Want to add a lens to my 4x5 arsenal

[GabrielSeri]

Hi, I wanted to figure out which lens to get next. I currently own a Schneider 90mm 5.6 Super Angulon XL and a Schneider 180mm f5.6 Macro Symmar HM. Listening to other large format photographers they recommend to get a lens that compliments the other lenses.. so my idea was to get a 240. 90, 180, 240= 90x1, x2, x3. Is that the idea? Or should I get a 300? I have a Toyo 45a.
Another question I wanted to know if there is much difference between a 75 and a 90?

Thanks

[rdenney]

Hi, I wanted to figure out which lens to get next. I currently own a Schneider 90mm 5.6 Super Angulon XL and a Schneider 180mm f5.6 Macro Symmar HM. Listening to other large format photographers they recommend to get a lens that compliments the other lenses.. so my idea was to get a 240. 90, 180, 240= 90x1, x2, x3. Is that the idea? Or should I get a 300? I have a Toyo 45a.
Another question I wanted to know if there is much difference between a 75 and a 90?

Get the lenses that fill gaps you have that emerge from what you are actually trying to do. If you are running into situations where the 90 isn't wide enough, and you are unhappy with what the 90 shows you, then trade it on something wider. If you like what the 90 does but still find it isn't wide enough for shots you want to take, then add a wider lens. If you find yourself wishing you had a longer lens than 180, then do a little thinking about how much longer, and then do a little thinking about what your camera can accommodate. No sense getting a 300 if you can't focus it close enough on your camera to make the portraits that are motivating it.

Personally, I would find a gap between 90 and 180. I don't seem to be able to live without something in the 120 range.

75 is significantly wider than 90. It's sorta like the difference between a 20 and a 24 on 35mm. If you go that way, make sure you can focus it at infinity on your camera. You may need a bag bellows, or a recessed board, or both--I'm not familiar enough with the Toyo to know.

Rick "thinking the desired pictures have to drive this decision, not the opinions of others" Denney

[Matus Kalisky]

Welcome here!, ElRooster.
Rdenney is right - the main point is what you want to shoot and what your current camera can handle. I would personally find 240 too close to 180 (that is like 56 and 75 in 35mm terms) so if I would be looking for a longer lens I would choose 300. On the wide side - yes - 75 wider than 90, though You could consider going even e bit wider or replace the 90 with the 80 mm Super Symmar. It also depends on your budget. Good modern wides are expensive.

Just for comparison I shoot with 75, 125, 240 and 400 (something like 24, 40, 75, 125 in small format) and find the steps just fine - by that is my taste. Look at your photos you took with the lenses you have - how often did you wished to longer or wider lens? Did you miss a lens in between?

BTW, how does the Macro Symmar performs at infinity?

[Mark Stahlke]

Here are some quick and dirty scans of Polaroids a made a long time ago. The tree is about 25 feet from the camera.

Pick your poison.

[Mark Stahlke]

And here is the 300mm.

[GabrielSeri]

Get the lenses that fill gaps you have that emerge from what you are actually trying to do. If you are running into situations where the 90 isn't wide enough, and you are unhappy with what the 90 shows you, then trade it on something wider. If you like what the 90 does but still find it isn't wide enough for shots you want to take, then add a wider lens. If you find yourself wishing you had a longer lens than 180, then do a little thinking about how much longer, and then do a little thinking about what your camera can accommodate. No sense getting a 300 if you can't focus it close enough on your camera to make the portraits that are motivating it.

Personally, I would find a gap between 90 and 180. I don't seem to be able to live without something in the 120 range.

75 is significantly wider than 90. It's sorta like the difference between a 20 and a 24 on 35mm. If you go that way, make sure you can focus it at infinity on your camera. You may need a bag bellows, or a recessed board, or both--I'm not familiar enough with the Toyo to know.

Rick "thinking the desired pictures have to drive this decision, not the opinions of others" Denney

Awesome idea. Thank you.

[GabrielSeri]

I'm beginning to think I wouldn't need something in 240-300 range maybe a 120 or 150. You guys really helped me, such a source of knowledge in this forum.

Thank you Matus, I like it here. :)

[GabrielSeri]

I do mostly landscape in the field type work.

The 180 is a fairly new lens I haven't tried it out at infinity yet, have been doing closer up work; walls, leaves things like that.

[Dave Hally]

I too have a Toyo 45A, although I just bought a Shen Hao, not arrived yet.
For a long time my only lens was a 180 5.6. Then I bought a 90, and then a 135. The 135 nicely fills the gap between the 90 and 180.
Fairly recently I got a Nikkor 300M. This lens is just barely usable on the 45A, for what I like to shoot, which is landscape details, such as rocks and patterns in nature. I made an extended lens board for the 300M, which helps, but the Shen Hao is supposed to have 360mm bellows draw, which should be better. Plus the Shen Hao is a little lighter. We'll see.
I tend to frame my images fairly tightly, using the whole area, If you frame your images a little looser, then you have more leeway with what lens you could use.
If you find yourself moving in closer with the 90, or further away with the 180, then get a 120 or 135. If you find yourself moving closer with the 180, then get a 240 or 300. Keep in mind that a 300 is pushing the 45A somewhat.
YMMV
Dave

[GabrielSeri]

I too have a Toyo 45A, although I just bought a Shen Hao, not arrived yet.
For a long time my only lens was a 180 5.6. Then I bought a 90, and then a 135. The 135 nicely fills the gap between the 90 and 180.
Fairly recently I got a Nikkor 300M. This lens is just barely usable on the 45A, for what I like to shoot, which is landscape details, such as rocks and patterns in nature. I made an extended lens board for the 300M, which helps, but the Shen Hao is supposed to have 360mm bellows draw, which should be better. Plus the Shen Hao is a little lighter. We'll see.
I tend to frame my images fairly tightly, using the whole area, If you frame your images a little looser, then you have more leeway with what lens you could use.
If you find yourself moving in closer with the 90, or further away with the 180, then get a 120 or 135. If you find yourself moving closer with the 180, then get a 240 or 300. Keep in mind that a 300 is pushing the 45A somewhat.
YMMV
Dave

That's really interesting because at times I do move in closer with a 90 but I move further away with the 180 and also closer with the 180 to do details. I think I am nailing down to either a 120, 135, or a 240. Most likely a 135.. I will try to rent the lens first and test out the lengths. Thanks guys and I will keep you informed.

[jeroldharter]

Another question is why not get two lenses: one between your two existing focal lengths and one longer?

If you want an intermediate lens, then be aware that the coverage of many 135mm lenses will be much more limiting than your 180. The Rodenstock Apo Sironar S is the best for a combination of small size, light weight, and maximum coverage. Therefore, it is the worst for cost as it is fairly expensive. I have a Sironar-N (Caltar) which is an excellent lens but not enough coverage for me so I don't use it much.

If you want a longer lens, I would get a 300. A 240mm lens is too close to 180. Also, most of them are Copal 3 shutters so they are relatively huge, heavy, and expensive. the Nikkor 300M is therefore very popular because it is lightweight, high quality and has huge coverage. The Toyo bellows is long enough for a 300 mm lens at infinity, but not long enough to get real close. In any case, you would have a 180mm lens for closer work.

Another issue is filter size. I don't know what your max filter size is on the two lenses you mentioned. But some of the 120mm lenses are really big and heavy so you would need large filters in that case. Sometimes, the cost of upsizing the filters or buying Lee filters is about the same as buying a lens.

A 75mm lens (I have a Caltar) is significantly wider than a 90mm lens. With a Toyo, it is very difficult to use without a recessed lens board due to bellows compression. The Toyo does not have an interchangeable bag bellows.

So if money is no object, buy a Rodenstock Apo-Sironar S 135mm and a Nikkor 300M lens, both of which take small filters and can be used with step up rings. Otherwise, buy to one of them that suits your focal length preference and go from there. Just my 2 cents.

[sun of sand]

75 does look wide compared to 90

for me 4x5 is often too square to look wide in my landscape ..either too much sky or foreground
I made a half/pano darkslide
hopefully get to try it out for real this weekend

[Ole Tjugen]

I agree with those who recommend something between the focal lengths you have, but beware of "compulsive gap filling".

I use 47 / 65 / 75 / 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 / 150 / 180 / 210 / 240 / 300 / 360 / 420mm myself...

[Bill_1856]

If you don't know what you need, then you don't need it. Save your money.

[Ole Tjugen]

I use 47 / 65 / 75 / 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 / 150 / 180 / 210 / 240 / 300 / 360 / 420mm myself...

Just realised I had forgotten the 121mm and the 165mm, as well as the 500 and the 640. And all the "inchers" - lenses with focal lengths in inches. And the casket sets I use on the Speed Graphic, which provide almost every conceivable focal length from 80mm to 750mm...

[jeroldharter]

Just realised I had forgotten the 121mm and the 165mm, as well as the 500 and the 640. And all the "inchers" - lenses with focal lengths in inches. And the casket sets I use on the Speed Graphic, which provide almost every conceivable focal length from 80mm to 750mm...

I would like to see you pack! Amazing how we amass things over the years. I am trying to re-organize my darkroom now which has been the victim of entropy for a couple years and has become completely out of hand. What to do with a box of Zone VI 20x24 paper?

Ole, I wonder if you are like me in that whenever I acquire a lens I am reluctant to part with it just in case I might need it. I have several "spare" enlarging lenses, a 210 Apo-Sironar W, a 135 Caltar, a 360mm Symmar, a 120 macro Nikkor which I have not yet used but you never know...

[Jack Dahlgren]

Lens progression is not linear as angle of view is not linear. A well spaced set of lenses would be something like the following.

Rather roughly speaking:
65mm x 1.5 = 90 mm
90mm x 1.5 = 135mm
135mm x 1.5 = 210 mm
210 mm x 1.5 = 300 mm

[rdenney]

If you don't know what you need, then you don't need it. Save your money.
There is considerable wisdom in this statement. The pictures you want to make should drive this decision.

I have a lot of lenses, but each one was bought for a specific purpose.

Rick "not that far behind Ole with: 47, 65, 90, 121, 127, 150, 180, 210, 8-1/2", 240, and 12", but not all set up for the same camera, and certainly not all carried at once" Denney

[Mark Stahlke]

If you're looking for something in between your 90mm and 180mm, allow me to suggest the Fuji CMW 125/5.6. It's image circle is only 4mm smaller than the Apo-Sironar S 135mm and, to my eye, 125mm is a better fit between 90mm and 180mm.

[Matus Kalisky]

If you're looking for something in between your 90mm and 180mm, allow me to suggest the Fuji CMW 125/5.6. It's image circle is only 4mm smaller than the Apo-Sironar S 135mm and, to my eye, 125mm is a better fit between 90mm and 180mm.

I can only second that advice. I have this lens and it is very good performer - at least as good as the Fujinon A 240 (have that one too). Hard to find used though. Should you be tight on budget than have a look at older Fujinon W lenses (single coated are marked inside the filter ring and multi coated outside on the lens barrel) - the single coated have large coverage and can be had for very reasonable money.

[GabrielSeri]

I mostly do black and white not really a chromes guy. Would an older single coat lens be better investment with great results? I'm kind of running out of my budget.

[Jack Dahlgren]

I mostly do black and white not really a chromes guy. Would an older single coat lens be better investment with great results? I'm kind of running out of my budget.

Sure. That is a good way to get started. Coatings help with contrast and flare, so shade the lens if possible.

[rdenney]

I mostly do black and white not really a chromes guy. Would an older single coat lens be better investment with great results? I'm kind of running out of my budget.

Yes.

You may get just a touch more flare than with a multi-coated lens. Most people would find that at least no problem, if not even advantageous. I have both in my bag, and the number of coatings has no role in the choices I make.

In my collection and work, examples abound of why it doesn't matter.

If you decide you need a longer lens than your 180, an Ilex Paragon or Ilex-Calumet Caltar would be an inexpensive choice at 8-1/2", 10", and 12". These sell in the coupla hudred range in good condition. The Ilex shutter is fine, especially for black and white. Mine are sharp. If you decide on a 120/121, an older Super Angulon f/8 will be more fun than a plasmat design, because it will have much greater coverage. I can just about stand my 121/8 SA on edge with 4x5. A Calumet Caltar II-N would be just as good (it's a Rodenstock Grandagon).

Rick "at f/22, lens design ain't that important, and for black and white, coatings ain't that important" Denney

[Sirius Glass]

I mostly do black and white not really a chromes guy. Would an older single coat lens be better investment with great results? I'm kind of running out of my budget.

Before coatings became available, lenses were designed to minimize chromatic dispersion because if the chromatic dispersion was not corrected the images would not be sharply focused [larger blur circle over the visual range]. Use a lens hood especially if the sun/light source is forward of the film plane [ < 90º from line of sight].

Steve

[aduncanson]

Sirius, Dispersion gives rise to chromatic aberration, the inability to focus different colors of light at the same point, seen as color fringing or loss of resolution in black and white. Lens coatings minimize reflections at glass-air interfaces and so reduce lens flare, and improve overall contrast. Single layer coatings are optimized for one wavelength (but do work over a range of wavelengths.) Multilayer coatings are more effective, particularly at reducing flare over a wider range of wavelengths.

[Sirius Glass]

Sirius, Dispersion gives rise to chromatic aberration, the inability to focus different colors of light at the same point, seen as color fringing or loss of resolution in black and white. Lens coatings minimize reflections at glass-air interfaces and so reduce lens flare, and improve overall contrast. Single layer coatings are optimized for one wavelength (but do work over a range of wavelengths.) Multilayer coatings are more effective, particularly at reducing flare over a wider range of wavelengths.

Correct. Coatings are for cutting surface reflections.

My point was that the chromatic aberration was corrected before coatings were available and before panchromatic color films were available, because, if uncorrected, the orthochromatic films would have had blurred images.

Steve