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View Full Version : brown stains on paper. unwashed fixer or developer?



SeanEsopenko
18-Nov-2010, 22:35
Some nights I get slight brown stains on the edges of my Ilford RC paper and some nights I don't. They usually show up where I handled the prints, moving them from tray to tray and to the drying racks. Sometimes I can get rid of it by rubbing the surface of the RC paper with my finger-nail, sometimes it doesn't help.

I try to be consistent in my printing process and paper handling but it's quite inconsistent when I get them. I use my fingers to transfer the paper from tray to tray. I use tongs to hold the paper down as I'm rocking a tray. I have one tong labeled for developer and one labeled for fixer. Is it unwashed fixer or unwashed developer that's causing the brown stains?

I don't have running water in the darkroom but I give it 1 minute in water, followed by 30 seconds in hypo clear, then 1 minute in fresh water, and another minute in a new batch of fresh water again. I agitate the rinsing by giving a gentle rub to the submerged paper surface for about 15 seconds on each side, then from that point forward rinsing is done by constantly rocking the tray and flipping the paper over about every 15-30 seconds.

I'll use 1L of hypo clear for about 20 8x10's and throw it out at the end of the night. I mix up fresh developer each time but I reuse 1.5 liters of fixer (ilford rapid fixer 1+9) for about 40 sheets of 8x10. I re-use the indicator stop bath until it just starts to darken under the safelight.

I give a final soak in photo-flo for about 30 seconds. I use RO water for the developer, stop bath and hypo clear. I use well water for the fixer and the final photo-flo rinse. Our well water's drinkable, it's just so high in calcium it tastes salty.

These brown stains have been so frustrating. I'll run a set of prints, then when I get in the house and inspect them under good light, sometimes I lose 25% of the edition to the staining. I need to get this solved before I can have confidence in selling my prints.

PViapiano
19-Nov-2010, 00:34
Sean,

Eliminate using your fingers. Use separate tongs for each bath as well...

Louie Powell
19-Nov-2010, 05:02
Two points about your process:

1. I'm not totally clear about the washing sequence. If I understand correctly, each print individually gets one minute in fresh water followed by one minute in Hypoclear, and then two successive baths in fresh water with agitation. If that is what you meant to say, then that's marginally OK. I might prefer a bit more washing, but

But if your process is that all prints together get one minute in fresh water, one minute in Hypoclear, and two one-minute baths with agitation, then you need to increase the number of final baths. I would want at least five baths post-hypoclear - six or seven would be better.

2. The other issue is the use of fingers. You can easily pick up chemicals on your fingertips, and when you use your fingers to move prints from one tray to the next, you will contaminate those prints. Use tongs instead.

Gem Singer
19-Nov-2010, 07:42
I believe that you can trace the problem to the well water you are using for the fixer.

Brownish stains could be caused by un-fixed developer remaining on the print surface that show up after the prints are dry.

Your fixer might not be doing it's job due to the alkaline ph of your well water.

Try mixing fixer with distilled water.

After the prints are properly fixed, they can be washed in well water.

IanG
19-Nov-2010, 07:55
The stains are dichroic fog caused by fixer on the fingers contaminating the prints before or during development.

You can't have unfixed developer Gem :D Developer traces diffuse out during the stop bath and fixing stage but there's no interaction unless the fixer is neutral or alkali.

Washing fingers in the rinse/wash water's not sufficient, they need a good wash or rinse. The stains can be removed easily using Farmers reducer.

Ian

BetterSense
19-Nov-2010, 08:45
I used to get this (I only use RC paper). I stopped using my fingers to handle prints and only use segregated tongs. The problem seems to have gone away so I'm guessing that it is caused by getting the print contaminated somehow.

SeanEsopenko
19-Nov-2010, 08:53
I try to keep the RC paper from being in water too long so I keep it to only about 3.5 minutes of washing/hypo-clear. Each print's getting washed on it's own with fresh water being supplied 3 times.

the pH of our well water sits around 8.1. It's extremely alkaline so I guess that would be causing the fixer to be neutral or alkaline like you said. Tonight is my next time in the dark room so I'll try using RO water for the fixer, too. I'll try to handle the paper with my fingers less. I'm printing 18x20's fiber paper tonight and last time I used tongs for fiber I was kinda clumsy and tore the paper a few times. We'll see how it goes.

This farmer's reducer, b&h says they don't sell it any more. Is this the same stuff?

photographer's formulary spotting reducer II for paper (B&H) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/123432-REG/Photographers_Formulary_05_0060_Spotting_Reducer_II_Retouch.html)

IanG
19-Nov-2010, 09:28
pH 8.1 isn't very alkali at all and most good fixers have more than enough buffering to cope with that, it's not the problem.

That Reducer is fine but you just need some Potassium Ferricyanide and make a 1% solution use that to bleach the stains and rinse and re-fix, wash etc.

Ian

Oren Grad
19-Nov-2010, 09:37
Sean, if you haven't already done so you should test the adequacy of your wash:

http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-153/RESIDUAL-HYPO-TEST/Detail.bok

http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/formulary_tech/03-0150.pdf

Merg Ross
19-Nov-2010, 09:57
Using tongs with 18x20 fiber paper sounds like a bad idea. Instead, I would practice the use of thumb and index finger to transfer prints from tray to tray. I learned this technique while using single weight papers. Tongs are fine for smaller sizes of paper.

SeanEsopenko
19-Nov-2010, 10:53
So to confirm, it's developer that's causing the brown staining? It's either contaminated by developer from my fingers during the fixing or washing stage, or it's due to not enough time being spent in the fixer or the fixer being exhausted?

If that's the case I can concentrate my efforts when improving my handling procedures the next time I print.

John Berry
19-Nov-2010, 11:02
Ditch the tongs. You already established your ok with having your hands in the developer. Use hands as you would tongs to stir. By the time it's ready to pull any residuals will be effectively diluted out of concern. Works for me. This is all predicated on hands being cleaned and dried enough to handle the surface of the next virgin piece of paper. The stains are the prints way tattling on us. Stains are usually proportional to the satisfaction of the print. Part of the satisfaction, for me, is getting something you visualized from a medium that can foil you at many stages. Did you win in the battle to beat the light out in the field, beat the dark developing the neg, only to give it all up in the dim, cuz you won't wash your hands?

IanG
19-Nov-2010, 11:11
So to confirm, it's developer that's causing the brown staining? It's either contaminated by developer from my fingers during the fixing or washing stage, or it's due to not enough time being spent in the fixer or the fixer being exhausted?

If that's the case I can concentrate my efforts when improving my handling procedures the next time I print.


No it's fixer that's causing the stain from your fingers during handling the print prior to & during development, I've done it once or twice myself, as recently as last week.

I slide my prints into the fixer from the stop-bath often with my other hand so there's no developer on it. It only happens when I don't rinse my fingers twice, first in the wash/holding tray and then in fresh water :D

Ian

SeanEsopenko
19-Nov-2010, 11:20
No it's fixer that's causing the stain from your fingers during handling the print prior to & during development, I've done it once or twice myself, as recently as last week.

I slide my prints into the fixer from the stop-bath often with my other hand so there's no developer on it. It only happens when I don't rinse my fingers twice, first in the wash/holding tray and then in fresh water :D

Ian

Ah... I'm going to have a bowl of soapy water and a fresh towel every time I print from now on. All the browning seems to happen where I handled the paper to place it in the easel, on the same edge every time. Thanks everyone for the enlightening advice. All of this is going to help a lot! I'll see how it goes the next few times I print.

John Berry
19-Nov-2010, 11:39
Ah... I'm going to have a bowl of soapy water and a fresh towel every time I print from now on. All the browning seems to happen where I handled the paper to place it in the easel, on the same edge every time. Thanks everyone for the enlightening advice. All of this is going to help a lot! I'll see how it goes the next few times I print. As was discussed one night here, baby diapers seemed to be the best as far as fibers and lint released when used.

SeanEsopenko
19-Nov-2010, 12:14
As was discussed one night here, baby diapers seemed to be the best as far as fibers and lint released when used.

You mean wiping your hands off on them after washing?

PViapiano
19-Nov-2010, 13:02
Sean,

Are you resisting tongs? I don't know why you insist on using your fingers?

Two things to think about:

1. Continuous derma-contact with developer chemicals can create a contact dermatitus condition that accumulates with each exposure, and can even go so far as to prevent you being near open chemicals. I have two acquaintances that this has happened to and they had to give up the darkroom entirely. Everyone is different, but this one is so easy to remedy. Use tongs.

2. All you really need are two tongs if you use a water stop bath and an alkaline fixer, such as TF-4 or 5. One pair of tongs for the developer, which you will use to put the print in the stop bath, then use the same tongs to transfer to the fixer, without touching those tongs to the fixer itself. Use the fixer tongs to transfer to your water holding bath.

John Berry
19-Nov-2010, 13:21
You mean wiping your hands off on them after washing? Yes, whatever towel your using leave the fuzzys out.

IanG
19-Nov-2010, 14:19
Sean,

Are you resisting tongs? I don't know why you insist on using your fingers?

Two things to think about:

1. Continuous derma-contact with developer chemicals can create a contact dermatitus condition that accumulates with each exposure, and can even go so far as to prevent you being near open chemicals. I have two acquaintances that this has happened to and they had to give up the darkroom entirely. Everyone is different, but this one is so easy to remedy. Use tongs.

2. All you really need are two tongs if you use a water stop bath and an alkaline fixer, such as TF-4 or 5. One pair of tongs for the developer, which you will use to put the print in the stop bath, then use the same tongs to transfer to the fixer, without touching those tongs to the fixer itself. Use the fixer tongs to transfer to your water holding bath.

Ron Mowrey who designed TF-4 and 5 recommends using an Acid stop bath with them, you will get Dichroic fog with a water rinse and an Alkali or Neutral fixer.

Modern developing agents are not known for contact dermatitis, purer Metol put an end to that many years ago (before WWII) and Phenidone or Dimezone are far better anyway in that respect..

Ian

PViapiano
20-Nov-2010, 00:23
I know that Ron recommends a stop but the instructions on the package says no stop needed. A running water stop is best, but I empty and refill the tray once or twice during a session to keep the water fresh. Never ever had a problem with dichroic fog.

Metol may be purer but people are still getting contact dermatitis from darkroom chemicals. It just makes good health-sense to keep your hands out of chems.

bob carnie
20-Nov-2010, 08:21
Sean

If you go to a Medical Supply company get some gloves, I go through tons of them and if you buy in bulk they are cheap and really worth it . at least to me.

I hate tongs , always have, for years wore no gloves* stupidly thinking it a badge of honour* I do not think that bare hands in Dev is good practice.

A little trick that may or may not help with hand processing, every single person I have every trained wet printing will put the print into the dev, and when face down slightly touch the print with their finger ends to put under chemicals, they will swear up and down they did not do this and the results are small dimples much like orange peel or the dimples on my ass.

To avoid the dimples, I now always process two prints at a time with the prints back to back. Not one worker it seems will touch the emulsion of the print, but the paper back seems fair game.

This does mean when making final prints I do two prints , but this allows me the freedom to play a bit with dodge and burn or contrast. After starting this I get perfect emulsion which is a blessing.


Bob

Gem Singer
20-Nov-2010, 09:00
After re-reading the OP's original question, it seems that he is handling print paper with fingers that are contaminated with chemicals. Finger prints on the edges.

There is no running water in his darkroom, therefore it is difficult to wash off any residual chemicals that might have gotten on his hands.

Rinsing hands under running water and drying them on a clean towel before taking a fresh sheet of print paper out of it's package will solve the problem.

Merely wearing gloves or handling wet prints with tongs won't.

bob carnie
20-Nov-2010, 09:05
I should have said that I throw the gloves out after every run through the chemicals.
I buy the gloves in the thousand lot at a good price.
Kind of like a doctor will change after every rectal exam , so will I.

SeanEsopenko
20-Nov-2010, 09:14
After re-reading the OP's original question, it seems that he is handling print paper with fingers that are contaminated with chemicals. Finger prints on the edges.

There is no running water in his darkroom, therefore it is difficult to wash off any residual chemicals that might have gotten on his hands.

Rinsing hands under running water and drying them on a clean towel before taking a fresh sheet of print paper out of it's package will solve the problem.

Merely wearing gloves or handling wet prints with tongs won't.

Yeap this solved it. Printed last night with a dish of soapy water and a couple lint-free rags (same types I used back in my printmaking days).


Sean

If you go to a Medical Supply company get some gloves, I go through tons of them and if you buy in bulk they are cheap and really worth it . at least to me.

I hate tongs , always have, for years wore no gloves* stupidly thinking it a badge of honour* I do not think that bare hands in Dev is good practice.

A little trick that may or may not help with hand processing, every single person I have every trained wet printing will put the print into the dev, and when face down slightly touch the print with their finger ends to put under chemicals, they will swear up and down they did not do this and the results are small dimples much like orange peel or the dimples on my ass.

To avoid the dimples, I now always process two prints at a time with the prints back to back. Not one worker it seems will touch the emulsion of the print, but the paper back seems fair game.

This does mean when making final prints I do two prints , but this allows me the freedom to play a bit with dodge and burn or contrast. After starting this I get perfect emulsion which is a blessing.


Bob

I thought about this just before your clarification. Putting on a fresh pair of gloves would make things super easy. What's your source for disposable nitril gloves? I've seen them at $40 a box which is quite pricey.

I printed 16x20 tonight which is still pretty large for me. I've been putting the paper face down initially into the tray so I don't have to worry as much about the paper curling out of the water's surface. I wait for it to flatten out then flip it over carefully. I find that when moving the paper from tray to tray, flipping it, etc, it's risky and I have to be careful because I can put deep dimple in the paper doing that, too.

I'm thinking the developer should be good in an airtight bottle for two weeks after mixing so next time I'll just mix up more developer and fill the 20x24 trays even deeper. Reuse it for the next time.

matthew klos
22-Nov-2010, 18:58
Buy yourself a box of gloves.