Just because the retailers were sold out last week, doesn't mean the distribution chain was empty. Distributors could have had inventory or Kodak may have still had some finished goods inventory. I figure the reason it took Canham a few days to post a special order for 8x10 TMY is that there was likely still some product in the distribution chain. Kodak would wait for this to be sold prior to authorizing any special orders.

Allen in Montreal
18-Dec-2010, 13:14
For those interested in more TMY-2 before Canhams deadline, Adorama just got more in stock.
To save 10$ per box is not all that bad.

$47.20 to ship 3 boxes to Montreal. :mad:

Jan Pedersen
18-Dec-2010, 13:15
As John, i also believe there is more film in the distribution line it just need to reach the stores.

On Freestyles site they list it as overdue for delivery. A couple of day ago it was listed as expected delivery December 17
Badger had a few extra boxes the other day which i ordered.

I placed an order with Adorama this morning when i noticed that they again had it in stock.
I will not participate in the Canham order if i receive the film from Adorama.
If i use the TMY selectively and use other manufacturers film when i can, i will have enough TMY for the next 6 to 8 years.

Jan Pedersen
18-Dec-2010, 13:16
$47.20 to ship 3 boxes to Montreal.

Sorry Allan, you can have it shipped to my address that will cost a lot less :cool:

JC Kuba
18-Dec-2010, 13:37
Adorama must have gotten in a lot. I can order up to 9999 boxes without getting an error.:rolleyes:

Jan Pedersen
18-Dec-2010, 13:41
Adorama must have gotten in a lot. I can order up to 9999 boxes without getting an error

That is a bit suspicious i admit. I guess i will not set my hopes to high until i get the shipped email.

John Bowen
18-Dec-2010, 13:42
Adorama must have gotten in a lot. I can order up to 9999 boxes without getting an error.:rolleyes:

Gee, maybe Allen will get lucky and not have to spend all that $$ on shipping :rolleyes:

I guess we'll find out on Monday if our orders were processed.

Sanjay Sen
18-Dec-2010, 13:44
Adorama must have gotten in a lot. I can order up to 9999 boxes without getting an error.:rolleyes:

They can always cancel the order if it cannot be filled. It has happened in the past to other folks for other products, so just because an order was submitted online and accepted doesn't mean that it will be fulfilled. Don't hold me on this, but I recall reading somewhere that Adorama's online inventory status may be quite inaccurate.

Oren Grad
18-Dec-2010, 13:58
Don't hold me on this, but I recall reading somewhere that Adorama's online inventory status may be quite inaccurate.

That's been my experience with Adorama. Don't assume anything until you have confirmation that it's been shipped.

John Bowen
18-Dec-2010, 14:13
Amazon lists 1 box available.....through Adorama

mdm
18-Dec-2010, 17:22
Watch this and start screaming on facebook and twitter. Never know, it may do some good.

http://www.youtube.com/v/2o73fP2nM_s?fs=1&hl=en_GB

John Bowen
18-Dec-2010, 20:02
I see Adorama now lists TMY as backordered

Jim Cole
19-Dec-2010, 04:58
I got a notice from Adorama this morning that my 8x10 TMY order from yesterday was backordered.

John Bowen
19-Dec-2010, 07:26
I haven't received any notification from Adorama as to my order being backordered.

This is exactly how I got sooooo much film back in 2007. Kodak hadn't mentioned that a new emulsion was in the works, but I went to purchase some 8x10 TMY and noticed Badger was out of stock. I placed a large order with Badger, then visited B&H's site. B&H was also out of stock. Fearing Kodak was going to either discontinue TMY or just stop cutting it in 8x10, I also placed a large order with B&H. A week or two later, I received a notice that my order had shipped. Within a day or two after the B&H order arrived the Badger order showed up......I haven't needed to order 8x10 TMY since..... Well, not until last week....

We'll see if the Adorama order ships tomorrow.

Michael Kadillak
19-Dec-2010, 07:44
I got the same notice from Adorama. Not sure it if meant that part of my order is shipping or all of it. Will call them tomorrow and see what the deal is and go from there.

Personally, I am not worried. One way or another this will all work out and the image making will continue.

Armin Seeholzer
19-Dec-2010, 08:32
So if Kodak would listen to us then we still would have 50 sheet boxes or I could live with 20 or 25 sheet boxes but 10 sheet boxes is an exonomically no go for me!
Only in Color where I do not need much film does it work for me!

Cheers Armin

Jan Pedersen
19-Dec-2010, 09:41
Armin, It is easy to make 20 sheet boxes, two 10 sheet envelopes fits perfectly in the 10 sheet box and voila you have reduced your archival need to half the space.
It's not such a big deal really.

Allen in Montreal
19-Dec-2010, 10:12
Armin, It is easy to make 20 sheet boxes, two 10 sheet envelopes fits perfectly in the 10 sheet box and voila you have reduced your archival need to half the space.
It's not such a big deal really.

I can see Kodak not wanted to retool the packaging, but that would be a perfect comprise Jan.

Michael Kadillak
19-Dec-2010, 11:03
Armin, It is easy to make 20 sheet boxes, two 10 sheet envelopes fits perfectly in the 10 sheet box and voila you have reduced your archival need to half the space.
It's not such a big deal really.

I kept about 10 50 sheet triple boxes from years past that also work nicely. I can pack 4 or five 10 sheet packets and send all of the 10 sheet boxes to the recycle bin. That said sometimes people only need one reason not to proceed in spite of the fact that there are a myriad of reasons to move forward. It is still a free country and you can make the choice that works for you. Nobody is going to beg or plead with you to be a part of the solution to this issue.

Every time I set up my camera and reach for a holder I will feel good about what is in line to be exposed. A high usable film speed that translates to accomplishing my objectives in less than optimal shooting conditions along with quality control and one of the best emulsions available. There are times when lower costs are pertinent but when you experience emulsion defects that spoil a sky or banding along an edge or who knows what else could come up with some of the lesser brands to a myriad of other problems, what good is that? I have never had that issue with TMY or TMX ever.

We will pull this one off one way or another. At this point I am focused on getting through the holidays as we likely all are. We will pick this ball up right after the first of the year. I am figuring out how much film I can get in my freezer of if I need to get another one. I hope to be doing a considerable amount of shooting shortly thereafter and in the spring and beyond.

Onward!

John Bowen
19-Dec-2010, 11:46
Adorama says my order is backordered. B&H is supposed to let me know if they get any additional stuck. But it sure looks like I'll be participating in the Canham order for both 5x7 and 8x10.

Michael Kadillak
19-Dec-2010, 14:48
Adorama says my order is backordered. B&H is supposed to let me know if they get any additional stuck. But it sure looks like I'll be participating in the Canham order for both 5x7 and 8x10.

And I will be right there with you....

Lets see if anyone else wants to come along on this ride with us so we can put some volume together.

Jim Cole
20-Dec-2010, 15:51
Just got an "order cancelled" email from Adorama with the note that Kodak has discontinued the item (YMY 8x10). I still have hope that my other order for 6 boxes will come through via the other vendor. If not, I'll be on the Canham order sooner than anticipated.

Jan Pedersen
20-Dec-2010, 15:57
Received the same "Order Cancelled" a moment ago. Looks more likely now that it will be the Canham group order that will save the day.

John Bowen
20-Dec-2010, 16:11
Received the same "Order Cancelled" a moment ago. Looks more likely now that it will be the Canham group order that will save the day.

Me too

Michael Kadillak
20-Dec-2010, 16:14
Got the same notification as well. Freestyle has some expectations that an earlier order is supposed to ship Dec 29th will come through. I give it about a 10% chance of success.

Bottom line is we have to reach into our wallets and step up to the plate. In a specialty market one cannot bemoan the erratic behavior of manufacturers producing this product. In a perfect world we would have a small scale film maker with low overhead producing this fine film at a more appealing set of profit economics. Unfortunately, this optimal scenario would likely preclude the R&D necessary to allow T Max 100 and 400 to be developed and we would be using an inferior product.

I have grown to love this emulsion and will do what I need to do to make this happen.

In the same vein as when I assembled the Efke 8x20 sheet film deal, I would like to provide Keith with some collective assessment of where we are in the number of boxes of film that we could put together. I am going to order a minimum of 20 boxes and likely many more. PM me with what you can do (best guess) and I will put a list together to hand over to Keith.

Merry Christmas!

Greg Blank
20-Dec-2010, 18:13
Thanks Bruce and Greg.

Kodak dropped over a million dollars two years ago to make TMY(2) even better. They also kept the UV coating off of the sheets for alt processes users.

What does this mean for PMK users? Its been a while since I last used Tmax and the results with PMK were not splendid for me then.

jp
21-Dec-2010, 08:15
I love tmax400 with pmk. I shoot it at 320 and provide generous agitation when developing and have very nice results.

Drew Wiley
21-Dec-2010, 10:58
Greg - I am getting splendid results with TMY-2 in PMK.

vinny
21-Dec-2010, 12:11
What does this mean for PMK users? Its been a while since I last used Tmax and the results with PMK were not splendid for me then.

not to get off topic but I use pmk as well and get great results in a jobo.

mdm
21-Dec-2010, 12:18
All of you are the problem. If everyone bought what they would use over a reasonable period of time, say 2 months, demand would be very easy to predict and it would probably be available off the shelf. Perhaps the special order system is the only reasonable way fro them to cope with such a lumpy demand curve. Really, you are not a very rational lot and I can understand why they dont listen much to you. Like the boy that cried wolf. Ya just grumble, grumble, grumble.

Michael Kadillak
21-Dec-2010, 12:36
All of you are the problem. If everyone bought what they would use over a reasonable period of time, say 2 months, demand would be very easy to predict and it would probably be available off the shelf. Perhaps the special order system is the only reasonable way fro them to cope with such a lumpy demand curve. Really, you are not a very rational lot and I can understand why they dont listen much to you. Like the boy that cried wolf. Ya just grumble, grumble, grumble.

You are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is.

"Lumpy Demand Curve" - Is that an overweight girlfriend in your world? It surely does not sound like a business adjective.

Rational is having the film I want in my holders. It is not more complicated than that. I could care less what you and the other naysayers call it.

Have a Great Day!

Keith Pitman
21-Dec-2010, 13:02
Oops! Lumpy Demand Curve (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1183035) is real! No girlfriend involved!

Armin Seeholzer
21-Dec-2010, 13:24
For me its time to say godbay to Kodak SW products, I will only use Ilford Delta 100 or Fuji Acros 100 and 400 I don't use anymore as soon as my last 50 sheet Kodak TMY is gone!

Kodak has to make desicions, me to!

Armin

Jan Pedersen
21-Dec-2010, 13:32
Armin, Where do you get Acros 100 and 400 in sheet film? I never heard of Acros 400.

Armin Seeholzer
21-Dec-2010, 13:37
400 I don't use anymore!!!!!!

Cheers Armin

Jay DeFehr
21-Dec-2010, 14:51
David,

I don't think it's the fault of film users that TMY-2 is reduced to special order status any more than I think the remaining users of that product can change its status by buying more film. Both propositions deny the reality of the circumstance by pretending the remaining users can make up for lost ones. The first proposition claims the remaining film users can make up for those lost to digital, and by choosing not to do so, they're getting what they deserve when Kodak lowers the status of TMY-2 to special order. Kadillak and others seem to be proposing that the remaining users can guarantee their access to TMY-2, or otherwise influence the fate of TMY-2 by buying more of it, which is essentially the same proposition as the first, and equally ridiculous. TMY-2 will remain a special order film in those formats in which it is currently a special order film until it's discontinued in those formats. All other formats, and film in general, will follow the same trajectory as the users of them inevitably migrate to digital. Tilting at windmills aside, every sane person knows this is true. Saying so doesn't make me a naysayer, but it might be in poor taste to say something unpleasant everyone knows, but no one wants to acknowledge, and for that, I apologize.

Michael Kadillak
21-Dec-2010, 15:16
Oops! Lumpy Demand Curve (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1183035) is real! No girlfriend involved!

Go figure. Sometimes even tongue in cheek can get you directed into corrective recovery mode.

That said I know that we never covered this material while I was in engineering school....

Michael Kadillak
21-Dec-2010, 15:24
For me its time to say godbay to Kodak SW products, I will only use Ilford Delta 100 or Fuji Acros 100 and 400 I don't use anymore as soon as my last 50 sheet Kodak TMY is gone!

Kodak has to make desicions, me to!

Armin

Ilford or Fuji both originate closer to your country of residence and that is a good thing. That said with the consumption taxes that I suspect come with these purchases I suspect your net costs are still higher than we are seeing here in the United States for comparable products.

It is what it is.

John NYC
21-Dec-2010, 17:37
Armin, Where do you get Acros 100 and 400 in sheet film? I never heard of Acros 400.

I also would love to shoot 8x10 Acros, but it is not available in the U.S. now as far as I know.

Greg Blank
21-Dec-2010, 18:24
If your serious about your work shooting one emulsion has decided advantages instead of constantly testing new emulsions every month. When i last bought film i bought 600 dollars worth.


All of you are the problem. If everyone bought what they would use over a reasonable period of time, say 2 months, demand would be very easy to predict and it would probably be available off the shelf. Perhaps the special order system is the only reasonable way fro them to cope with such a lumpy demand curve. Really, you are not a very rational lot and I can understand why they dont listen much to you. Like the boy that cried wolf. Ya just grumble, grumble, grumble.

jeroldharter
21-Dec-2010, 19:17
Looks like I beat everyone to the punch. I received my Adorama order today for the full 9999 boxes. Since it is the Christmas season, I will be selling it for $100 per box. PM me if interested.

Just kidding. Adorama cancelled my order indicated that the "product is discontinued by manufacturer."

John Bowen
21-Dec-2010, 19:32
If your serious about your work shooting one emulsion has decided advantages instead of constantly testing new emulsions every month. When i last bought film i bought 600 dollars worth.

Greg,

I couldn't agree more.

Jay,

I'm not interested in "saving" TMY-2 for all the others, I'm only interested in saving it for myself. Since Kodak likely won't be making it the next time I need to purchase it, I figure I should put enough in the freezers to last me a damn good long time. The trouble comes with trying to forcast personal film consumption a decade or two from now. So in 2030, keep an eye out for me, I'll be the guy with the digi around my neck.

Happy Holidays to all the LF shooters out there,
John

Jan Pedersen
21-Dec-2010, 19:44
Well said John. I can perhps be naive but not enough to think that Kodak will continue to make TMY-2 in 8x10 just because we get a special order going.

I am stocking up to have enough for a long time.

BILL3075
21-Dec-2010, 20:51
I, too, agree with John.

In fact, we spoke about this very point earlier today: If a LF photographer wants to protect his investment (camera, lenses, etc.), he'd better be somewhat aggressive in his film purchases. One box per year was fine until the firm and widespread acceptance of digital photography. Now, the photographer has to anticipate his film needs, as best he can, several years going forward. And this strategy is especially true for those of us using ULF cameras.

This is the reality we now face, whether we like it or not.

Happy holidays to one and all, :)

BILL




Greg,

I couldn't agree more.

Jay,

I'm not interested in "saving" TMY-2 for all the others, I'm only interested in saving it for myself. Since Kodak likely won't be making it the next time I need to purchase it, I figure I should put enough in the freezers to last me a damn good long time. The trouble comes with trying to forcast personal film consumption a decade or two from now. So in 2030, keep an eye out for me, I'll be the guy with the digi around my neck.

Happy Holidays to all the LF shooters out there,
John

John Bowen
22-Dec-2010, 05:52
On a personal note, I've always looked at Photography as a Hobby/Passion. I receive great satisfaction from the process. I love being in the outdoors with my cameras. I enjoy the fellowship of other LF/ULF photographers, we share a common bond. Lord knows I've dropped a small fortune on photo gear, but I've never anticipated a "financial" return on my "investment." I view this as "pre-funding" my retirement. I look forward, with great anticipation, to future photo trips, meeting up with friends, attending workshops, exposing film, developing film, proofing the negatives and perhaps hanging a few on the walls.

Perhaps, more than any of the above, I look forward to sharing the magic with my grandchildren. I fully expect my LF cameras and lenses to pass down a few generations. "This camera belonged to your grandfather's, grandfather, it's part of who he was." That's the "return" I anticipate on my investment. I'm pretty sure those of us looking to stockpile film for the next decade or two would share similar feelings.

Best Wishes,

Ken Lee
23-Dec-2010, 06:01
I have removed Jay's post and related posts.

I err on the side of being respectful to the feelings of others.

It's best to follow the forum guidelines, which encourage us to "...maintain a respectful and professional decorum."

Jay is a wonderful contributor here. We're lucky to have him.

Even if we don't perceive a statement as offensive or inflammatory, we need to consider whether others might.

Michael Kadillak
23-Dec-2010, 08:53
Very well done Ken. I was hoping that this would take place as soon as I read the post. I was going to reply but did not want to step in it.

The common sense should kick in well before one hits the "Post Reply" button, but that is what moderators are here for.

Michael Kadillak
23-Dec-2010, 08:57
Just to give everyone a heads up, we are currently over 60% of the way to completing the 8x10 TMY Special Order. Thanks to all that have contacted me and stepped up.

For those of you that are sitting on the sidelines, now is the time to stand up and get with the program because this bus is heading out of the station in order mode right after the first of the year when I turn this over to Keith Canham and who knows when the next trip will be scheduled?

Merry Christmas!

Cor
23-Dec-2010, 09:20
Jay,

Your comments on economic mechanisms made all the sense in the world to me, but I think your example of that mechanism wasn't a good one for this forum, because it drags us from photography into politics. Not against some restrained politics, but this thread deals with a group order of TMax400..

Best,

Cor

John NYC
23-Dec-2010, 09:40
Ken,
There was one poster who found my post offensive, and two who supported my post.

Maybe one that spoke up, but probably many more who didn't. Count me in that group who not only think it was offensive, but also nonsensical. The economics arising out of racist attitudes have no relevance to the economics related to a new technology making an older one less profitable.

Ken Lee
23-Dec-2010, 10:11
According to the Forum Guidelines, this forum is here

"...to provide a place for discussion of topics of particular interest to large format photographers. We especially encourage questions which will help build a repository of knowledge about the tools and techniques of large format photography...Topics and discussions of politics and religion are not allowed".

There are countless venues on the internet where we can freely discuss politics, religion, and all manner of related topics. We should feel welcome to share our insights - at those places. :)

Jay DeFehr
23-Dec-2010, 10:56
Ken,

My posts were not political in any way. This thread, far from being associated with the tools and techniques of LF photography, is about the economics of LF photography. The political implications of the tipping point principle was introduced by others, not by me. My points were strictly confined to economics and statistics, and directly related to the topic of the thread. That my remarks could be construed as political or racial says more about the attitudes of those doing the construing than anything I wrote. You did not moderate, but rather, chose sides; the very opposite of moderation, and you chose the wrong side. Those who complained are the ones being political (and racist, for that matter), not me. I did not introduce politics into this discussion, and I agree the political implications of the statistical phenomena are best discussed elsewhere. That is not the same as agreeing that the economics in themselves are overtly political or inappropriate to this discussion, which are equally ridiculous propositions.

Michael Kadillak
23-Dec-2010, 11:38
How many times do you have to get hit with the delete button before you figure it out.

Now we can get back on topic once and for all and stop all of the extraneous and non sensical diatribes.

We are now nearly 75% of the way toward a T Max 400 8x10 special order in less than three days of chasing it. Thanks to all that have PM'd me and I look forward to others chiming in shortly.

Jay DeFehr
23-Dec-2010, 11:51
Michael,

Good luck with your order, and happy holidays.

Steve Goldstein
23-Dec-2010, 12:12
While I don't shoot 8x10 myself, and probably never will, I hope that the rapidity with which this group buy seems to be coming together might influence Kodak to reconsider their standard-product support for this format...

Michael Kadillak
23-Dec-2010, 13:48
While I don't shoot 8x10 myself, and probably never will, I hope that the rapidity with which this group buy seems to be coming together might influence Kodak to reconsider their standard-product support for this format...

I hope so as well.

What I can tell you is that after we did the first TMY deal a few years back we did get some people's attention at Kodak.

Owning four 8x10 cameras and finding TMY the best to feed them puts me (and others like me) at risk of not being able to have access to this absolutely exceptional emulsion and that is simply unacceptable. There is simply no excuse - this deal will get done.

Michael Kadillak
23-Dec-2010, 20:16
We have received intent orders amounting to 86% of the volume of 8x10 TMY we need to proceed. If you want to participate please let me know because when we reach our goal and proceed, the door will close and that will be all she wrote until the next order.

John Bowen
23-Dec-2010, 20:29
Michael,

Have you posted anything about this an APUG?

Best,

Michael Kadillak
23-Dec-2010, 20:43
Michael,

Have you posted anything about this an APUG?

Best,

I made a post about a week ago but I will make another soon to bring them up to speed as well.

Thanks for the reminder John.

Cheers!

JamesFromSydney
24-Dec-2010, 05:44
How do you make payment for these orders from outside the US?

Looks like they don't take credit cards.

Fred L
24-Dec-2010, 05:47
Michael,

Any possibilty of other sizes or is this strictly an 8x10 order ?


thx

Fred

Sanjay Sen
24-Dec-2010, 07:08
How do you make payment for these orders from outside the US?

Looks like they don't take credit cards.

On the Kodak Film page (http://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilm.html), it says "K. B. Canham Cameras, Inc. is not equipped to take credit cards. Please contact one of our dealers if you wish to pay via credit card.".

Michael Kadillak
24-Dec-2010, 07:46
How do you make payment for these orders from outside the US?

Looks like they don't take credit cards.

I will find out how Keith is set up to accept payment and let you know ASAP. I know that this issue has been favorably resolved. I just do not have the details right now.

Michael Kadillak
24-Dec-2010, 07:51
Michael,

Any possibilty of other sizes or is this strictly an 8x10 order ?


thx

Fred

Right now Fred we are singularly focused on the 8x10 order which will be completed right after the first of Jan 2011 as we have 95% of the necessary volume. When we get this one on the done column the plan is to use this example to leverage it to improved results while we target other formats. Keith has lowered the box size on 5x7 and that deal is on his website.

I would like everyone to remember that Keith tries to pick up each and every phone call in person at his place of business during a regular business day. In the evenings is when he has access to the internet and at time sit takes him a while to respond to these messages. Right now Keith is a very busy man and that is a very good thing. If you are not getting your question answered please call him.

Allen in Montreal
24-Dec-2010, 08:45
Michael,

Any possibility of other sizes or is this strictly an 8x10 order ?


thx

Fred

Fred,
You are now shooting some 11x14 too, correct? He has an 11x14 TXP project.
http://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilm.html


I think Michael has made the 8x10 buy work, but the 5x7 buy is looking unlikely.

From the Canham site:


Film Size Film Type
5x7

TMax 400
Number of boxes still required
193

Deadline Date
01/30/2011

Suggested Retail per Box
$75 - 25 sheets per box

~~~~~~~

Film Size Film Type
16x20
TriX

Number of boxes still required
12

Deadline Date
12/28/2010

$743 - 25 sheets per box

Fred L
24-Dec-2010, 08:55
Thanks for all the info Michael. I imagine Keith must be tired of hearing the phone ringing but if it get's Kodak's attention...

Allen, no 11x14 but 7x17. Have a good stock of HP-5 but have always been a Yellow Father follower.

ic-racer
24-Dec-2010, 09:16
I'm not sure how this works. If you get 105% of the volume of ordered film will it all get filled? Or is ordering closed after 100% volume? Or closed after a certain date?

Allen in Montreal
24-Dec-2010, 09:30
.....but if it get's Kodak's attention.....

Allen, no 11x14 but 7x17. Have a good stock of HP-5 but have always been a Yellow Father follower.

Amazing what 50 years of legendary Tri-x can do for a company to build a following!
Where is that Kodak Chief Listener now? :D




I'm not sure how this works. If you get 105% of the volume of ordered film will it all get filled? Or is ordering closed after 100% volume? Or closed after a certain date?

I would bet it can go above the minimum order but, in set increments much the same way we add pages to the newspaper, it comes off the presses and cutter in pre-set blocks of 8 pages.
Say 200 boxes to start and then 219 boxes, 238 boxes and so on (just pulling numbers out of the sky for an example).
Mind you, Kodak could just offer the overage from the batch to Badger or Freestyle who no doubt would snap it up in a Nanosecond. :-0

Michael Kadillak
24-Dec-2010, 09:33
I'm not sure how this works. If you get 105% of the volume of ordered film will it all get filled? Or is ordering closed after 100% volume? Or closed after a certain date?

We have no maximum quantity on this deal only a minimum that Kodak requested to proceed forward. The only restriction we have is that we need to turn this around on or before the middle of January 2011. That is why I decided that I would assist Keith in this regard as I did not want this to languish to fall short of the goal and not come to fruition. That is completely unacceptable as far as I am concerned. Keith has a discount coupon on his website that needs to accompany payment but Keith will provide the details for payment and shipping shortly.

As it stands right now we have the volume to proceed with the 8x10 TMY deal and that is great news.

A personal thanks to all of the great LF photographers that have stepped up and made contact. You are the BEST!

When we get this deal in the completed column I am open to kicking other formats in the ass to get them moving. Suggestions?

Onward

letchhausen
24-Dec-2010, 13:24
All other formats, and film in general, will follow the same trajectory as the users of them inevitably migrate to digital. Tilting at windmills aside, every sane person knows this is true. Saying so doesn't make me a naysayer, but it might be in poor taste to say something unpleasant everyone knows, but no one wants to acknowledge, and for that, I apologize.

I would hardly say this is something that "is true" or something "everyone knows". The sheer amount of LF'ers that I know just at school here in Seattle, have met around the country and number of alt process workshops etc makes me think that the idea that migrating to digital is "inevitable" is along the same lines that LP's were finished back in the 80's with the advent of the compact disc. And look now there are more turntables and LP's sold all the time. In fact most indie bands offer their albums on LP and download only, bye bye compact disc. Yes, analog is a niche market but somehow manages to survive. I love film and (though I doubt I'll live to see it happen) if it's gone I'll be coating glass plates. And you know what? There's a ton of people that will be doing the same. Yes, it's gonna be small but still out there. But I don't see film going away, just a smaller number of choices.

I find this whole thread inspring in terms of watching a community work together with corporate interest to make something happen. Far from grumbling in my view. Almost makes me want to shoot with TMY but I'm a Tri-X guy.....

Jay DeFehr
24-Dec-2010, 21:25
letchhausen,

Don't misunderstand me, I love film and use a lot of it, including TMY-2, in 8x10, which is my favorite film. None of the above changes the market or the mechanisms within it. Your analogy of film v digital compared to vinyl v CD is innocent of the manufacturing distinction. Pressing vinyl albums is almost ideally suited to low volume production. Film is a far different case.

Whatever your personal experience, it suffers all the statistical problems of a small sample. If every other person you know used TMY-2 in 8x10 it would have no practical influence on its production or availability.

I'm sorry, but the Emperor is clearly butt-naked.

Brian C. Miller
24-Dec-2010, 22:30
letchhausen, the whole film production system is set up for high volume, and it starts with the base support material, i.e., the master roll of plastic film.

Minimum order is six rolls, and each roll is 1,850 meters long. There are 1,609 meters in a mile.
1,850 meters * 39 inches = 72150 inches
72150 / 10 = 7215 cross sheets
Now of course it's 8x10, the roll width is 48", but we're going to leave off some as trim.
7215 * 5 = 57,720 sheets.
Packed 10 to a box, that's 5,772 boxes.
5772 boxes * $70 = $404,040

I'm guessing that one master roll of 8x10 TMY-2 has a retail value in the $400,000 neighborhood, or 26 special order runs and some retail left over. Mr. Canham is going to be very busy with the other 25 orders.

Just because an ex-Kodak engineer in Australia built a coating machine in his garage and can produce excellent B&W, that doesn't mean that any of this can carry over to an actual substitution for major film manufacturers.

Michael Kadillak
24-Dec-2010, 22:57
letchhausen,

Don't misunderstand me, I love film and use a lot of it, including TMY-2, in 8x10, which is my favorite film. None of the above changes the market or the mechanisms within it. Your analogy of film v digital compared to vinyl v CD is innocent of the manufacturing distinction. Pressing vinyl albums is almost ideally suited to low volume production. Film is a far different case.

Whatever your personal experience, it suffers all the statistical problems of a small sample. If every other person you know used TMY-2 in 8x10 it would have no practical influence on its production or availability.

I'm sorry, but the Emperor is clearly butt-naked.

Please.....

You are precisely the type of person and attitude that keeps me cranking. Those that talk like they really have some worldly experience to share with us but come off as all talk and no action and nothing to contribute. You have few expectations and are never ever disappointed or wrong in your conclusions because you have it ALL figured out.

While you are lamenting the inevitable demise of your world or attempt to espouse some ass backward conclusion , those of us that make things happen will continue to do so and watch you in the rear view mirror until you simply fade away from view.

Now back to the topic. We have commitments in excess of what we need to make this Special Order proceed. And proceed it will. I got news for you. This film in my holders is not a statistical anomaly. It is a fact.

Jay DeFehr
25-Dec-2010, 01:11
Please.....

You are precisely the type of person and attitude that keeps me cranking. Those that talk like they really have some worldly experience to share with us but come off as all talk and no action and nothing to contribute. You have few expectations and are never ever disappointed or wrong in your conclusions because you have it ALL figured out.

While you are lamenting the inevitable demise of your world or attempt to espouse some ass backward conclusion , those of us that make things happen will continue to do so and watch you in the rear view mirror until you simply fade away from view.

Now back to the topic. We have commitments in excess of what we need to make this Special Order proceed. And proceed it will. I got news for you. This film in my holders is not a statistical anomaly. It is a fact.

Michael,

Wow. And on Christmas eve. I hope that whatever is eating at you passes, and the new year is happier than the last. Merry Christmas!

Michael Kadillak
25-Dec-2010, 09:01
Humor me. Your negativity only fires me up.

It has been an absolutely fabulous 2010 and 2011 is going to be our best year ever.

Jay DeFehr
25-Dec-2010, 11:27
Michael,

I'm happy to inspire (ignite?) you, and I wish you the best year ever.

Merry Christmas!

letchhausen
25-Dec-2010, 13:38
My comment about film not going away was in light of the fact that right now there is Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Efke, Foma and Adox making sheet film. My guess is that the larger corporations will ditch first and that will push current customers to the smaller companies. As I said, it will be a niche market but I don't see it going away anytime soon. With People like Canham and Kadillak and people on forums like this working to make things happen I'm optimistic that whatever the production constraints, someone will manufacture a product that people want even for a niche market.

Michael and Paula are a good example of what can get accomplished when a major player ditches a product like Azo and M&P created their own silver chloride paper.
My point was merely that as long as those of us that care about producing work with these materials continue to use and buy them, they will be around. My anecdotal evidence was also supported by the number of schools offering large format classes, photographers offering LF workshops and alt process workshops, flickr sites and even the huge amount of hipster cred around Holgas (since Jack and Meg of the White Stripes had their own signature Holga and Diana cameras) and toy cameras which all point to a healty niche market for film and analog products. The amount of people on the Polaroid flickr sites buying Impossible Project materials is also a good sign that not everyone wants to shoot digital. We will continue to see younger kids wanting to get a Speed Graphic and shoot 4x5. There will always be a percentage, yes statistically small, that will want to do things differently.

So Merry xmas for those optimistic about film's future while realizing that the glory days are over but hey if you can still get Kodak to do a special order run once a year then things are good.

Michael Kadillak
25-Dec-2010, 14:02
My comment about film not going away was in light of the fact that right now there is Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Efke, Foma and Adox making sheet film. My guess is that the larger corporations will ditch first and that will push current customers to the smaller companies. As I said, it will be a niche market but I don't see it going away anytime soon. With People like Canham and Kadillak and people on forums like this working to make things happen I'm optimistic that whatever the production constraints, someone will manufacture a product that people want even for a niche market.

Michael and Paula are a good example of what can get accomplished when a major player ditches a product like Azo and M&P created their own silver chloride paper.
My point was merely that as long as those of us that care about producing work with these materials continue to use and buy them, they will be around. My anecdotal evidence was also supported by the number of schools offering large format classes, photographers offering LF workshops and alt process workshops, flickr sites and even the huge amount of hipster cred around Holgas (since Jack and Meg of the White Stripes had their own signature Holga and Diana cameras) and toy cameras which all point to a healty niche market for film and analog products. The amount of people on the Polaroid flickr sites buying Impossible Project materials is also a good sign that not everyone wants to shoot digital. We will continue to see younger kids wanting to get a Speed Graphic and shoot 4x5. There will always be a percentage, yes statistically small, that will want to do things differently.

So Merry xmas for those optimistic about film's future while realizing that the glory days are over but hey if you can still get Kodak to do a special order run once a year then things are good.

Very well said and I completely agree. I even have a couple of plan "B"'s up my sleeve for a worse case scenario that I doubt will happen. I like to be prepared for a long and lasting relationship consuming sheet film and will accept nothing less than the best that is available.

The reward I get for working on these projects aside from insuring that they come to fruition, is getting to know the passionate photographers that are part of the solution as they are truly inspiring as to how they find a way to get it done.

Drew Wiley
25-Dec-2010, 14:18
I miss certain niche films, but would rather have one really good versatile one.
TMY fits this description. But I seriously wonder if there will be enough interest in TMX100 down the line for an 8x10 batch order. It's a really good masking and color separation film; but I have found substitutes if needed. Good products have come
and gone as long as I can remember. And the fact is, most films have more lifespan
on the market than specific scanners and the specific scanners and software programs. Given dollars invested, what is actually more vunerable?

Jan Pedersen
25-Dec-2010, 17:41
Drew, You might want to check with Jeff at Badger, i believe TMX100 is in stock.

Drew Wiley
26-Dec-2010, 13:19
Thanks, Jan. I already bought some from Badger. I'm more concerned about down the road when I need to replenish. While I can visualize TMY being special cut every
few years, TMX would seem to have a smaller following in 8X10 because the finer grain is not generally required, and the slower speed is a disadvantage for general
shooting. I can only afford so much of this stuff at a time. I use TMX primarily in the
lab, not in the field.

JC Kuba
5-Jan-2011, 14:13
I'm not sure where the actual status of the Canham order of the 8x10 TMax 400 stands right now. On the Canham site it says they still need orders for 218 more boxes, but I guess Michael is aware of more orders in the pipeline. It looks unlikely the the demand for 5x7 Tmax 400 is high enough to fulfill minimum needed for that order. I just want to suggest to those who shoot 5x7 Tmax 400 consider getting on board with the 8x10 order and cutting it to size. That's what I'm going to try.

Michael Kadillak
5-Jan-2011, 14:28
I'm not sure where the actual status of the Canham order of the 8x10 TMax 400 stands right now. On the Canham site it says they still need orders for 218 more boxes, but I guess Michael is aware of more orders in the pipeline. It looks unlikely the the demand for 5x7 Tmax 400 is high enough to fulfill minimum needed for that order. I just want to shoot 5x7 Tmax 400 consider getting on board with the 8x10 order and cutting it to size. That's what I'm going to try.

Yes, Keith has not yet gone through the package of data I sent him where I had tabulated well over 200 boxes of commitment. The 8x10 deal will go through. Unfortunately, the 5x7 deal is languishing as we speak and that is in need of attention.

Once the 8x10 TMY special order is submitted we are going to focus first on ULF and employ some creative framework whereby we can do this dance at predictable intervals that everyone working with various formats can get ready for. I have some ideas that will make this work that I need to sit down with Keith and Kodak to hammer them out.

The best assistance we can ask for is the communications of these activities among the folks that each person on this forum knows that may not be regular participants here. As is always the case, I am making myself available for comments, suggestions and any other proactive idea that will assist all of us realize our goal of continuing to enjoy quality sheet film for many years to come. This is our future and it will continue to be bright as long as we continue to aggregate our passion for sheet film.

Onward!

Michael Kadillak
5-Jan-2011, 14:31
I'm not sure where the actual status of the Canham order of the 8x10 TMax 400 stands right now. On the Canham site it says they still need orders for 218 more boxes, but I guess Michael is aware of more orders in the pipeline. It looks unlikely the the demand for 5x7 Tmax 400 is high enough to fulfill minimum needed for that order. I just want to shoot 5x7 Tmax 400 consider getting on board with the 8x10 order and cutting it to size. That's what I'm going to try.

Spring is just around the corner so I may have to personally deliver your sheet film order to you in Big Sky Country just so I can enjoy some of that beautiful scenery that I so dearly miss from growing up there.

Cheers!

Ken Lee
5-Jan-2011, 14:43
If the price were close to that of HP5+, I would order a bunch of 5x7.

Michael Kadillak
5-Jan-2011, 15:14
If the price were close to that of HP5+, I would order a bunch of 5x7.

Looks like you are going to be shooting HP5 for as long as it is available.

That said I will admit there are days that I wish that TMY was not such an absolutely perfect sheet film.

Ron McElroy
6-Jan-2011, 09:57
I've never been involved in a special order, but want to add a few more boxes of TMY to the freezer. After filling out the order form and printing the coupon how does one proceed? Do I send the paper work and check directly to KB Canham or do I have to go though one of the dealers on his web page?

Michael Kadillak
6-Jan-2011, 10:37
I've never been involved in a special order, but want to add a few more boxes of TMY to the freezer. After filling out the order form and printing the coupon how does one proceed? Do I send the paper work and check directly to KB Canham or do I have to go though one of the dealers on his web page?

Send the paperwork and the payment directly to Canham Cameras at the address on his web page. You can always give Keith a call (he actually picks up all calls personally) and he can answer any other questions you may have.

Thanks Ron. It is with folks like yourself that we will maintain access to this marvelous emulsion for many years to come.

Cheers!

Eric_Scott
6-Jan-2011, 21:01
Just mailed my order for 8x10, but I'm a little concerned that the Canham site indicates that 172 boxes still need to be ordered.

Michael Kadillak
6-Jan-2011, 21:13
Just mailed my order for 8x10, but I'm a little concerned that the Canham site indicates that 172 boxes still need to be ordered.

Fear not. The orders are only beginning to arrive. It will take a week or two for the orders to arrive and be tabulated and all will be picture perfect.

Cheers!

JC Kuba
18-Jan-2011, 22:22
The Canham site shows that the minimum order for 8x10 T-Max 400 has been met.:)

James Hilton
19-Jan-2011, 06:22
The Canham site shows that the minimum order for 8x10 T-Max 400 has been met.:)

Good news for all 10x8 T-MAX users!

The numbers tell an interesting story too. By the looks of it, around 200 orders were placed in about one month. Simple extrapolation implies around 2400 a year (out of a population of 6bn :confused: ). At $69 per box that is $165,600, of which Kodak won't pocket all. Taking into account production costs, and staff costs etc it pretty much confirms that there must be cost cross subsidisation of the products to make it worth their while even offering the option as it is hard to see how they could make any money if there wasn't.

It reinforces my belief that large format film is not only under threat from its own demand but also the demand of other film stocks that the manufacturer makes.

Interestingly about 2200 boxes is around about one master roll, as a master roll can make 22,000 135s. I have also heard from several sources that Kodak packs the 10x8 cardboard boxes by hand as demand is so low it's not worth using a machine to pack them automatically.

Michael Kadillak
19-Jan-2011, 07:31
Good news for all 10x8 T-MAX users!

The numbers tell an interesting story too. By the looks of it, around 200 orders were placed in about one month. Simple extrapolation implies around 2400 a year (out of a population of 6bn :confused: ). At $69 per box that is $165,600, of which Kodak won't pocket all. Taking into account production costs, and staff costs etc it pretty much confirms that there must be cost cross subsidisation of the products to make it worth their while even offering the option as it is hard to see how they could make any money if there wasn't.

It reinforces my belief that large format film is not only under threat from its own demand but also the demand of other film stocks that the manufacturer makes.

Interestingly about 2200 boxes is around about one master roll, as a master roll can make 22,000 135s. I have also heard from several sources that Kodak packs the 10x8 cardboard boxes by hand as demand is so low it's not worth using a machine to pack them automatically.

Extrapolation of assumptions is highly problematic. What we do know is more orders will be forthcoming. Stay tuned....

Steve Hamley
19-Jan-2011, 09:16
I'm interested in future orders, just couldn't quite make this one w/o sacrificing elsewhere.

Oh. and Big Thanks to Michael for coordinating this post and the other special order things he's done.

Cheers, Steve

cdholden
19-Jan-2011, 10:29
Extrapolation of assumptions is highly problematic. What we do know is more orders will be forthcoming. Stay tuned....

Is it too late to place an order for this run?

Drew Wiley
19-Jan-2011, 10:46
Keith is taking order till the end of the month, although the 10% discount coupon has
expired. By the way, a master roll for the sake of sheet film requires a different base
than small format films, so with the exception of these special cuts, would imply the
entire thing is dedicated to 4x5. Given the unique combination of fine grain, high speed,
and long scale this film delivers, it would appear to be a very popular film in 4x5. It's
becoming the new standard around here in schools who want to teach view camera
technique, just like Super-XX was in the old days. So as long as TMY is being made in
4x5, it will be hypothetically possible to cut other sheet sizes, if enough boxes are
ordered. The big expense to Kodak is simply the master roll itself. The cutting and code
anotching machines are entirely automated. Packaging is a minor issue.

jp
19-Jan-2011, 12:46
Is a master roll what is identified by the emulsion number? E.g. I have boxes of tmy2 4x5 saying emulsions 111-114. If emulsion number can be tied to a known batch size, that's useful.

If it is, that might provide a more accurate indicator of the film volume consumed. Knowing how long inventory sits around at places like freestyle/b&h would further increase accuracy. If people start getting new emulsion batches of tmy2 every 6 months, and we knew the actual amount in that batch, bingo.

I don't think you can multiply canham's order by 12 to figure things out. Lots of people have been mulling things for months, stockpiling, and other psychology at work. Lots of people haven't ordered too, wary of the new way of doing things and they have enough to be set for a little while. I suspect there are certain times of year for people ordering LF film too, and it will take time to smooth out consumption. While less convenient than online ordering, I suspect the discussion and news of this change of style of doing business also increases interest in the film.

John Bowen
19-Jan-2011, 13:08
I purchased all of the Tmax 400 film I could get my hands on once the "discontinued" postings started. What I noticed was that each successive emulsion # had an expiration date that was 3 months later then the prior. I would deduce that Kodak was manufacturing 4 rolls of Tmax 400 sheet film per year. And then they discontinued it in 8x10 as a stock item.

John



Is a master roll what is identified by the emulsion number? E.g. I have boxes of tmy2 4x5 saying emulsions 111-114. If emulsion number can be tied to a known batch size, that's useful.

If it is, that might provide a more accurate indicator of the film volume consumed. Knowing how long inventory sits around at places like freestyle/b&h would further increase accuracy. If people start getting new emulsion batches of tmy2 every 6 months, and we knew the actual amount in that batch, bingo.

I don't think you can multiply canham's order by 12 to figure things out. Lots of people have been mulling things for months, stockpiling, and other psychology at work. Lots of people haven't ordered too, wary of the new way of doing things and they have enough to be set for a little while. I suspect there are certain times of year for people ordering LF film too, and it will take time to smooth out consumption. While less convenient than online ordering, I suspect the discussion and news of this change of style of doing business also increases interest in the film.

Jan Pedersen
19-Jan-2011, 13:30
As John i also purchased what i needed when it was available.
The last two batches, one from Badger and one from Freestyle was both emulsion # 114. I already had more than 300 sheets in stock before the announcement but felt that i had to take advantage of the lower price from the stores that had it in stock.

I hope there will be another round of group purchase in a year or two or even later as i have enough for several years now.

Drew Wiley
19-Jan-2011, 13:37
From barely more than a year of purchases I have three different emulsion numbers of
8x10 in the freezer, not counting what I've got on order from Canham, and which
predate the announcement. So Kodak must be coating TMY sheet stock fairly often.
That's good news.

Michael Kadillak
19-Jan-2011, 13:39
Keith is taking order till the end of the month, although the 10% discount coupon has
expired. By the way, a master roll for the sake of sheet film requires a different base
than small format films, so with the exception of these special cuts, would imply the
entire thing is dedicated to 4x5. Given the unique combination of fine grain, high speed,
and long scale this film delivers, it would appear to be a very popular film in 4x5. It's
becoming the new standard around here in schools who want to teach view camera
technique, just like Super-XX was in the old days. So as long as TMY is being made in
4x5, it will be hypothetically possible to cut other sheet sizes, if enough boxes are
ordered. The big expense to Kodak is simply the master roll itself. The cutting and code
anotching machines are entirely automated. Packaging is a minor issue.

Thanks Drew. Very well stated. We all made a huge step in the process of maintaining access to Kodak sheet film that will require additional work and attention but that I do not see as anywhere near a problem as some folks that have already written its obituary. I would encourage optimism and proactivity as opposed to the doom and gloom that is conveyed by relatively few that probably could not afford it anyway. Where there is a will there is always a way.

Thanks to everyone and stay tuned. There is much more to come.....

JC Kuba
19-Jan-2011, 13:53
"The big expense to Kodak is simply the master roll itself. The cutting and code
anotching machines are entirely automated. Packaging is a minor issue."

Does this mean it might be possible to combine an order of 5x7 and 8x10, so instead of having a minimum order of 218 for 8x10 or 5x7, an order can be placed with Kodak for 109 8x10 and 109 5x7 or some combination of the two?

Oren Grad
19-Jan-2011, 14:25
Does this mean it might be possible to combine an order of 5x7 and 8x10, so instead of having a minimum order of 218 for 8x10 or 5x7, an order can be placed with Kodak for 109 8x10 and 109 5x7 or some combination of the two?

No.

Resetting sizes and preparing alternate packaging is not a minor issue. As Robert Shanebrook documented recently in his "Making Kodak Film" book, at Kodak, only 4x5 is made on a dedicated, fully automated cutter. For other sizes a cutting machine needs to be set up specifically for each run, and for odd sizes, special packaging needs to be prepared as well.

Drew Wiley
19-Jan-2011, 14:53
Oren - not really much different than any other machine operation prior to the era of computerizer instant resetting (as in modern CNC programming). The machinery is automated once reset, but the fuss and overhead occurs with the manual setup for each distinct film size. That's why they have a minimum box order for each special size and can't just change the order on the fly. Most of us already know this, of course,
but for the sake of new-comers I'm just suggesting how there's not some little bald
headed guy working in the dark with a pair of scissors or paper cutter making the film one sheet at a time, nor the opposite, where someone merely punches a few buttons
on a terminal to make it all happen. It could be fully automated, but that would probably never be a realistic investment for them, and more mechanical complication
would just be one more thing to break down and require more maintenance, or require
endless software upgrades. Easy to do in theory, however. Plenty of sheet good are
cut that way now. You could take it to a plywood mill to do it, but I don't think most
of us would appreciate light leaks, scratches, and sawdust all over our film!

Armin Seeholzer
19-Jan-2011, 15:05
...and what about the 50 or 25 sheet boxes?

Cheers Armin

Oren Grad
19-Jan-2011, 17:12
Oren - not really much different than any other machine operation prior to the era of computerizer instant resetting (as in modern CNC programming). The machinery is automated once reset, but the fuss and overhead occurs with the manual setup for each distinct film size. That's why they have a minimum box order for each special size and can't just change the order on the fly.

Yup. :)

To JC Kuba: the minimum order size quoted by Kodak reflects the minimum dollar value they need to make a setup viable given their overhead, financial accounting practices, etc. Since each size needs a setup, it doesn't help to mix 5x7 and 8x10.

Michael Kadillak
19-Jan-2011, 18:12
The work continues behind the scenes on a regular basis because it needs to be completed. Like you Sandy I wish that those that think alternatively would save their comments for the "Film Is Dead" posts where they are among a few friends. This is not the place for them and the post title is reflective of this opinion. Here we want photographers to know that we love quality sheet film and as evidenced by the quick turnaround on the 8x10 Special Order, many more good things are in the works.

We continue to get very positive feedback and support from people around the globe that enjoy sheet film and are happy and interested to be part of the solution.

Cheers!

Steve Hamley
20-Jan-2011, 08:35
I think a little common sense is in order - one should not post inflammatory film comments here just as one should not post inflammatory comments about digital on fredmiranda or getdpi.

Me, I'm placing an order for 8x10 and WP today if I get time to call.

Cheers, Steve

Michael Kadillak
20-Jan-2011, 13:38
...and what about the 50 or 25 sheet boxes?

Cheers Armin

Once we get the 8x10 order processed and in the que, this is a subject that will be proactively discussed with Kodak.

jp
27-Jan-2011, 08:25
Us hedger/hoarders aren't all nuts. Scoff at us now (while you can) for owning chest freezers and blowing a big wad of money on film. I will suggest making some space in your freezer and following suit:

From Canham's facebook postings:


K. B. Canham Cameras, Inc. Due to the increase in the price of silver film manufacturers either have increased their prices or will be increasing their prices. Kodak™ has informed us that this price increase will occur the beginning of April. So, we are hoping to get a few more Co-Ops done before the increase. That means we need to have the orders complete by March 12.

Armin Seeholzer
27-Jan-2011, 12:58
Once we get the 8x10 order processed and in the que, this is a subject that will be proactively discussed with Kodak.

I hope you get it!

Thanks Armin

JC Kuba
30-Apr-2011, 11:04
I checked out Canham's facebook page for the first time. It's seems to be where they update the status of their film orders. They received the TMax 400 order from Kodak last week and are starting to ship it out.:) Here is a picture, from their facebook site, of the 332(!) boxes they got in.

jp
30-Apr-2011, 16:48
I hope more people go for this next time around. While that might look like a lot of film, what you see appears to be the whole 8x10 tmy2 production in 2011 so far.

I didn't think I ordered much (10 yellow boxes), but it looks like I'll be getting 3% of the world supply of 8x10 TMY2 for 2011 (thus far).

jeroldharter
30-Apr-2011, 18:44
I hope more people go for this next time around. While that might look like a lot of film, what you see appears to be the whole 8x10 tmy2 production in 2011 so far.

I didn't think I ordered much (10 yellow boxes), but it looks like I'll be getting 3% of the world supply of 8x10 TMY2 for 2011 (thus far).

Good points. I think 24 of those yellow boxes are mine. By rough calculations that is ~$16,000 of film sitting there and the equivalent of ~3320 rolls of 35mm film.

I wonder when they will start taking orders for the next run?