Getting Clean Negs

[Gordon Wood]

I'm brand new to the forum. I must say, I'm very encouraged to see that there's a lot of activity here, indicating that LF photography may have a long life yet! I found the LF Home Page articles very helpful before making the recent plunge into 4x5, and am grateful for the guidance it has provided.

Now - to the subject at hand. Over the last several decades, I have done a lot of b&w neg processing (as well as one foray into Ektachrome). I've always been careful with cleanliness, temperature consistency, etc., but would be the first to admit that the results are often disappointing for one reason or another. Now that I'm starting to work with 4x5 (FP4 currently), I notice that tiny dust flecks embedded in the final negs are plentiful. I know this is nothing new, but I was wondering how most folks minimize it. Sadly, Digital Ice doesn't work with b&w at the scanning stage, so obviously I need to look at the processing stage.

I give the films a running water wash for 5-10 mins after fixing, then use a dunk in either Ilfotol or Photo Flo 200 and hang them in a nearly-closed file box to dry (if I close it completely, the film never dries). I recently got a film squeegee (w/rubber blades), but find it awkward to hold the film and get a consistent wipe across the whole sheet. Also, I'm concerned about scratching the emulsion. Are dust marks just something we just have to live with?

Since I'm still learning camera movements, I'll be sticking to b&w until I'm proficient. However, at some point, I'm going to want to try colour. Are there still a number of labs willing to process 4x5 chromes (I'm in Ontario, Canada)? What's the best way to package & ship the sheets to minimize the risk of damage?

Thanks in advance.
Gordon

[ic-racer]

Try mixing the Photo Flo in distilled or filtered water. Try a better place to dry. If the dust won't come off the negative, then it goat imbedded in the emulsion at the time of drying. Look for or build a better place to dry the negatives. Consider an air filter for the darkroom that runs when you are processing film. Especially during the time the film leaves the Photoflo and when it is hung up.

I'd not ever touch the wet emulsion with hands or anything else.

You should not get any dust imbedded in the emulsion. I have only had a few specs in the emulsion in from year to year. Maybe one spec per 20 to 50 sheets of 8x10. Of course, after the film is dry it can collect dust, but that dust can be removed (though it is not always easy, as it tends to re-settle, but thats another issue :) ).

One example of how to do it. Notice the HEPA air filter that sits on top of the drying cabinet. I turn it on when I start setting up for developing the film. By the time the film comes out of the drum, the air should be clean. Also, no sweaters allowed in the darkroom.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/DryingCabinet.jpg

[Gordon Wood]

Thanks ic-racer. I did consider a HEPA filter - time to consider again! I noticed something alarming yesterday that I forgot to mention. The Photo Flo tends to precipitate on the bottom of the storage tank, creating floating flakes in the solution when disturbed. May not relate to dust specks, but something I'll now have to filter out.

[jeroldharter]

Another factor to consider is your film holders. Some film holders are very dusty. The film holder should be cleaned with a camel hair brush each time film is changed. The darkslides should be dusted on both sides. Be careful not to dust the holders and dark slides and then set them down on a dusty table or cloth. Likewise, when you remove the darkslide to expose the film, be careful about dust and if necessary give it a pass with a bristle brush before re-inserting it.

If you use a changing tent, vacuum the inside and wipe it down.

You should not store Photo-Flo. Put some in a dropper and use just a few (3-5) drops in an 8x10 tray. Put the film in photo-flo one sheet at a time emulsion side up. I don't use anything to wipe the surface of the film before drying - I just hang it by the corner like the photo above. A drying cabinet is ideal, again wiped clean on the inside and supplied by filtered air.

[Nathan Potter]

The whole image generating train should be taken as suspect. If you have particulates imbedded in the emulsion chances are they come from the developing process. So look at the following steps and procedures.

Install a 5 um or less filter in your water lines. Home Depot has em.
Wear a lint free labcoat in the processing area.
Better yet install a HEPA filter in the darkroom to scrub the air continuously.
Make sure your processing gear is clean of dust prior to use. Rinse off.
Make sure the negs are clean prior to developing.
Make sure solutions are precipitate free. May need to filter them.
Use HEPA filtered drying chamber. (See icy-racer setup)

HEPAs are your friend and can really pay off in dust reduction if you can employ them effectively. While they cost a bit of money and work they payoff big time in clean negatives.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[jp]

I have also found that clean storage of film holders in the field makes a big difference in dust prevention. They can easily pick up lint from your camera bag, paper, jacket, pants, etc... I have taken to storing them in antistatic (pink) ziplock style bags when they are not in the camera or darkroom.

In the darkroom for the photoflo rinse, I use either distilled water or alcohol. Tap water with possible impurities or dissolved material is not what I want drying on it. Some people are lucky and have much cleaner tap water than I.

[jeroldharter]

...
In the darkroom for the photoflo rinse, I use either distilled water or alcohol...

Do you just substitute isopropyl alcohol for water or mix the two?

[ic-racer]

Thanks ic-racer. I did consider a HEPA filter - time to consider again! I noticed something alarming yesterday that I forgot to mention. The Photo Flo tends to precipitate on the bottom of the storage tank, creating floating flakes in the solution when disturbed. May not relate to dust specks, but something I'll now have to filter out.

You should not store diluted photoflo:eek:. Mix->use->throw out
Track down a measuring syringe or pipette.

[CG]

... The Photo Flo tends to precipitate on the bottom of the storage tank, creating floating flakes in the solution when disturbed ...

Dump the photo flo after each session. No sense adding crud after all the washing's done. Photo flo's too cheap to worry about. I just use a half capful for a small tank and more for larger tanks.

[jeroldharter]

The Photographer's Formulary version of Photo-Flo comes in a nice container such that the lid pops up and you can deposit drops of solution into a tray.

http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-25/Wetting-agent/Detail.bok

http://stores.photoformulary.com/catalog/03-0195%20Form-a-flo.jpg

[jp]

Do you just substitute isopropyl alcohol for water or mix the two?

I use one or the other. Obviously use less alcohol than water if I go that route due to the cost. It's a clean liquid and the film is dry MUCH quicker. Nice when I'm in a hurry or humidity is too high. No harm in mixing the two, just less benefit.

[Gordon Wood]

Thanks for the advice, all. I'm dumping the Photo-Flo mix right now....

[sun of sand]

i filter photo-flo through a coffee filter
taken a 4x5 undeveloped/unfixed negative and looked at it after fresh and filtered
i dont see any difference

i have issues with other things, though
smears for some reason keep fnding their way onto my negatives even with nitrile gloves careful handling using an ir device for all loading/developing/drying
no scratches but smears
have to wipe off with cotton ball while in the photo-flo and they dry perfectly
gotta stop eating chicken in the darkroom i guess but :/

[Bruce Watson]

One of the maddening things about LF is the demand that everything be clean. All the time. The camera has to be clean -- clean the inside of the bellows periodically. Clean your film holders, and once they are clean keep them clean. As in, never let them touch anything outside the darkroom other than your hands, your camera, or the inside of a zip lock bag. Really. Nothing.

Clean the darkroom. As in, clean the ceiling, walls, every surface of the cabinets (including the undersides of shelves). Clean the air -- HEPA filters work. Electostatics work too, but differently.

Keep your processing clean. Use all your chemistry one shot (yes, that includes fixer). Mix and dilute it all with steam distilled water. This is especially true of the final rinse. Never reuse a final rinse.

Clearly there are even more things you can do to eliminate dust and crud. The important thing is to learn how to think about it -- how everything you do can introduce contaminates into the system, and how your actions at every step can also make the process cleaner. It's as much a mindset as anything else.

[Gordon Wood]

Just an update. I've just finished processing another batch of negs, taking some measures beforehand to ensure cleanliness. Glad to report that the negs are spotless in terms of having no embedded crud!
Here's what I did:
-scrubbed down the processing room, including floors, walls
-put a filter in the forced-air heating register in the processing room
-got distilled water to mix up my chemicals, instead of tap water
-strained any existing solutions (ie. fixer, which was still good)
-vacuumed out all equipment
-vacuumed my clothes and an old lab coat that I use
-strained the tap water that I use for the final wash (didn't need that old t-shirt anyway & it makes a great strainer!)
-minimized distances that negs had to travel in the process (ie. optimized workflow)

Once I scanned the negs, however, I did notice tiny black hairy lines in various places when magnified. Since these weren't embedded in the emulsion, I can only assume that this was on the film when I loaded the holders in the dark bag. So...it's down to improving the cleanliness of the film handling at the beginning of the whole process.

I'm learning. I hope this helps others with the same struggle.

Gordon

[BetterSense]

If the specs are black on the print, then they represent dust that was on the film when it was exposed. Since this kind of defect cannot be removed if you print optically, I concentrate all my efforts on ensuring the negative is clean before exposure. One thing I've found is that even if the film and film holder are perfectly clean, when you slam it into a dirty camera and pull the darkslide, dust tends to get sucked out of the camera right onto the film. So now I pay more attention to keeping the inside of the camera clean and I sometimes blow it out real quick before I insert the film holder.

[rguinter]

I have also found that clean storage of film holders in the field makes a big difference in dust prevention. They can easily pick up lint from your camera bag, paper, jacket, pants, etc... I have taken to storing them in antistatic (pink) ziplock style bags when they are not in the camera or darkroom.

In the darkroom for the photoflo rinse, I use either distilled water or alcohol. Tap water with possible impurities or dissolved material is not what I want drying on it. Some people are lucky and have much cleaner tap water than I.

jp:

I like your idea of using anti-static zip lock bags. I'm just wondering where you buy yours?

I can't help the OP at all with processing cleanliness since I don't process my own film. But I can second the opinions of others about keeping film holders and changing tent clean.

I used to have problems with dust. Now my holders stay in separate zip-lock bags their entire life... only coming out of each individual bag for loading, moment of shooting, and unloading... being immediately returned to their bag and zipped closed after each step. When bags get worn I replace them promptly.

When on location shooting film I carry film holders nested (in their zip-lock bags) inside a closed cooler and remove them just before shooting. Then I return them to the cooler and close the lid during waiting periods.

Has worked wonders in controlling dust since I started this routine. And is absolutely essential if out shooting in windy or snowy weather.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

...Once I scanned the negs, however, I did notice tiny black hairy lines in various places when magnified. Since these weren't embedded in the emulsion, I can only assume that this was on the film when I loaded the holders in the dark bag. So...it's down to improving the cleanliness of the film handling at the beginning of the whole process.

I'm learning. I hope this helps others with the same struggle.

Gordon

Gordon:

Yes I too had the dark hairs on film coming from my dark bag. My solution, as many others can attest to here, was to discontinue using the bag and spring for a changing tent.

Tents are costly but so far for me a total solution to the "hairy" film problem.

Cheers. Bob G.

[Gordon Wood]

Gordon:

Yes I too had the dark hairs on film coming from my dark bag. My solution, as many others can attest to here, was to discontinue using the bag and spring for a changing tent.

Tents are costly but so far for me a total solution to the "hairy" film problem.

Cheers. Bob G.

Bob:
I agree that a tent is probably a vast improvement over a dark bag. The dark bag is hot and sweaty, too, and I find myself constantly pushing up from the inside to make room. What a pain, and no doubt the source of a lot of film/bag contact (and lint transfer).
Gordon

[Gordon Wood]

One thing I've found is that even if the film and film holder are perfectly clean, when you slam it into a dirty camera and pull the darkslide, dust tends to get sucked out of the camera right onto the film. So now I pay more attention to keeping the inside of the camera clean and I sometimes blow it out real quick before I insert the film holder.

Yes - I took the advice from an earlier post and vacuumed out the inside of the camera before heading out. Unfortunately, who knows how much floats in around the corners of the ground glass on a continuing basis, and as you say, gets sucked onto the film when you pull the darkslide.

Gordon

[jp]

jp:

I like your idea of using anti-static zip lock bags. I'm just wondering where you buy yours?

Bob G.

I bought a box of 1000 on ebay. Pink ziplock style. I can put 2 film holders in a bag. They were less than 10c each and I can reuse them a bunch of times too. 1000 is a pretty heavy pack, so consider shipping costs if you get that many. I'm set for life now.

[BetterSense]

FWIW, I recently viewed a bunch of original Ansel Adams prints at the Amon Carter museum in Fort Worth, and I noted that several prints had black specs in the sky. They were smaller than mine, probably because the originals were from 8x10 and not 4x5, but it made me more comfortable with realizing that I don't have to throw the negative away if there's a bit of dust in there.