Where to begin with digital negatives?

[John Brady]

I know this has been discussed in the past but I thought it would be nice to have an up to date discussion on this.

For background, I shoot 8x10 color and black and white. I do my own processing of both and then scan on a creo and print on an epson 9900.

The last couple of years I have been shooting primarily color but feel a strong desire to get back to black and white. This time around though I want to incorporate my analog and digital process with a final output being analog.

I want to be able to make large prints eventually, in the 30x40 range.

I have no clue where to begin so any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


first off is it worth perusing, are any of you doing this and are you happy with the results?

Are there good current books on this? I have seen some older books such as one by Danny Burkholder (sp?) called the digital negative. I am guessing there are more current techniques.

I haven't done traditional darkroom printing in many years, I would prefer not to have to buy an 8x10 enlarger but in the end that may be the only answer.

Thanks in advance!
__________________
www.timeandlight.com

[Laura_Campbell]

You could get in touch with Mark Nelson of Precision Digital Negatives based out of Chicago. He has an ebook out for making digital negatives.
http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/

[Brian Stein]

I am not quite sure where you are going with this: hybrid workflow vs contact printing?
Hybrid workflow would be something like scan 8x10, do stuff on computer, output through printer on 30x40 size. Contact printing would be something like scan 8x10, do stuff on computer, output through printer onto transparent film in 30 x 40 (!?) size, then contact print.
In general digital negatives are related to the latter process, often for use in alt. process work.

[John Brady]

Thanks Laura, I'll check that out.

Brian, sorry, I tried to describe my current workflow as scanned film, adjusted digitally and printed digitally. For this venture I want to print analog as in traditional silver contact print which has been digitally corrected or alternate process prints which have been digitally adjusted and then printed larger than the original 8x10 film.

Are any of you doing this and if so how is the quality compared to an 8x10 with an enlarger and traditional process?

Thanks

[D. Bryant]

Thanks Laura, I'll check that out.

Brian, sorry, I tried to describe my current workflow as scanned film, adjusted digitally and printed digitally. For this venture I want to print analog as in traditional silver contact print which has been digitally corrected or alternate process prints which have been digitally adjusted and then printed larger than the original 8x10 film.

Are any of you doing this and if so how is the quality compared to an 8x10 with an enlarger and traditional process?

Thanks

My experience has been that silver gelatin contact prints made from digital ink jet negatives are inferior compared to contact prints made directly from film. They lack the sharp details and easily reveal the dither of the ink jet printer.

You may wish to contact Bob Carnie at Elevator labs in Toronto. They have a Lambda printer that will output directly to film from digital files which you could contact print.

Inkjet negatives work well for hand coated processes such palladium prints.

Don Bryant

[John Brady]

Thanks Don, Thats the kind of information I am looking for.

[Richard M. Coda]

I agree with Don, BUT, I prefer to (post Photoshop) have my file re-output to a new silver negative that I can enlarge or contact print. Results are indistinguishable from prints made with in-camera negatives. I have even made an 11x14 contact neg from a 35mm film neg (WTC on my website) and a 4x5 neg that I can enlarge quite a bit from a DSLR image (the flag on my website).

[Jeff Bannow]

I agree with Don, BUT, I prefer to (post Photoshop) have my file re-output to a new silver negative that I can enlarge or contact print. Results are indistinguishable from prints made with in-camera negatives. I have even made an 11x14 contact neg from a 35mm film neg (WTC on my website) and a 4x5 neg that I can enlarge quite a bit from a DSLR image (the flag on my website).

What are the costs associated with something like that?

[Richard M. Coda]

What are the costs associated with something like that?

It is expensive, and I have posted about this before... and people have complained about the price. I have no problem spending money for a superior product/service. I'd like to know what an inkjet negative costs (including all the trial and error negs) after a final negative has been made.

Albumen Works is who I have used in the past but their website (and pricing) are under re-construction. I have attached an old price list.

There's a new place (to me) called Reflective Image Studios. They have quoted me prices of $50 for 4x5, $100 for 8x10, and $150 for 11x14 on TMax 100. They can also go up to 16x20 but I did not ask. You can contact Ludo directly at ludo@reflectiveimagestudios.com

[Jeff Bannow]

It is expensive, and I have posted about this before... and people have complained about the price. I have no problem spending money for a superior product/service. I'd like to know what an inkjet negative costs (including all the trial and error negs) after a final negative has been made.

Albumen Works is who I have used in the past but their website (and pricing) are under re-construction. I have attached an old price list.

There's a new place (to me) called Reflective Image Studios. They have quoted me prices of $50 for 4x5, $100 for 8x10, and $150 for 11x14 on TMax 100. They can also go up to 16x20 but I did not ask. You can contact Ludo directly at ludo@reflectiveimagestudios.com

Thanks for that - not cheap, but not horrible for the occasional job either.

[Brian Ellis]

My experience has been that silver gelatin contact prints made from digital ink jet negatives are inferior compared to contact prints made directly from film. They lack the sharp details and easily reveal the dither of the ink jet printer.

You may wish to contact Bob Carnie at Elevator labs in Toronto. They have a Lambda printer that will output directly to film from digital files which you could contact print.

Inkjet negatives work well for hand coated processes such palladium prints.

Don Bryant

I have limited experience with digital negatives, probably less than you. But I attended a Mark Nelson lecture where he displayed his prints made from 35mm film that was digitally enlarged to 11x14 or so and then contact printed. I was doing 8x10 contact prints from 8x10 in-camera film at the time. So I thought I had a pretty good idea of what a good contact print looked like. I saw no decrease in quality of Mark's prints relative to a traditional contact print. His were stunning.

[D. Bryant]

I have limited experience with digital negatives, probably less than you. But I attended a Mark Nelson lecture where he displayed his prints made from 35mm film that was digitally enlarged to 11x14 or so and then contact printed. I was doing 8x10 contact prints from 8x10 in-camera film at the time. So I thought I had a pretty good idea of what a good contact print looked like. I saw no decrease in quality of Mark's prints relative to a traditional contact print. His were stunning.

First of all I know Mark and I'm very familiar with PDN, Mark's digital negative system, however I've yet to see any silver gelatin prints made from ink jet digital negatives that match print quality with those made from in camera negatives. I've seen some very good ones, made some very good ones but none that match contact prints from film.

But I do know that Mark has his mojo going for making prints from polymer gravure plates and from the online examples I've seen they look very good, extremely smooth without any hint of plate tone, ink jet printer dither or grain. I also know he has at least a couple of photographers that have done one on one workshops with him that print silver gelatin as their only print media and they swear by his results. So I have to conclude he isn't sharing all of his knowledge public-ally or in his eBook or I'm not holding my mouth right.

I'll see him in March and I'll ask him then what his secret is an I'll also cross post the message in his Yahoo PDN forum to see what he may have to comment.

Don

[John Brady]

I purchased Mark Nelson's PDN e-book last night. It looks like it will be a great resource.
Thanks to all of you for the advice!

www.timeandlight.com

[coops]

Hello John. I saw your work at the downtown show in Gainesville Fl last year, very nice. I have Nelsons PDN but found it a little confusing and really time consuming (my fault, not the process) and gave up on it. After some time I came accross Dan Burkholters site and purchased his $20 template and a box of Pictorico. Within an hour I had a DN that printed quite well. I was impressed. With really sharp negs, a great scan and print I would think you could get close to a contact print. Some say not, others say as a good as. I have an Epson 3800 and did see some dither pattern on some prints, not all though. I think it depends on the subject I think.
Personally I want to hone my skills in the darkroom using a b&w negative, but plan on using the template for some alternative printing in the new year.
By the way, Burkholder has a short video available on his site that explains how to tweak the template if needed. The only testing I did was min. time for max. black on the paper I was using and then 4 5x7 prints to tweak the curve.
Good luck.

[Jon Shiu]

Hi, the HP people have developed a free digital negative system for their Z3200 printer. There was some discussion of it on this forum a while back.

My own concern with the digital processes versus traditional silver gelatin is lack of tone quality, ie lack of rich and vibrant tones. There is a flatness of tone to some digital-process prints.

Jon

[John Brady]

Hello John. I saw your work at the downtown show in Gainesville Fl last year, very nice. I have Nelsons PDN but found it a little confusing and really time consuming (my fault, not the process) and gave up on it. After some time I came accross Dan Burkholters site and purchased his $20 template and a box of Pictorico. Within an hour I had a DN that printed quite well. I was impressed. With really sharp negs, a great scan and print I would think you could get close to a contact print. Some say not, others say as a good as. I have an Epson 3800 and did see some dither pattern on some prints, not all though. I think it depends on the subject I think.

Hi Coops, thanks for the suggestion on Dan B. I will check it out, I am trying to learn as much as I can before I dive into it. So far it looks like it will be a lot of fun. I hope to make it work for Silver Gelatin contacts as well as explore some alternative process.

By the way I'll be back at Gainesville November 6th I hope to see you there.

John Shiu, thanks for your thoughts on digital negatives too.

www.timeandlight.com

[D. Bryant]

Hi, the HP people have developed a free digital negative system for their Z3200 printer.

Free for the price of a Z3200 printer!:)


My own concern with the digital processes versus traditional silver gelatin is lack of tone quality, ie lack of rich and vibrant tones. There is a flatness of tone to some digital-process prints.


That's a deficiency of the digital negative not the methodology.

Don Bryant

[sanking]

Hi, the HP people have developed a free digital negative system for their Z3200 printer. There was some discussion of it on this forum a while back.

My own concern with the digital processes versus traditional silver gelatin is lack of tone quality, ie lack of rich and vibrant tones. There is a flatness of tone to some digital-process prints.

Jon

I make carbon transfer prints from digital negatives, using both Mark Nelson's PDN system and QTR profiles. Carbon transfer prints can be as detailed and as sharp, or sharper, than silver gelatin prints and since my carbon prints are virtually grain free and without any dither pattern I tend to believe that with good methodology it should be possible to make excellent silver gelatin prints from digital negatives. In fact I have made a few myself with AZO paper, though I am not currently working with that media.

If prints you have seen from digital negatives appear flat that would be due to the specific way the individual made the negatives, and/or the way the print was made, not the methodology itself. It would be wrong to assume that excellent prints can not be made from digital negatives just because the prints made by one individual lacked rich and vibrant tones or appeared flat.

Sandy

[Jon Shiu]

re: lack of tonality in digital prints
I believe there is a richness and liveliness to tones in the traditional silver gelatin print that is not able to be reproduced in the digital process (and not in some alternative processes that I have seen, except albumen.) I believe it is the microscopic variations, caused by film grain, within a given tone that gives a tone this depth and vitality. This is not a matter of sharpness or detail, as you can have a rich tone in a out of focus area. This is a somewhat subtle thing, and absolutely gorgeous prints can be made with the digital processes, but it is a concern to my own work. For many people and photographs this type of tonality may be not be important.

Here is something I read by Ctein in his 10/21/10 article on The Online Photographer web site that describes a similar observation with the problems of tonal quality:
"The big problem I have consistently seen with digital printing, regardless of the source of the image, is that it suppresses subtle gradations and tonality—"texture," if you will. Surfaces that should show subtle patterns and variations in tone and color come out a lot flatter and more two-dimensional with digital printing. Kind of like the colors in a cartoon cel—they are accurate and the edges are just fine, but everything within the lines is painted the same color (or tone, in the case of black-and-white printing). I have not yet assembled a coherent theory of what's going on, but the observations seem unequivocal."
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/10/a-perfunctory-guide-part-iii.html

I myself believe that the film grain adds in some type of texture that enhances tone and that this is lost in the digital translation.

Jon

[sanking]

r

Here is something I read by Ctein in his 10/21/10 article on The Online Photographer web site that describes a similar observation with the problems of tonal quality:
"The big problem I have consistently seen with digital printing, regardless of the source of the image, is that it suppresses subtle gradations and tonality—"texture," if you will. Surfaces that should show subtle patterns and variations in tone and color come out a lot flatter and more two-dimensional with digital printing. Kind of like the colors in a cartoon cel—they are accurate and the edges are just fine, but everything within the lines is painted the same color (or tone, in the case of black-and-white printing). I have not yet assembled a coherent theory of what's going on, but the observations seem unequivocal."
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/10/a-perfunctory-guide-part-iii.html


Jon

I find observations like those made by Ctein much too general. They may be true of the work of some photographers but are not relevant to others, and for reasons that don't relate to a lack of tonality. Certainly the work of a photographer like Sebastian Salgado depends to some extent on grain to enhance texture and sharpness, but grain is not very important in my opinion in the majority of large format work. In fact, in my experience most LF photographers work to minimize grain at every step of the way because it interferes with tonality rather than enhances it.

In my opinion the concept of digital itself is being used here with too broad a stroke in the context of this thread since many photographers work with film scans to make digital negatives. And when you scan film the grain is essentially retained, especially with a high resolution scan. So while there may be a difference between a pt/pd print made with an in camera negative and one made with a digital negative of a film scan the difference will most likely not be due to grain itself.

In any event most of us who have worked both with silver gelatin printing and with the various forms of digital printing, including the hybrid method of digital negative with alternative processes, would agree that no process is exactly like another, and differences that one person hangs his/her hat on may well not matter to another.

Sandy King

[bob carnie]

Here is a silver gelatin lith print in Moresh chemisty.Paper is Ilford Warmtone

Film is ortho, exposed on a lambda , contact exposure with enlarger light.
Print size is 16x20 could be 30 x 40 for that matter same exposure

Original is a captured with Cannon Mark 3 digital capture, processed in PS and them made into an enlarged neg.

The ugly filter was probably on when the picture of me was made, normally I am confused for Brad Pitt.

[Richard M. Coda]

Bob... can this procedure (ortho film) be used for regular silver contact printing? Platinum? And the film is available in sizes up to 30x40?

Thanks,

Rich

[bob carnie]

Richard
I have made film for carbon, platinum, gum , and others, and we are testing this month.
I will make this print on silver and report back. For me its a second step as I can image directly onto silver paper so I am not sure why I would go the digital neg route. For those with limited darkrooms making contacts may be much easier and practical and this enlarge film may be the ticket.

It works really well for lith and I believe a great for young photographers, not using film, but being able to make real silver lith prints from there cameras.
I have been asked to print a silver gelatin lith show for a photographer in NY, and this test you see will blow him away ..He is using a Cannon Mark 3 but loves silver lith, you just cannot mimic it with inkjet, many have tried and failed. myself included.

Down the road I will be able to make 30x40 without breathing hard, since once the machine is calibrated the rip dosen't care what size I print at.

Some day 40 x50 film for contact, looking for a big as Nu Arc right now.

regards
Bob

[Richard M. Coda]

Thanks Bob.

I love being able to "salvage" negatives that are un-printable in the darkroom with (to this point) LVT negs and print them myself in the darkroom. This looks like it might work for making really large contact prints. I would be starting from 4x5, 8x10 and even 11x14" in-camera negs (for making enlargements form 11x14s).

Is there a baseline dpi required (300 dpi at final size)?

Thanks,

Rich

[bob carnie]

400ppi is what we image at.
I would think this process is exactly like LVT negs as the Lambda was built right after the LVT recorders, anyone owning an LVT in a commercial business, purchased Lambda or Lightjet.


Thanks Bob.

I love being able to "salvage" negatives that are un-printable in the darkroom with (to this point) LVT negs and print them myself in the darkroom. This looks like it might work for making really large contact prints. I would be starting from 4x5, 8x10 and even 11x14" in-camera negs (for making enlargements form 11x14s).

Is there a baseline dpi required (300 dpi at final size)?

Thanks,

Rich

[Henry Carter]

Bob's work necessitates some refinement in the use of the term "digital negative".

Until recently "digital negative" implied an ink-jet "negative" printed on a transparent substrate. We will now call this a "digital ink-jet negative".

Bob is making enlarged negatives from digital files printed onto actual light sensitive film exposed in a Lambda. This form of of digital negative should be called a "digital film negative".

[Richard M. Coda]

400ppi is what we image at.
I would think this process is exactly like LVT negs as the Lambda was built right after the LVT recorders, anyone owning an LVT in a commercial business, purchased Lambda or Lightjet.

Bob. What would something like this cost? Say for a 16x20 neg, a 20x24 neg?

Is there any way I could see a sample, even from a test throw away?

Thanks,

Rich

[sanking]

Bob. What would something like this cost? Say for a 16x20 neg, a 20x24 neg?

Is there any way I could see a sample, even from a test throw away?

Thanks,

Rich

I am one of the persons involved in testing Bob's Lambda negatives, with carbon transfer in my case. He sent me down a large negative of an image which I had previously printed several ways, including direct inkjet print and a carbon print from an inkjet negatives.

The negative printed very well and I sent it back to Bob along with the print. Sharpness was excellent, as was grain. However, because of the nature of the way relief enhances the appearance of sharpness in carbon transfer prints that have a lot of fine detail I found it very difficult to come to any conclusion based on comparison of the print I had previously made with an inkjet negative (Epson 3800) and the one made with the Lambda negative. Also, density and contrast was off just a tad, which farther complicated the comparison. But there is no question but that negatives from the Lambda on the Ortho film work very, very well. I believe this method definitely deserves consideration for those planning to make contact prints with silver or other processes on smooth papers.

Sandy

[bob carnie]

Richard

For you I will make an neg from your file, go to elevator website and follow the propaganda for loading to our ftp. There will be no charge but I expect a print back to show your results and your views on what could be done to modify for your darkroom.
It will take awhile as I imaged over 20 negatives for various artist using different processes and until they all have a chance to print on their preferred materials and give back a reply and show me the prints I am not moving forward with more film.
I imagine the next round will be imaged within four weeks and I will include you in the mix.
Right now make the file 400 ppi sharpen as you normally do adobe RGB 8bit flattened tiff. I will do nothing other than invert and print out after our calibration is in balance for the ortho film. I convert to black and white using apply image and blending channels and curve shaping before going to grey scale and dumping, if you have a good method then do so if you are starting with digital capture.
For silver print I just imagined a good looking fibre print on screen with L - 5 readings for shadow with detail and L-93 readings for highlight with detail .
This gave me a pretty punchy negative which worked well for lith.
As a test you may have to go to a lower grade but will get you into the ball park and help you decide if this is a worthy process.



At this stage Richard I cannot give you a price, as I am only in Beta stage and not even sure if it is wise to market this. My preference is to have master classes here in Toronto with people like Sandy involved with me , so not only would the artist purchase their film directly from the manufacturer, but also proof out there work so when going home they are convinced the film is good as it worked in Toronto.
I would probably have a flat fee for the usage of my equipment and technicians working long shifts with the photographers while they are here, as well cover the fee associated of bringing up my Southern buddy up to oversee the process.
Sending film to people can really bite me in the ass, if the worker is missing a key element of the workflow and blames me for crappy work. The internet can be a brutal place for a vendor with one single voice not happy with me or my company. It has happened here before to me here on this forum, and I can tell you it was a really painful experience.

I imagine after the first initial visit to Toronto and both parties are happy with the workflow then I can imagine sending film to qualified users who get the whole process. By then the fee structure would make sense to both parties, once calibrated it is a dead nuts easy thing for us so our price should be very reasonable , but today we are not there.

I must stress I have clients with projects ready to go for my alt work and I am really hoping to work with a few schools with Lambdas or digital devices and wet darkrooms so that the younger artist get hooked on alt printing and film. Once this comes to life I would imagine other vendors popping up to service local photographers.






Bob. What would something like this cost? Say for a 16x20 neg, a 20x24 neg?

Is there any way I could see a sample, even from a test throw away?

Thanks,

Rich

[Richard M. Coda]

Hi Bob:

Thank you for the generous offer. I will get my neg scanned this week and PM you when I am ready to upload. It is an 11x14" BW neg. And, of course, I will send a print and my feedback.

Thanks again.

Rich

Rich

[bob carnie]

I await your file.

Hi Bob:

Thank you for the generous offer. I will get my neg scanned this week and PM you when I am ready to upload. It is an 11x14" BW neg. And, of course, I will send a print and my feedback.

Thanks again.

Rich

Rich