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View Full Version : Uneven development - Pyroact HD with JOBO 1520 & 120 film



Matus Kalisky
18-Oct-2010, 00:34
Hello,

After longer time of using Pyrocat HD as my main developer I got recently problems with uneven development with Jobo 1520 drum with inversion agitation.

Let me first describe my development procedure then I will post some samples:

****
- I develop two 120 films on one reel inside the JOBO 1520 drum. I do use thatlittle plastic piece to avoid accidental overlapping of films

- Films I hve developed concern Ilford Delta 400, Delta 100, FP4+. Apart from slightly longer development the procedure for Delta 400 is very similar to that of Delta 100 and FP4+.

- Please note - all these photos were taken with Mamiya 6 what implies that top part of the image was pointing to the top of the JOBO drum what means that what is horizontal on film was horizontal inside the drum as well.

- Development temperature is mostly 21 degrees Celsius and I do take care to keep the temperature of subsequent liquids within 1 degree.

***

Development for fp4+ and Delata 100 films (I use the same times):
1) 4 minutes prewash in clean water
2) Pyrocat HD 1:1:100, 500 ml, 9 minutes total time, inversions first 45 seconds than 4 inversions at the end of 3 and 6 minute.
3) 4 minutes water stop - inversions first 60 seconds than every minute a few
4) Ilford fixer (1:4) 10 minutes - inversions every minute
5) 10 minutes was using the JOBO hose (so it is continuos)
6) 1 minute in Photo Flo
7) hang over night to dry (in our bathroom)

***

My questions:

1) this looks very much like insufficient agitation. I did use 4 inversions every minute in the past and got better results, but I would prefer the 3 minute intervals. Should I do more inversions than 4 per agitation interval to avoid this problems?

2)Many use semi stand method with Jobo drums - do I do anything else than agitation wrong?

3) What is your approach with Pyrocat HD and Jobo drums? Should I change times or dilution or .. ? I would be interested to use a slow motor base, but none on them market are built for drums as small as Jobo 1520.

***

Now the samples:

Please note that there are large versions on flickr if you click on the images. The full series is HERE (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31007239@N06/sets/72157625049345535/) (5 more images than linked below).

I am showing the worst ones here, but most of these films have slightly darker top and bottom edges with fine structure.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5086094320_36d44f5384.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5086094320_8d21d55692_o.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5086094472_b68a5a4d47.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5086094472_73c1ef07e6_o.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5085497301_cb6a148812.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5085497301_1cd183a07e_o.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5085497611_13fd962961.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5085497611_a698a9e4cd_o.jpg)


***

Your help will be much appreciated ...

Matus Kalisky
18-Oct-2010, 00:35
two more samples:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5086095154_b5a7f32ecf.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5086095154_cdf8d1b38a_o.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5085497969_dc78c745de.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5085497969_5e8a7a1ecc_o.jpg)

domaz
18-Oct-2010, 08:31
I think using inverse agitation on a 1520 tank could be your problem.. these tanks were not designed for inverse agitation they were designed for rotary processing. Why not roll it? I used to put mine on a cheap uniroller before I got a Jobo and it worked great.

eman
19-Oct-2010, 05:42
I've used the 1500 series via inversion when I found that Microdol X and Tmax 100 were not compatible w/rotary processing and created odd marks near the 35mm sprocket holes. I had no problems with the inversion method (5 secs of agitation every 30 secs) w/that film/developer/tank combo nor other developers but Pyrocat HD, as I understand it, is 'designed' to be used in rotary.
I would certainly go for more inversions/agitation as this appears to be uneven development but offhand I don't know what that amount would be with PHD.

Matus Kalisky
25-Oct-2010, 01:55
OK, it really seems that the reason is insufficient agitation. The question is whether I should go back to agitation every minute, or just add more inversions after 3 and 6 minute. I know I have to test, but would be interested in your opinion.

eman
25-Oct-2010, 07:01
Unless you can find documented recommendations for any kind of semi-stand development, I would start with every minute agitation at the least unless you find evidence to the contrary.

I don't know of any reason to try to decrease agitation except for the decrease in effort. If previously you had made 4 inversions per minute and then cut back to this semi-stand procedure, that is a major change.

Pyrocat HD allows for the use of stop bath which extends the life of your fixer.

Also, the recommended time for Ilford rapid fixer is 2-5 minutes so you're going way over the time needed there. Probably won't hurt anything but is completely unnecessary. I do 5 minutes for all my films no matter what the developer. For pyro development I use rapid fix without the hardner added.

Brian C. Miller
26-Oct-2010, 12:33
How are you performing your inversion agitation? Is it end-over-end, or sort of a side roll wrist action?

You may want to simply be more vigorous when you agitate. Maybe not like what Kodak recommended for processing film in Technidol (martini shake), but get more movement in the fluid.

David Schaller
26-Oct-2010, 15:07
FWIW, I do three inversions every minute, and have not had inconsistent development. Why don't you try that as a first step?
Dave

Matus Kalisky
27-Oct-2010, 02:13
Thank you, I will certainly go back to agitation every minute.

Yes - "one agitation" means turning the drum down and up. I usually turn the drum around its rotation axis a bit after every inversion.

I wanted to try semi-stand to get stronger effect on highlights (saving them). But probably JOBO is not really suitable for that.

My fixing times - I found that longer times are needed to completely wash away the magenta colored dyes with Delta 100 & 400 films (and also TMax films which I do not use now). Even with fresh fixer and rigorous agitation I find that 5 minutes will leave a magenta base on the films.

But I am wondering why/how do I manage to nearly fully wash away the imprints (film name and frame numbers) from FP4+ films. Id does not seem to happen with Delta 100 & 400.

Brian C. Miller
27-Oct-2010, 08:53
The "imprints" on the edge of the film are made at the factory with a light printer. How they look depends on how you develop the film.

eman
27-Oct-2010, 11:52
Thank you, I will certainly go back to agitation every minute.

Yes - "one agitation" means turning the drum down and up. I usually turn the drum around its rotation axis a bit after every inversion.

I wanted to try semi-stand to get stronger effect on highlights (saving them). But probably JOBO is not really suitable for that.

I'd start with 5 secs agitation every minute as 1 inversion is not enough.

[/QUOTE]My fixing times - I found that longer times are needed to completely wash away the magenta colored dyes with Delta 100 & 400 films (and also TMax films which I do not use now). Even with fresh fixer and rigorous agitation I find that 5 minutes will leave a magenta base on the films.[/QUOTE]

That really surprises me. How often do you agitate in the fixer?
A lot of films have a color to it even after 5 mins of fixing. Plus x is blue-ish, tri-x is purplish and with tmax there's barely any color left, if any, after 5 mins fixing. So I'd look at your agitation as a possible culprit there.

Matus Kalisky
27-Oct-2010, 23:58
- eman -

1 agitation cycle in my case means 4 complete inversions, not 1.

I do not really understand your comment concerning the agitation. So should there be some color left after 5 minutes of fixing or should there be not?

During fixing I agitate with 4 inversions every minute.

- Brian -

(concerning the edge imprints) thanks, I see. Still it makes me wondering why they are nearly gone after development with FP4+, but not with Delta 100 & 400.

sanking
28-Oct-2010, 02:43
I do not really understand your comment concerning the agitation. So should there be some color left after 5 minutes of fixing or should there be not?

During fixing I agitate with 4 inversions every minute.



Fixing with a normal strength fixer for 5 minutes of films like TMY-2, Tmax-100, Delta 100 and Delta 400 is insufficient in my experience to remove the magenta coloration. I normally place these films in a 1% solution of sodium sulfite for 10 minutes after fixing and this completely remove the magenta color. Hypo Clear should also work fine for clearing the dye. If the magenta dye is not completely cleared it can look like uneven staining from the developer. It is best to clear the film immediately after fixing but it is possible to do so some months after processing and drying should you find it necessary to do so.

Sandy King

eman
28-Oct-2010, 05:49
That's interesting Sandy. I don't have that problem w/any films here and I do get a wide variety of them through the door.
A while back I processed a large amount of 8x10 TXP in D-76. When I looked at the stack of film before sleeving it, I noticed a strong purplish color but individually each sheet wasn't that purple. Fearing my fixer had done something odd, I re-fixed all of it (major hassle) using hypo clear both times and there wasn't any difference afterwards. :confused:
Since then I don't worry about it. 1 gallon of 1:4 film fix will do 60 rolls of film (according to Kodak) and I mark off each roll on the jug. If I go beyond that limitation, by even 1 roll, there will be a marked increase in the purplish color, but nothing uneven, and no amount of hypo clearing will fix that. Only re-fixing with fresh fix will correct that.
That leads me to a question I have which is, do you find that the amount of color left after a 5 min. fix will interfere or impede the effects/benefits of the pyrocat hd stain?
Eric

sanking
28-Oct-2010, 06:26
That's interesting Sandy. I don't have that problem w/any films here and I do get a wide variety of them through the door.
A while back I processed a large amount of 8x10 TXP in D-76. When I looked at the stack of film before sleeving it, I noticed a strong purplish color but individually each sheet wasn't that purple. Fearing my fixer had done something odd, I re-fixed all of it (major hassle) using hypo clear both times and there wasn't any difference afterwards. :confused:
Since then I don't worry about it. 1 gallon of 1:4 film fix will do 60 rolls of film (according to Kodak) and I mark off each roll on the jug. If I go beyond that limitation, by even 1 roll, there will be a marked increase in the purplish color, but nothing uneven, and no amount of hypo clearing will fix that. Only re-fixing with fresh fix will correct that.
That leads me to a question I have which is, do you find that the amount of color left after a 5 min. fix will interfere or impede the effects/benefits of the pyrocat hd stain?
Eric

Eric,

Perhaps the fixer I use contributes to the problem. It is a formula called TF-3 from the Film Developing Cookbook, but so far as I can see the strength of a working solution seems about normal compared to other commercial formulas. Also, I use the fixer as long as it tests okay with a Hypo check so perhaps in some cases it becomes too weak to remove the magenta dye, but then again five minutes is not enough in my experience to remove the magenta dye even with fresh fixer.

The magenta dye itself is not a problem for staining developers so long as it is removed evenly. This would be true with most forms of development where the developer has free flow on both sides of the film. However, with rotary processing in tubes the developer generally does not have good flow over the base side of the film and this is where you would see uneven removal of the dye.

Sandy

Ken Lee
28-Oct-2010, 06:53
I use TF-3 also, and have to remove the stain afterwards. I also tried some Photographer's Formulary TF-4, and it behaves the same way.

(TF-4 is not odorless either, but that's another matter).

On Sandy's advice, I added a few grams of Sodium Sulfite per liter, to the developer itself, and that removes the color entirely. However, it also lessens the staining properties of the developer if I understand correctly. The developer still tans, but it stains less, according to how much Sodium Sulfite you add.

I tried distilled water, thinking that the color might be from my well water, but that didn't solve the problem for me.

Matus Kalisky
28-Oct-2010, 07:00
Interesting. I have some Kodak Hypo clearing agent - I guess I will give it a try to wash the magenta dyes away after fixing. Still - I am wondering whether is any practical difference between fixing the film longer instead of shorter fixing and additional washing with Sodium Sulfite.

On the side note - once I will be getting a fresh Pyrocat HD from Photo Formulary will definitely get the TF-3 too - the Ilford fixer is quite smelly (though I am not sure wheter the TF-3 can be used for fixing the paper).

sanking
28-Oct-2010, 07:10
I use TF-3 also, and have to remove the stain afterwards. I also tried some Photographer's Formulary TF-4, and it behaves the same way.

(TF-4 is not odorless either, but that's another matter).

On Sandy's advice, I added a few grams of Sodium Sulfite per liter, to the developer itself, and that removes the color entirely. However, it also lessens the staining properties of the developer if I understand correctly. The developer still tans, but it stains less, according to how much Sodium Sulfite you add.

I tried distilled water, thinking that the color might be from my well water, but that didn't solve the problem for me.

Be very careful not to add to much sulfite to the developer itself. It will not only lessen the stain, but if you add too much it will eliminate the stain entirely. I forgot exactly how much sulfite is needed to completely kill the stain but it is a relatively small amount, about 4X-5X the amount that is in the working solution that is released from the sodium metabisulfite in the stock solution. For that reason I would strongly recommend that you remove the magenta stain in a post fixing step where you soak the film in a sulfite or hypo clean agent. This will not lessen the stain much, if any.

Sandy

Ken Lee
28-Oct-2010, 11:36
Wonderful - Thanks !!

Matus Kalisky
28-Oct-2010, 12:13
How strong should the Hypo agent be for the post-fixing clearing? How long? How much film per volume can be washed? thanks.

Jay DeFehr
28-Oct-2010, 12:53
On Sandy's advice, I added a few grams of Sodium Sulfite per liter, to the developer itself, and that removes the color entirely. However, it also lessens the staining properties of the developer if I understand correctly. The developer still tans, but it stains less, according to how much Sodium Sulfite you add.

Ken,

What you're describing is the Color Coefficient and the effect on it by the addition of sulfite to a staining developer. More sulfite = less stain until, at some concentration of sulfite there is no more stain. Ascorbic acid affects the CC in almost exactly the same way as sulfite, and when used together their effects are cumulative. To optimize a developer, sulfite, ascorbic acid, or some combination of the two are added incrementally until the level of general stain is eliminated or acceptably decreased. This is the minimum concentration of stain controlling agents, and it will vary somewhat with film and with contrast. Fresh film should always be used for testing. After the minimum concentration is found, an upper limit should be found, beyond which stain formation is unacceptably decreased. Between these two points lies a range within which other factors can be considered. With Hypercat, I used close to the minimum concentration of ascorbic acid to maximize stain, while minimizing any development contribution by the ascorbic acid. With 510-Pyro I used close to the maximum concentration of ascorbic acid to maximize development potential, and resistance to aerial oxidation for rotary and tray processing. It is also true that catechol is far more sensitive to the effects of sulfite and ascorbic acid than pyro is, which favors the choices I made for the kinds of developers I intended to make.

I use Ron Mowerey's Superfix, an extra-rapid, neutral fix, which fixes TMY in one minute, and leaves no trace of magenta after the wash. I'll never go back to standard rapid fixers.

Ken Lee
28-Oct-2010, 14:57
I use Ron Mowerey's Superfix, an extra-rapid, neutral fix, which fixes TMY in one minute, and leaves no trace of magenta after the wash. I'll never go back to standard rapid fixers.

Thanks for the explanation. I bow before all Chemists and Physicists !

Is there a formula for Ron Mowerey's Superfix - or is it a proprietary product ?

If it's proprietary, where is it available ?

eman
28-Oct-2010, 15:11
Yes perhaps that is it Sandy. I use Kodak Rapid fix. I recall reading somewhere that, at least with Edwal hypo test, that it doesn't work properly at film strength dilutions.
Fixer that should be 'bad' tests OK, so I mark off the rolls/sheets. Obviously your system works in any case! ;)

Matus, I would definitely use hypo clear for both film and prints. Film is treated just a couple minutes then you can use running wash or exchanges of still water for 5 mins., your choice. It doesn't hurt anything afaik, to go longer in hypo clear than the recommended time, but I'll defer to Sandy as to whether it will affect the stain of pyrocat negs. Use HCA once and toss it. Once at working strength it only lasts 24 hours, or when it's capacity is reached.

With PMK pyro, it was recommended NOT to use hypo clear...or at least the mention of HCA was omitted in my read of the 1st edition book, and a long wash time of 20mins - 1/2 an hour was the recommendation. That extended wash time was also considered to increase staining, which, like the after-fix bath of used developer, may or may not be the 2nd edition's recommended procedure.

Jay DeFehr
28-Oct-2010, 16:48
Thanks for the explanation. I bow before all Chemists and Physicists !

Is there a formula for Ron Mowerey's Superfix - or is it a proprietary product ?

If it's proprietary, where is it available ?

Superfix

DH2O 500ml
sodium sulfite 10g
ammonium thiocyanate 10g
thiourea 10g
ammonium thiosulfate, 60% 200ml
(acetic acid 28% 3 parts, water 8 parts) as needed to adjust pH to 7
DH2O to 1 liter

There are variants using sodium metabisulfite and/or boric acid to adjust the pH, and even to acidify the fix, which I do when using my superfine grain developer.

Ken Lee
28-Oct-2010, 17:21
Superfix

DH2O 500ml
sodium sulfite 10g
ammonium thiocyanate 10g
thiourea 10g
ammonium thiosulfate, 60% 200ml
(acetic acid 28% 3 parts, water 8 parts) as needed to adjust pH to 7
DH2O to 1 liter

There are variants using sodium metabisulfite and/or boric acid to adjust the pH, and even to acidify the fix, which I do when using my superfine grain developer.

Thanks !

Is there an affordable way to test pH ? I recall pH paper from student days, but perhaps there is something newer.

Jay DeFehr
28-Oct-2010, 20:01
Ken,

The pH test strips are good enough for this application, but not for precise work. pH 7 +/- is typical for swimming pools and spas, so the same methods for testing those systems will also work for testing neutral fixers. Besides, the exact pH of these fixers is not really critical, so measuring pH is optional, in my opinion. A good pH meter is a luxury, and priced accordingly.